Enter the Metrics: What Counts As A ‘Play’ These Days?

0:01Hello, welcome to the Media Club. I'm Matt Deegan in the club today. When is a play not a play or a download not a download? As Spotify updates analytics, we take a look at how YouTube, Apple and others define what we monetize. Elsewhere, the BBC outlines where the axe will fall. Broadcast consultant Paul Robinson, a veteran of both the BBC and the Media Club, tell us more. Also on the podcast, who's training the next generation of content makers? Prince Taylor, executive producer Latent. pictures on whether high-end tv training is actually in good shape all that plus the government ban social media for the under 16s is this the moment kids platforms have been waiting for and in the audio network media quiz three more media stories where reality is up for grabs that's all happening in this edition of the media club come on in

0:53hello both hello hello nice to have you here um welcome prince but first welcome back uh to broadcast consultant paul robinson stints at radio one disney talk uh and as a returning member of course you get a plus one who are you adding into the club this all right i need to find another word for veteran though i'm not so keen on the word veteran we need a different word there um i was really interested by a story this week uh about a collaboration between tomb boom and the banerjay kids and family and this is really about developing uh ai animation in an ethical way you not only thinking about it in terms of the quality and jobs and editorial quality, but also the legal issues.

1:33And I did a deal a couple of weeks ago with a company in America to do some work for them using their IP. And the contract that came back with the protections against AI were just phenomenal. 20 odd pages just on AI and legal issues. So I thought it was very interesting. So this is two people to nominate, if I may. uh colin bohm who is the ceo of toon boom and ben wide sabatini who is the ceo of bananjay kids and family and so bananjay are going to provide content and and other sort of ip to work on and toon boom are going to share all their um uh their their new code and their new um software and they're going to test it together and hopefully come forward with a new standard for the industry so it's a bit more is that to make shows or to make or to plan how they're going to work it's designed to be a toolkit for making shows okay yeah so in other words you know how do you for example manage the transition from uh script to um storyboard to animatic to production to post you know and do so in a way you're not infringing copyrights that you're actually not putting better work producing high quality you know getting all the good things out of ai not the bad things yeah well two interesting people to talk about that in the club uh excellent additions uh and making his media club debut uh prince taylor at latent pictures uh prince you're officially a club member who would you like to bring along as your plus one i want to nominate oxford scientific production company okay i know it's not a person they can have a group pass that's okay yeah i i saw their documentary at sheffield dockfest on a weekend uh skyclamber scaling the Eiffel Tower and it's for me it's such a provocative documentary to try and make at this specific time and they absolutely nailed it and the editor is my best friend.

3:25Do you want to give him a name check? Yeah, Marsden Mirosin. Okay and so I guess cinematography is quite a big part of that doc as well? Oh yeah, wow like when you talk about risk, managing risk on a project they absolutely nailed it like everyone got away scot-free how yeah um have you guys been watching the world cup prince have been watching it so far when i can you know it was the first time i came across the whole 3d thing like being able to get the different views is it on the bbc website where you can sort of pick a player and yeah see what they can see yeah it was fascinating it was really fascinating and then i saw something on socials today uh someone had screen recorded a the sequence of erling harland running towards the goalkeeper when he scored the second goal uh scary it is always interesting paul isn't it every every world cup there are some new toys there's some old toys you've got you've got that on one end and you've got like emma hayes and her blackboard uh on the other yeah i think the bbc do need to show leadership in technology and they're very good i mean bbc r &d is a pretty smart bunch of people i agree i love the 3d thing i tried to do the thing with harry kane where you can actually look through a player's eyes i didn't get it quite right i think i would have missed the goal if i'd been you know that goal afterwards at 41 minutes i would have missed um the other thing i noticed actually about the bbc and i was so pleased to see this and i guess in the context what we're going to discuss later really important and that was they based everything in media city and salt yeah rather than having, you know, God knows how many trucks and goodness knows how many people in the US and obviously with three countries involved.

5:05I mean, my God, that'd be ridiculous. I mean, they've had a bit of pushback to that, that they should be there. Is it just their, whatever decision they make, they're in a bad place? I mean, people don't like change. I guess you can argue, you know, I mean, I guess people like to travel, don't they? I mean, you want to go to America and have a trip and do your broadcasting for America and not do the World Cup, you know, in Manchester. Lovely Manchester is, though, of course. But I mean, it's the right decision for the BBC. I don't think it's affected the editorial coverage at all. And it's obviously made it much greener and much cheaper.

5:34So tick to the BBC for that. Right. As mentioned in a moment, the BBC programs that are facing the axe. See you in a sec.

5:57Vanta is the platform used by over 16 ,000 fast-moving companies like Ramp, Cursor, and Harvey, who are shaping the future with AI and staying ahead of AI risk. Get started at Vanta.com.

6:18Welcome back to the Media Club. New Director General Matt Britton has told BBC staff that he's going to cut commissioning spending by 80 million pounds cancelling programs and reviewing its broadcast channels and radio networks as audiences move online uh paul is this the moment a linear channel gets gets switched off well the first thing i'm going to say is matt britain's only been in the job six weeks and my goodness me this was a big announcement and a lot of change and you know what i mean i love the bbc i want the bbc to survive and be strong so i really welcome this um and obviously it's part of a 500 million pound package of cuts, which, you know, is 500 million pounds every year.

7:00It's not 500 million pounds over three years, although it was taken three years to get there. It's still only 10 % of total budget. So, you know, it's a lot, but it's not ridiculous. But what has been interesting is the decisions about what they've done in this first phase. I mean, I think the second phase, which is going to be middle management and support functions and non-editorial and non-news is going to be interesting. But I must say I was quite surprised by the depth and the severity of the news cuts. I mean, certainly when I was at the BBC, you know, we used to discuss Radio 4 and news and we were always talking about saving money.

7:41I mean, I did the charter renewal, you know, a couple of times. Always talking about saving money and you've got to do it because the government want to see that. So, you know, the charter's got another year to run, runs out December 31st, 2027. but I mean to cut you know so many Radio 4 programs to cut Radio 5 live breakfast you know wow I mean incredible incredible changes which I've never seen before in the BBC Radio 4 was always the protected species it seems like it's no longer protected. Prince do you think it's BBC's due to think differently about how they put their content together? I think yeah it takes a real amount of gumption to make a decision like that having so recently come into post um but you can only hope that it creates space for the evolution of what the bbc needs to become in order to meet the needs of the world that they're serving right now you know um the stat about like there's a 14 to 16 percent delta differential between the people who pay um license fees and the people who watch bbc uh that's nuts and it has such a massive impact on how bbc is able to fund and most importantly you know you referred to earlier about pioneering with tech you know being able to divest and ensure that they're continuing to give the best in class service but also keep a finger on the pulse of what's emergent and and how to make that accessible so i only hope that good things come out of it and paul prince is right isn't it you can't it's very easy to just focus on the cut side but you've also got to develop a new business at the same time yeah i mean the bbc's got to think what it is i mean there's obviously been a lot of debate for years and most recently with this government about the funding mechanic and lots of things have been you know looked at you know subscription and going online completely um advertising hybrid mix and they've come back to the license fee um surprise surprise well yes i mean if i had to have bet what would happen i imagine the license fee will continue i'd have put at least a half a sandwich on i think you know the bbc obviously love the license fee because it's money everywhere but it's also quite an important thing and that is it does oblige the bbc to be universal in other words to provide content for everybody and if the bbc is going to truly be accepted by you know us the public you know needs to provide something for everybody and that's really important so the license fee forces that um but there's no doubt that unfortunately a lot of people are churning out of the license fee particularly younger households who are choosing not to watch i player not to watch any broadcast television just watching netflix disney plus whatever you know or social media and not paying the license fee so the bbc has got to um cut its cloth accordingly but i think it's also you know back to your point prince i do agree you know what is the strategy going forward we haven't heard anything about the strategy from matt yeah i'd like to know what sort of bbc he sees for the future because ideally what you should do i think is define the strategy first then decide how the organization should be to deliver that strategy and then make the cuts and this is all about cuts which sort of sounds a bit like it's trying to serve the government rather than serve the needs of the license fee payers and what do you think should be on on matt's list what do you think you should be thinking about there's a piece here around uh representative content how how the bbc can bridge the gap between what digital does so well which is the user generated content and the editorial approach to that type of work you can't just put telly onto youtube and help it works no you really can't and paul i mean much of this obviously must have been in train before matt britain arrived but i guess he had to sort of stamp it and go yep sure do that and do that and move on yeah well the the government triggered the uh process earlier this year last year actually didn't they so tim davy would have started it so i imagine there'll be a lot of discussion about what's on the table matt has probably polished it but i mean it's not been entirely matt britain's plan i'm sure but i think the expedience is to do it now because they've got to get the charter um renewed and you know frankly normally the charter renewal process starts two and a half years out before the end of the prior charter we've only got 18 months left to go on this charter.

12:01So it's quite tight. So I think they probably had to demonstrate. And in fact, the culture secretary has been very clear, hasn't she, saying you need to put your house in order. There are a number of faux pas under Tim Davies, which, you know, I'm not sure entirely Tim Davies' fault. So I'm going to answer the question you asked in a second. But I do think that that's why they've gone big now to say to the government, look, we're really getting to grips with this. Trust us, we'll deliver it. To the question, I would actually go for a very easy answer. You gave a great answer, but my answer would be get rid of the middle management there's too many people who are not really doing anything you've got fantastic creatives in the bbc you know we used to say when i was there you know the bbc made good programs despite the management and there's something true about that actually you know great people should get freedom to make great stuff but then there's this layer of people you know i mean about six layers from a producer up to the director general far far too many you know i would cut that management out i'd make it a much leaner flatter organization and improve efficiency but i would invest in production teams and really good senior teams so in other words fewer better people we'll see if he does that uh later uh this year okay next up and spotify has redefined what counts as a play it now says that when that little number ticks up it means 30 seconds of content has been consumed once per user per session uh pod news had a proper dig into it this week for the record this places spotify's measurement closer to youtube's definition which itself is pretty opaque and then there's apples which counts every tap of the play button paul a play a download a listen does it matter what we count i think it matters to advertisers doesn't it it matters there's a common currency you know i draw a parallel with you know radio the one we know well you know until we had uh rajajicra you know we couldn't really measure things you couldn't compare things you certainly couldn't attract advertisers so i think a common currency is right clearly you know a measure which is oh you've listened for more than zero is not very satisfactory you know whether 30 seconds is the right measure i don't know i mean clearly the measure you choose will have an impact on the audience you actually achieve and the revenue you achieve but it seems like a step in the right direction to me i mean print's digital measurements always been a bit opaque they've sort of watched the facebook view before and people were trying to build their businesses on it and then suddenly it was like actually no one's really watching this and they'd sort of added it up all wrong uh is it good that the maybe the big boys are getting together a bit to try and harmonize some of these numbers yeah i think so i think one of the one of the challenges that digital has had is it's lack of regulation you know and so sometimes in terms of the content that's created some people get away with like crazy things and they're able to monetize those unethical things so i think this is a good step in the direction of ensuring that digital spaces remain safe uh there's still a space for innovation and like measured risk but ultimately it moves in that direction which i think will be better for everybody in the long run uh pod news's own show talking about this log they say they log 2 000 downloads but over 3 000 plays um paul do you think media companies sometimes get away with softer definitions of these numbers yeah of course uh of course they do i think that um you know ultimately uh there needs to be a standard and uh you know i mean you're always gonna with any piece of data you know you're always going to choose the thing that's going to show you in the best light aren't you um and that's that's human nature but when it comes to accountability and look i mean advertising now is so accountable you know everyone knows exactly what's going on you need a better measure so i think this is good i think it also shows the podcast industry growing up yeah you know and it's become you know a fantastic industry and a very significant industry now in terms of um share of ear um probably not their own share of revenue yet but it will get there this will help i think do you think it should be less about plays and i guess more about sort of time spent with some of these these media is that a better way to kind of define how good some content is or how engaged some content is?

16:12I would say the 30 second sort of threshold that we're playing with now is fair enough at this point. I think we might move towards becoming too prescriptive. If we're like, oh, did you watch 40 minutes of that 45 minute thing? I think it opens up a can of worms and make things a little bit restrictive. So right now, reading that and looking at that, I'm like, yeah, have at it. Go on. It'll do. It'll do. Okay, just before the break, the government this week has announced a social media ban for under-16s coming into force, they hope, in spring 2027. Paul, The Guardian reckons it could knock something like 1.3 billion out of UK digital ad spend.

17:01That's if the teenagers vanish from their feeds. I think that's a decent chunk of money. that's suddenly going, yeah, I don't know. It is, it is. You know, YouTube is obviously the most vulnerable because it has the largest share of that, about 40, 45%. And then TikTok would be next. I mean, I'm very sceptical at this. This seems to me like an announcement made in a hurry. And we know why that's been done, given what's going on politically this week. Even Ofcom admit they don't know how to make this work. There's been a massive rise in people actually booking VPNs. to get round it so i'm not sure it's even going to happen we'll have a change of government change of prime minister in the next few weeks so it may not be a priority so first of all i say i'm not sure it's going to happen um if it does happen i think what will happen is advertisers will just adjust i don't see the money disappearing i see the money being spelled elsewhere i think it's a bit fanciful as the guardian suggested that you know disney plus and netflix are going to suddenly benefit from that ultimately you know they're going to advertisers are going to go where the audience is and they they're going to not going to pay a premium um but on social platforms it's interesting you know if fewer numbers of this target audience on those platforms might actually drive rates up yes i suppose so um prince like 90 of the country seems to be in favor of a ban on social media for under 16s do you think the public and the government are right a little anecdote I was having a conversation with a friend of mine recently, and he was in his local park playing with a remote control car, like one of these fat ones.

18:40Lucky one. I'll have one of those, please. And he was astounded at how little conversation the kids who were interested in it were able to generate. And he was kind of expecting them to say, can I have a go? But everyone was really shy. so there's that social element to it which I think maybe kids will be able to look up and look around a little bit more, absolutely then there's online safety which I think is paramount digital space can have such an impact on adults mental health so what it could do for developing brain and how they perceive the world moving forward frightens me at times when I think when I spiral into that negative space of thought So I think it's a good thing.

19:28Paul, do you think the social platforms have bought this on themselves? Well, I think the problem is, and I sort of agree with what you've just said, I think part of the problem is not the platform themselves, the content on the platform. You know, we know that a lot of this content is designed to get dopamine hits. You know, there are neuroscientists working for these platforms who know how to trigger the various chemicals in your body to make these things addictive. and the same is true also you know we're both involved in kids media there are kids tv shows where you and i both know they've been designed to be addictive you know um so i think that is a problem i do think that uh you don't want children on um any platform any screen for too many hours you can't deny it and i wouldn't deny it but it's excessive use and i do think you're right that often you find kids can't converse or choose not to converse but i don't i don't like the idea of banning something i think it should be a parental decision i think it needs more conversation you know i just don't think that it's the government's job to tell us what we can and cannot have i thought it was interesting my eight-year-old nephew uh hopped in the car after school the other day and went granny no more youtube i felt like a doof doof doof yes um but it should like cut through discussion at school even in that age about it they are on youtube a lot um when i think about some of this i think about governments of all flavors over the past few years have been pretty destructive to children to young people's media consumption so under 16 so uh banning of of high fat so on sugar has basically killed off all content on kids television and a lot of kids tv doesn't exist anymore because of that so you're sort of left with the bbc um we're now looking to turn off the social media and turn off youtube um what is there for young people to consume where are they going to go one should we as a country be making stuff for them somewhere and two paul where are they gonna where are they gonna consume it well you make a very good point i mean the whole high salt fat sugar stuff um the ban on that has produced no discernible positive output um the rise in obesity in the country has continued at the same right despite the change in the advertising restrictions but took a massive amount of money out of the business as you say effectively closed down a whole bunch of choice for for kids um i think that the danger here is that kids go to a legal platform that's a real worry i mean children are you know i say children i'm i doesn't sound condescending but young people i mean even five-year-olds are really technically illiterate they will find stuff they'll find ways you know and that's what worries me they'll go to places which are maybe even darker than than youtube uh so i'm i am a little concerned about that but i do think as a nation we should be making content for our young audiences i think that's really important and i do think it's a shame that uh you know the hollywood studios disney netflix Warner Brothers and you know Netflix Amazon aren't really commissioning original kids content anymore but that's what kids are going to end up watching because that's all that's going to be left is basically streamers are they going to watch that I don't know I mean they'll watch it if they like it I mean you know as you know kids won't watch something unless they want to watch it they don't think it's good or cool they won't watch it but not British led not British society you know American led material which is good quality and enjoyable I don't mind it being American oriented if it's good quality and it's got good values and it's actually you know it's appropriately reflecting a diverse society is encouraging good behavior is showing good principles you know without being cheesy you've got still got to have you know some jeopardy and adventure but it's got to have a good heart to it i have no problem that's american i would also like in that mix though there to be british content do you think we can use this change to try and restart the the kids content funds and audio content fund well i hope so i mean hopefully this will trigger a debate about what we want for our kids.

23:34And that's what we really need to have. You know, how are we going to deliver this? How are we going to fund it? And what should it be? So, yeah, you've got to have glasses half full. I hope so. Okay, when we return, we're going to be talking about building careers in high-end TV. I'll see you in a sec.

23:55Hello, Media Club listeners. Patrick here from Podcast Discovery, the podcast marketing company, where this week we've been thinking about awards. Several of the team here are in the thick of judging for the British Podcast Awards, the industry's most prestigious honour. So how do you win one? Well, we know better than most. Get in touch at podcastdiscovery.com. That's podcastdiscovery.com. Well, if you don't know your play from your download or how to get really beautiful shots from the right lighting or a camera set up, we heartily recommend Podshop Studios, where we record the Media Club every week.

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25:23Welcome back. Here's some of the stories we've been talking about in the club this week. After The Guardian uncovered controversial tweets from presenter Ashley Cain, the BBC has refused to commit to airing the second series of his show, Into the Danger Zone. The series is already in the can and has asked Sky End producer to review its social media checks. Tech platforms have, for the first time, overtaken news outlets as the world's main source of news. That's from the Reuters Institute Digital News Report. 54 % of people globally now use social and video platforms for their news fix. and over on radio to Sarah Cox as a start date for The Breakfast Show Monday the 6th of July four months after Scott Mills left the slot her first guest will be Tom Hanks and we're marking the passing of Roger Cook the trailblazing investigative reporter who has died aged 83 the Cook Report drew audiences of up to 12 million people at peak a fearless doorstepping style that won him a special BAFTA and even got him a spitting image puppet links to all of our stories are available on our sub stack it's free to sign up just go to themediaclub.com that's themediaclub.com prince and paul are still with me i hope both prince talk to me about latent pictures and some of the special things that you guys do but first what's latent latent pictures is a production company based in bristol we specialize in social impact and social value comms for corporates and we also specialize in behind the scenes for high-end TV and film.

26:54So what does that look like? Is that press kits or...? Yeah, press kits and things that kind of straddle digital as well as efforts for distribution as well. And we use that business model as a vehicle for talent development. So we take people onto our corporate sets and give them a bit of an insight into what a small-scale set can look like, elements of professionalism, and most importantly, authenticity as well. how to see an opportunity to see how difference converges on a film set and start to identify where they believe their strengths might be. And then we broke our training opportunities and training roles with production companies.

27:34And if people don't get taken onto those training roles, we try to use a percentage of our profits to bring them on to our EPK work. So they get a behind the scenes literally for themselves of how high-end TV and film sets operate and kind of what the troubleshooting is like in their aspired department, how people interrelate, turning up on time, putting phones on silent, troubleshooting as well, you know, and comms across radios, all of those like finicky things that you wouldn't necessarily know if you were doing a student film we like to create opportunity for people to have that moment of the penny dropping of i can see myself in here now and to feel to feel that thing of money dropping their account for having been on a film set as well there's a bit of job it's a proper job yeah yeah where did it come from where did these where did the training elements become an important part of of the business um so like the company founder ryan francis he grew up in bristol he'd been living yeah he lived there all his life and he'd been trying really hard to get into the industry uh and struggled to see anybody like him to take him under their wing um and i moved to bristol in 2010 so i've been there for 16 years now and i had a fairly similar experience myself one fateful day in 2022 i commissioned ryan to shoot something for me and i absolutely loved how he operated we were shooting in a school and he has this phenomenal way of building rapport with people so much so that he can stick a fat camera in their face and they can act naturally right so we started talking he told me about the seedlings of this business model and in my career before working in film and tv i had used a similar model to develop talent in facilitation and project management so we just thought why don't we bring it together the faithful chat in a secondary school car park and then i gave him a task a list of tasks to complete thinking that he would have to go away and do some research or take him some time he calls me the next morning saying i've done everything uh fancy coming along for the ride and that was it my life has never been the same since where do you find the people so obviously a lot of people want to get into tv and film what's that connective tissue that suddenly is like sure come along to the thing we're doing uh the relationships we've built you know there's a real there's a real desire for generating opportunity and one of the things that's beautiful about bristol in the southwest region is they're really proud of doing it themselves um and like through whatever means they might achieve that by so it's it we find that easy to harness uh so we work with the bottle yard studios and their project all set west we've got good relationships with some of the universities there we try and do some outreach at uh like local events and also speak to schools we've got a great partnership with a secondary school that helps us get people like speak to people early and then we kind of onboard them onto our database and put call-outs out about events and opportunities and anything that we think that's upcoming that they might be interested in.

31:03Media is entirely a base-zero relationships business and particularly getting work comes from those connections you make. Yeah, valuable. So we work so hard to create our own and work equally as hard to help people make theirs too. and so it's evolved from just kind of bring people onto your own productions to you sort of almost people sort of outsourcing elements of that to you guys yeah i mean that that was a real moment of flattery when some production companies get in touch and they're like we've heard that you guys are the guys to do this stuff for us that justifies the risk we're taking you know we're a limited company we're not a charity and it's so easy for people to perceive a company like ours as a charity but ultimately what we're trying to do is make uh training and development inclusion and accessibility a viable business proposition you know as i was referring to earlier like my partner says this to me all the time she's just like you're you're right british you are she's portuguese right and she's always just like you're as british as they come and i love the fact that she says that because you wouldn't think it of me necessarily if we were stood on the central line next to each other but my favorite thing about britain is how different cultures come together i don't think there's any other country in the world that does it this way and then how like the way those cultures blend and then you get sort of these uh these like products of that that kind of meshes of two completely different cultures that found a way to be together and it makes sense you hear it you see it you smell it you taste it you know that fusion is bang on um and that's what we want that's what i want to see more of in the film and tv industry and also a lot of the production companies they might have got funding from like regional development opportunities where some of these things they have to do that perhaps they maybe haven't staffed up before so do you sort of fit that gap a little bit yeah absolutely we support in that too you know it depends on what decisions and agreements have been made because that influences how the money moves around and whether or not we fit into the metrics that they're being judged by you know and and it's i really love coming across people who've got a real appetite for it i know sometimes we can look back at the industry and think oh we've moved so we've moved on so much and in some areas we really have but the more and more i speak to people from previous generations in the industry the like there's just an there was an appetite for risk then that seems to have been lost somewhat now uh and i love hearing those stories and i we kind of work in a way where we can reintroduce that element of risk but also show it as innovation and show it as a bit of fun as a bit of r &d that comes as a consequence of committing to completing this projects we try to work and fit around whichever production company and whatever their needs are in that space it's an interesting model isn't it paul i mean training something that we kind of come back to all the time and people lose their focus a little bit when the budget starts to to be cut but there's ways to kind of reinvent everything yeah no i think it's fascinating what you're doing and i do agree with what you're doing in terms of the approach i think it's fantastic i mean and to make it into a business as you say you're a limited company not a charity to actually be able to do all the work you're doing and still, you know, keep the lights on and return, you know, money to shareholders, whoever is backing you is great.

34:35I was going to ask you, do you have any success stories? I mean, people who've come in really raw, you know, didn't know about some of the basics and have gone on to do amazing, interesting things. Yeah, there's a few of them, actually. Shout outs to Jojo. Shout outs to Jojo and Amelia. What have they done? They've gone on to be camera trainees on long-running series that have been shot in the region as well. So it's been great to watch their careers develop and see their confidence develop and hear them talking about the next step now. It's like, okay, cool. We actually got Jojo in to be a camera operator for a short film we made last year.

35:15And that was such a beautiful thing to see. Jojo building confidence. So we actually know I'm going to capture this. and I'm going to be trying to distill and provide what the DOP and the director actually really, really want. And yeah, it's magic. When you see that stuff happen, that's why we're in this game. It's an interesting thing about people who are passionate about sector, radio, tele, film, whatever, they can demonstrate that in a variety of ways. They can make their own short films, they can vlog or whatever. And it's trying to take that and give them the opportunities in the real world that's always the challenge it is and i think there's probably a lot of people who've got fantastic talent and lots of ideas who don't get the chance because they don't know quite how to do it or they haven't got the confidence or think no one's going to be interested in my idea and this obviously would be a complete opposite to that i think it's fantastic and bringing in new people is so important what i wonder is i mean it's quite a narrow editorial but focus you're going for which is a good thing i think you can really own that space do you think that model could be uh adopted in other genres of of production content media yeah absolutely absolutely that's that's such a good question and again it's something that i try to look out for if i see somebody doing that in whatever space they're in i always got like go out of my way to give them the kudos in doing that i think i think there's nothing more rewarding than seeing a high equality legacy as you walk out the door you know that feeling i don't know why i just had the image of like in hollywood walking away from an explosion you know how they were so chuffed a big positive explosion a positive explosion like yeah rainbows and confetti okay i would go for rainbows yeah but um you guys must have experienced that right you know see someone green come in and then all of a sudden they're this this monster there's always a moment that activates somebody i was listening to the audio academies podcast uh and they had um an old friend of mine chris north was on and he was talking about some of the student radio people that they do i think all demo factor where they play demos in front of a whole room and it's sort of x factor pastiche a little bit um and he was just naming the people that had been kind of plucked from that where they just pick a demo literally put it in a metaphorical tape player and and talk about it and gives that person some confidence and yeah you're really good coming to my radio station you just need those different ways that unlock that ability chris is good at managing talent though yes i had a beer with him actually at latvia at radio guys nice guy good good i have listened on the audio academy podcast right just enough time for the audio network media quiz three media stories connected by one theme and shoehorned into the format of an existing media property this week it's called another tech drama.

38:05So this week we're in a high-tech thriller. I'm going to give you a moody dramatic plot synopsis and you just tell me the media story that's hiding behind it. And today Alex Audio Network has taken that shadowy brief from producer Matt and pulled together a playlist of dark mysterious underscores to score today's game. It's a best of three so buzz in with your names if you know the answer. So Paul you will say veteran. Prince you will say latent. Right. Thank you, play by my rules. Let's play Deep Fake. They told us the camera never lies. But what if the camera was never there at all? Somewhere in a server, 11 skeletons move across a pitch that only exists as data.

38:46Every stride, every turn, rebuilt from numbers. You can stand behind the goalkeeper. You can run with a striker. None of it's real. Yes, Paul. This is the BBC with their 3D World Cup application, which is on the website and also on the BBC app. so you can basically watch a World Cup game from any angle, any corner of the stadium. And it's good. I mean, I've played with it on the website. I think there's one problem with it. Go on. And that is it's not on a BBC platform. Yes, it's in a kind of test zone, isn't it? So my question is this. How BBC do you get the credit for it? Because people may not remember it's BBC licence payer funded.

39:27Yeah, it's kind of in demo mode. This is, we talked about it earlier, but it's using technology from XRFirm at immersive.io. That's who's powering it. Right, okay, dispatch number two. Thrust into a simulated world of endless permutations, one playwright has collapsed all that chaos down to exactly five outcomes. Same room, same opening every single night, but five ways it can end. Latent. Yes. I forgot my name. um this is the traitors yes yeah traitors adaptation yes a new traitors stage show called acts of betrayal acts of betrayal a cycle of five different plays by john finnamore opening in 2027 where the plot ends five different ways and on a saturday audience pick the traitor i mean it's it's fun to play with something like theater and mix it with the tv show they sort of had to do something a bit strange for the traitors didn't they i i mean as far as like innovation and blends go i think they've nailed it you know uh to to witness that live i know they've got the traitors experience as well which is immersive too so to witness that live i think that'll be really fascinating and and also to like push people towards theater again i think theater is so under underappreciated so something like that i'm i'm very much looking forward to and one of the benefits of having such a massive brand like the traitors is you can actually be a bit creative can't you do some fun things with it you can and i'm really glad i mean i'm not quite sure how it's going to work i mean stephen lambert saying every night will be different i mean i can't really be that different can it but i'm going to go and see how they work that works because i mean people have been trying this haven't they alternative endings to things for years and no one's really nailed it but in a theatrical experience as you say maybe they can so yeah good on them innovation so big tick well i had a look at the tickets the other day and they're selling out fast so if you how much uh well standard uh west end prices so okay soon okay not inexpensive but um but yeah it's something out fast if you want to go and get some uh right uh number three a 1980s world so heightened it can't possibly be real but this is no theme park despite being run by an oversized it's the mouse.

41:42And that mouse has just ordered 12 more episodes. Retro. Yes. I mean, if I didn't get this as someone who worked for Walt Disney for nearly 10 years, I would be, this is Rivals. Yes. This is season three of Rivals for Disney+. I was interested to see, they said that they've given it a third season because the season two ratings, whilst down on season one, were respectable. I thought that was rather soft. But this is obviously David Tennant and Danny Dyer and all these guys. Something made in sort of your neck of the woods-ish Rivals. Some of it's come out of the Bristol studios. Yes, yeah, yeah.

42:21They've been, yeah, cooped in and in the bottle yard for an extensive amount of time now. Have you been watching Rivals? No. It's good. It's good. It's about the wacky world of ITV licensing. Oh, I bet you've watched it. It's right up our street. I might learn something, though. It's right up our street. Okay, I think that just about makes Paul the winner. congratulations um one and a half each as a special prize uh you go and have to convert the media club into something that teens can watch after the media ban going for biscuits frankly man arriving one day uh but thanks to paul and prince uh and thanks again to alex audio network for supplying today's music remember audio network can do that for you as well uh just go to audionetwork.com or click the link in our show notes uh so before we go how can people keep up with your good work?

43:09You can follow us at Leighton Pictures Leighton Pictures UK on Instagram and Leighton Pictures on LinkedIn. Lovely. And Paul, how can people keep up with what you're doing? Well, I'm still doing the DJ work on Boom Radio and LinkedIn apart from that. LinkedIn. Always the place to go. Thank you, Paul. I'm Matt Deegan. The producer is Matt Hill. This was a Rethink Audio production with video support from Podcast Discovery. I'll see you next week.

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