Beyond Google Search: Finding Today's Consumers

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1:51Hello, welcome to the Media Club. I'm your host, Matt Deegan. In the club today, Can big tech be tamed? As the competition regulator tries to tweak Google's algorithm, Mail Online's SEO chief Carly Stephen explains what the impact has been for her outlet. Also on the show, our vertical drama is going to be the next big thing. Caroline Frost, Radio Times TV editor and podcast host, tells us if there are thumbs up or maybe a swipe right. All that plus discontent swells at the BBC over Gaza coverage. The Washington Post upgrades the right to reply. And in the Audio Network Media Quiz, we look at three brands that are breaking records.

2:28That's all happening in this edition of the Media Club. Come on in.

2:37Hello both. Nice to see you. Hello. Carly, welcome to the sofa for the first time. You're Director of SEO and Editorial E-Commerce at Mail Online. Now, it's a great title, but now we add to that, member of the Media Club. So almost as good. But as part of that, you get to have a plus one. Who are you adding to our membership list this week? So this week, I would like to add BBC's News Deputy Global Director, Fiona Crack. They announced this week that they were going to be using AI translation to launch a new Polish site, BBC Polska, which I think is just such an exciting use of the technology.

3:15It's something that a few publishers have started to get into. And I think it's fraught with risks and, you know, ethical dilemmas that need to be carefully thought through. But I think it's a really exciting way of reaching the audiences at scale in a way that we haven't been able to do before. And the way that the BBC are going about it is exactly the right way of doing it. They've got complete editorial control. Nothing is fully automated. There's a team of experts behind it. There's original content being produced as well. And I think it's really good to see publishers embracing this technology after we've seen Reddit's huge rise with automated translation and Google changing its position on what exactly is allowed and isn't allowed.

4:02And I really hope more publishers will follow suit and start using AI in this really kind of creative, positive way. Also, there's quite a lot of auto translation happening. It's quite interesting to sort of control it yourself. And when it's your own media brand, you have a different kind of attention to detail, don't you? Yeah, exactly that. And I think being really curated as well about the type of content that gets translated and what is interesting to that audience and creating new content uniquely for that audience will be a really important part of it. so yeah so I'm really excited about that and I think like the the companies that they're partnering with I know some of them a little bit and and just the the quality of the translation is so much better than what it used to be if you you know if you pop something into Google Translate it's not that at all and I think as well that maybe you know maybe not everybody understands is the amount of effort that goes into improving those translations there's it's a lot of work to get an AI translation up to the standard that it needs to be and to get the tone of voice right you know for a daily mail translation I'm sure is very different from a BBC translation and I think the putting the legwork in is going to be you know really interesting to watch the the benefits of that.

5:16Yeah be interesting to see. Caroline who's your plus one this week? My plus one is Stephen Sacker because we know that he departed hard talk very anguished exit from the BBC and from that program in particular. He went into print. He really did stick his head above the parapet to say, not for him, he knows he had a good run, but for the format for the long form interview, holding leaders, cultural figures, all sorts of people across the world to account in really quite a singular fashion. I mean, hard talk does stand out. And if you look up old episodes on YouTube, they have stood the test of time.

5:53And he just didn't know what was going to happen to either it or the BBC or him and one of those three things is at least safe because he's jumped across the river and he's popped up this week on Times Radio and just at first glance he seems to have found a very happy home. He has been asked all about his opinions, his knowledge, his insight about what's going on in this chaotic global political climate. Clearly he's got it all to give and I think it's a happy meeting of minds but it's a shame that it had to happen. Yeah it's interesting we're in a world of short form but also in a world of long form you know podcasts have sort of reinvented the long form interview that there are ways to to do it well it's strange they didn't maybe flip the format.

6:41Well exactly I think he made the point that in this world of short form yes of course there's a there's a place for TikTok there's a place for the Snapchat is that still a thing we don't want to get down with the kids, but that people were tuning in, that podcasts have proved that there is a hunger, ever, ever deeper hunger for profound, take your time, really do just analyse the issues. And as I said, holding those people to account, Hardtalk really was very, very special. And he was left head scratching at the decision. And of course, yes, his future at the BBC became untenable as a result. So yes, no surprises that somebody else has scooped him up.

7:24Yes, now they've got lunchtimes at Times Radio. Okay, this week, plans to regulate Google search have been set up by the Competition and Markets Authority. That's the CMA. Carly, we've talked on the show about this before. So there's a bind that news publishers are in when it comes to the sort of AI overview. They can opt out of it, but doesn't it opt them out of Google as well? Yeah, exactly. So it's not really a choice. we all to some degree some more than others rely on Google for reaching our audiences and to not have the option of where our content appears or saying your option is basically don't appear at all ever is not really a choice there are many publishers who could be able to take that so I think this is a really positive move it's definitely in the right direction you know we we absolutely uh need this and it's great that the regulator is recognizing some of the challenges that we're facing as publishers so what the cma said they've they've sort of designated google has sort of strategic market status what does that what does that mean it means that they are able to impose um like more rules around google than they would be if they if they didn't have that designated status.

8:42It's like one of the things that we would absolutely love to see is that we get some actual reporting and some insights into where that traffic is coming from. So the moment for publishers, we can't tell the difference between if somebody has clicked on an article that's being linked in an AI overview or if they've clicked on that article when it's ranking in normal Google. So it makes it really, really difficult to properly understand what the impact to some of these big AI changes is because there's no differentiation in any of the analytics tools that we have. I mean, that's not something that they've forgotten to do.

9:17They're not idiots, are they? I mean, I've started seeing like ChatGPT appear in search and analytics when you can look at that. But as you say, there's no way to discern the two. What's your hunch? I think that the analytics part of it is something that they are capable of doing and all publishers want it. And I think if we could get to a point where we can clearly see where that traffic is coming from and being able to track it, like that is going to give us so much more insight than we have at the moment. I'm sure we're going to come on to this a bit more later. But also just the having more control over where and how our content appears is going to be really key for publishers because at the moment it feels like our hands are tied behind our backs.

10:06Caroline, we're always stuck with the technology mega giants, aren't we? It does seem increasingly that the tech is leading all the editorial and creative decisions. I mean, a bit of a sad day for us creative types, but I guess perhaps it will inspire and democratise things that we don't even know about yet. It's interesting to see it may get involved. I mean, there's lots of levers they can pull, but always, I guess, they're going to be playing catch up. It is interesting. It reminds me of what the last sort of four or five years when we were told that Facebook was no longer a tech platform and had to take responsibility for being a publisher and really had the burden, which it has to a certain extent, I think, addressed in terms of the content, the moderation and realising that the Wild West is not so healthy for everybody involved.

10:57But it's interesting, isn't it? I mean, I remember working for a previous publisher and we used to be summoned to those urgent meetings to be told they've changed the algorithm. And of course, we were absolutely at the mercy of what Facebook in those days had decided to do. And now, of course, Google with their AI offerings are equally lever pulling. You imagine a sort of Bond villain just somewhere tucked in a lair saying, I shall make it more about stories today and just seeing the whole publishing world panic as one. I mean, it's interesting that Google themselves are under quite a lot of threats from the AI side.

11:34Might there be an end run around them? Can they keep their dominance? Yeah, it's so interesting and it's just moving so quickly. I think they are so massive. Like, even though, yes, ChatGPT and the other LLMs are growing incredibly quickly, Google has the, it has the heft to kind of probably see this through. And the type of data that they have is just for particularly for kind of breaking news types of queries just sort of sets them apart, I think, from the other LLMs. But then having said that, you see, you know, you see charts all the time of like this point in the not too distant future when ChatGPT starts to overtake traditional search.

12:16I honestly just don't think we know. I think it's moving so quickly and it's user behavior that is changing. And it's impossible to know how soon people are going to become comfortable and accept an LLM answer over a traditional search. And it might be that it just that it fragments and that there are, you know, you go to ChatGBT if you've got some quite long, complicated thing that you want help with. It's like, how do I get to a certain place if I have three children and I need toilet stops? That's definitely an LLM question. But if you just want to know the Sainsbury's opening time, maybe you stick with Google.

12:53Well, we've talked a lot on the show about TV production being in a slump. But according to The Guardian, some UK film crews are picking up work in a new genre, vertical dramas. Caroline, it's intriguing, isn't it? It's no great surprise. There's a huge amount of vertical content consumed, TikTok reels, all of that. I mean, these are short sort of one to two minute episodic dramas. We were watching a bit of Pride and Prejudice earlier. It's interesting. It is interesting. I mean, the interest of research and teamwork. I did watch some Pride and Prejudice in vertical form on my phone. so I mean drama production companies would have you think that this was somehow desperately going to compromise your enjoyment of it and I have to say I was not compromised I mean it wasn't Pride and Prejudice as I recognised it, the story seemed to have some elements It was a very Bridgerton sort of version of it.

13:50Yes, Jane Austen I think would be left reaching for the smelling salts but the cheapness was not a problem, now I do think lockdown has a lot to do with this because back in the day you know when everybody was locked up and everybody was having to sort of make up the the production side of things story came to the fore we were reminded that ultimately story is all words hopefully still have some traction but it doesn't really matter if something looks a bit cheap and that's obviously the great selling appeal and in this era where the walls are just closing in on tv drama production every which way because of advertising with the commercial broadcasters, with license fee constraints, with the streamers closing their doors and not really being that interested in buying, particularly British, but international content.

14:42Perhaps this is a way forward. It can be a lovely siloed offering. And it's interesting that these are platforms. They're not pretending to be broadcasters. They're not interested in selling their stuff to broadcasters. Of course, what may yet end up happening is that they are the people in a position to sell these things. They may yet turn up in the 9pm flagship slot on a linear broadcaster. But good that people are getting work. Good that people are being creative. It's very democratising. And of course, if you speak to the purists, that's a bad thing anyway. But perhaps it's no bad thing to have people sort of kicking at their heels a bit.

15:18Yeah, there's a good article in The Guardian about it. And these aren't small crews. I mean, they're smaller crews, but there's still a decent number of people working on it. It's still hair and makeup. Did you watch any of them, Carly? I have to confess I did not do my homework, but I did think it was really interesting. And I think I think it kind of speaks to this change in user behavior that we're just talking about when people are really time short and they're using their phones more. Like, again, I think we're going to talk about this later. And it seems maybe just like a natural extension of that, that people are kind of really comfortable with that format now and bite sized chunks.

15:48You know, it kind of suits the kind of nature of someone's commute in a way that maybe long form traditional video doesn't. It is funny, though, isn't it? Because for years, the TV's the shape it is, because that is meant to emulate our watching the world experience. And the reason words are meant to go from left to right is because that's how our eyes naturally go. And now, because phones are so much more convenient to be held in our hands, suddenly all the content is now vertical. And it just seems to be tail wagging dog, cart before horse. And we'll all end up just sort of being used to that as the way of looking at the world.

16:23I know Mark Thompson at CNN has been talking about them kind of going vertical video first in the CNN app. And that's a big, big thing that they're going to push towards. So phones rule. Phones do rule. Do they rule, Carly, do you think? They absolutely rule. I mean, I think 70 to 80 percent of our audience is mobile. And that's actually, you know, there's some publishers where it's a lot higher than that. Really at the mail, that 70 to 80 are watching on their phones. Yeah. Reading. How interesting. Not me. I'm a laptopper in the morning with my coffee. Does it make a difference for your colleagues who are making this stuff?

16:56Because obviously they've got a CMS that's obviously got to cope with that. But also if they're doing video, are you all vertical first or trying to make it work in all formats? Yeah, so I can't speak with huge amounts of authority on this as it is a completely separate team. But we've obviously got a huge focus on TikTok. So there's like 33 million followers on TikTok. and so we're very much kind of think of that that is a it's a um it's an environment that we feel comfortable in like we know we've got an audience there and it's really interesting actually like reading the comments on tiktok for uh for our content and people go i cannot believe this is the daily mail and they're they're like they're so surprised at how a sort of legacy publisher is really able to kind of be quite innovative on that on that platform i think brand perception is different i think i was talking to your colleague jamie stew who runs the podcasting side and he was saying if you talk to a consumer in america about what what the mail is it's very different to maybe what a consumer in the uk thinks that it's because of the the legacy yeah yeah i think that's very true and i think if you if you're in america and you look at the website compared to here it's like if it's quite a different home page um you know and the home page is is our shop front it's a hugely important part of our identity and and who we are and and you know the the kind of brand part of the daily mail is one of our greatest strengths and what we're really proud of that you know people come to us all the time probably more than any other publishers that branded aspect accounts for a huge amount of our traffic but yeah it is very different but we'd still see that same you know that same sort of split in the US even though the identity is a little bit different and what we're known for there isn't quite the same as what we're known for here.

18:37Caroline do you think we'll see more UK content creators and production companies get into get into verticals a lot it's been driven by uh the far east and some of those platforms are commissioning i think they'll have to because it will be evolve or die i mean the new york times wrote a damning long piece about how there's a generation of creatives falling off a cliff because the technology is closing in because people aren't prepared to pay for content and i think that people we've seen this i mean the vertical drama as a phrase i didn't know until 24 hours ago that industry has apparently mushroomed has doubled in size just in the last year alone so people are clearly taking the tech and then saying right what can we do with it so it's a combination isn't it i mean it's darwinian the best people will rise to the top as they always have whatever the metier it's interesting to hear you talk about the the home page being the brand because of course 20 years ago the the newspaper front was the brand and the website was the disruptor and now TikTok is the disruptor.

19:40So things change and new people come along and find gold in those hills. Finally, just before the break, a deadline reported this week on internal BBC meeting that turned rather rebellious. Caroline, this is with sort of an AMA with BBC chief Tim Davey and the head of news, Deborah Tanness. A bit of turmoil because of a documentary. I mean, there's been turmoil at the BBC since the Hamas attacks back in 23 because, I mean, I don't want to sound trite, but it does sort of remind me. I hope you understand. In the context, I'm just describing this as an analogy and I'm not in any way comparing football with what's going on in the Middle East.

20:21But Garalineke used to say that every single person complains that their team isn't being given enough coverage in the match of the day lineup. And it's kind of similar because they get complaints equal and opposite from both sides that they are either playing too much to sort of Israeli PR. And then somebody will say, but what about the disastrous decision where a documentary got made and it turned out to be the son of a Hamas minister? So I guess it's like one of those things, if they are equally antagonizing people, they're doing something right. However, tensions are really high and they're having these internal meetings that are being leaked.

20:57Some people are profoundly upset by what they are seeing in the coverage of their own broadcaster, which, of course, above any other broadcaster in the world, impartiality is their USP, is their superpower. So they cannot be seen to compromise on it. But I'm sure that every decision, I mean, now they're upset because a second documentary has been shelved. But you can see why this would happen. This is Gaza Doctors Under Attack. I mean, the BBC talk about the fact it was partly what some of the filmmakers had said. Obviously, they've had a lot of response to previous documentaries. BBC say that they have published a number of documentaries.

21:31On both sides. Yes, about this. Yes. But it's an intractable problem. But it's a worry, isn't it, when the BBC will no longer, if in doubt, don't broadcast. I mean, that's the position that they've got themselves in. And I don't think there are any easy answers. And it obviously doesn't help when people are leaking internal meetings. I mean, Tim Davey, Deborah Turness must just be thinking how we've got enough problems with our outward facing optics. And then to have these sort of rebellions inside the corridors is just the last thing they need. And I thought it was interesting they chose to take all the questions.

22:08There was sort of an internal voting up. Well, I mean, the BBC, that's the one thing they have always done incredibly well, is that one department will hold another one to account. So Adam Fleming, who hosts their newscast, he was given the microphone and he made a great, I don't think it's a show, I think he's a very good journalist. And it was important to him that any questions that were risen to the top got posed to the executives. So, yes, I mean, that's one thing that they have always got right. But it does make for slightly strange observing from the outside, for sure. Of course, there's not a lot of coverage from the area, from independent journalists, as Israel stops journalists entering Gaza.

22:47We see in Iran, Lise Doucette reports from Iran on condition it's not broadcast on BBC Persia. Is part of this issue sort of a vacuum of information and eyewitnesses? Of course. I mean, it's a battle for propaganda, isn't it? It's a battle to get the messages out to the international political community. So all of those, I mean, they're soft currencies. It just makes you not take our democracy and our free press for granted in this country. So when we return, the Washington Post is extending its right to reply. We'll see you in a sec.

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26:18That's growtherapy.com slash ACAST. growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. Welcome back. Here's some of the things we've been talking about in the media club this week. Politics Joe has pulled its podcasts from YouTube, putting all of its video series behind a paywall. The reason, well, Press Gazette says it's partly the ad rate, the CPMs, when compared to the audio version. They've already got 400 people signing up. The Washington Post is to roll out a new feature from the source. We'll give any sources mentioned in an article the right to reply once the story's been published.

27:02They hope that the sort of quality commentary will keep stories alive and deeply read for longer. And ITV's daytime schedule is moving from White City to the hospital club, well, as was, which by curious coincidence is exactly where this show was recorded for many years. So if anyone from ITV Studios is watching, we lost a lightning cable there back in 2017. If you can find it, do let producer Matt know. Remember, links to all of our stories are available on our sub stack. It's free to subscribe to. Just go to themediaclub.com. That's themediaclub.com. Caroline, getting your sources, having a right to reply at the bottom of your articles.

27:41Chaos reigns. I mean, remarkable, admirable. I do remember working for a newspaper in Australia and the thing had gone to print was on people's kitchen tables and furious PR phones. Can you change it? Can you change it? No. Well, now clearly you can. if people feel strongly enough. I mean, I don't know how you referee it. What's the difference between a reported, completely impartial, factually accurate story and a bunch of opinion? I'm a columnist. If I'm meant to provide things that people disagree with, I don't think I invite necessarily comment and discussion and editorial tweaks, but let's just see how it goes.

28:27I think, Carly, in America, they have a different take sometimes on writing up of articles and more kind of traditional fact checking and separate departments that do it which we don't necessarily have a history of doing here but they also talked about basically they want to wrestle conversation off of social media and back to the website which i think it's a good idea i i think it's a i think it's a great idea i i i love that um i think it's something that we're all trying to do you know we we all want big we all want all of it like we all want big audiences on the platforms but we also really want people to come back to our websites where we can make you know we can monetize them in a way that we can't really do off platform so i think i think the um i i think the idea is fantastic um i think like to caroline's point though the the amount of work that's going to have to go in to fact checking those responses vetting them like making sure that you know they're they're not full of inaccuracies that's that's a huge undertaking especially i imagine for the types of sources that are going to be quoted in the washington post where they are going to have an agenda and they're going to have an opinion and if the article in question maybe isn't in line with that they are definitely going to want to come back on it what was a basically an internal email was leaked which sort of explained this and said the journalist will send a link to all of the participants people who are quoted they can basically log on and do it and then the journalist can reply to the reply.

29:52So you get basically a huge argument, which I imagine is great for page views. Yeah, I think that's brilliant. And I think, yeah, I can see that if it works, then, and I think they're only starting to trial it on the climate content. You know, you're potentially getting a whole host of follow-on stories, like from that original story. So you get, you know, much more kind of deep, well-rounded kind of in theory i suppose like balance like multiple viewpoints type of content that you wouldn't get otherwise so i can i can see it if everything works as it should do it's a really brilliant really innovative idea um i'd be worried about the back end admin elon musk must be furious another reason to be annoyed yes um caroline one of the things i said there was about itv moving to the hospital club moving out of white city obviously they've halved the number of people that are going to work on ITV Daytime for next year.

30:49Do you think that they've got to I mean they've sort of said there's no real changes to the programmes but obviously with such a big back end change there's surely got to be some It's slippery slope isn't it? I mean the good news is that the money that they're hoping to save is going to go into finding another great post office state of the nation politics changing drama that stops us all in our tracks and unites us all as one. And the World Cup is obviously coming along as well. So they need some football cash. The bad news is that the schedule, which perhaps not anybody in this room, but certainly people stuck at home, elderly people, carers, people for reasons beyond their control, need the constant companionship of daytime presenters.

31:34And a big USP, big part of that brand is the consistency. So it's all very well to say, don't worry, you won't see any changes. Of course, if you're used to seeing loose women on every day of the year and suddenly it's only on a third of that time and they're already talking about changing the lineup. So it will be a more youthful variety of people. Then that's going to have an impact. And I just I think it's I mean, yes, things do have to change. Nobody gets a sort of tenured presenter slot or even crew slot anymore. But I think it's a sign that things will be shaking up beyond recognition very quickly in the next couple of years.

32:10And this shift to the hospital club is just one aspect of that. Do you think there's opportunities for a creative change as well? Do those shows need a reboot or a rejig? We're very used to it. I mean, we've had daytime telly now for half a century. And of course, I don't know about you, but I can just about remember when it was just CFAX pages. and of course people had to compete to put tv on and then there was the great explosion and now it's a case of just fill the slots so perhaps there's a quality control perhaps we'll go back the other way but i can't see it happening with everything we've talked about with technology making everything so much cheaper i think it's more likely to become even more wild west the linear channels have got existential challenges for for sure and to see that they're pulling in They're trying to sort of learn from the social media giants, aren't they, and sort of pulling in what they can.

33:10So perhaps the day will come when we see some pub quizzer on YouTube suddenly popping up on ITV mornings. I mean, I'd watch that. Maybe. Carly, the only constant is change in this media world. We know this. Your role is interesting. The sort of SEO role was quite a modern role a good few years ago. But I'm sure it's seen quite a bit of evolution over the last 10 years, I suppose. Yeah, completely. So I was trying to remember when I started and I think it was around 2007 and it was really new and really exciting. And you could, it was, I was going to say it was easy. It was never easy, but we could really affect change, that you could really make a difference in a way that is so much harder now.

33:59I remember editors would say to me like oh we this is a really important story we need to be ranking in Google for this and I would be able to do it like I would through some really basic things it was all kind of basic stuff which everybody will be a bit ahead of the pack exactly yes and and now like that is that's near on impossible and that's probably a good thing like it probably shouldn't be that easy and you know and if anything's easy people just game it and abuse it and take advantage of it and that's why you you know how much of that is everybody's of knows sort of the main things to do how much is it google changing the rules as we go along yeah so it's both those things like it's very much cat and mouse with google that uh once people work out a thing that works and exploit it google shuts it down and then you move on to the next thing so it's been a bit like that with seo but i think as well that the kind of what google is prioritizing and its algorithm has completely changed.

34:54It's not just about, have you got the right words in your headline? It's much more about, is this a really good user experience for the person coming to that website? You know, like the performance of the page on a mobile phone. Page time, load time. All of that stuff is like really factored in. And then a lot of emphasis on quality and authority and trustworthiness, which is all really, really good, but it comes with problems it comes with is Google sort of dictating what we do as creators in a way that sometimes it can feel a bit like that like oh if you are not known for this thing therefore you cannot have traffic for this subject.

35:36It very much feels sometimes like publishers are being told to stay in their lane of what they are recognised for as publishers which is sort of fine if you're a niche publisher but if you're someone like the Daily Mail where we cover everything and that makes it it can make it quite hard I think to want to pivot and try something else to kind of work within the confines of of Google's rules and in a way that we shouldn't have to be dictated and but because of exactly what we were saying right at the beginning it's a not it's not something we can ignore it's a really important traffic and revenue source for us.

36:10But you said earlier that your brand is so strong that you're probably less vulnerable to those choices through google those entrances than other publishers perhaps it's quite nice that niche specialists in particular areas are getting the real estate of the google search that they would never otherwise get does the daily mail need to compete with those people no i think i think you're absolutely right and i think i think the to the first point about the brand um like absolutely we're in such a fortunate position where over 50 % of all our traffic is direct or over 50 % of our search traffic is branded as people actually Googling the Daily Mail.

36:50Oh, the word Daily Mail in the search term. Or a variation of that because they want to come to us because we're recognised. You know, we have people who love the Daily Mail really love it and they want to visit it. And that is fantastic. I think we're, and I agree with you absolutely, like niche publishers who are experts in their field like should be getting that recognition. and I think where it's where it becomes a little bit more problematic it's where it's things we have expertise in and we want to be able to do more of them but maybe for example the use of freelancers is something that's been a real that's been a bit of a challenge recently because Google has sort of said if unless you are known for using freelancers if you want to get into something a bit different you want to try a new uh content category and you shouldn't use freelancers so it's just got a byline so it's looking for bylines of journalists i think they would say it was more complicated than that but it's it it just seems that seems mad and i think actually that will disproportionately affect smaller publishers because you it's really expensive to have journalists and if you want to try to kind of target some new niche or new vertical you know you maybe do want to start with freelancers before you commit to all of the kind of admin and hr that comes with hiring so sort of in the kind of buzzfeed times and very much every news organization has a big plasma screen up that says here are the things that people are searching for at the moment this is what we should jump on and write stories is that still a big part of what you're doing is actually that less important now what's what's the advice to the to the newsroom yeah so i think i think for us um knowing what how people are coming to the website is really important and really valuable but our absolute priority is our loyal engaged users and growing subscriptions so we're now at 300 000 um subscribers in total like this is the you know i think like a lot of publishers we're kind of all pivoting to be subscription models and and really catering to that audience with kind of high quality what is it that makes as you can come to the Daily Mail for.

38:57That might be our columnists. It might be the crosswords. The Royals is a huge kind of driver of loyalty. People will pay to read our content. So I think that is the priority over maybe those kind of one and done flyby visits that come from something like Google Discover, which is that kind of personalised feed that you get on your mobile phone if you use Chrome app on your phone and you get this feed of stories. And that can be quite clickbaity. and it's very addictive, I think, for publishers. And it feels like, again, it's actually now, I think for the first time ever last year, Discover became a bigger referrer than traditional search for news publishers, which is a huge shift, but it's such a volatile source of traffic.

39:43It's a really uncomfortable place to be. And I think we're very lucky as a brand that we don't rely on it in a way that a lot of publishers that 70 % of their traffic comes from this completely unstable uh referrer source but i mean a lot of birmingham mail stuff pops up in my uh discover feed and well done for them for for getting that in there but it is on the more sensationalist end of things the sort of you you will not believe this thing that's fairly straightforward yeah i think you do see a lot of that and i think that content isn't where we're going to get subscribers like no somebody's not going to click on you know there's been 50s major major retailer closes 56 stores isn't going to get people subscribing to our content so is it that important to us probably not and whereas a peter hitchens kind of exclusive piece of content um that nobody else can write ai can't replicate it that's much more valuable to us and i'm really lucky that we have a proprietor who wants to invest in that and kind of sees the value of it So I think for us, that's absolutely the most important thing.

40:49And there's some sort of signs that sort of what were traditionally competitive news organisations perhaps working together on projects or doing things to generate more homegrown traffic. I mean, I think the idea of a homegrown Google is probably not really the right one. But are there some things that kind of publishers here in the UK can do together to support content discovery? Yeah, so I'm not sure about content discovery, but we're already collaborating much more closely, I think, than we ever have before. Like, for example, I think we actually share the printing presses with the Telegraph.

41:24That wouldn't have happened 10 years ago. And just speaking from my own perspective, I think I talk to my counterparts at other publishers as regularly as I do to my own team. It's very collaborative. It feels like there's a lot of support within the industry because the changes have been, you know, have been so profound, like the algorithms have changed so much that we feel less like competitors. I think now, of course, we are still competitors, but we're all facing the same challenges, particularly now with AI and actually sharing knowledge and sharing what we're seeing. It feels completely natural.

42:00And it's one of the things that I enjoy most is like meeting other publishers and just, you know, sort of therapy session if nothing else. It's like, is your Discover traffic down? Oh, yes, I see. Yeah, it's really healthy, I think. Well, there's sort of a new enemy, isn't there? The enemy of my enemy is my friend. There's a bit of that. Okay, just enough time for the Audio Network Media Quiz. Let's see how much attention our guests have been paying to the media news. This week, it's called Record Breakers. Three media stories of people pushing the envelope, going for gold, and other sporting cliches inserted here.

42:33Just guess the record-breaking story. and once again Alex at Audio Network has nobly taken up this absolute travesty of a brief and supplied a playlist of tracks to lift your spirits it's a best of three buzzing with your name if you know the answer so Caroline you will say I'll say Caroline and Carly you will say Let's play Record Breakers Which nimble device has this year overtaken television to be the most time spent on a device Caroline? Yes. I think we both know this one. This is the humble phone. It is the humble phone. So UK adults spend more time on phones, that's 3 hours and 21 minutes, than TV, 3 hours and 16 minutes, according to the IPA.

43:22TV still dominates in the evening, but mobile is becoming an all-day device. Do you think mobile is going to eat away at the evenings as well? Yeah, I mean, we're already seeing that with people double screening. and I just love the charts in this story where you can see people like turning on their tellies in the evening but like they never come off their phones you think when are you working? I think that was it, it made me laugh a lot but yeah I think so, I see it with my kids already like they are completely comfortable watching things on phones in a way that I would find utterly infuriating so definitely I think there's a generational shift there Okay time for record breaker number two The league tables of radio history were turned upside down this week, but why?

44:11Carly. Carly. This was the British Broadcasting Century podcast. Yes. Debunking some previously understood truths about radio. For example, I believe that the first broadcast was not a man, it was a woman. Yes, the first DJ was not a man in the 20s, but Gertrude Donnithorpe, broadcasting from Worcester in 1917, they unearthed a new clip of her broadcast. She doesn't sound entirely downstairs made servant, does she? I thought this was quite good PR for a podcast, for a small independent podcast. Yes, yes, very good marketing with people still love a factoid. Yes, a good hook, a good hook. OK, let's hear our final record breaker.

45:02Award-winning news innovator Sophia Smith-Gaylor has hit the back of the net again as she unveiled a new project aimed at saving journalists hours of time. What was it? I'm going to let Carly answer this one. She's the expert. Carly. It's an app called Sofiana. Yes, always good to name it after yourself. Yes, you'll not forget it. Basically, journalists can give it their article and it will turn it into a TikTok, Instagram, YouTube ready script, basically turning a journalist into a content creator with less effort. Do you think this is something that could do well? I think so. This is definitely not my area at all.

45:45But yeah, I think not everybody is a natural content creator. And I think there are, you know, you can see it if you scroll through TikTok. like there's you know there's a way of there is a there's a formula there and i think taking that instead of expecting journalists to have probably spent quite a lot of time writing their articles into like also becoming expert content creators like doing some of that work for them um feels like it might you know it might save some time but also maybe taking a little bit of the creativity out of it so yeah caroline your bosses say i want a tick tock of this i want a real convert it to a different version and i urge you not to give them any ideas well congratulations carly the winner of the quiz uh you can go and come up with an algorithmic ready version of the show for next time that's your that's your prize uh my thanks to carly steven and caroline frost and of course to alex audio network uh for this week's suite of music and remember you can build your own license for multiple platforms uh anywhere forever at audionetwork.com.

46:48That's audionetwork.com. So both of you, why can people keep up with your good work? Which social networks do you frequent, Carly? I am a terribly non-active member of LinkedIn and I am on Blue Sky, but I think I've posted twice. Excellent. Caroline, where are you frequenting at the moment? I'm still on the artist currently known as X, but I am enjoying coming very late to the Instagram party. Oh, good. So yes, Frost Reporter is where you can find me. Excellent. Thank you both. And thank you for listening and watching. Remember, you can check us out on our sub stack at themediaclub.com. Sign up for free and get a weekly update of all of our news and articles.

47:32My name's Matt Deegan. The producer was Matt Hill. It was a Rethink Audio production with video support from Podcast Discovery. We'll see you next week.

48:10We'll see you next time. and use code AUDIO to try ShipStation free for 60 days.

48:44Billy Graham became the Elvis of the Evangelical Church. That's Today in History with the Retrospectors. Ten minutes each weekday, wherever you get your podcasts.