British Podcast Awards 2025

0:05Rory Cellan-Jones: Hello and welcome to the Media Club. I'm your host Matt Deegan. In the club today we're at the British Podcast Awards at the O2. Well, next door to the O2 at the Indigo 2. Lady Gaga is our neighbour for the night. It's arguably one of the biggest nights in the media as the worlds of radio, TV and journalism all have a stake in this still young medium, all trying to boost engagement, revenue and reach for their shows whilst wrestling with paywalls video and various new opportunities. We'll chat some of the big winners backstage and catch up with some of the attendees. That's all coming up in this edition of the Media Club.

0:38Rory Cellan-Jones: Come on in.

0:44Rory Cellan-Jones: OK, so the awards are about to start, but don't worry, we've sent Olly Peart backstage to catch up with some of the winners.

1:01Coco Kahn: Carmilla, host of the podcast Kill List. Congratulations. Two awards, one night. I know. I mean, look, I'm not normally stumped for words, but I really am. It's kind of quite hard to put this into words. It's quite an emotional day. You know, it's four years we took doing Kill List, and I never really thought it would ever ripple onto stages like it has and to win awards it has. So, yeah, it's an amazing feeling. Quite overwhelming.

1:27Carl Miller: Yeah, I bet. It actually was going to be one of my questions about, like, how long it takes you to produce a series, to create it. So, I mean, how long is that? Are you saying that's taken four years?

1:39Coco Kahn: It took literally four years. I mean, and for anyone who's listened to Kill List, they'll probably know why. I mean, like, there were points where we genuinely didn't know whether we could ever tell the story. I mean, there were massive legal complications with everything. There was massive complications to do with people's safety, to do with the safety of us as a team doing it. So, I mean, there were points we'd sit down and be like, is anyone actually going to be able to hear what we've been doing? You know, doing in secret for all this time. So it was it was in jeopardy, I think, for quite a long time.

2:06Coco Kahn: Yeah, it really was. And so, like, look, I mean, 2022 Carl would be would kill to like know that like this finally not actually literally kill, of course. to know that we finally got it out and obviously to receive for it to receive the unbelievable

2:23Carl Miller: recognition that it has do you feel like these kind of investigative stories production companies are winding back on them a little bit and and not you know where's the money going to come from like you say to put put into four years worth of production to create something like the kill list are you worried about the future of these kind of shows yeah i'm really worried i mean like you know

2:43Coco Kahn: Insofar as you see the commercials of podcasts to essentially be attention capture, there's obviously much cheaper ways of doing attention capture. There's lots of other formats that don't take as much time, can produce way more content, and that people find meaningful and really listen to. But as an investigative journalist, that massively worries me, because our job isn't attention capture. Our job is to hold the powerful to account and to expose stories that are important for society to know about. That is the point of the fourth estate. That's why journalism isn't just another industry. It's why we're kind of part of a healthy democratic society.

3:17Coco Kahn: And you do see that kind of beginning to recede, you know, not just in podcasting, but in radio and in television and journalism across the board. Where the money is going to come from, I mean, ultimately, hopefully it will come from people voting with their feet. I mean, we need people to listen to these things, you know, and we need producers and companies to continue to back them. otherwise they will just like slowly recede away and the the kind of landscape people's

3:40Carl Miller: information diets will look a lot different you're working with novel um they have a bit of a track record of taking things and then uh basically making them into tv shows do you think this is something that might happen with kill list is that even on the cards for you to make a transition over to tv at all well i'm not able to talk about too much in in the news recently as well there's been you know thinking about the dark web and hackers and all that kind of stuff we've had recently as we're recording this hacking group which have hacked into a a nursery and like you know nicked all these photos and that kind of stuff do you think the kind of work that you do do you think actually there's going to be so much more of this that i can dig into yeah i mean 100

4:24Coco Kahn: i mean this look i've always been fascinated uh at this like intersection of technology and power and mystery you know and and to kind of try and both look into the areas of the kind of digital world that seem to be really overlooked and over and and in shadowed you know trying to expose people what they really are i'm also really interested in the actual technical art of investigative journalism and how you sometimes need to use all these new kinds of tools to really expose what's really going on whether that's kind of crypto tracing or whether that's what chris was doing in terms of hacking into the site for kill list so yes i mean more power and And therefore, more abuse is definitely moving into the digital world.

5:00Coco Kahn: We're definitely going to see more of our lives, you know, both shaped and imperiled by what happens there. And of course, therefore, journalism needs to move into those spaces as well. There's far more cybersecurity stories now than there was 10 years ago. You know, it's becoming kind of just intertwined in the whole of life. You know, but to go back to your previous question, the real question here isn't are there stories there? It's are there journalists that are empowered and equipped to actually go out there and spend the time to really track them down? You know, that's the real question.

5:27Coco Kahn: It's not that the stories don't exist. It's whether we'll be able to find them and bring them to people.

5:32Carl Miller: It's been an undercurrent theme tonight, speaking to people, that there's sort of a feeling of unease of how things are going in the world at the moment.

5:40Coco Kahn: Are you an optimist? Yeah, I'm a massive optimist. I'm a massive optimist. I mean, I feel like, well, I mean, it depends which bit of pessimism you mean, whether democracy is dissolving or whether the media landscape is sliding. like what I do know you know and I spend a lot of time both in conversations around the media landscape and also those around protecting democracy I do know that there are all these ideas and passion and new things that are happening to try and protect those things so I think ultimately democracies will prevail I think journalism will prevail I think both those two things will have to look very different to the way that they do now you know and we can't basically this is when we're getting into my role as a think tanker which is actually what I do a lot of the time as well.

6:21Coco Kahn: We can't defend the status quo. Like those of us that want journalism, want democracy, we can't simply defend the kinds of democracies of journalism we see today. They need to evolve. And that's the trick, is what journalism will look like. Who does it? Who pays for it? How it's done? All those things are going to change.

6:37Carl Miller: Well, on that note, congratulations. Enjoy the rest of your evening. Honestly, what a stellar win. Well done.

6:43Coco Kahn: Thank you very much. That's so kind of you.

6:45Carl Miller: Next up in the dingy backstage cloakroom was the winners of the Podcast Champion Award, Pod Save the UK.

6:53Matt Deegan: May, I'm the producer with James Tindall, who's not here. I'm Coco Khan, I'm one of the hosts with Nish Kumar.

6:58Jeremy Paxman: Joby Waldman, I'm creative director and runner.

7:01Matt Deegan: I'm Nadis Millianich, I'm the digital producer, so I look after the socials.

7:04Carl Miller: But I'll start with you, Coco, because I wanted to know how you are managing doing the podcast whilst having a small child. That's basically what I want to do.

7:12Matt Deegan: I'm not managing, friend. I'm insane. My body hurts, my head hurts, my eyes are constantly watering. But, you know, it's a politics podcast and becoming a mum. It's weird, actually, because I think sometimes the stereotype is that when you have kids, you step out of society. But actually, it's made me lean more into it. I feel more political from this act. So actually being able to work on a show and put that energy into a place that's productive is really helpful. And I've had an amazing team that have supported me coming back as a young mum. It's in like, my baby is young. I am not young. If you were like, oh, another one lost a teenage pregnancy, it's okay, don't worry.

7:50Carl Miller: Coming back so soon, did you feel like, you know, there's a responsibility on me here to actually just come back as soon as possible? I can't take a break from this because everything has just gone to shit.

7:59Matt Deegan: I mean, it's many, many different feelings at once. So yes, definitely the time is now to act in terms of politics. I've been really, in the couple of years I've been doing the show, I've been so grateful that I feel that other podcasts and other media is starting to, I'm going to say, fall in line with more progressive ideas um and being part of that wave is is a privilege but it's also a responsibility that you know i i wear heavily if i'm completely honest but at the same time you know children are gorgeous but they don't have great chat so it was good mentally for me as well um and also i just love the show the show is another baby and i care about it and i want to be there to see it grow so it's lots of different things all at once so yeah you've got

8:39Carl Miller: Two kids said that you need to look after. That's basically the deal. Mate, so with the show as well, since Trump got in, what have you noticed with audiences? Have they actually started to climb up? Are they coming to you for reassurance, just to let people know that actually everything's kind of all right?

8:54Matt Deegan: Well, I would say that Nish and Koker got approached to host the Stop Trump rally last week. So yeah, they're definitely coming for Pod Save the UK. I feel like, yeah, it definitely feels like a more important moment. People are like searching for alternative narratives because obviously the news is just dominated by Nigel Farage, Donald Trump. And I feel like we're really bringing something that's unique and different to that space. And I think that's something we're trying to do every week, is just bring a different type of politics to the forefront, basically, with our show.

9:29Carl Miller: JB, have you tweaked anything that you're doing with the show as a result of Trump coming in? Is there things that you've changed that you thought you have to approach things slightly differently?

9:39Jeremy Paxman: We're aware that headlines with Trump in them or straplines or show titles tend to garner more views, that people will click on stories about Trump out of outrage and anger. And it can be tempting to go down that route in order to engage audiences, because we are compelled to increase the impact and the numbers of people listening to the show, watching the show. But we try and mix it up. And one of the things about Pod Save the UK that does make it distinct is that we bring activists and social justice campaigners onto the show with pragmatic and optimistic ideas. And so it's a balance. We want to engage the emotion, which can be outraged, and sometimes it's right to be angry.

10:36Jeremy Paxman: But at the same time, we need to bring in glimmers of hope, of humour, and that's what Coco and Nish do every week.

10:44Carl Miller: Narda, is that the same with the social stuff as well? When you're looking for clips for social media, what is it that you're trying to evoke from your audience, I suppose? What kind of reaction are you trying to get?

10:56Matt Deegan: Yeah, so I think it's really easy to kind of, and I think there is a place for anger absolutely at the moment, but I think what has brought me the most joy has really been kind of amplifying the positive stuff that people are doing on the ground, the activism, yeah, the people that are kind of fighting for social change and yeah, that makes my job worthwhile.

11:16Carl Miller: And just one last question, your colleagues in the US, Coco, so how have they been impacted by this? So why do we have to keep talking about him? I don't know. But it must have been a monumental change for them. Do they feel like they're under attack? Do they feel like things are slightly different there?

11:32Matt Deegan: I mean, I can't speak for them, of course. You know, it certainly appears to me that everything that is the disaster of Trump is moving very, very fast. And seemingly every day a new horror is unveiled. The last time I spoke to the US team would probably be a few weeks, if not a few months ago. No doubt their feelings would have transformed in that time because things would have probably gotten, I'd hazard a guess, worse. but it was really clear on that day that Trump came in, it was noticeable that our colleagues across the sea were down, were sad, and I think they have every right to be. One thing I would say, though, was really inspirational was that after the initial shock and horror, immediately there was this feeling of, OK, we need to get up and go.

12:13Matt Deegan: As progressives, we are needed more than ever. Let's do some soul-searching, let's reflect, let's learn, let's get up, let's be fast, and let's take this motherfucker down. and actually from across the way you know because we had a labour win I think everyone thought oh we won't have to think about that actually that lesson happening is one that we can take lessons from ourselves and having our colleagues across the water be a resource for us to draw on what does it look like to inject hope into an audience that probably rightfully is in shock about what is going on or didn't expect it or is maybe even in denial about certain elements of it how do we do that so couldn't speak for them but I think it's fair to say shock horror despair but also deep motivation and incredible drive well temporarily just leave all the horribleness

12:58Carl Miller: to one side for this evening and enjoy the fact that you won the award congratulations

13:11Rory Cellan-Jones: from the newly announced hero uh Kirsty Nishma and Rosie welcome thank you very much so you've emerged fully formed this week merging out like goddesses

13:24Matt Deegan: that's exciting what what's the plan well the plan is i suppose part of kind of world domination with our podcast it's about disrupting and giving stories and opportunities to women so it's about recognizing all the stories that are not being told commercializing the huge opportunities that exist in terms of podcasting and its influence and bringing those worlds together so why this now I guess I run a production company, Story Hunter, and for many years I've obviously been pitching ideas and noticing there's a bit of a trend, Matt, I don't know if you've noticed, that there's a lot of men behind mics and not as many women.

13:59Matt Deegan: And we think women have stories to tell. And I know from creating Lady Killers, top ten BBC Sounds podcasts three years in a row, that when you create incredible female content, people listen, all people listen. Would you agree, Rosie, from your time at the BBC? Definitely. But also as a technologist, you know, like we're a very dynamic team. We bring lots of different disciplines together. We've built this intentionally as an ecosystem. So essentially we also want to give women, female creators at scale, the means of production so that they can go from idea to finish podcasts really quick. But still keeping that human element, right?

14:36Matt Deegan: It's not AI clone voices and all that. So we're really excited.

14:40Rory Cellan-Jones: So five to ten years ago, you could do podcasts in your bedroom. You could just get an app provider to shove some ads in. It's not the case now, is it? I mean, shows need a broader selection of skills to help them be successful. Indeed. And I think as a producer, coming from television,

14:59Matt Deegan: I think we've transferred some of those skills. But the barrier is really low at the moment, and anyone can make a fantastic podcast. But particularly around the Hero Club, we want to lift women up, which Nishma's been focusing on. Yeah, and also I think with the brands, there's two things. I think brands and advertising is becoming so much more sophisticated now that it recognises how influential podcasts are. So you go from what would have been kind of like a little bit of spare money on a podcast to actually being a bigger part of the plan, which means it gets invested back into creative. And here at Club is an opportunity, and we've been insanely overwhelmed by this, which I think shows exactly what's needed.

15:34Matt Deegan: There are so many female podcasters who are struggling to make it work because the access doesn't exist not because their contents aren't brilliant because the access doesn't exist the tools the knowledge and the opportunity so our belief is that we can build that aggregated community of women which so far suggests is very much there to be able to not only create a bigger audience for brands to reach but also be able to help up level and increase

15:57Rory Cellan-Jones: opportunity for female podcasters so you put a call out for women to get in touch with their is it with new show ideas as existing shows finding a new home?

16:07Matt Deegan: Yeah, it could be existing shows, it could be people who've got an idea. I think part of this was an intel of seeing how many women have podcasts. We look at the top 10 or the top 100, they're not penetrating that. It's not because they're not great. So it's, yeah, people who've already got a podcast, people who are thinking about creating a podcast, business leaders, founders who are thinking of doing it. We know that's a huge growth area. And yeah, there's a lot of opportunity out there.

16:29Rory Cellan-Jones: So if someone's got an idea and they want to get in touch where should they go hello at hero dot media hello at hero dot media thank you very much thank you cheers the media club is supported by audio network whose library provides music that is written recorded and produced with your production in mind if you've seen seth rogan's recent emmy award-winning show the studio you'll have heard audio network underscoring the humor drama and cinematic tension that defines the series. And they can do this for you, offering mixes, stems and cut-downs to make your story easy. Just head to audionetwork.com to explore their full catalogue and sign up today.

17:15Rory Cellan-Jones: That's audionetwork.com.

17:18Jeremy Paxman: Hello Media Club listeners, Patrick here from Podcast Discovery, the podcast marketing company, where this week we've been thinking about how to be superhuman. No, I'm not having delusions of grandeur, I'm talking about the Red Bull podcast with ultra runner Rob Pope, which we had the joy of working on earlier this year. After providing support for their virtual studio and PR, we also helped out the team with their British podcast awards entry, for which they won silver at this week's big ceremony. Congrats to the team. To find out what we could do for you, get in touch at podcastdiscovery.com.

17:52Jeremy Paxman: That's podcastdiscovery.com.

17:55Rory Cellan-Jones: Oh, welcome back. So some of the things we've been talking about in the club this week, News publishers who do deals with open AI have seven times the click-through compared to those that don't, according to the Press Gazette. The news comes from a State of the Bots report published this week by Tolbit, which suggests that this cherry-picking of media outlets is crowding out smaller publications. Advertising needs to address its diversity problem, while so says another report issued this week, this time by Channel 4. Standards are slipping, with 5 % of characters in ads featuring people who were defined as plus size, a significant drop from 13 % in 2023.

18:34Rory Cellan-Jones: And 4 % of ads featured disabled people, despite making up 18 % of the UK population. And five former observer journalists have pulled their redundancy to launch a new publication. The journalists, which include Carol Cadwalader, have launched a new venture, The Nerve, which will start as a twice-weekly newsletter with ambitions of an occasional print edition for subscribers too. Links to all of our stories are available on our sub stack. Just head to themediaclub.com. If you sign up there, you'll also get briefed on Monday update on what all the other media podcasts are talking about as well.

19:08Rory Cellan-Jones: So just head to themediaclub.com. Right, let's get back into the throng.

19:19Jeremy Paxman: I'm Rory Kethlin-Jones. I'm one of the presenters of Movers and Shakers, a podcast about living with Parkinson's. First of all, how did it come about? It started because half a dozen of us were meeting in the pub to have what we call a laugh and a moan about living with Parkinson's. And one of us, who happened to be a High Court judge, Sir Nicholas Mostyn, a very forceful character, kept saying, we ought to do a podcast. The rest of us said, what a bad idea, but he won us over eventually. And that was two and a half years ago, and now we've done more than 80 episodes, and we can finally admit that the judge may have been right.

19:55Carl Miller: And when that idea was sort of first put forward, was there anything else out there where people were having a discussion about Parkinson's or was there just a lack of that?

20:07Jeremy Paxman: We felt that there wasn't, that it was the great secret disease. It was in the shadows. And once we started doing it, people said, thank God people are talking about this because we've been ignored for too long. We've got this reputation as being something that only affects old men. And there just wasn't enough honesty about this disease, how prevalent it is, and how bad, frankly, a lot of the treatment is in the UK.

20:41Carl Miller: Has it sort of helped you going through your experience with Parkinson's? Has it been useful for you? Have you sort of learned things about the disease that perhaps you didn't know?

20:51Jeremy Paxman: Oh, absolutely. Every week is an education. I've ended up writing a book about Parkinson's, so it's certainly affected me. We get in the world's experts, we get in people with Parkinson's, we get in people with all sorts of ideas for better ways of looking after people with Parkinson's, and we have a good laugh.

21:12Carl Miller: Well, that's the most important thing, I would imagine. So what's next for the podcast? Have you got any kind of things that you want to try that slightly, I don't know, I mean, how do you record at the moment? Are you recording remotely or in the studio?

21:22Jeremy Paxman: We record in a pub. We record in the same pub where we used to meet in Notting Hill. It's not comfortable. It's not ideal. Our producer, Nick Hilton, does a great job of making it sound all right while all the noise is going on in the background. But that's what we do.

21:37Carl Miller: I mean, that's podcasting 101, isn't it? Recording a pub. That's kind of how they were all born. Well, look, I wish you all the best. And congratulations on the award as well, Rory. Thank you very much indeed.

21:49Ollie Peart: I'm Bertie Morse.

21:50Carl Miller: I'm sorry is this on is the camera on yeah camera is on we're audio people uh I'm Bertie

21:55Ollie Peart: Moores I'm one of the producers of the Ellis James and John Robbins show hello I'm Michael Dale I'm one of the producers of the Ellis James and John Robbins show first of all congratulations how do you feel about the award Bertie uh yeah really exciting like you don't often get to go up on stage in front of so many other like incredible shows and uh and and win something and it's just really fun.

22:16Carl Miller: What is the Ellis and John secret sauce? Like, they seem to be doing very, very well at the moment. Well, you know.

22:24Ollie Peart: What are the secret sauce? Yeah, I would say it's, you know, seeing as me and Bertie are the ones standing here, and I don't see Ellis and John standing here, I'd say it's us. They are on tour, we should say. And that secret sauce is probably that they just have an inherent understanding of what is and isn't funny. They've been in the medium and the industry so long that they know exactly what to say, even if at times it can be completely off the wall. And in turn, they know how to make something that's a little bit different, but equally kind of very well-paced. And I think that kind of natural, but slightly wacky approach to some things ultimately kind of makes them a really evergreen pair.

23:03Ollie Peart: And it's why the show continues to be really popular. Like even after we're long gone and in the grave, potentially they'll probably still be going and reaching out to so many fans of theirs.

23:15Carl Miller: What is your role in working with them? How do you make sure that you're getting the absolute best out of those guys? What's your route to do that?

23:24Ollie Peart: Well, I'd say it's fairly easy because they are so brilliant. They're like the perfect combo of the dad every man, Ellis, and the sort of interesting, how would you describe John? Interesting different man. Yeah, he's a man who specialises more in emotional heft, and that contrast brings out so much of them. But for us, in terms of what we put to them, the fact that we can throw them so many different random setups, whether it's a feature or a different way of doing an interview, we know that they'll be able to completely take it in their stride. So compared to, like we work on other shows as well, and in those you don't get the same breadth of options and features that you can do because the presenters might not necessarily be as nimble or just get what something requires in a certain moment.

24:12Ollie Peart: So for us as producers, it's really, really freeing. And we do another show with John where it's a lot more kind of intense and kind of mental health podcast, How Do You Cope? But he can take that in his stride in a completely different way. And so just that nimbleness allows us to go to them with some... It could be something like, Ellis, you've got 60 seconds to connect with a Welsh person that you may or may not know and see if you can find a connection through them. or it could be John talking for an hour about a silent retreat that he's been on. We can kind of give them anything and they take it completely in their stride.

24:44Carl Miller: Yeah, I've never known anyone to talk about or drag out, I'm going to say drag out, stories about hotels over weeks and weeks and weeks and the Cymru Connect, which is just amazing. So, I mean, it is very, very funny. What is, I mean, what is next then? Because you're like, I feel like you're doing so well, you're so successful, it's really funny as you say, you've got all these great features. Like, are you thinking, let's just stick to what we know, let's just keep this going as it is, or are you thinking, like, well, what are you thinking? What's next for it?

25:16Ollie Peart: Dave's probably the one to answer that, the executive user who's currently on tour with them, but I'll let you have a... Well, it's just, I think with them, you know, there's actually not loads of planning that goes into things, things just happen naturally. You know, Ellis speaks to people from Wales, and he finds a connection, we go, let's make a feature at it. John keeps going on about winning, we make a feature at it. So it's just, you know, it's just more good stuff from them that's coming out naturally. They're brilliant. And it's just sort of more of that. It's like it's as and when stuff pop up, being alive to that moment and making sure that it's kind of organic, really.

25:51Ollie Peart: We have commissioners saying, oh, what are you going to do for Halloween or for Christmas? And we sort of go, well, we don't really know. But the reason why people like the show is that feeling that it's not kind of all scheduled in months and months in advance. and just taking stuff on the fly and seeing where it goes and that kind of wider forward planning stuff. Maybe there's kind of general goals for the show in terms of like who we might want to reach and so on. But it is quite freeform. I think people quite like that.

26:15Carl Miller: Well, congratulations. I'll let you get on and get out of the cloakroom and enjoy the rest of the evening.

26:20Rory Cellan-Jones: From already always, we're here with Ben Carderite-Hughes. Yes. Your new surname. You just got married. Congratulations.

26:26Ollie Peart: Thank you so much. The first time with my new name and everything. Thank you.

26:30Rory Cellan-Jones: Really, that's the name of it.

26:31Ollie Peart: That is, that is.

26:32Rory Cellan-Jones: This is just like an extra thing off the back. So, some awards tonight. Loader shows are here always. What have you got?

26:42Ollie Peart: Lots of nominations. Secret Mum Club, Luke Jones for the Pitcairn Trials, Evie Pitcrawl got a silver award, Hell by Sex and My Boss got a couple of bronzes, which is lovely for our streaming into cinema. So the first time for a podcast. So, yeah. And the nice thing about the bronze award is that in a couple of years, I can just say it's gold.

27:01Rory Cellan-Jones: So how motivated is it for the team to get nominations and to come to awards?

27:06Ollie Peart: I think it's always nice. I think the main thing is always for us just to put our all into the shows and try and deliver for the listeners. But I think especially for the presenters and the whole team, being able to come together and come to these dudes is lovely as well. So, I mean, I would say I've been to the podcast awards since before I worked for Audio Always, which is a long time. And, yeah, here we are.

27:27Rory Cellan-Jones: It's good. It's good. Lots going on at Audio Always Some changes in the management Because you've been upgraded Which is good Also some new shows as well

27:39Ollie Peart: I'm not going to be able to reel off all the new shows There's probably more new shows than there were nominations for us tonight But yeah, me, Pete Linney And Sam Davis are now the new content director team At Audio Always, which is really exciting I'm working outside of London And Sam and Pete working outside of Manchester We've just brought in The Girls' Bathroom, which is a massive existing show so that's part of the audio always network now um joe and james fact up launched a couple of weeks ago in between us lads in between us lads they got into a fiat chinka quento i'm not able to say that that's good um i did go up to uh them and say oh have you seen the fiat ponto outside they were like what are you talking about um but luckily that's not my show that's pete um and also uh the the amazing jack remington and nash home which a lot of people will know from social media so we launched their show uh on youtube and all the podcast platforms a couple of weeks ago as well so i'm sure that there are others in the mix as well i mean video is such

28:33Rory Cellan-Jones: an important part of podcasting now um you guys are pretty good at that uh for short form and for long form yeah it's essential now for a show to be successful right yeah i think well i mean yeah

28:43Ollie Peart: it goes without saying that you need it especially for the type of talent that we're working with like you're not gonna be able to do a show with the in-betweeners and not have the faces all over it. I think obviously the challenge comes is that I feel like when Sexted my boss we moved into our little space we had curtains that were made out of made to look like bricks. Now we've got plastics that's made to look like bricks but everyone can do it. It's so easy that it's not just us. I think we got in there at the right time for Sexted that meant that we were able to get millions of views that translated to listeners and we're getting success with it and it's great but you just have to do it because if you don't do it then you're not seen.

29:21Rory Cellan-Jones: Ben great to see you.

29:22Ollie Peart: Thank you.

29:24Rory Cellan-Jones: And thank you for listening and watching as well. My name's Matt Deegan. The producer was Matt Hill with lots of support today from Ollie Peart and some video help from Podcast Discovery. I'll see you next week.