8 Out Of 10, Katz?

0:01Hello and welcome to the Media Club. I'm Scott Bryan. In the club today, in Cats Leaves Channel 4, the BBC has announced up to 2 ,000 job cuts. Broadcast magazine's Rebecca Cooney will be talking about a big week in TV. Also on the show, it's a rare podcast to TV journey, except the podcast was never finished. TV director Simon Draper joins us to talk about this new documentary and what it says about the jobs crisis facing the TV industry. All of that, plus Gary Neville buys those bloody YouTubers, Trump's libel campaign runs aground, and in the Audio Network Media Quiz, we rise above the politics.

0:38That's all happening in this week's edition of the Media Club. Come on in.

0:46So as you can probably tell, I'm not Matt Deegan. I am filling in for him because he's back next week, but I am still here with some of the finest media minds to talk about this week's media news. Rebecca Cooney who is the Insight Editor at Broadcast Magazine. Big week for you. Yeah stuff's been going on. It's been busy. So what has been going on? So we've had, I mean first I'm going to do a quick plug for our indie survey. For everybody else it's not been the big thing of the week but for me. So we do a big survey of all of the indies or as many of the indies in the industry as we can and that came out on Monday and then since then we've had 2 ,000 job cuts at the BBC which we're going to talk about later.

1:23And also Ian Katz today, the director of content, sorry, content chief at Channel 4 has resigned. So a quiet day then. Yeah, nothing going on. Just been a really quiet, relaxing, chilled week. Very chill, very chill. So yeah, some stuff. And then on top of all of that stuff, we have to ask for your recommendation of a person to join the media club as sort of someone who deserves a bit more recognition. I don't know about more recognition, because I think they have plenty of recognition, but I was trying to think, oh, who's had a good media week? And like, as you can tell from the answers that I've given, nobody, nobody's not been good.

1:56And then I hit upon the Pope. The Pope's had a really good media week. I mean, that is, I mean, it's an easy address to send the invitation to. Yes. The Pope, the Vatican, in you go. Yes, indeed. Why the Pope? So if people haven't been following this, essentially the Pope criticised Trump. Trump came out with a kind of massive screed on his truth social. And then somebody tweeted a picture of Donald Trump sort of appearing to sort of place his hand benevolently on the head of a man who I think was supposed to represent some kind of everyman, American everyman, but also kind of look like Jeffrey Epstein, if we're honest.

2:34This was like an AI generated image. And everyone, you pictured yourself as Jesus there. That's a bit weird, which obviously wasn't great for Trump's fan base. and so he tried to walk it back and say oh no no no that's me as a doctor that's what my doctor looks like which has been just a very fun week to be on the internet you know social media platforms like Twitter are not what they used to be but there have been a lot of jokes on sort of threads and blue sky that have just been a lot of fun I mean I think the word fun is a very loose word isn't it in terms of social media generally thank you for your recommendation the invitation to the Pope will be in the post also joining us for our Media Club debut is the BAFTA winning documentary director Simon Draper.

3:17Hello. Lovely for you to be with us and also to continue along with the format. Do you have someone that you would like to recommend to the media club as well? Yes. So my offering. Yeah. This evening or today is Michael Barrymore. OK. All right. Join it. Let him come in. Let him come in. To Michael Barrymore. That's range. Yeah. Exactly. And I'll tell you why. I've now realised he's got like three and a half million followers on TikTok and it seems to be all he does is go to supermarkets and cafes and bakeries and fill his basket with incredibly lovely really highly calorific food and review them, eat them and then just does that over and over again doesn't seem to put on any weight everyone loves him he's just bought a new house in Devon and there were crowds of people mobbing him, telling him how amazing he was.

4:12And I just thought to myself, I mean, yeah, the Pope and Trump is something, but Barrymore back in our world, that's something else. And apparently living the life. Living the life. People love him. Yeah, so I just thought it was quite interesting. And also interesting in the fact that he'll obviously never be on broadcast TV again. Well, you'd imagine not, but then equally, if people, three and a half million people are watching, I don't know if they watch, but are engaging in his content, maybe that's part of what we'll talk about later is that is the modern world. So equally, there's nothing, that doesn't seem as crazy as anything else that you watch.

4:50So yeah, I mean, I'm nothing against Michael Barrymore, but I didn't think I'd ever see him really again. And now I realise he's huge. So he's my choice. He has to be in, I'm afraid, but he'll do good cakes and bring some lovely pastries. I don't know why that tickled me. In a moment, we'll be talking about how Ian Katz is off. That's after the break.

5:14Welcome back to the Media Club. It's been a big week for the media so far, starting with Channel 4's content chief, Ian Katz, leaving. I mean, Rebecca, we've sort of had the hint that he has been leaving for quite a while. I mean, I guess, what did he announce today? So, yeah, as you say, there's been an expectation that he's going to go. Last year, Alex Mahon, who appointed him, said that she would be stepping down and historically every single new chief executive of Channel 4 has appointed a new content chief and was wanting to bring their own person in. So I think there was an expectation that that would be the same, which is obviously, that's been a weird position for him to be in for the last, what, eight, nine months.

5:51It's very, very strange. Priya Dogra has started. This is the new chief executive. And yeah, today he's announced he's going to be stepping down. He'll be leaving in October, I believe. So there's a little bit of time still, but. And I mean, I was reading with interest the kind of statement that they had from Channel 4's press office. And they had some stats saying that streaming has increased from 20 % to 50 % of all Channel 4 viewing. There's a lot of people under the age of 34 now watching. And then they listed some of the shows and successes that they've had. So Virgin Island, Dirty Business, A Woman of Substance, Secret Genius and The Piano.

6:26I mean, I'm sort of intrigued by that. I mean, do you think, what will his legacy be? Do you think that there have been enough surefire hits for Channel 4 in that time? that's a tricky one and I'm so delighted to have this opportunity to get the press office to ring my uh editor furious tomorrow I'm really looking forward to that um no I think there is a sense that you know within channel four I think they've been very happy with some of the hits they've had like you say there have been some shows that have done incredibly well things like Virgin Island kind of and initially and have done well online right and there's something about that the traditional overnights are less and less important because you know Virgin Island came out it didn't did that well everyone sort of wrote it off and it just partly because it did well um on social media and that was bringing people back to the platforms to watch it that it did build momentum across its run and did go on to do very very well so there have been sort of hits that kind of people haven't expected i think there is a little bit of a sense and this is something that um i think um chris uh curtis my editor is putting a piece out tomorrow about this kind of looking back over over his kind of uh over cats his tenure i think there's a sense of yes there were some hits there weren't necessarily the really big era defining kind of this is a show that is emblematic of this period of channel four there's nothing that was like kind of bake off or or you know what's his equivalent of the traitors or or anything like that or you know i think previously we had things like you know channel four kind of bringing in the sort of fixed rig um revolution in a big way and that there's not there's a sense that a lot of shows have done quite well a lot of shows you know interesting that you named there that were in the statement they're quite recent a woman of substance has literally just started yeah like he's been there nine years and that's not to say he's had nothing else but it is an odd choice for them to put that in the statement there definitely have been shows that have done well that have performed very well and that have been bold and interesting commissions like virgin island is such a channel four commission right no one else is making that and it was sort of having a conversation that we're kind of sort of we're talking about how young people are dealing with sex and are approaching sex and you know that is part of Channel 4's remit to push those boundaries and do things a bit differently.

8:31Equally, you had like the Bonnie Blue documentary, which was very controversial. No one else except Channel 4's doing that. But there haven't been anything that's been like a really runaway hit in quite the same way in his tenure. It is possible to argue. I think there's a vocal group of indies that kind of perhaps would be saying he hasn't had any hits at all. I think he might find that quite unfair and would point to some of these kind of these shows that have done very well. So I think there's probably a more nuanced take, but I think perhaps the relationship with Indies has been a little bit strained of late, let's say.

9:02Who would you sort of predict could take over this role? Because, you know, we've had quite a lot of changeover in British broadcasting over the course of the last few weeks. I mean, is there anyone clear as a front runner, do you think? No, I know there's a few people that have told me in confidence that they would like to go for it and I think would be interesting choices. but yes I you know I think we've also had a lot of change at the top of the BBC with kind of sort of Fiona Campbell stepping up and that's leaving sort of the head of factual role open so you know it's a possibility that some of the people that are in the mix there sort of you know Poppy Dixon, Fasmus Alaria, people like that maybe could be considered but yeah I think it's quite early for sort of runners and riders I think but there's definitely people eyeing it.

9:43What I find fascinating is that I was going to ask you in your capacity as a journalist and that sort of picking up on the vibes of things. Do you feel that there's a sense that in terms of, you know, finding a replacement for people, it's just sort of adding to the whole nothing's really working that well as a general sort of you're suggesting that, you know, there haven't been hits or people have got sort of not you are suggesting there may be criticism or things, you know, that sort of are thrown out. him. I'm really curious to know, does anyone think long term? In your experience, or people just want to replace someone new because ultimately, like football managers, it's like a new sort of sense of someone new, someone bright, someone's going to come in and just make it feel slightly more invigorated.

10:29I think there's a sense with this job in particular that obviously Ian Katz had come from, he was a newspaper journalist to start with, and then he was the editor of Newsnight, and I very much want to believe that there is a career out there for print journalists in other fields. I want them to do well. That's, you know, but I do think there's a bit of a sense of that's quite a big job to hand to somebody. And not, sorry, that sounds really passionate. What I mean is that's quite a wide, it's a remit that's much wider than news and current affairs, right? That you've got your drama, you've got your sort of entertainment stuff as well.

11:01Like he's coming out, he came in from quite a narrow focus to this massive broad focus and wasn't necessarily kind of part of the industry in the same way, like kind of news journalism. they are obviously TV news journalists are part of the industry but they are slightly off to one side and ring-fenced and I wonder if there's a sense that perhaps actually for that kind of long term thinking maybe we want somebody that's more embedded in the industry that's got more of a kind of track record with indies. Or alternatively you do the Google, you know that. Yes, yeah or we could just have somebody from Google.

11:31This is the interesting thing, is it? A complete downside. I think Channel 4 have always sort of prided themselves on going we do things slightly differently and I'm not sure how people might think of them now but that's my instinct and you think this is an opportunity to, I don't know, to make a statement or do something along those lines, I feel that the time is ripe to do stuff like that, isn't it? Because people are much more sort of expecting or accommodating of slightly left-field thinking, maybe. But I don't have to run these things, so I could say that. Elsewhere, we had, sadly, some big cuts at the BBC announced this week.

12:10had been rumoured of course for a while since the BBC annual plan that they were going to have to make some cutbacks. But this week we found more specific details and we had an announcement from the interim Director-General Rodri Telfon-Davies. Rebecca, what were we told? So there's going to be between 1 ,800 and 2 ,000 job cuts as part of attempts to save 10 % of the budget over the next three years, which is, I mean, that's a lot. It's a huge organisation. That is a lot of jobs. That's a lot of money that's got to be saved. It's a big challenge. And, you know, essentially the content hasn't been ring fenced.

12:43People from commissioning teams are going to go as well. It's not just the case that it's kind of back office people or it's sort of it's going to be across the organisation. And that's just really grim and depressing. I think there's no way around that. It's just miserable. What's your take on it? Do you think it's very much like with Matt Britton coming in as director general? It's a move of like, let's get the bad news out of the way. And then when Matt can come in, he can take it in his own direction. Or do you think it's just a reflection of the decline of maybe people paying for the licence fee?

13:14Because the BBC has noted that there has been fewer people paying towards it or maybe a combination of both. I think possibly both. You've got to feel sorry for Rodney Telfand-Davis, haven't you? Shortest stint of director general, just to say that a lot of people are being fired. Yes, yeah. Thanks, Tim. Hi, Matt. Here's a clean slate. Like that is that is rough. I think there is something here about we've got to work out how the BBC is getting funded. that the license fee, I think there's increasingly a feeling that it's just not working because, as you say, a lot of people aren't paying it. They are saying that kind of if more people were paying it, we'd be doing better and they're sort of aware of people using their services and not paying it and there's a limited amount they can do to enforce it.

13:51And, you know, there have been things like kind of, you know, the sort of back in the day, the license fee for early people was covered by the government and now, you know, the free license fee isn't happening for older people and the BBC's had to take that cost on as well. They are trying to operate on a smaller and smaller budget as things are getting more and more expensive. And this is what Tuffin Davies was saying. He was just like, well, you know, essentially the money going out isn't matching the money coming in. So we've got to cut our cloth accordingly. And Simon, we were, I mean, we'll speak about your documentary in a moment, but you were fantastic, I think, about being transparent about the difficulties of filmmaking in the current climate.

14:28I mean, what's your feeling from these cuts this week? I mean, it's just as a TV maker that must be quite depressing news to hear. I'm not really depressed by it. I just sort of was expecting it. And also, I think it's just, unfortunately, it's realistic. I hadn't actually realised about the people not paying for the licence fee. That didn't even cross my mind. So people, how do they know that? I mean, how do you gauge that? I'm not sure, but I think they're sort of saying it's in the 80s, 80 % are paying. And they're saying if it could move up into the 90s, that would solve a whole lot of our funding problems.

14:59That's interesting. I was hearing a documentary. So I was hearing an interview this week with with Roger, who said that basically 94 percent of people are actually engaging with the BBC, but only 80 percent of people are actually paying for it. I mean, we've discussed this on the podcast before, but arguably the way in which people pay for the BBC probably has to be updated. Now, probably come through charter renewal. So, for example, you don't pay if you go onto the BBC website for BBC News. You don't pay if you, I think, don't quote me, listen or watch some pre-recorded shows on some platforms.

15:31But if you're watching programs live, then you do. And I think obviously that leads to questions of, well, if you're watching a Netflix show and that's live, therefore you should be paying a TV license. I think there are some people who might feel that they shouldn't be obliged to pay because they're not using BBC content, but they might be actually watching content on a laptop elsewhere. so I think it's the ongoing challenge and maybe this is why I'm thinking the BBC is using this as a bit of leverage to highlight look unless the way in which you charge us is going to be updated for modern times then more and more people are not going to be paying for their licensing and I just want to clarify obviously it's devastating news for people individually but what I meant was I think the idea that this hasn't been on the cards is just not true and working inside with having to pitch ideas and get commissions and deal with commissioners and talk about budgets, it's a constant battle to try and be asked to make the same thing slightly better if you could for cheaper.

16:34That's all you hear. That's all that happens. So you sort of, yeah, I'm not surprised basically that they have had to do something as radical as this. But clearly, yeah, as an individual personal story, it's devastating. Yeah. Yeah. And so my colleague, Ellie Kahn, did write a piece in the latest edition of Broadcast, which is out today, I think, actually, that piece, sort of looking at what are the different funding mechanisms? What are the different possibilities we could have? And they do range because, yeah, like you're saying, that there are a lot of services you can use that there seems to be a bit of a loophole around that, that, OK, perhaps you could, you know, say there's a school of thought, I think, British Broadcasting Challenge, which is kind of a group supporting the PSBs, is saying, well, what if you had, you know, if you have something in your home that you can use?

17:17you can pick up audio visual signal on so that's that's a smartphone that's a tablet as a connection to the internet you know you should be paying the license fee i don't know if they're going to go down that route to be honest but you know there's i think potentially the bbc would quite like to see a situation where more of that content like netflix potentially if you're accessing you know um itvx or channel 4 streaming should you be paying the license fee because you know if you were turning on the tv and just watching channel 4 you'd still be having to pay your license fee so should that be closed up?

17:45Can I ask an annoying question? Yeah. Just because you're a friend of mine. I wouldn't normally know who to ask this. What do other countries who have public service broadcasting, do they have, how do they get their dosh? This is where I get to be a real geek. Okay. In some countries, I think in the Nordics, they do it as a kind of a broadband levy. And then that's what's been touted as a possible future model. But the challenge is at the moment is that you need to have kind of fast home broadband. And then it's still the case of, well could the government still make changes to that levy and it's i mean even though the license fee doesn't necessarily always work it still kind of factors in as the least worst option really so there's the nordic option in some other countries i mean they don't have like license fees at all it's all from voluntary contributions or twitching to a subscription model i think obviously the the difference here in the uk is that the bbc has such a central role in public life whilst in other countries it's still something that people find that they only pay for voluntarily yeah it's also the bbc kind of invented the market it operates in right we got the bbc and it you know that became a market for tv and we worked out how to fund that um so yeah it is an interesting one and no doubt we'll be talking about it forever on this uh podcast along with uh cuts to potential services but yes obviously a very sad time um for those who work for the bbc um speaking of bbc actually and we were sort of alluding to it slightly earlier uh bbc's first youtube native documentary channel has launched uh the deep watch channel was the first output uh with youtube announced in january uh rebecca you were on with documentary producer ben zand uh he wrote a piece on these uh sub stack which is the most modern sentence imaginable um what did he say so his argument was essentially this is great but is it going to work that he was kind of saying well his model is to make documentaries and put them out on YouTube and he was kind of saying welcome to the fold this is great the more of this we get brilliant but his concern is essentially that because the BBC is approaching this as a sort of slightly old school commissioning situation where they're saying we're going to have these 20 films and we're going to get 20 different production companies and they're all going to make different productions he's saying YouTube channels work when they have a set identity they build a relationship with an audience based on what's appearing on screen and that isn't going to work if you've got kind of production company a making one one show and then the next episode is made by production company b and the next one's made by production company c um i kind of i mean listen ben knows a lot more about this than me i would soften it a little bit by saying well we do have things like panorama and dispatches that are sort of documentary strands that do have an identity um that appear on mainstream tv and are all made by different production companies um but they're still kind of you know together under that label and we understand what we mean by that so whether or not the bbc could take something from that um and ensure that there's kind of a consistent visual identity or a consistent sort of editorial identity perhaps that could work um but yeah he was also sort of saying that the value is coming from the people who are on the on the channels already um and he made a really interesting point about actually what we should be doing is supporting some of the creators that already exist on YouTube and are doing these really interesting little documentaries or public service stuff that would fit in the public service remit like explaining politics or explaining history or you know stuff that actually it's a short for modern version or even a medium for modern version of the sort of thing the BBC would be doing and his argument is that we should set up a fund a bit like the kind of independent film fund to the BFI's independent film fund to just fund these creators and just give them money to go and make that content And that would create a sort of healthier media environment, one where there was sort of, you know, recognised trusted people.

21:36So you would sort of be able to steer away from misinformation a little bit more. And I think it's a really cool, really interesting idea. How would it be funded? Not clear. It's just coming from public funding in the same way the BFI does. Yeah. Simon, as a sort of documentary maker, I mean, you've also done Ryland and Rob Rinter's Grand Tour, which is fantastic. along with of course Miriam Margulies and other documentaries too how much are you paying attention to YouTube and as a sort of place to make content for? A lot now actually in the last few years it's felt more exciting than ever to sort of think about that as the way to not just pitch ideas but make something forget about the process and commissioning process and suddenly just start to try and make something that would eventually, the target would be putting on YouTube.

22:30So I'm sort of currently quite conscious of it and also wanting to just throw everything into that, if I'm honest, because I think it's, for me personally, it's an exciting period and one that perhaps I was blinkered by slightly and I've got kids and they watch it and that's all they do and I sort of wrongly just judged it as a sort of something that wasn't necessarily for me or wasn't for, you know what I mean? Just those snap decisions where you go, well, I'm not interested, I can't be bothered, I don't want to learn about it, let's move on. And obviously that's ridiculous. And I think I'm now very excited by the idea of it.

23:08So is it kind of like one of the main driving factors is just basically time? Like you can film something, get an idea and then put it on YouTube quite quickly, whilst before you would have to go through BBC or any other channel commissioners to essentially give you the funding. Yeah, and I think there's real advantages to both. I just feel like the obstacles or the reasons to not do something are greater with the commissioning processes and that's not a sort of radical thing to say. It's fairly obvious. You can't just go off and do your thing. You need to go and get somebody to back you and to fund it and do all those different things.

23:47But yeah, I think it's felt liberating and that feeling is the one that I haven't felt for a while. It's the one I want to sort of pursue. But also I think becoming increasingly blurry because this isn't a documentary, but it was announced earlier this week that TFI Friday is coming back, but not in a conventional sense. Basically, it's a YouTube series that Chris Evans has done on his Virgin Radio show. It's now going to be shown on Shona Forlinia, which for me is the most roundabout sentence I think I've ever said in my entire life about how television works but it does show that actually it can go the other way you can make something on YouTube but then having to end up on traditional linear I just think that's a good example of it's risk people are unprepared to take are things like if that was pitched as we're going to bring TFI Friday back I imagine it has been before that would probably never happen so you sort of circumvent that by doing it yourself off and obviously he was able to do it and fund it and the rest of it and get the the numbers to to to sort of again to to sort of justify it and then it's a fairly easy decision to sort of channel four to think well you've done all the hard work let's just put it out you know it sort of feels like a much more robust and interesting way and a clever way to do things doesn't it kind of a backdoor pilot isn't it people are discussing yeah yeah exactly exactly um we should move on very quickly to my favourite subject, football, which I know loads about.

25:11So prepare yourself. Gary Neville's company The Overlap has acquired two YouTube channels, speaking of YouTube of course. These are the United stand and that's football. I mean it's a bit controversial because Gary Neville said once on X that he would not invite Goldbridge onto the lap due to the way they spoke about footballers. Rebecca, please explain what's going on here. Thank you so much for this opportunity, Scott. I really appreciate it. I mean, I think my understanding is that the big issue here is that Neville used to play for Man U and the guys that he's acquired have previously been quite rude about Manchester United.

25:47But I mean, my husband's a Manchester United fan and has been quite rude about Manchester United fairly regularly recently. So they're doing better now, I think. He seems happier, less miserable. There is just this sense that this is the way it's going, that actually, you know, as we were saying before about Ben Zan's point about it's about building an audience, building a connection. If you can acquire this YouTube channel that has this audience, that has this connection. And frankly, a bit of controversy doesn't damage you algorithmically in terms of, you know, people finding you, people reacting, people engaging with your content, proving you've got an audience there.

26:18If you're controversial, that's, you know, that's how you do well. So I think, you know, for all he might personally have an issue with some of the things they've said, I think it's a savvy business move. Simon, are you across the overlap of football-based content? very much your back. You've lucked out because I'm a massive football fan. Okay, good. I can't tell sarcasm due to my autism. No, no, no. No idea. Sorry, sorry, no. I wasn't being sarcastic. Sorry, that's unhelpful. You have lucked out. I really love football. Thank you. Well, actually, lucked out might be a bit over-rigging it. I was genuinely thanking you for the opportunity.

26:51Thank you very much, Rebecca. Who knows what's happening now? No, I'm being sincere. I do like football. I'm aware of the overlap because they've just promoted so much and I'm aware of the Mark Goldbridge Man United podcast and he's actually done quite in my opinion he's done quite a good job of bringing other football fans into his onto his podcast because he's quite reasonable and comes up with quite clever analysis and isn't just sort of you know going for the sort of lowest hanging fruit by sort of being controversial and being a bit of a dick is quite a savvy guy and I think it's a business move quite clearly.

27:30Again, using my son as an example who's a massive football fan, it's how he gets his opinions and that's how, I mean, rightly or wrongly, that's how his mates get their opinions and so, yeah, it makes a lot of sense and Gary Neville's not daft, is he? So, certainly not. See, that's me adding as if I know football. Yeah, you can say certainly not and I don't have to know much more. Yeah. Shush. He's on Dragon's Den. No, exactly. See you in a minute. We'll be back after this.

28:08Hello, Media Club listeners. Patrick here from Podcast Discovery, the podcast marketing company, where this week we've been thinking about cross-promo. Turns out you're pretty good at this podcasting game and you've ended up with all of these downloads. More downloads than you could ever reasonably monetise. but you still want more. So what to do? Well, why not try putting those downloads to work by speaking to us about trailer swaps, bringing your show to a whole new world of potential listeners. Get in touch at podcastdiscovery.com. That's podcastdiscovery.com. If Gary Neville has convinced you that YouTube is the future of media and you're ready to start to build your own empire, then you should really contact Podshop Studios.

28:51it's where we record the media club every week each studio has its own distinct look and feel fully designed and fully equipped for broadcast quality video recording whether you're launching a flagship podcast or shooting your very first youtube doc there's a set for every format check out the full range at podshop online.co.uk and they're offering media club listeners 25 off your first booking so you can see it for yourself use the code media club that's all one word in caps lock to get 25 % off at podshoponline.co.uk. Welcome back to the Media Club. I'm Scott Bryan, sitting in for Matt Deegan this week.

29:30There's a few more stories. Of course, it has been a busy week. A US court has dismissed Donald Trump's lawsuit against the Wall Street Journal. It's the latest in a string of legal setbacks for the president's attempts to use the courts against the press and a shot in the arm for the BBC's own attempts to get its own case dismissed. The Telegraph sale has finally, finally, finally been done. Culture Secretary Lisa Nandy has cleared Axel Springer's takeover bid, ending years of uncertainty that began when Redbird's IMI's attempt collapsed. Ofcom still has oversight, though. And the Advertising Standards Authority has ruled against Lidl and Iceland over their recent Instagram ads.

30:11The regulator found the ads had breached rules intended to limit junk food marketing to children. A reminder that social media is very much in the scope for the ASA, even when the targeting is meant to be adult only. Links to all of our stories are available on themediaclub.com, where you can also find our briefed newsletter. That's where we round up all the other media podcasts and what they are all talking about. You can find that at themediaclub.com. Simon and Rebecca are still here with me. Simon, let's talk about your new fabulous documentary that aired on the BBC on Tuesday, Monday. So the days of the week this week have been merged into one.

30:50Miriam Margulies made me, me. This film has really resonated with quite a lot of people. I guess people were in because of Miriam Margulies, perhaps watching it. And then it's about the friendship that you had with her throughout that really comes through. And I think for a lot of people, it sort of reflects concerns around the TV industry at the time which you speak so eloquently about. I'm intrigued, though, because how did the documentary come about? Because it feels like, to me, a bit like an accidental one, at least from watching it from the start. Yeah, no, completely. I mean, I was out of work and I went for a pint with my mate who's an editor, a genius editor, who sat me down.

31:31And before I could sort of finish my first sentence of moaning about what was I going to do, he said, well, it's staring at you the fact, you know, Miriam Margulies. she's a sort of I'd like to say she's a friend I think she'd say the same I've known her for sort of 10 years working with her on various documentaries and he just said just contact her and see if she wants to do a podcast she's brilliantly eloquent hilarious controversial everyone loves or hates her she needs to be doing her own podcast series so I phoned her up she was in Tuscany and she said darling I absolutely can't think of anything worse and I and I thought it's a very Miriam thing to say very Miriam But also I was slightly desperate that she needed to say yes.

32:13So I just said, as a favour to me, would you consider it? And overnight she did. And she said, come around tomorrow and we can discuss it. And I decided to film my experience. And in that case, the journey, my first journey there, because every time you're with Miriam, she's one of those characters that is entertaining. Doesn't matter what she does. And I just thought, well, I'll film my experience and I may use some clips in social media to promote the podcast series. So why don't I just start doing it? Because it felt wrong not to. And that was the first almost the first 10 minutes of the of the doc.

32:55In the end, Green Jones, the editor, who none of this would have happened without him, just said, just keep going. And so I just kept filming and turning up. and eventually we tried to do some podcasts. So when you say it's accidental, you're right. But actually, weirdly, maybe it's instinct to give ourselves some credibility a little bit. I think I potentially saw something else that might happen in it, and so why not film it as well? And you just don't know what will turn out with Miriam. So thank goodness I did. He's a lovely director called Simon Draper, and I'm extremely fond of him. Are you filming me now?

33:35I thought I'd fill my rub with your ice cream. Do you mind? No, no. It could be quite fun. He's coming to lunch and, you know, I asked him to buy the ice cream, but I am going to pay for it. Lots of me, right? Bye-bye. Oh, bless her. She's got cancer. It's just awful. I don't know how people, you know, deal with it. In fact, I've got so many friends with cancer and I'm spending all my time, you know, either comforting the relatives after they've died or talking to them and saying they're not going to die. But, you know, sometimes they do. Yeah. Are you all right? Well, look at my breasts. Oh, OK.

34:18Let's go in. Because I've got a new bra. I went to Rigby at Bella. I mean, there is that element of unpredictability with her, for sure. But one thing I think that really comes through is this sort of level of surprising intimacy that you had with her. just I guess from the fact that you've been friends for quite a long time. It's also the fact that a lot of it was shot on an iPhone or just not really with that much heavy equipment. The whole thing is shot on a phone. The whole thing. Quite a surprise for like a 9pm BBC One show. But obviously you don't notice it being shot on an iPhone. No. One person on X, in fact, almost the only person I've found, and obviously you remember the one that criticises it.

35:03Always. Hilariously, I would read it out, but I don't want to give him the attention. Hilariously just went, well, this bloke said he can't find any work, and I'm not surprised because this is rubbish. And the camera work is awful. And you think, I'm so glad I didn't want you as a sort of audience anyway. Do you know what I mean? But anyway, yeah, it's all shot on the phone. All shot on the phone. Because I didn't have a commission or a budget or a crew, and I didn't necessarily need a crew, but I didn't think that should stop trying to do something if I could film on my phone just to see. Because bearing in mind, I didn't ever foresee this being a documentary that might actually be bought or commissioned or taken up.

35:48But like I was saying to you earlier, I think the idea that sort of the days of waiting for permission are going and the idea of like people not being able to create their own things have gone and clearly that's why we all watch things on YouTube and various other sort of platforms. So I didn't have any excuse really. You've got a phone in your pocket and you can film on it. Get yourself out there and start doing it. What do you think you learned about Miriam from spending so much time with her? Well, I've done stuff with her before but what happens is normally with crews and things and you block in days and you have a certain number of filming days and you have to sort of navigate her vulnerability.

36:27She's an elderly lady who's very open about that. And she has sort of, you know, she's inhibited with her movement and she's sort of, you know, she's not able to do things. And so what used to happen is we'd have to factor those things in to your filming. and what I've learnt really more from her is how she's a sort of a brilliant person who speaks her mind and she's got no filter. I knew that already but I didn't quite realise how perhaps vulnerable she is as well as she gets older and I was sort of just questioning whether I want to sort of, I don't want that to sound as if she's frail and can't do anything.

37:13It's more like you don't film those bits because by the time she's prepared and the crew turned up, she's sort of already up and dressed and had a breakfast. And those sort of things happen. Do you know what I mean? So you sort of see a side of her that is literally like unfiltered. There's nowhere, you know, sort of for her to sort of protect herself and sort of cover up or anything. So, yeah, I think I found her more vulnerable than I was expecting. but in a really open way, in a really positive way. And I think one of the surprises I had from watching is how open you are throughout the documentary.

37:48Like at one moment you talk about how, because of the difficulties within the TV industry, you were applying for a job at Heathrow, essentially working sort of their side, and that didn't work out in terms of getting that job. I mean, I'm not joking. I applied for 60 jobs, more than 60 jobs, and everything from delivery drivers to working in pubs. And, you know, I walked into a pub and they were advertising for bar staff. And I walked in and the guy was like, what experience do you have? And I said, I slightly lied. But years ago, I did work in a bar. And I said, I can work in a bar. And I said, I'm personable.

38:20He went, no. And I went, OK, I'll work for free. He went, no. I mean, it was really quite shocking. And, you know, I'm older and I'm perhaps not the sort of demographic maybe they were wanting. But the Heathrow thing was, well, surely I can get it. I mean, not as in there must be, there's a lot of jobs at Heathrow Airport. This is a bit of a banker. But yeah, I suppose it was interesting. Again, you know, filming my experiences of doing that at the time, I just thought, well, this is part of this journey that I don't know where it's going to end. So let's film it. And it was only in hindsight with a bit of distance that people have said to me, that's been one of the most sort of important aspects of this documentary was we're going through a similar thing.

39:00and it's not really for me to say but some of the comments have been it's really inspirational, really positive without sounding like a massive dick I don't mean it in an arrogant way I just mean people have gone oh, that's quite cool because I felt the same things and I just thought everyone else was getting work and I wasn't I think what you've done is you've highlighted the challenges facing the TV industry but also there's a difference between experiencing those challenges and then be willing to be transparent about facing those challenges about how it makes things and put that in so yeah but I know people you know I'm sure you guys do as well I know people who've now Amazon delivery drivers because they can't get work and you know the whole you know just sort of um yeah dealing with that reality is has been really hard for people and you know so yeah I I guess it's it's been helpful to for that to be something that people can relate to and I guess as a sort of final question how did it then end up on BBC2 like what was the kind of the major driver the sudden moment that made it go i mean this is sort of quite hilarious and i'll keep it brief but i i touted so i had the film and gwyn bless him saw the rushes and said this is not a podcast this is a film so he started cutting it so he did it for free i i did it for free and uh he cut a film and i then had to try and sell it and that was my job so uh i went to various places and with no joy and in the end because of my um the robin ryland series that i was involved with i got an invitation to go to a bbc drinks at sheffield documentary festival which i've never been to before and i didn't really consider it to be my sort of scene and uh but i had an invitation so and he went well get get yourself up there and you don't come back until you've got a commission.

40:47So obviously half joking, but not really. And I went up there and I spent most of that, I went up for a day. I spent most of that day not really speaking to people, not really knowing how to sort of network. I mean, it was embarrassing. But then I got really pissed. That's a very TV story, isn't it? I have to say, I didn't mean to, I thought that was it. Well, I might as well get pissed. So I went to the drinks, got really pissed. And at the end of the evening, a good friend of mine called Lucy I told her my plight and in my bag I had A4 flyers of Miriam Margulies' face and a little blurb about the documentary and people couldn't believe I had this completely like you know ancient way of selling anything and they were like but it became a bit of a novelty and I said what the what are you doing with that why have you got a tote bag full of A4 flyers and I went I'm selling this Miriam documentary and the person I spoke to Lucy my friend spoke to and she went well you've got to speak to saeeda and i and and saeeda i know i was i was around sort of tv royalty i was around all these people who could commission things and i didn't really know so the blessing of it was ignorance was bliss uh i had i had very positive conversations i put flyers in the right people's hands and i said are you interested and people said we love miriam let's talk and i followed it up and they went, you've got something here.

42:10Like I was thinking it's funny, it's quite quirky, it's quite an enjoyable thing. And they went, no, no, no, you've got something here because it speaks to something about the industry and it speaks to your plight and the fact that you're trying to do something different and it's also Miriam Margulies. We'd like to buy it. So that was it. And that was a sort of, it was a long process, but in short, that was the process. And I guess the moral of the story is, in a way, don't overthink it. go up to well you know try and sort of don't overthink that you're not part of that world and also I thought I needed something to give somebody and I wasn't on Instagram and I didn't really have a deck I don't have anything but actually it was quite helpful because they could fold it up put it in their pocket and the next morning they woke up and went what's this and that worked I also think the moral of the story the best conversations happen in the pub yep exactly the commissions and all the meetings and things that get agreed get sorted out in the pub too are you a Miriam Margulies fan Rebecca of course I mean, who isn't?

43:04And I think given how many times we've talked about YouTube and social media today, I think she's so interesting because she is someone who's had a bit of a resurgence in recent years, largely because clips of her on the Graham Norton show telling these brilliant, outrageous stories about her sort of wayward youth. They go viral and you just have to stop and watch it because she's so compelling and she's so wonderful. She's always worth a watch. Yeah, no, you're right. Well, I would highly recommend watching the documentary if you haven't seen it already. It's called Miriam Margulies, Made Me.

43:33me and it's available to watch on bbc iplayer but that brings us nicely to this week's edition of the audio network media quiz uh free media stories connected by one theme are then shoehorned into the format of an existing media property uh if that makes sense to you good luck um this week it's the cover story every good political thriller has a cover story the official version that conceals what's really happening underneath. I'll give you a coded political thriller briefing. You strip away the cover and tell me the real media story underneath. Does that make sense? Let's find out. Maybe it's like when someone tries to explain a board game to you and you're like we'll play it and we'll work it out.

44:18May Lord have mercy. And once again, Alex at Audio Network has created a playlist to score today's game. It's the best of three. So buzz in with your name. So Simon will say Simon and Rebecca will say Rebecca fantastic let's play the cover story a former leader removed by sorry this is the longest question in the world a former leader removed by internal rebellion after years of chaos in the corridors of power has dropped off the official radar no security detail no red box no spin doctor he has crossed enemy lines on an unauthorized 72 hour mission and has been embedded with soldiers in the front drones overhead artillery in the distance what is he doing and for whom rebecca what yes this is boris johnson going to ukraine for channel five it is indeed he's doing a feature-length documentary called boris johnson into the kill zone for channel five no i'm not all i can think of what i heard this was just like pro like not poor Boris, but like Michael Portillo got to go and piss around on trains for quite a while before they sent him anywhere dangerous, you know, and he's straight to Ukraine.

45:30Yeah, I mean, I think this is such a Channel 5 commission, isn't it? It's just you've got your big name. It's a bit controversial. Yeah, it's going out there. I think it's gonna be great. Let's go for question two. There were two new handlers for the Saturday operation. The first gained global influence running. What I love about this is I think producer Matt has deliberately made really long questions just to throw me. I love it. There were two new handlers for this operation. The first gained global influence running operations in a Regency manner. The second were publicly humiliated by its US cousins.

46:01Who are they? Simon. Yes. I can never remember the first person's name very well. But anyway, I know it's Amy Lou Wood. It's SNL, right? It is indeed, yes. And the first person is Nicola... Coughlin. What's that? Coughlin. Coughlin. Do we get one point? You get the full points. Are we doing points? I have a point because then there is an edge of your seatiness to the final point. And therefore, things are all the more exciting. Of course, this is the announcement that, as you have just been saying, Nicola Coughlin and Amy Lewood are going to be hosting SNL. I mean, what do you make? Have you been engaging in SNL that much, Simon?

46:43You're not nodding. I'm nodding. Yeah. How have you found it? I was terrified because I worry that those things are so harshly criticised and no one's got any acceptance or tolerance for trying something new in comedy or trying to do something different and I think it's really good I think it's really good really sharp they just have to keep the tin helmets on and not listen to any criticism because otherwise nothing would happen and we just go back to sort of going, and actually let's go back into our little holes and try and think of something new to do. I think it's really clever and really funny.

47:23And the hit and miss ratio is very much in favour of the hits. And Rebecca, like ratings have slipped a bit, I guess, on linear. You know, it was about roughly around 230 ,000, I think. It's now slipped to about 150 ,000 around. A rough estimation. But I guess that's not the full picture, is it? It's about Sky's reputation as being cool. And then also, I guess, social media traction. I mean, what's your sense of how well it's doing? Yeah, I think this has been such a conundrum for sketch shows in the last 10, 15 years that we used to have so many sketch shows on TV and they've kind of fallen out of fashion.

47:58But at the same time, you're getting so many people doing sketches on TikTok, on YouTube, on Instagram. And, you know, and they're so clippable, they go viral. And I think there's kind of a sense of, OK, why can't we make that work on TV? and this this was a gamble it was a punt and expectations were so high and we spoke to my colleague john spoke to darrow breen about this ahead of ahead of it coming back and he made the point of this show is getting compared to 50 years of iconic highlights from from and how on earth do you live up to that because there are duds in in the american saturday night live and there are duds in every every um sketch show but you remember the really good ones you remember the ones that lasted so yeah it's the you know it's done modest ratings because it's on sky it was never going to do like blockbuster numbers because it's you know it's off on a pay payful provider but it has you know yeah it was sort of coming in at double the slot average when it started it slipped a bit but i think i think like you said i think there's there was so much like kind of misanthropy around it initially people were quite curmudgeonly about it and people have gone yeah it's doing the thing it's getting there it's finding its feet so yeah the ratings might have slipped but i think it is finding its feet.

49:09Yeah, and it should just be applauded for being brave and trying to do something and not just reverting back to, you know, let's go for stuff that's really safe. So yeah, I completely agree. I think you need something that has an opinion. And Nicola Coughlin and Amy Lee Wood seem like really good transatlantic choices as well. You know, and Nicola Coughlin's having such a moment as well. She was fantastic in Playboy of the Western World recently. She was on stage. She was so good. Yeah, I just, I think, yeah, they're making smart choices. I'm optimistic for it and speaking of optimism it's me trying to do the third question of course edge of our seat in terms of who could potentially win so here's question three classified file surfaced about a front man he was removed the front runners for succession have all declined to be activated too busy, too cautious, too associated with other operations a world card from the overnight shift is now the front runner what post is at stake?

50:05should we share it? Yeah, go on then. I mean, there's no actual real prize, so you might as well. Competition is quite fun, isn't it? It is. So Simon and Rebecca. I'm going to go for the Radio 1 replacement for Scott Mills. Well, it's technically you're both wrong because it's a Radio 2 replacement. Okay, I tell you what, I've brought my fingers on the pulse. Let's go again. No, yeah, sorry, Radio 2. Yeah. I mean, it's certainly a big role to fill in terms of all of the media speculation over the course of last week. I mean, I guess the real challenge is, is there really a clear front runner, do you think, for taking over that slot?

50:44Radio 2 historically hasn't necessarily been like a kind of new talent pool. It's kind of people who are sort of well known on one area, you know, Radio 1 particularly, and then migrate over to Radio 2 at a certain point. So it'd be interesting to see it become a new talent pool. Sounds good. Well, in that quiz, I guess we had joint winners and also joint losers. We won and we lost. Which sounds to be the right thing. My thanks to Rebecca and Simon and also again to Alex at Audio Network for supplying today's music. And including music that we actually heard in Simon's documentary too. Alex and her team could do this for you too.

51:24just simply head to audionetwork.com and you can click the link in the show notes. Simon, I mean, we were mentioning BBC2 and BBC iPlayer, but is there anywhere else that we can follow your work? The only thing that's going through my mind is there is a bit of a surprise ending in the doc, which might... Anyway, I'm just going to say it and we can work the rest of it out. It's at Simon Draper Comedy. OK, great. Rebecca, anything for you? You can follow me on, well, you can find my work on broadcastnow.co.uk. You can follow me on Twitter, TikTok and threads as Rebecca K Cooney and Instagram as any name but Becky.

52:04And also like and subscribe. Thank you so much for being part of the Media Club. Thank you, Rebecca. Thank you, Simon. I'm Scott Bryan. The producer was Matt Hill. This is a Rethink Audio production with video by Podcast Discovery. Matt's back next week. See you then.

52:22Thank you.