Convergence Is King

0:01Hello and welcome to the Media Club. I'm Matt Deegan. In the club today, TV on the radio, or And should that be radio on the TV? I'm joined by two execs that find their sectors converging on platforms like Spotify and YouTube. Steve Ackerman speaks to his three decades at Something Else. And Sony and ITV studios Martin Tricky tells us about his label, Zoo 55. Also on the show, can news outlets survive Google's AI overview? The UK market's regulator may intervene, but will it be in time? All that, plus YouTube, Plout of Barb, Substack lands on TV. and in the Audio Network Media Quiz, our guests defend themselves in my boardroom.

0:39That's all happening in this edition of the Media Club. Come on in.

0:47Welcome to the club. Hello to you both. Lovely to have you both on the sofa. Steve, last seen on the show, according to my notes, back in January 2015. Was it as long? No, I don't think it was as long ago as that. No, no, no. I'm pretty sure it was a more recent... Well, it was definitely before the pandemic, so it's been a few years but a student inquiry maybe well your membership hasn't expired it's not lapsed uh so who are you going to bring as a plus one this week uh actually two people if i can you haven't been here forever you want two people yes yes i'd already like that privilege i i would like to uh nominate ant and deck uh for obviously the recent announcement where they're launching their own channel on youtube their own podcast and um you know i'm sure we might get onto it but you know as you know i've been working in the states for a few years and i was really struck there about the how far ahead the states is compared to the uk entertainment sector when it comes to celebrity and influencer culture and celebrities and influencers creating their own content and owning their own content and we're just starting to see the early moves of it here and so i was very struck by ant and deck really taking what i think is is the right move but a really bold move as well yes this is belt a box like a youtube channel which will house some original content and their new podcast and their new podcast has just launched have you see have you watched or listened to their new podcast yet uh i i i have i think it's it's sort of it's promising uh no i mean you know it is promising i i would like them to un unleash themselves a little bit you know i think i think the joy that this format will give them is the chance for us to get to know them a little bit better as as the fantastic hosts and presenters and interesting people they are it's hard it is hard though switching switching roles when you've been you've been so good at doing one thing a certain way and now suddenly you've got to widen your horizons and and think broad about yourself that's difficult but these are really these are really obviously very schoolful presenters they're they're phenomenal presenters i mean i think the interesting thing to watch is then how they expand the brand online because it's not just about the content obviously how you can monetize that it's what else they might do with it in terms of products or you know how else they might monetize the fact they've now got their own channel and their own content so part of the reason i've been on for a while is you've been running so any music podcasts uh here then in in york for a decent amount of time uh and now you've left and you've come back to back to blighty back to blighty um what have you been up to uh well i mean i i only stopped working for the wonderful people at the sunny music at the end of last year so uh so so january for the first time in 30 years i decided to have a little bit of time off just to you know to sort of enjoy that moment so so literally nothing so so far but what i will be doing is um is is really consulting and working with a range of businesses okay um and sitting next to you uh is uh martin tricky managing director of zoo 55 that's itv studios social powerhouse how do you describe how do you describe yourself yeah i mean we've been described as many things but uh is it the growth engine of itv studios is one of them which scares the living daylights out of me but uh yeah we're the digital distribution uh arm of itv studios uh and well you get your club membership um uh who do you like as your first plus one uh so i i was kind of having a think about this and i thought it's who's who's had an amazing league well alex honnold did but that would be a bit obvious so i wanted to give a shout out to uh andrew sheehy who was the line producer on skyscraper because can you imagine he went to taipei and did the safety tech rec i mean you i watched that and felt uncomfortable for an hour and a half um so i think he just did an amazing job in pulling that together because i don't think anyone's we haven't really seen anything like it in terms of a live event it it's knocked it out of the park and and to the logistics are pulling that together uh unbelievable uh i'm interested what steve was saying there about anton deck obviously very kind of connected to itv now exploring digital world partly themselves as well um it's a strange old world isn't it for talent and production and where all that sits in the in the digital space absolutely i mean it's it's absolutely the right move for them to make um wish them all the very best of luck with that but i mean i don't know i think they might make They've got chemistry, I'd say.

5:04So I think once they get past the microphone, they might loosen up and just hit their stride. Watch these young lads. I know. They might do all right. Okay, in a moment, can news outlets survive the AI overview? That's all after the break.

5:27Welcome back to the Media Club. Will Google's AI overview destroy our commercial news outlets? The Competition and Markets Authority seems to think so. Steve, can you tell us what this issue is? Well, the issue is publishing outlets challenging how Google is using AI to help people discover content, basically. And, you know, in a way, it's fairly similar to the old arguments we used to have about search engines. But we all know that search is moving in a huge way onto AI, and more and more that just is the easier route to find things. And so clearly the influence it can have on your ability for your content to be found is quite profound.

6:10The other thing that's really tied up within this is the CMA, or certainly overtones from the Publishing Association, saying that Google has a monopoly. And therefore, if your content isn't chosen by AI to be featured, then you've got a problem. And the reason I think that's really interesting is because last year there was a very similar case in the States against Google where they were being taken to court and being accused of being a monopoly and there was a danger they might have been broken up and actually they won the case. And so I know that obviously US law is no precedent for UK law, but it's interesting that we're starting to see these arguments running through and these challenges happen.

6:52Yeah, and monopoly power is kind of forcing people to do things they wouldn't normally do. And what's happening here is publishers can't really opt out of AI search, or it's very difficult. So these are the snippets that appear at the top of search. You've also got other bits of snippets that appear. You've got whether you're listed organically. And if you kind of come out of one at the moment, you sort of come out of the lot, don't you? Well, I mean, I think we've got two different sort of battles at play, really. One is obviously about distribution and who owns the means of distribution, whether that's AI or any other means.

7:26And of course, the other aspect is the content itself and how you ensure your content can be discovered. You know, what are you doing within your content to help it be discoverable, to help it find eyes and ears so that, you know, AI will start to recognize it as something that should be featured. When I read the CMA's sort of response, it just seemed very fair. It's like, we just want some tools where publishers can control how their content's being used. and sort of the Google reply was, yeah, yeah, we'd sort of get around to this. We're up for that. We're up for that. We just have chosen not to do it up to now.

8:00Isn't this what regulators should be doing, Martin? Are they doing the right thing? I definitely think it's a question that needs to be asked. I mean, because there are two things, I think, that are at issue. One is by putting the AI overviews, you don't need to click through to that website anymore, which means that all of the ads that are playing on those websites are ironically being served by Google, but that revenue doesn't go back to the host. So ultimately, and we've seen this play out across every media outlet everywhere, is that if the people who are making the content don't get a fair share of the ad revenue, then they don't carry on making the content.

8:34So there's a risk that those that can't find a route to monetization because of this will drop out. So they opt out by not doing it anymore. Also, if you opt out, then you're not part of the game and you kind of need to be in it to win it. And AI and the opt-in, opt-out model is a much bigger debate about, you know, more than just this part. The other thing is about is about accuracy as well, I think. So apologies. I took the liberty of Googling what is the top media podcast in the UK before I came on. What was the answer? And it was clearly inaccurate because it wasn't this one. um uh but but in in all seriousness the the recently google have had to take a step back because a lot of the ai information that was going in the in the overview wasn't actually factually accurate so lots of people google their health issues um i think one of the cases was um what is an average uh level of i can't remember what or for if you potentially suffering from early onset liver disease and it was incorrect and people were making poor decisions on that so So there comes a point where if AI starts to hallucinate and people aren't digging down and going to the NHS or anything, they're getting the wrong information.

9:50So I think there's a both a monetary and a kind of accuracy question. So I think generally Google will and has to get round to working at a system whereby people can opt in and opt out. And if they choose to do either, there's still a way of making revenue on the platform. I mean, there's publishers themselves, a lot of kind of reporting that there's sort of an expectation that there won't be a lot of Google search traffic for them, perhaps even by the end of the year. Is that sensible to assume that you're on your own? I mean, I don't know enough about about that particular world to sort of to say, but I definitely think it could be going in the wrong direction.

10:29But, you know, there probably needs to be some course correction somewhere. Are you Googling as much as you used to? Would you just whack in to chat GPT? No, I'm not. I mean, yes. And I'm sure I'm the same as most people. And, you know, certainly for me, my AI usage ranges from, you know, fairly sophisticated tasks that I might have tried to do myself previously through to just, yeah, basic search. It was only a couple of weeks ago we highlighted that YouTube had triumphed in the telly ratings, according to Barb. But Martin, now the platform, this is YouTube, has sent a cease and desist letter, haven't they?

11:05They have indeed, yes. To Barb and to who else? I think it's Kantar as well, from what I understand. But, yeah. I mean, interesting, you know, from Google's point of view, from YouTube's point of view, it's because there have been some cross the line in terms of terms and conditions. It seems like a very legal thing, you know, a blanket account. And I think from the broadcast point of view, they have a slightly different point of view. I have to be quite careful here because I work for a television company in terms of ITV studios. But also YouTube is one of our most important platforms. So without getting into the whys and wherefores of it, to be honest, I was looking and went, huh, so?

11:49Because although I work in both industries, the barbed data didn't seem that important because it wasn't really comparing apples with apples. It's apples with oranges. It's a whole fruit salad comparison, to be frank. Because you've got, because I constantly get, oh youtube has um overtaken itv as this you know the most popular and now the bbc and i'm going but that's like comparing tv channels with with freeview it's a platform that you know the bbc and itv and channel four and they're all on youtube so how you can make these comparisons and also that barb the 200 channels that were part of that barb test uh australia 660 minutes It's Australia, Mr.

12:34Beast, Mr. Bean, you know, Lego. Why would you want to compare those things in the first place? So I think that this probably will be a start, but the industry probably needs to regroup, come back, carry on talking and then work out, you know, an improved way to do it. Because I think, I mean, I know that YouTube really values the content that TV producers make. It's essential to sit alongside the UGC. And I know that television and broadcasters, you know, believe that YouTube is part of the ecosystem going forward. So with a bit of luck, it'll just be a blip. I mean, Steve, sometimes this is just everybody would like everything to be in the same place.

13:20But is that just asking for too much? Well, I think you've got to think about who are we trying to serve with these numbers? And obviously, you know, really, I think the key demographic is is is advertisers and the money source and trying to make it as easy as possible for people to understand where they can spend their money and what it means when they spend their money. So there is there is actually a very good incentive to try and ensure there's some sort of uniformity or something that people can understand across these different platforms and areas. But of course, as Martin said, I mean, it is apples and oranges and it's just different ways of consumption.

13:53And actually that that whole YouTube number from a few weeks back drove me mad because we all know that was about, you know, what was it? Anything under three minutes or something. Whereas obviously most TV viewing is clearly much, much longer. Well, actually, most YouTube viewing is over like 10 minutes. Yeah. Well, staying with telly, Substack have just announced a new TV app. Steve, anyone wondering why a newsletter company would launch a TV app? Their offerings changed quite a bit, hasn't it, over the past few years? Yeah, I mean, I think this is a fascinating story because this is really, you know, I think there's two things that stand out here.

14:25The merging of ecosystems and the fact you've got someone like Substack who started as a written medium and is now moving into sort of the visual side. Patreon, by the way, also sort of going the other way and now having, you know, written options. But, of course, the other thing that I think is really... Well, just on that, I think I was talking to some Patreon people the other week and what they were describing their platform to me. it's like Substack and Patreon are basically becoming the same product. Well, I think that's right. I mean, they're both coming from different directions. But I think the really fascinating aspect about it all is the subscription model, because this is something that's slowly crept up within the sort of content and entertainment ecosystem and is becoming more and more important.

15:06I mean, we talked about Ant and Dec earlier, and, you know, that's going to be, I'm sure, part of their model at some point. And so seeing someone like Substack trying to make it as easy as possible for creators to host all of their content in one place is clearly a play for increased amounts of that revenue. Martin, we've seen Instagram launching a TV app in America as well, Substack too. Having more places, I guess, to surface subscription content, more opportunities for content creators. Definitely. I mean, the subscription model is certainly one thing, but I think historically there is a tendency to move to video.

15:41So I was talking to my wife about this last night and she said, she said, Google, why is why is video so important? And she and the AI overview came back and told me that it's because because it combines audio, visual and motion. And it's the most engaging and best medium for for information transfer. So that's why we're being filmed right now, because podcast has moved to vodcast. do you remember that the hoo-ha when instagram went it's not for photographers anymore it's not about photography and everyone moved to video spotify moved to video and in the same way i think i think all media outlets will tend towards that ultimately because it's an incredibly effective way of doing it that doesn't mean i think historically if you if you look back most forms of media uh have their moment but and they very seldom go away radio is still there Morse code still has its place but it I think there's a tendency to move towards video because at the moment uh that's sort of the ultimate uh form of media consumption any plans to launch any sub stack channels for ITV properties uh potentially not nothing I can say right now but potentially Steve you're a free agent there is a sub stack I'm surprised a sub stack has not appeared what for you well as i said i mean january off i mean look look i mean i think i think the other thing about sub stack i mean i don't think anybody would want to read a sub sub stack from me but but i think the other interesting thing is it plays to fandom you know and and it plays to very small you know people who can have really sort of niche outlets and actually monetize that in really impactful ways and of course we've seen the same thing on podcasting where, you know, small fan groups can still equal really significant amounts of revenue.

17:32And remember, if you want to snap to our sub stack, you can just go to themediaclub.com. It's free. We don't even charge you for it. As well as getting an update from us, you'll get briefed, which is our weekly update of all the topics being talked about in podcasts, in media podcasts all across the world. It's really good. Go sign up at themediaclub.com. We're back in a few minutes with more about Goalhanger and their new investor. See you in a sec.

18:05Hello, Media Club listeners. Patrick here from Podcast Discovery, the podcast marketing company, where this week we've been thinking about newsletters. You might not know that at Podcast Discovery, we also run Podcast Rex, our listener-facing brand for podcast reviews and recommendations. Over 90 ,000 podcast fans get our Great British Podcasts newsletter every single week. And we've recently revamped it so it's looking better than ever. Want to discuss the possibilities? Get in touch at podcastdiscovery.com. That's podcastdiscovery.com. Of course, we're not really in a private members club for media folk.

18:41We're at the Podshop Studios, where we record the media club every week. Each studio has its own distinct look and feel. And now with two studio locations designed to suit different budgets and needs, all professionally designed and fully equipped for broadcast quality video recording. Check out the whole range at podshoponline.co.uk. And they're offering Media Club listeners 25 % off their first booking so you can experience it yourself. Use the code Media Club. That's all one word, Media Club, to get 25 % off at podshoponline.co.uk. Welcome back. Here's some other stories we've been talking about in the club this week.

19:19The BBC has confirmed Tim Davies' departure date as the beginning of April. Named an interim director general, that's going to be Rodri Talpan-Davis. He's the current director of Nations. The search for the next DG continues. The most streamed show in the US last year was Bluey. The kids' cartoon hit the top spot for the second year in a row with 45 billion minutes watched. And that's not to mention the billions for the BBC in distribution deals too. Could that little blue dog save the corporation? And Goalhanger have announced a long-awaited investor, the Churning Group. They've taken a minority stake in the firm, which is the UK's biggest podcast publisher.

19:58It will use that injection to expand into the US. And as we mentioned before the break, remember, you can catch up on our sub stack at themediaclub.com. Sign up there for free to get all the goss from the Media Club. and Stephen Martin are still with me. Steve, now you've exited Sony, you can tell it like it is. What do you think of what the Goalhanger guys have done and achieved? Training Group's a really significant player. I mean, big move a year, 18 months ago when they invested into AudioChuck in the US. And Goalhanger and what they're now doing is just phenomenal. I mean, they are really turbocharging that business in a significant way.

20:34They made a lot of significant hires. You know, the missing bit for them still is the US market. They have it with the rest of history, which is a very successful show over there, but they don't really have much else. And I'm sure that's where a lot of the firepower is going to be targeted now. I mean, this is a business that is going to set all records. When it eventually gets sold, whenever that time may come, it's going to set all records or beat all records for a UK-led business. I think Conrad was on the show a couple of weeks ago talking about their membership. We were talking about Substack earlier.

21:07uh i mean their membership is doing you know a couple of million uh quid uh a month uh it's not bad is it it's well look i mean again i know a lot of people after that episode get in touch saying probably kind of bit of professional jealousy and like oh god we've got to get our our stuff in in order to well you know look i mean you know in my time at sony we were also big believers in subs and we've seen the the sort of power of that side and again it sort of goes back to the substat conversation we were having which is you know where i think podcasters have made a march on some of the more traditional broadcasters is this diversification of revenues and so not just relying on that ad money but building up those significant monies on the sub side and go hang of being brilliant at it what did you learn from your your time at sany music your time in america since you are now i've come back to the uk well i mean i i mean new york working in new york is a is an incredible experience in sort of every way and some of the you know some of the stereotypes are sort of true, really, which is just things move quicker.

22:05Obviously, you're dealing in a huge, huge, gigantic market that is just massive. And so decisions are bigger. Ambition is bigger. And I think that was probably the key thing. You know, you see both from companies who are trying to, you know, do new original things, as I mentioned earlier on the show, from creators, you just see a different ambition level and particularly the ability to raise money and turbocharge what you're doing, like the churning group have done with Goalhanger. you see that all all the time but are we just quite parochial here in the uk are we a little corner shop compared to their supermarkets uh well i mean you know a little bit if i'm being honest only because of the size i mean it's obvious you know the us is just such a huge market i always used to say that i think in the way that uh in the uk we often we're a bit sniffy towards europeans and we think they move a little bit slower slower and always seem to be on holiday i think the us has a slightly similar view of the you know what new york is to london london is to Paris sort of thing.

23:00What should, what one thing should UK producers in any form, TV, audio, podcast, whatever, what should they be trying to get their heads around? What in terms of taking from America? Yeah. You know, well, I think ambition and risk-taking, you know, the risk-taking culture over there is phenomenal. And I think we could do a lot better at it. And also just holding our heads up high and shouting a bit. I mean, I think particularly in the creative industries, you know, the UK is a creative industry powerhouse across everything, TV, music, you know, podcasting and we need to be a little bit more vocal and a bit more proud about pumping out our chests and i know we sort of laugh and a bit sniffy about americans being being a bit verbose in that way i think brits could we could do that a little bit more uh martin do we need more ambition more aggressive uh i think you're absolutely right in terms of our confidence and don't don't forget i mean you know uh take a show like love island which you know uh grew out of here It was the biggest streaming non-scripted show in America last year.

24:02And hopefully it'll be again. So we're incredibly confident about our creativity. And the UK has an amazing track record in doing that. And finding ideas, even if they aren't finding the ideas right here, the UK is still the place where we turn them into something that you can sell it to the world. and I think that we can still and can remain, you know, that creative pull that can spread globally. And, you know, we do it brilliantly, have done it brilliantly and should continue to do it brilliantly. And hopefully those conditions will remain intact. But I absolutely agree with you. You know, we have amazing creative people here and they're the envy of the world.

24:47And actually, interestingly, my US colleagues used to much prefer the UK version of Love Island than the US one because they used to say the characters were much better. Yeah, yeah. Although sometimes something was lost in translation, literally. Yeah, because we distributed that out. Because we were mugging them off. Yeah, yeah, well, exactly. Need subtitles to work for the market. Well, yeah. Z55 is interesting. I think it touches on a lot of these changes. You mentioned Love Island there. I mean, historically, a broadcaster commissioned something. They put it on the telly. There was maybe a little bit of digital alongside.

25:23It all stayed on kind of that same channel. But now we're in the situation where something like Graham Norton, which you guys make for the BBC, obviously has a huge sort of digital reach outside of the BBC. Yeah, no, it's phenomenal. That show is seen all over the world and is distributed. In fact, most people who've seen it haven't watched the whole episode of Graham Norton. They've just seen the cut downs, the clips, etc., whether it's on Spotify or YouTube or TikTok or even Netflix, because we did 15-minute cutdowns of that and that went onto Netflix because it's a show that, I mean, it has international global stars on it, but it's worked because that content works any way you want to go with it.

26:13But it's really interesting as well that when you look at, that has certain ingredients and you can see why it's it's great not every show has that in its dna great the graham norton show is different but but often if you look at the ones that transfer they have a they have a person at heart of them that people can bring you know buy into a presenter or a key piece of talent so if you look at our top channels it's it's graham norton it's uh hell's kitchen um river monsters jeremy wade right it's just huge in the fishing world that that's just and insane but but it's not just about the big fish something like that i i've never heard of that i'm not into fishing obviously it's biggest sort of participatory sport isn't it i think absolutely in the uk um can that obviously it finds its audience in the digital world and doesn't need to trouble the mainstream well i mean it came for it it was a show yeah you know that's been out on traditional channels but yeah but now it's like it's just absolutely everybody who loves fishing loves that channel pretty much and like even we do live streams of it uh in a stream yeah you know i mean honestly it's just you've got it it's full of puns it's found its place blah blah blah but the number of concurrent viewers that will watch a live stream about it also the really mad bit is so there'll be like there's a clip of um of this uh turtle that did 250 million views and this turtle goes out and and as ago one of the crew um and when you look at the bit the moment that is shared most it's a piece earlier in the show where jeremy is tying a knot onto a hook i mean what the bit that got shared was like oh that's how you do it so so you you you know there's some there's some broad appeal stuff but the stuff that kicks it off can be it can be really quite niche and uh and specific to the audience that loves it and then it'll break out from there without you'd have to give me the numbers though obviously you can if you'd like what's the economics of the digital side i mean when i feel like a turnover of a show is it like a one percent it's on the side it's it's just a nice bonus or is that becoming a larger chunk of the money that comes from those things absolutely depends um so to give some examples i think that there have been shows that I've worked on uh in in the past um whereby the digital revenues that were made from it were enough to commission more content for it so you know um there was a there was a show called it's me or the dog and it and it went there was this clip of a a dog looking at some cupcakes it became a meme it became a thing that channel took off and and it just became for a few years just the biggest thing because it's like badly it's super nanny and dogs uh what's not to love and and that that that show did so well that we were running out of content and the only way to do was to go and make more content based off the it's the same economics but but equally when you look at it that's how youtube channels that's how creators work they make enough money to go and do it and you look at the production budgets of mr beast they're bigger than anything else.

29:22So I think you have to just cut your cloth accordingly. As television has become, budgets have gone down, digital budgets have gone up, and there is a point where the two are going to be indistinguishable between each other. In fact, they already are. Well, speaking of high-budget quiz shows, there's just enough time for the Audio Network Media Quiz.

29:4611 years on, Steve. We're still doing it. Don't worry. I can't believe it. Three media stories connected by one theme and shoehorns into the format of an existing media property. This week, it's The Intern. That's because The Apprentice returns to the BBC this week. But can you unscramble the media story from these voiceovers written in the style of the TV show? And once again, Alex Audio Network has taken that flimsy brief from producer Matt and created a playlist of music to score today's game. OK, best of three. Buzz in with your names if you know the story. So Steve, you will say. and Martin you will say let's play the intern in the boardroom team Motord defend their new strategy online is up but live is down Mark, Gabby and Kelly have done all they can Steve, this is match of the day performing very well online and being very thrilled with the online numbers whilst the traditional terrestrial Saturday night broadcast and Sunday night broadcast go down a little bit Yeah, this was kind of the regular viewing is down about 10 percent, but digital is up a lot.

30:52And this seems more accurate than just a number you throw out. They seem like they are better catering for football fans on iPlayer. Is that right? Well, well, I think it's I mean, look, obviously a lot of this content, again, is going through through YouTube earlier. I mean, I think this is a bit of a red herring story because personally, I think when it comes to clips around goals, I think it's more about the appeal of the Premier League than it is about the appeal of match of the day. and I certainly know that I've definitely consumed goals on YouTube now since that's become available through the BBC.

31:22But great for them, they finally woke up that there could be more than just a Saturday or Sunday night show. I would just chip in though to say that there's definitely something in that. We started putting out episodes of Coronation Street actually the morning on YouTube on the Coronation Street channel. oh my god we're going to cannibalize the whole audience no four percent incremental viewing so i checked this morning today's uh episode did four and a half thousand people had watched that episode of coronation street um at 8 a.m when i was on the train by tomorrow that'll be a hundred thousand viewers that we didn't have before so it absolutely works and and you know i think you just get people want to consume what they love where they want and often it's different people in different places absolutely yeah okay uh here's team two team channel four has been tasked with turning around a stale food product their idea bringing a new face but we'll hurt yes martin uh this would be uh nigella lawson yes um being announced on bake-off good good good pick i mean yeah because especially you know two um national treasures previously who probably achieved national treasuredom if that's a thing.

32:37Status. Status through the show and I think this is a good bid for Nigella to reach that level so good on her. She's a good pick. She's a good choice. I mean I might can I create some sort of hate response online? I've never watched a full episode of Fake Off. Oh god I've stopped you there. Okay one more to go. The team's come up with the remarkably original concept of people sitting around a big table arguing with each other but there's a twist it's not on tv and it will be scripted what's the story format shift not on the tv maybe in the theater land uh is it the traitor's play yes uh this is the traitor's ip will be used for a new play penned by comedy writer john finnamore um curious It's a curious choice, but it's popular.

33:30It'll do all right with it. I think so. I mean, there's a long track record, you know. The Cursed Child did pretty well on stage. And, I mean, it's got an Agatha Christie kind of vibe to it. Who done it? It could run and run as long as maybe who did it will change every night. I'm not sure, but, yeah, why not? Steve, you watched Traitors, the theatre play? Well, I mean, I'm not sure if I'll go to the theatre play, but you know I do think it's really fascinating that with the traitors they've been really quick out the gates in terms of how that does get you know what are the spin-off aspects around that and obviously there's been this sort of experiential thing you can take part in as well and the board game and all those other aspects I'm sure it's going to do really well Oh that makes Martin our winner congratulations Woohoo!

34:14You get to go off and do a deal to take the media club into being a theatre show somewhere Okay I look forward to seeing the scripts Thank you to both of you Also, thank you to Alex Audio Network for supplying today's music. Remember, she can do that for you too. Just head to audionetwork.com and there's a link in the show notes as well. Thank you both. Where can people keep up with your good work? Mostly on any of our YouTube channels. And if you want to follow Zoo 55 on LinkedIn, that's not a bad place to start. And Steve, how about you? Yeah, find me on LinkedIn. And if I can help your business, DM me.

34:47I'm ready. He's available. And thank you for listening and watching as well. My name is Matt Deegan. The producer is Matt Hill. It was a Rethink Audio production with video support from Podcast Discovery. I'll see you next week.

35:23Mourning for Princess Diana, the nation stopped for Lord Nelson's funeral. That's Today in History with The Retrospectives. Ten minutes each weekday, wherever you get your podcasts.