Disney’s Doctor Who Era Is Over, Zandland & Sora 2

0:01Ben Zand: Hello, welcome to the Media Club. I'm your host, Matt Deegan. In the club today, what does it take to cut through in current affairs on YouTube? Filmmaker Ben Zand joins us to talk about his recent launch, Human. Also on the show, Disney Plus cuts ties with Doctor Who as it decides not to renew a deal with the BBC. What's next for the corporation's international hits? All that, plus we look at Sora 2 and AI's implications for the media. Who's in the running for the BBC's next mega format commission? and in the Audio Network Media Quiz, we zandland the news. That's all coming up in this edition of the Media Club.

0:35Ben Zand: Come on in.

0:40Ben Zand: Nice to have you both here. Rebecca, welcome back. Ben, hello for the first time. You've been busy launching a YouTube series called Human, which we'll talk about a bit later. But in the meantime, who would you like as your plus one here in the Media Club?

0:53Rebecca Cooney: Well, we're doing a show that's going to come out this weekend for Channel 4 with a YouTuber called Mike O.K. and he does like his own YouTube content he's just released a kind of film of him going around Afghanistan and I think he's just hit a million followers this week which is for a guy doing it all by himself I was quite impressed by that so I'll bring him

1:13Ben Zand: He can definitely join and Rebecca who are you adding as your plus one this week?

1:17Matt Deegan: Mine feels thunderingly obvious but Lily Allen so she's brought out a new album West End Girl which is about essentially the breakdown of her marriage and it's messy and it's juicy and everybody is here for it. Everyone's been listening to it. Yeah, I feel very sorry for her husband, David Harbour, who's about to embark on the press tour for the next series of Stranger Things, along the way to the next series of Stranger Things.

1:42Ben Zand: What's the bet they sort of pair him with a child

1:44Matt Deegan: in all of those interviews? Can't ask about open marriages if there's a child in there for him.

1:49Rebecca Cooney: Yeah, the one thing I really hope in life is that I never offend pop stars so much that they write an entire album about me. That would be terrifying. I don't know.

1:57Matt Deegan: Part of me wonders if I would like to have it. No, I wouldn't. I'm a whip. I say that. I'm a whip. I wouldn't actually like a diss track.

2:01Ben Zand: Does he have to come up with his own material and have a response track?

2:04Matt Deegan: Yeah, maybe, maybe.

2:05Ben Zand: I'm very sorry for Dave, who also had an album out this week that has somewhat been lost in the Lily Allen Ferrari. Okay. In a moment, why has Disney ended its partnership with Doctor Who? See you in a sec.

2:23Ben Zand: Welcome back to the Media Club. It's been a long time coming, but Disney Plus has finally confirmed that it will end its role producing Doctor Who with the BBC. Rebecca, was this inevitable?

2:35Matt Deegan: I don't know, inevitable, but certainly I think a lot of people have been saying it's not looking good. They're probably not going to. Like you say, it's been a while coming. There's been a lot of speculation, a lot of time. Initially, they said they weren't going to say anything, although it was thought they wouldn't say anything until after the upcoming series, The Land Between the War and the Sea, which is kind of the spin off series. but I think Disney have just this week said no we're not going to go ahead with it and it was an initial contract for 26 episodes which included the two series with Shuti Gatwa the Christmas specials the kind of comeback special they did and the war between the land and the sea and yeah they've said that's enough for us thanks very much

3:14Ben Zand: I mean it's tough for the BBC because Disney were ponying up a load of cash to make it work in the modern world and also bring it to lots of people to Disney Plus across the world, leaves them a bit of a hole?

3:26Matt Deegan: Yes. I mean, it was a lot of money. I mean, they've never quite kind of, but there was speculation of like eight to 10 million an episode. Wow. Yeah. When you think about like how kind of traditionally shonky Doctor Who has been and sort of, you know, BBC budgets traditionally, that is incredible. It's not ideal, obviously. It is, you know, pre, before Disney, what was happening? So Disney had the rights to distribute and to show Doctor Who on Disney Plus outside of the UK. BBC retained the UK rights because of course they did. It's their big flagship bit of IP. But yeah, Disney had the rights everywhere else.

4:01Matt Deegan: Now what that did was that replaced a bunch of kind of patchwork rights. So I think it was ABC in Australia had the rights. Basically different broadcasts around the world would pay for the rights to distribute it in their territory.

4:10Ben Zand: Who were all a bit annoyed when they lost it, weren't they?

4:12Matt Deegan: Yes, yeah. And it would be, again, like it's a big piece of IP for a PSB for any kind of broadcaster. So whether or not they'll go back to that or whether there is another kind of, you know, American company waiting in the wings that might want to take it back. I will say like as a big dorky fan of the show and I'm a big fan of Bad Wolf and so which is the production company that kind of took it on and it's not known whether Bad Wolf will continue with the production set from BBC Studios. I suspect they will, but I could be wrong. But, you know, I really love Bad Wolf content. I do sort of think when you saw all that money on the screen, you could tell where it had gone and actually perhaps some of the charm of the chunky sets was lost, you know, the sort of slightly wobbly sets, the tinfoil, you know, and maybe going back to, we can't show you the massive alien because we can't afford to.

5:00Matt Deegan: So everyone's going to wobble to one side and a big furry arm will come into the set and come out again. Like maybe that, you know, might help to just give it a little bit, you know, traditional zing.

5:11Ben Zand: Ben, Doctor Who fan?

5:12Rebecca Cooney: I'm not. I wish I was. I mean, there's many, many franchises that I wish I could get into and sadly just haven't. I suppose it's interesting for me in the sense of, I mean, is it a case of, sorry, I asked some questions. But is it a case, do you think that the kind of Britishness of it doesn't travel well enough? Or the story was kind of weak because they placed the money in the wrong places, as you were just saying?

5:33Matt Deegan: Yeah, I don't know. They placed the money in the wrong places. But I think if you compare, just to clarify what I was saying before, I think if you compare, say, that budget, although it's huge for a BBC show, compare it to something like The Mandalorian. It's just, it's in this weird in-between where it's neither on a shoestring, nor is it the big bangs and whistles that you're getting on the Mandalorian. So it was in a weird place. I think there was a combination of like, because there is a fandom for Doctor Who in America, which I think Disney was hoping to tap into. There's been some discussion about whether or not it was heavily enough marketed in America that some inside are saying it was, and some inside are saying it really wasn't.

6:06Matt Deegan: So there's that. And yeah, it was quite British. It is a bonkers story. I think if you're not already into it and you weren't already going to be like a big fan of, sorry. So he's this guy with two hearts and he's lived lots of iterations. and he just changes personality and person on the regular. And there's so much, oh, it's bigger on the inside, all of that sort of stuff. Maybe that didn't translate. Maybe it didn't do the numbers perhaps that Disney would have liked.

6:26Ben Zand: In some ways you think like it's the ultimate reboot because when there's a new Doctor, it sort of reboots itself.

6:31Matt Deegan: Yeah.

6:32Ben Zand: But has it all got just a bit too complicated to deliver to any new audience? Possibly. Does it need to just rest?

6:36Matt Deegan: I think the first Shuti Gatwa episode, there was a lot of, if you were a fan of the show, there was a lot of explanation going on. You were like, oh, I don't need this. And it's because it's for people in America who are just starting to watch it, just to be like, okay, let's just catch you up. Yeah, whether or not that worked, I couldn't say. And obviously Disney don't really share their numbers,

6:54Ben Zand: so we don't know. Is this a sort of the dance with the devil? You can get into bed with an amazing distributor and content company like Disney, but if they do pull the rug, you're sort of left.

7:05Rebecca Cooney: Yeah, I think it's just in an age in which attention is so difficult to capture, people are trying to find, especially kind of the more premium offerings, trying to find the way to compete in the places of the BBC. We have this in Unscripted, where it'll be like, can you get a co-producer on board so we can really up the budget on this so that we can compete with the likes of Netflix? And I think that kind of sense around the more money this has, the more chance we'll have people kind of get their eyeballs to it. I think there's an element of it which means that maybe there's less awareness kind of of the story or to be more innovative in that sense and more just how do you get content that you can get a lot of money behind.

7:42Rebecca Cooney: And then, yeah, kind of what are the consequences of that, which is, you know, the kind of Disney content isn't exactly the same as what makes a show traditionally a BBC show and the kind of beauty of a BBC show doesn't always chime necessarily with what Disney will be looking for. So I think that that is the complication of an industry where there's less and less money. People are competing with one another and a lot of that competition is around, can you get as much money for the show as you can so that the premiumness kind of flies through?

8:07Matt Deegan: Picking up on that funding point is worth pointing out as well. This deal was struck kind of at the end of that peak in 2022 when everything was great, there was money everywhere, it was going very well, and we're in a different world now. And I think that is probably part of the story as well, that that was a big investment at a time when actually, yeah, the investments are having to work harder now.

8:26Rebecca Cooney: It's interesting for me because I suppose so much of my mentality is how do you do more with less, having come from a kind of digital world. So in my head, I'm like, you know, you look at the kind of budgets for either that work in scripted, but even kind of big unscripted shows. And you're like, OK, that doesn't feel sustainable anymore. So it's like, how do you make more with less? With a Doctor Who, is there a charm in trying to figure out new ways to do things, but with smaller budgets?

8:52Ben Zand: Well, the last bit that's sort of left to be released is The War Between the Lands and the Sea, which is sort of a spin-off standalone few episodes. BBC have just announced that it's going to be on air in December here and on Disney Plus in 2026. Is it going to sort of really fall between all the stools because it's kind of at the end of all of this? Is it any good, do we think?

9:11Matt Deegan: I mean, I hope so. Like I said, I'm a big fan of Bad Wolves content. And I did actually go and do a big profile of them down in Wales the other week. And it's on the broadcast website if anybody fancies reading it. I got to go in the TARDIS. I was trying so hard to be cool and professional and I was in the TARDIS. It was great. I really, I hope it's good. I have a lot of faith in them. They are the company that did His Dark Materials, Discovery of Witches. They make industry. They make some fantastic shows and some fantastic big scale fantasy shows. And part of the conversation I was having with them is how do you make those big shows in the world where the co-pro market isn't looking so healthy?

9:44Matt Deegan: How do you try and keep that premium ambition alive without the premium money? So, yeah, I hope it's going to be good. They could do with it being good. I think the BBC could do with it being really good as well.

9:56Ben Zand: And also they need it to be good to try and entice someone to become, I guess, the next Doctor Who. Yes. OK, time for an AI check-in. And a new report this week suggests around 9 % of US news articles are at least partly AI generated. Ben, are you surprised by that figure or is it just the direction we're going in?

10:17Rebecca Cooney: that's just what they could detect i think it's the direction we're going in yeah i think i think these newsrooms are struggling big time in terms of finding ways to monetize and make and journalism for years has been in peril in terms of how you make money from it so i'm not surprised necessarily that they're using ai it's it's worrying in many respects in the sense that obviously if there's anything that you want to be written by humans and kind of fact-checked it's it's news articles. But at the same time, you know, I'm sure there's efficiencies they can make in struggling newsrooms when AI can help.

10:50Ben Zand: Rebecca, it was interesting that local news publishers were more likely to use AI than national ones. Is that just about people and how many articles they've got to make?

10:58Matt Deegan: Yeah, I think that makes total sense. I mean, I'm not hugely familiar with the American local market in the same way. But I mean, here, the local market is struggling. It is not what it used to be. And I'm sure people have noticed that, that your local newspaper isn't covering those local democracy stories. They aren't doing the same stuff. And yeah, newsrooms are just absolutely gutted. And that used to be the training pipeline for getting people into internationals. And yeah, it's really depressing. And I say this, you know, with a great deal of self-interest, I have two skills. They're asking questions and they're writing things down.

11:28Matt Deegan: And I'd like to do that rather than have a robot do it while I go and take out the rubbish. Right. And it's just such a, there is a world, I think, in which, like you were saying that there are economies, there is a world in which like this this whole thing about we have to get so much clickbait out we have to get so many articles out because it used to be you had a newspaper at the end of the day you had to fill it get it out now it's we have to be driving clicks the website and the way you do that is have stories after stories after stories after stories and it means that journalists don't get time to go out and do the good old-fashioned shoe leather journalism they are rewriting press releases now there's a world in which you get ai to rewrite the press releases you have a human to check them and then the journalist can go out and do the investigations the nuts and bolts proper bread and butter journalism.

12:11Matt Deegan: You can go out and do that. I don't trust people who own newspapers to think, okay, we've got three reporters. Let's free them up to do investigations and have AR. They'll go, oh, we've got three reporters we could sack to and just have one check the AI. And that is so profoundly depressing, as you say, what we want humans writing news stories.

12:28Rebecca Cooney: Yeah, that's the fundamental issue with that, I think, which is like, yeah, AI can do a lot of things. It can rewrite press releases. It can't go and sit in a local courtroom. It can't go and interview people on the street and understand what's happening. And as you said, yeah, that would be a great scenario. Maybe you can build some profitability by having the AI write press releases, though if everybody's doing that. Just AI talking to AI. But yeah, I also highly doubt that you're going to have these leaders of news organizations saying, you know what, let's actually just use the money we're making there to do this.

12:53Ben Zand: Well, one thing they might get into is generative video AI, new software from Sora 2, this is from OpenAI, this is Sora 2, released at the end of September. I think we're going to play a bit of it now. all.

13:07Rebecca Cooney: Sora 2 is also the state of the art for motion, physics IQ and body mechanics, marking a giant leap forward in realism.

13:23Ben Zand: Sora 2 there, and we've seen loads of it on social media as well. What's your take, Ben?

13:29Rebecca Cooney: I mean, it's hard. It's very, obviously part of it is absolutely terrified. You know, I'm terrified of the fact that AI can just generate videos better than I could create myself. Can it already? I mean, yes, definitely. I can't create a man riding a snowmobile in the middle of the Arctic. But I think there's two ways to see it, which is either it's a fantastic tool. It's like the kind of new iteration of Photoshop. It's like a way that we can create content. And the things I'm excited about by it are like it kind of eliminates that barrier to entry. if you're an average joe you don't have a major studio behind you and you want to create an animation you can now do that and your creativity can run wild that's quite a nice concept on the flip side yeah it kind of puts a lot of people's jobs out and it feels like it's an it's a major transitional period of which you know we stand on the precipice of kind of just radical change and we have no idea whatsoever is on the other side i mean sort of within a year the the will

14:27Ben Zand: smith eating spaghetti kind of mess has shifted into something uh that you can't really tell if

14:32Rebecca Cooney: it's if it's real or not yeah and i used to think you know well i work in kind of you know documentary and everything we do is all about the raw real human experience and i still think that's an element of truth you know like it's important that you can be there be here now but the problem is that you can just create a false version of that and you know there's you know sora has that kind of version of tick tock which is just absolutely insane where you can place yourself in these fake TikTok videos and it just looks completely realistic and also like it does the thing that everyone's trying to do when you're creating say digital content which you're trying to create a moment that's never ever been seen before which is highly highly difficult as a you know content producer to create those moments uh whereas on AI you can create it in a matter of seconds and uh so we're competing against something we can't win against uh which is terrifying you know so I think in my more optimistic times I'm like this is an opportunity to just be more creative and in my lonely times where I'm sat crying in my room.

15:26Rebecca Cooney: It feels like all our jobs are gone.

15:29Ben Zand: Rebecca, when I see a lot of the Sora 2 stuff kind of on TikTok, it's funny, like it's a great place for gags. It's also a great place for creativity.

15:37Matt Deegan: It is. It is. I will say like the obvious gags I find great. There's also people will send me like little cat videos and it'll be just be like, oh, this funny little moment. And then when you realise that it didn't actually happen, the cat didn't actually turn and look at the baby and go, what the hell are you doing? Like, I don't know. I feel like something is a bit lost there because it was supposed to be about, isn't this funny, this thing actually happened and it didn't. And of course, the more dangerous end is the disinformation, the misinformation.

16:02Ben Zand: I'm sort of surprised how little dis and misinformation there's been at a scale. Maybe it's just there are lots of little bits of it and people that can't tell the difference. But I think there was always the worry that there would be, you know, Trump has said this and then it goes viral. That sort of stuff has never really happened.

16:19Rebecca Cooney: well there's an element of that that's happened which is you know like in the israel and gaza war there's footage coming out that you don't know whether it's verifiable or not i think on the kind of large scale of did a president say this that's kind of reasonably easy to disprove i think it is in places where you're not necessarily getting the news coverage maybe in areas off limits and you don't know what to make of of the content and i think that point

16:41Matt Deegan: about it's not just the stuff that you see and you believe it to be real but it's the stuff that you see and you go i don't know if this is real i think the comment you see the most now on tiktok

16:49Ben Zand: and instagram is like is this real yeah or is this ai there's a lot of that it's also just great

16:54Rebecca Cooney: kind of pulling at our heartstrings so i think you know if you are a kind of political you know individual who's trying to use some master manipulation you can now create an ai video that really feels viscerally real like humans will react to um perhaps it's micro targeted

17:08Ben Zand: in places that you wouldn't you the mainstream don't see yeah i mean i think i'm i'm a little

17:13Rebecca Cooney: bit um in that position now where i'm just like i don't think there's anything we can really do about it you know we've crossed the rubicon um so you know i'm trying to get to a position where i'm like it is a tool for creative use and you just have to see it as that and okay it's going to take some jobs but also create jobs and hope that it's like is it a new you know a new revolution of kind of content and creativity and but it but it feels like this is a this is a turning point in in humanity that we have never seen i mean i'm trying to think of the there's a douglas adams

17:41Matt Deegan: quote about like anything that happens when you're a child or before you're born is like natural in the way of the world anything that happens in your teens 20s 30s is like exciting and new and the new frontier and anything that happens after that is weird and unnatural and we've gone too far and i think even though i'm in my 30s i might have hit my douglas adams point with it i'm just like oh i

17:59Rebecca Cooney: don't know about this i don't know i think that is a valid feeling you know you know i mean even like you know i've got a child he's very young and you start to think you know i'd like him to be a filmmaker that'd be great so i'd like him to do whatever you know be like what the hell does he now do in this space not just obviously the film space but in absolutely kind of every industry and i don't think you know even in the world of creativity it's not just ai video like every single aspect of it you know like creating decks responding to emails like everything is now starts to become pretty generic that's the one saving grace is that chat gpt is freaking generic you know like if i try and say if i'm like revision my documentary into a fiction script and then i read it's the worst thing ever.

18:40Rebecca Cooney: You're kind of like, this is so terrible. Or if you're like, write me a comprehensive treatment on this story, which I've tried, it's terrible. So it's like, it's impossible. There's aspects of it that I just can't do yet.

18:49Ben Zand: There's hope for us next, well, at least for the next six months. For the next six months. Yeah, we're all right. Just before the break, nine TV indies have been shortlisted for the bid to generate a new mega format for the BBC and NBCU. Rebecca, this is part of quite a long partnership the BBC have had with NBC and things like The Weakest Link and Traitors and Destination X have been a part of that. What are they trying to get?

19:12Matt Deegan: Essentially, they are trying to come up with brilliant entertainment shows that have the success of, obviously, The Traitors has been huge. Destination X, a bit smaller, but still phenomenally successful. They're trying to find the next one of those. And I think there's a lot of the discussions at Edinburgh TV Festival were about who's buying international formats that have been made elsewhere. So, for example, The Traitors was an example of that. But, you know, there's a big move. like we have a very creative, brilliant industry in England and in the UK. And we are trying really hard to come up when indies are trying really hard to come up with ideas.

19:46Matt Deegan: And so they you know, there's a feeling that broadcasters should be buying from Britain. And that's that's essentially what this is a setting out to do.

19:55Ben Zand: I thought I saw a post, I think, from a development producer, and they were looking at how many people had kind of bid for this money. And he sort of worked out that it's probably about a million pounds had been spent to actually get what the cash that comes the other way. We wouldn't get anywhere near that.

20:13Matt Deegan: Yeah, it's about 10 ,000. So the six shortists, I believe, are getting 10 ,000 pounds for development and then there will be a contract to make this show at the other end. Yeah. I think there were at least 300 people on the briefing call that they did and I understand there were about 200 submissions for it. So that's 200 indies trying to, or 200 ideas for shows. So, yeah, there's a lot of and that is a bit of a problem with development at the moment, generally, that, you know, the way in which sort of commissioning works is that, you know, Indies come up with ideas and they show them to commissioners and go, do you like them?

20:45Matt Deegan: And the commissioner goes, yeah, maybe have a think about it for a bit longer. And all of this money that they're spending, even to get to the point of showing it to commissioner, they're just it's just throwing like stuff at a wall to see what sticks or to see what will go through a hole this big. You know, if they just throw everything, something will go through. and that there are people in the industry going is this a bit wasteful or is this is this the best way we can be doing things.

21:08Ben Zand: Ben a lot of the chat at the Edinburgh Festival was about busy going for big things we're all now concentrating on big things things that can run internationally is that putting all your eggs in in one basket or actually do indies and small organizations just need a big show to pay for everything else?

21:25Rebecca Cooney: I mean I guess what you I suppose in terms of the development endless pain of of kind of pitching and uh you know that is the bane of my life for sure i'd say like um effectively what you need as an india's leverage that leverage it can obviously either come from a fantastic idea which is the you know great but also even a fantastic idea doesn't necessarily give you leverage it can come from prestige you've made the traitors before you're steven lambert or something you've made like so much stuff that you're going to be called every second or what we're kind of putting our eggs in the basket of is like create the leverage through the audience and kind of testing IP on a smaller scale, like, and then kind of build from there.

22:01Rebecca Cooney: So I think it's a combination of both things. You need like as best as you can possibly get, as they always say, you know, a returnable series that you can kind of, can help fund the company. But I think, you know, the time where you can just rely solely on TV kind of companies or streamers to sustain your business is just dying. You know, they're kind of consolidating, they're taking less risks um and you know so that that kind of puts you in a position where you're effectively a producer for hire for the rest of your life even if you own the ip on some of these ideas um and then you kind of have this yearly chain of trying to figure out what you do next how you do this so i think where the exciting elements of it lie are in the kind of creator economy where it's you know can i create formats myself is there a way that i can create a production pipeline to make this content uh you know for you know a sustainable amount of money that can help me build an audience.

22:51Rebecca Cooney: There's risks associated with that big time. So I think it's a combination of doing both. At the moment, we are family in both of those worlds.

22:58Ben Zand: Well, let's talk a bit more about that and what you've been doing after the break. Just before we go to that, were there any indies that we've seen have been shortlisted in this process or don't we know yet?

23:09Matt Deegan: Yes, so we do know there were nine indies with eight ideas because two of them were partnered up. So it was Expectation, who are the guys that make Clarkson's Farm on Prime Video, have teamed up with Plegazoid. So Plegazoid is run by a guy called David Flynn, who has some pretty major entertainment shows sort of under his belt. I think he was involved in Pointless, actually, as well. Probably one of the most interesting ones is October Films, who normally make documentaries. And they're obviously going, oh, actually, maybe we'll try our hands on this. And I think it is, you know, like you were saying, that companies are having to diversify into the creator economy and out of pure TV.

23:51Matt Deegan: I think also they're kind of going, well, we can't just be specialists. Let's have a little, I don't know about films particularly, but I think probably a symptomatic of a market where people are thinking, well, maybe we should diversify what we're specialists in and try something new, try something different.

24:04Ben Zand: And so much that is like people driven. Like if you have someone who comes to work with you who's suddenly got some experience, then you've got the opportunity to look at different areas.

24:12Matt Deegan: Yeah, you hire the person that made the, you know, The amazing thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, and there are some kind of companies on there that do have a lot of experience. You've got Bandicoot that make The Masked Singer. You've got Talkback Thames who made Britain's Got Talent. There's plenty of sort of TV royalty within that list. You know, we've also got kind of Workerby and Primal Media and Metal Mouse, Objective Entertainment. There's a lot of good things in there with a lot of shows. Yes, yeah, yeah.

24:37Ben Zand: Okay, when we return, Ben on What's Happening on YouTube.

24:49Rebecca Cooney: Hello Media Club listeners, Patrick here from Podcast Discovery, the podcast marketing company, where this week we've been thinking about what to do between seasons.

24:59Matt Deegan: You've probably heard that with listeners' habits, always on is the best way to keep people's attention, but that's not always possible.

25:07Rebecca Cooney: So what's the best way to keep your feed and your socials active while you work on your next series? To find out what we think, head to podcastdiscovery.com That's podcastdiscovery.com

25:21Ben Zand: Podshop Studios, where we record every week, has just opened four brand new super stylish studios in Shoreditch. Each one has its own distinct look and feel. Today, if you're watching this, it's sort of kind of loose women vibes, I think, studio here. There's also a mid-century living room, a cosy library, or come and join us in this studio. They're all professionally designed and fully equipped for broadcast quality video recording. You can check them all out at podshoponline.co.uk. They're also offering Media Club listeners 25 % off their first booking so you can experience it yourself. Fair warning, though, you might want to leave.

25:56Ben Zand: The chairs are quite comfy. But to get 25 % off, just go to podshoponline.co.uk. Welcome back. Here's some stories we've been talking about in the club this week. The Telegraph is sticking it to their potential new owners, publishing a photo of Redbird's chairman shaking hands with a member of China's Politburo. Is this enough to reopen the whole tortured sales process? Culture Secretary Lisa Nandy may hope not, but editor Chris Evans shows no sign of stopping digging the dirt. Oh, what next for Claudia Winkleman? Well, it seems a chat show is on the cards with Deadline reporting she's been snapped up by Graham Norton's company Soak Television.

26:35Ben Zand: Winkleman has stepped in for Norton on several occasions, but is she off to BBC One or somewhere else? And Spotify have updated their dusty old Apple TV app to let it play videos, something their main app has done for quite some time now. But it does signal something about the music streaming service's intentions. Links to all of our stories are available on our weekly sub stack. Sign up now at themediaclub.com. Ben and Rebecca are still with us. You've launched a new channel, on your Zanlan YouTube channel called Human, which I think we've got a clip about. Let's take a look and listen.

27:09Rebecca Cooney: The world has never felt more divided. How's that bee? They don't like to call us a town. What do they call it? A problem. Filled with people who don't want to understand each other. Why do you have the beef?

27:21Ben Zand: I don't play with these people.

27:24Rebecca Cooney: In this Zanlan original series, we're doing the exact opposite. What? trying to get to the bottom of why humans are the way we are. My name is Ben Zandt. I'm a documentary maker, taking you to places that you wouldn't usually get to go to. Welcome to Human Ice Hammer.

27:43Ben Zand: So I'm sure you've seen that a few times. When I've looked on the YouTube channel, you're covering ists, okay? So white supremacists, Zionists and nudists.

27:53Rebecca Cooney: That's what's there at the moment.

27:55Ben Zand: What's the plan with Human?

27:57Rebecca Cooney: I mean it's got many many kind of plans to it I think you know I think the initial aim from it like setting up Zanland the idea was that I wanted Zanland to be a kind of platform in and of itself beyond just the kind of producer and we kind of went through a few iterations it was like a first it was production company and then it was studio and now it's platform that's the kind of idea so I think you know like the you know as many people feel the kind of world of TV and development system is extremely painful as a consequence of people desperate to get a kind of radically reducing pool of an audience.

28:34Rebecca Cooney: Often they are commissioning more and more predictable things many, many times. So the sense was like, you know, there's a community of people. If we look globally specifically, you know, if we're not like pitching into the US or into the UK and we look on YouTube, there's a group of community of people who are interested in content that helps them understand the world. and also by making a series like this it kind of puts on land it's like the kind of window shop of soundland you can come see the type of content we make and we have been making content like this you know we launched kind of the untold series for channel four i've worked like the bbc video innovation lab and launched loads of formats there so it was like i've done this before that content's done very well let's kind of launch something ourselves and kind of figure out actually um whether we can build that audience around it and then the plan ultimately is to launch a load of shows with different creators and they'll be in different spaces you know it's like a food show a tech show uh all in the kind of zandland universe which is we go there you know on the ground content we show you places you don't usually get access to um all the while the kind of rest of the business of like you know we have uh the zandland narrative side of the business which is pitching to streamers and podcasts and then uh branded content uh will still exist um but yeah it's it's put our money where our mouth is and make some content i mean human looks like

29:50Ben Zand: It could be on regular telly. It's sort of no different to what you'd see on BBC Two or Channel Four. Was that the intention? And is that how it worked? Or did you have to fund it in a slightly more economic way?

30:01Rebecca Cooney: Yeah, I think the unique advantage I have is that I've always done things. I was kind of one of the first people at the BBC that would shoot, produce, edit, present. So I'd do about 11 roles in one from the very, very beginning. um and like so like this was just always in my head of how kind of content was made um and there's now a kind of growing amount of people who come from more like the kind of creator universe and they kind of sit in their bedrooms 20 hours a day making content because they love it um so like there's there's a lot of people who really care passionately about this type of content and don't feel like it's really being made elsewhere but they're also great shooters and they can edit um so i think yeah the content you know we we can make content you know that doesn't cost a huge amount of money and the way we do that in all honesty is just by it's just less time on the ground and the way the format is created is in a way that it feels deep so it's a blend of actuality so we spend about one to two to two days in places and studio so it's a bit like recording a podcast it's not like we're going there and doing like a kind of louis theroux show that takes six weeks to make and we're having returning characters you just accept that there's certain types of filmmaking you can't do but what i realized is actually just that sense around going to a place, spending time with people, we can make quite affordably.

31:17Rebecca Cooney: And then the economics of it are effectively, there's like a flywheel of content you can have from that and different ways you can make revenue. Obviously, AdSense, brand sponsorships, subscriptions. We have our first Patreon subscribers.

31:31Ben Zand: Yeah, so Patreon gets a slightly longer version of the material?

31:37Rebecca Cooney: At the moment, they get behind-the-scenes content. that'll kind of, kind of what you call it, expand as time goes on, you know, live events, merchandise. And I think, you know, the idea of what we want to be is we want to be the factual hub for this type of content. We feel like there's people being massively under say of that type of content. So we want to be the house for different talent. You know, my wife is a lady called Isabel Young who makes this type of content. We're doing a show with Stacey Dooley at the moment. We did the show with Uber Butler. So there's all these people who make amazing shows around and about and have an audience.

32:05Rebecca Cooney: And the thing is, like, on the YouTube space, there's a huge amount of people making factual content that if you just turned it up a notch a little bit more compliance a little bit more research into it would be just teeny shows

32:18Ben Zand: absolutely fantastic and also youtube have launched a new feature where you can kind of collaborate across youtube channels i mean that must be provide new opportunities for working with some of these creators to share to share platforms and audiences yeah and also collaborate

32:30Rebecca Cooney: with like you know we're talking to big networks at the moment about collaborating with them in exactly the same way by sharing those things and it's been interesting you know so like we've released three films and uh this is where you can play some magic with the numbers um the kind of films plus the social clips have had i think three and a half million views at this point the films are getting about 50k each right now which is like which is pretty good it's pretty good for a standing star and then the social clips are getting millions of views you know i think it's like and what's fascinating is you see in the back end how the youtube algorithm is responding to it also how the majority of people are watching it on tv you know and like the kind of that sensibility of like people are just consuming it as a tv show and i think the thing that kind of struck me was twofold one is everyone i'm talking to from the industry even big companies big companies are reaching out to be saying they're trying to set up a youtube channel because they were making millions and they're now worried about their future because they're commissioned to try and go up so you're like on the one hand the canary is out the coal mine there is a problem over here on the other hand the average consumer does not care where the content comes from they're not thinking is this on the bbc is this on channel 4 they're just thinking i want to watch that content so if you can find a way to make the content a way audiences can respond to and can find discoverability is everything um so with with the um some initial films what was more

33:48Ben Zand: nerve-wracking the episode in the middle east or taking all your clothes off definitely i mean

33:53Rebecca Cooney: the new this film was like because obviously they have to be quite quick shoots because yeah millionaires so basically like i had to i was pretty freaking jet-liked i hadn't worked with like half of the crew before i'm also the guy who runs the company and i'm like oh hey guys yeah so i'm actually gonna get my penis out um uh i like you you've heard of his little benji is everyone okay with that you know you can't get the back out right now um and also like i thought it would be a bit of a joke it turns out it's actually really freaking nerve-wracking like i

34:22Matt Deegan: was not that was terrifying i mean there's a reason that's the archetypal nightmare though

34:28Rebecca Cooney: because it's like i'm quite like a you know i'm like oh i can i'll throw myself into anything and uh i was honestly terrified yeah and also like you're kind of like the whole because also the jet lag just play you know makes you weird anyway there was a really warm bunch of comments

34:40Ben Zand: to that video i guess particularly from people uh from that community or people who are open for that community and felt like they were quite literally being seen uh that maybe they don't get normally so that must be nice to get the instant feedback as well yeah that's the thing

34:53Rebecca Cooney: and I think you have to kind of blend business with purpose in life. And I think like, I genuinely, I do think the world is at times pretty terrible at the moment. And I think our ability to understand each other and listen to each other is just radically diminishing. So it's kind of like, I just want to make content. I want to prove that you can make important, factual content that is entertaining and doesn't screw people over. That is profitable. You know, that's basically my mission. I'll happily go bankrupt doing it. Maybe I will. I don't think I will, but let's see. so that's that's the thing is like that's the drive and also a new podcast release so episode

35:27Ben Zand: two of your podcast with uh stacy dooley has just come out what's it like joining the podcast

35:32Rebecca Cooney: community it's brilliant yeah and i think i think that is kind of demonstrates the benefit of something like human in the sense of like oh there's residual benefits of kind of being in the digital space in the sense of like okay you know like uh how do you create a show that has those same values that's kind of human is trying to have like uh reasonable rational conversations and is informative and Channel 4 wanted to participate.

35:56Ben Zand: Yeah, so it's a Channel 4 commission. It's on Channel 4's documentaries, YouTube channel. What did they want from you?

36:02Rebecca Cooney: They wanted a show that could help untangle the world. That's informed, but informal. That's the premise of it. So I think like, you know, and Stacey's a friend of mine. And, you know, I got married last year. She came to my wedding. A few months after that, Channel 4 kind of sent out, kind of mentioned to me this might be something they were open to so I kind of went away with the team and thought about it for a while we actually chose the name on Tangled then we thought it was not going to you know you never think of that or the deck is going to be the actual name and I think it's been fascinating and it's our kind of first foray into the weekly podcast space we've done podcasts before and it's great also very tiring it turns out doing weekly podcasts

36:39Ben Zand: finding those times to record it's complex when you're quite busy okay thanks Ben just enough time for the Audio Network media quiz

36:51Ben Zand: Let's see how much attention our guests have been paying to the media news this week. And the quiz is called Media Land, in honour of you being here. We heard a clip earlier from Human, Ben's new series. And what we've done is to channel that energy into a quiz format. Three more media stories from the past seven days, which I'll pitch as future installments of Human. Ben, you can decide whether they're for you or maybe not. And once again, Alex at Audio Network has bravely taken the brief and created a playlist of music to score today's game. You'll buzz in with your name if you know the answer.

37:29Ben Zand: So Rebecca, you'll say? Rebecca. And Ben, you'll say? Ben. Let's play Media Land. He fought for freedom, for the right to be left alone by a press that was out of control. But after a recent libel case is settled out of court, he is in danger, becoming the thing he despises most.

37:49Matt Deegan: Rebecca.

37:50Ben Zand: Yes.

37:50Matt Deegan: This is Steve Coogan, lost a libel suit against him and his company Baby Cow, about the film they made about the discovery of the skeleton of Richard I under the car park in Leicester. so they made this film The Lost King and he played a colleague of the woman who sort of led the investigation at the University of Leicester and he played the part which would have been fine but then he also wrote it and one of the co-production companies and essentially they made this academic out to be kind of this fusty, patronising sexist kind of man who stands in our heroine's way and how true that is well a court said no that probably isn't what happened actually so you have to pay him money for making him look bad so yeah and obviously as you mentioned Steve Coogan was at the kind of the centre of the hacked off movement sort of against after the phone hacking and the Murdoch press yeah and he's he's made dramas sort of you know sort of dramatising elements of the the big inquiries that happened after that so yeah it's been an interesting one it's sweet yeah it's been slightly snide responses on social media which i kind of think i don't know i think yeah phone hacking wasn't great guys they really shouldn't have been doing it so um but yes he's uh he's obviously fallen foul of libel which you know some of the laws that he was involved in in what i some of the the issues that he was involved in protesting against were falling

39:21Ben Zand: foul of libel laws as well ben good doc in that story do you think uh the way we do that story

39:26Rebecca Cooney: is that you'd have to kind of because the whole thing around human is you want to see life happening on camera. We want to see change happening on camera. So we'd need to be with Steve Coogan as he's going actually through the libel case. So if he was happy to do that, see the highs and lows, and I could spend a few days with him, then for sure.

39:41Ben Zand: We'll just recreate an AI. It'll be fine. Okay. Number two. It was the biggest hoax of the 1990s, but is one production company, in pursuit of the truth, about to be hoaxed again?

39:55Rebecca Cooney: Ben, is this Mindhouse's Alien? Yes. Okay.

40:00Ben Zand: So this is Louis Theroux's Minehouse Productions is being sued by the director of Alien Autopsy, the movie, claiming copyright infringement. Minehouse are working with the film's original producer on a project for Sky. Thorny one, Rebecca.

40:16Matt Deegan: Yes. So it seems to be so he was working with the producer on this documentary about this kind of fake autopsy documentary that came out in 1995. and the director, I believe, has got involved and said, it's not quite clear what the legal concerns are. There seems to be some idea of like copyright theft or, yeah, it's not quite clear what the issue is, but the director is taking them to court over it.

40:42Ben Zand: Ben, are legal issues a worry when you're putting these things together or people have bought new ideas? Do you worry about what's the background of that when it comes to you?

40:52Rebecca Cooney: I'd say they're increasingly a worry because it's so competitive to try and get these stories. You know, if you're trying to pitch a true crime story or a limited series to kind of one of these big streamers, there'll be about 500 other companies trying to do the same thing and everyone will own an aspect of the story or someone might have life rights to this character or that character. So, yeah, they're increasingly complicated.

41:13Ben Zand: OK, one more to go. A media storm is brewing. A podcast interview brings a backlash, prompting its high-profile sponsor to pull out, Can the Host.

41:24Rebecca Cooney: We covered this on our podcast on Spotify. You can listen to it. But yeah, this is Louis Theroux and Bob Villain.

41:31Ben Zand: Yeah, so Louis Theroux again. His podcast sponsor, British Airways, paused to their sponsorship after an interview with Bob Villain. He was the singer at the centre of that Glastonbury issue over the summer. You talk about it on the podcast. As people who make this content, so much of it is supported by sponsors now. Is it a worry that BA can wade into it or are they just protecting their own brand?

41:56Rebecca Cooney: Yeah, I mean, as you said, I spoke about this with Stacey on Untangled. And she made the kind of good point around, you know, brands, I suppose, can choose where they place their money. I think what's worrying about it is as the industry changes and as many people like to say, brands are becoming the new commissioners. That's part of the worry with it. I mean, the reality is places like Netflix or Disney will also have their own opinions on what should be on their platforms. And I think it's the value of public service broadcasters and like a kind of an ability to make content that wouldn't necessarily be allowed elsewhere.

42:26Rebecca Cooney: But yeah, when I saw this story, I had two responses, which is one, it's interesting that BA even chose to get involved at that point because it kind of created a media storm in and of itself. I listened to that.

42:36Ben Zand: Why did anyone need to talk about it?

42:38Rebecca Cooney: I had no idea that BA were even like a sponsor on that. It was just like, so it's kind of confusing. And then you pull a buck and you're like, I mean, if anyone's going to have that conversation, you'd want Louis Theroux to have that conversation. He can challenge people very adequately. So a bit of an unusual position to take, I think.

42:52Ben Zand: Is it just bad media planning by BA?

42:55Matt Deegan: But that was kind of my thought. It's like, why would you like what were you expecting from a Louis Theroux interview or documentary? Like if he'd been interviewing the Westboro Baptist Church, that is overtly political and controversial and likely to come out with statements that people are going to find hurtful. He's interviewed white supremacists before.

43:10Ben Zand: Did they just think it's a celebrity interview show and that they were going to be safe?

43:15Matt Deegan: I mean, maybe, but that suggests they've never encountered Louis Theroux before, which is impressive at this point in the media landscape. I mean, I suspect they got complaints. Yes, but it's sort of just panicking.

43:27Ben Zand: Like, if we don't distance ourselves, we're going to get a social media backlash. Is it trying to get out of it before you're cancelled?

43:34Matt Deegan: Yeah, and maybe they've had complaints. Somebody's phoned them directly rather than publicly.

43:38Rebecca Cooney: But who doesn't get complaints for anything? I thought that was the most intriguing aspect of it, which it felt like bad kind of PR, I mean, bad managing of their kind of public relations in that sense. And yeah, and obviously as a guy who runs an independent media company that's making its own content, you look at that and you think, okay, it's a difficult world to navigate, of course, because there's always going to be restrictions from these brands.

44:02Ben Zand: Well, Ben, you've won the quiz. Congratulations. As a special prize, you get to pitch our ideas for your platform to everybody else and then we can get 50 % of the IP. Great. That's a great deal.

44:14Rebecca Cooney: Excellent.

44:15Matt Deegan: Can I be on as a consultant?

44:16Ben Zand: Yeah, okay, brilliant.

44:17Rebecca Cooney: You want 33, 33, 33. Sounds great.

44:19Ben Zand: Associate producer, easy, easy, easy. Thank you to both of you for joining me today. Also, thank you to you for listening and watching. Remember, if you want to find out more about what we're doing on The Media Club, head to our sub stack at themediaclub.com. And also, thank you to Alex at Audio Network. who scored today's quiz. If you want Alex to score your next production, head to audionetwork.com. Okay, before we go, how can people keep up with your good work, Rebecca?

44:48Matt Deegan: You can find me on broadcastnow.co.uk. Like I said, I've got a big profile of Bad Wolf there at the moment. I'm also on, I'm not really using X anymore, to be honest, but Blue Sky as Rebecca K Cooney and Instagram as Any Name But Becky. Good.

45:05Rebecca Cooney: Excellent. yeah and you can follow me at Benjamin Zan and you can follow Zanlan's work at Zanlan and on the Zanlan YouTube channel and you can also listen to Untangled right now on Channel 4 and on Spotify

45:16Ben Zand: excellent thank you both my name is Matt Deegan the producer is Matt Hill it was a Rethink Audio production with visual support from Podcast Discovery I'll see you next week