Goalhanger Breaks New Records, Superindies Plan Merger

0:01Hello, welcome to the Media Club. I'm Matt Deegan. In the club today, Goalhanger hits a quarter of a million paying listeners. We speak exclusively to their chief commercial officer about their strategy and what it means for TV radio streamers all across the sector. Also on the show, Banner J and all three media in talks to merge. But what do you call a super indie when it doubles in size? All that plus Cathy Newman leaves Channel 4 and Amal Rajan leaves the Today programme. And in the Audio Network Media Quiz, we look at the media properties with grand designs. That's all happening in this edition of the Media Club.

0:34Come on in.

0:38And joining me is Alex Zane, a broadcaster and host of the second series of A Great New Podcast. The Savoy Originals. Thank you very much, Matt. Lovely to be here again. Alex, who are you thinking of for the plus one, your own plus one this week? I would like to add the actor Jack O 'Connell. I was just saying to you before we began, 28 years later, The Bone Temple just came out. Jack O 'Connell's an actor I've loved for a long time. obviously started in Skins and made his film debut in the brilliant start-up. And then I went on to sort of touch Hollywood slightly with the Angelina Jolie-directed Unbroken.

1:13But the last 12 months have been great for him. Last year, the vampire movie Sinners plays a villain in that, absolutely fantastic. And this week, 28 years later, The Bone Table's come out. I'd argue, it's got Ralph Fiennes in. For me, Jack O 'Connell is the best thing in it. It's such a wonderful performance and I think off the back of these last 12 months he's going to be in a lot more Hollywood movies I mean already he's been cast in the new Kong versus Godzilla and you know who knows whether being in Hollywood movies is a barometer for success but I think a lot of people do and the fact that he is now sort of crossed that threshold with some fantastic work and it's not just me saying it I mean the Telegraph called his performance tremendous Empire Magazine called it deeply unsettling he plays this bewigged tracksuit wearing villain sadist satanist it's it's the best thing in the movie it's a great movie but he is fantastic in it well he's definitely welcome in the club

2:13so what do you get if you cross the traitors with last one laughing well we might soon find out as two of the biggest TV companies in Europe are talking about merging. We've already got super indies, but what do we call them now? OK, a necessity. How about that? How about that? Yeah, I mean, this is Banerjee and all three media. I mean, look, this is happening on a micro and macro scale, whether you're a tiny indie or a super indie like this, because it's a necessity. I mean, what it's giving, you just mentioned a couple of the shows there, what it's basically giving them that they need right now is bargaining power.

2:53When you have a roster of shows like that, you finally can possibly get a better deal with the landscape as it is with streamers, with Amazon, with Netflix. So fundamentally, this is an essential development and it's just going to continue. And, you know, we've got, as I said, on a macro scale, you've got Netflix by Warner Brothers. There is something terrifyingly dystopian about this. It really does fit. I mean, how many sci-fi novels have you read where the world is ruled by one to five mega corporations and they control everything? Yeah, normally an evil media overlord's in there as well. Absolutely.

3:29I think it's in for all three media because they were maybe in talks to buy ITV Studios division and now they're kind of teaming up with Banerjee. And them talking about merging with ITV Studios meant Banerjee went, well, hang on a sec, what about us? And now ITV Studios is sort of left out in the cold. It's sort of mad to think our kind of main commercial broadcaster is sort of maybe the bridesmaid and not the bride. It's so strange. And I know we're going to be talking about another deal that ITV has done a little later in the show. So, yeah, it's a strange time for ITV, I would say. Yeah. And we often think about people maybe who are watching and listening.

4:05If you're pitching shows, you're often doing it with an indie. It's rare that you do something on your own. I suppose more bargaining power is potentially good for you as being a cog in that wheel. But it does seem a little worrying. Yeah, I mean, well, again, to go back to the streamers and the way it works with them, as we know, you basically get a fee. You know, it's not you don't get sales money back. It's a flat fee you get for your work. So if you have the might behind you and a track record of making hugely successful shows, then as a creator, you are going to want to have that company in your corner fighting your fight.

4:43Over to Google now. One of their many execs who was speaking to MPs this week, claiming that they shouldn't have to pay for AI training on what they call freely available content. Yeah. So if you put it out into the world for free, so it's on a website, a radio show or some telly, then that's fine. That's fine to train the algorithm. I mean, fundamentally, I do think it's okay. Okay, tell me why. Well, in the sense that if it's on the internet already, you have companies that exist that obviously aren't Google size, but people are using your material, your content for their own needs. There are two prongs to this conversation.

5:26One is the idea of Google using people's content to train its AI, which I don't have a problem with. I think the nuance comes in with the AI overview. And obviously now Google search was the go-to thing to find out anything on the internet. That is no longer the case. I know so many people who go straight to chat GPT. So it makes absolute sense for Google's AI, Gemini, to have the AI overview at the top of their search page. The problem there is, and I know it's been said by Google, we are not copying content. We are using your content to create original content, which is, as an aside, that's scary because that sounds like you are personifying AI again.

6:09It sounds like it's writing. It's working really hard writing an article for you. It doesn't sound like when you're in school and someone goes, have you copied this essay from your friend? because you're not allowed to do that. But it's more the fact that is the content, the original content creator, not even going to be clicked on anymore because the AI now, the AI overview on Google is so explicit that you don't need anymore, that it gives you everything you need. So in that instance, well, yeah, the website, the original website is going to lose out. I mean, just be worried that that AI overview will just be more and more of the page and no one will ever get to those links.

6:45Which is interesting because apparently these content creators, these publishers, have the ability to opt out or at least limit how much they can have on their page. But then the fear is, although Google are like, it won't affect where you appear in a search history. It won't appear. You'll still be, if you're near the top, you'll stay near the top. It's like, will you though? Yeah. Will you? In other news, Golden Globes this week, more big wins for adolescents. An announcement by Disney Plus that they've got a first look deal with Stephen Graham, who's Indie co-produced the show and also some recent Disney hit, A Thousand Blows as well.

7:23Bit of a coup for Disney to get hold of Mr. Graham. I'll do my personal side first. Out of a lot of people that I've interviewed in the industry over the years, Stephen Graham has continued to be one of the nicest, most down-to-earth and gracious people. So I'm very happy for him on a personal level. It's great for Disney though. I mean, of all the British programme makers to have this first look deal with Matriarch Productions, his production company. He's making the most authentic British TV. And look, I know national pride is, it's a sentence that if you say it out loud, you consistently feel you have to explain yourself immediately.

7:58But when it comes to TV, to see adolescents scoop up, I think it was eight Emmys, four Golden Globes, it gives me a buzz. It really gives me a buzz that a British production is being recognised on that level. and it's a reminder of just how many skilled people we have working in TV and film behind the camera. We have the best crews in the world. We have great talent in front of the camera, but just such great creatives behind the camera, which is why so much is being shot here. And I think, you know, just to get on my soapbox for a minute, it's why I think the government needs to support, not just support, but celebrate the creative industries and recognise what an important part of the economy our creative industry actually is.

8:47Yeah, no, I mean, it's a huge part of the economic growth story, successful media here. I look at this deal and think if you're Channel 4 or the BBC or even Netflix, are you thinking, oh, it's another one's gone? I bet you are. I bet you are. I mean, look, you know, for Stephen to have the might of Disney behind him, it is great. and we've talked about the macro level. The micro level, he's just a very, very talented filmmaker, programme maker. He's a brilliant actor. All his stories come from a place of character and to watch him, it's a trope, but he disappears into the character and also he's got a great eye for talent.

9:26Look at Owen Cooper, who he cast, or he was part of the casting process for in adolescence. It was great seeing some of the VTs from the Golden Globes with him chatting to all the Hollywood stars. what an amazing journey for him what an amazing journey and what a talent and by all accounts everyone you speak to in front and behind the camera who works with Stephen Graham talks about and it's the word that you know should define programme making he's so collaborative he is literally trying to get the best out of everyone and can spot talent as well the director of Adolescence obviously he worked with on the other real time show he did a film he did Boiling Point which was also great so yeah it's brilliant for Stephen and it's brilliant for the country.

10:05Okay, finally, just before the break, Channel 4's anchor and journalist of the year, Kathleen Newman, is to jump ship to Sky News and also Amal Rajan is to leave the Today programme. It's a good grab for Sky. Yeah, I mean, look, many, many years ago, I left Channel 4 for Sky and never looked back. She's just waited. She's waited to follow your footsteps. Yeah, it sounds to me like they're offering and Sky is offering her to pursue more long-form investigations, which she clearly wants to do. It's talk of a podcast as well. Of course there's a podcast. Of course there's a podcast. Who doesn't have a podcast these days?

10:44But it makes sense to me. I mean, look, I don't know, but I think right now the way people are getting their news and seeking out their news, something like a podcast and doing long-form investigations that people will actively seek out feels like a definite growth for someone like Cathy Newman as opposed to just reading the news when people are very specific, let's say, about where they get their news. Yeah, Sky News has talked a lot about wanting to evolve their model to be a bit more subscription-driven and have deeper connections with audiences. So having bigger talent and people that you want to subscribe to and want to connect with is probably sensible for them.

11:24I mean, look, it's fantastic for Sky. Cathy Newman is brilliant. And also, you know, from her perspective, as she just won a Journalist of the Year, an investigative Journalist of the Year, just in December last year, which is a great time to work on a new contract. That seems to go quite well. Let's add another zero to that. And then also, so Amal leaving the Today programme, he's going to start up his own kind of thing. He sort of talks about becoming a creator. That's quite a big shift to give up the premier news programme. I mean, everybody in the political world is listening to the Today programme.

11:56he's got his podcast obviously he does University Challenge as well but what will be Owl Co? Who knows but wasn't I just saying to you before there is this thing I think you reach a point in your career where you just you kind of want to have it from the ground up like not a pride or an ego thing but just purely you've worked in an industry for long enough that you kind of want it to be your baby in its entirety which I think you know it's quite a basic argument but I think it offers more appeal than people realise. He's on print editor of newspapers obviously success in radio tv as well i mean he's got he's done a lot of different things so i guess that the new co could could do any of that anything i mean it's a blank canvas let's see let's see whether he paints his sistine chapter yes well amal uh if you are listening come along and tell us your plans uh right uh after the break uh we're gonna be catching up with gold hangers chief revenue officer on their plans for 2026 i'll see you in a sec.

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14:22Alex is still with me and we're joined by Conrad Withey, Chief Commercial Officer at Goal Hanger. UK's leading podcast company, I think we probably used there. I think we could say that, yes. And some announcements today. What have you got to tell us? Yeah, we've hit a pretty key milestone. We've now got 250 ,000 paying members across our clubs, which was something about a year ago we probably didn't think was going to happen around now, but we set a stretch goal in the summer of could we get there was this your aim this was our aim okay yeah yeah i joined in june last year and at that point i think we were on track to hit 250 around the middle of april and we're like right what can we do to kind of pull that forward and we set this goal of right january the 1st would be amazing but probably unrealistic and maybe it's valentine's day and we have this line on the wall and everyone's kind of working and doing what they could to contribute to that line going upwards and then actually we got there on the 12th of January so we would judge that as a result.

15:17I didn't say a good result so what is a paying member? So our clubs offer memberships which include ad free, bonus content, access to live events and typically paying around£6,£7 a month for that to be part of that. Some paying annually, some paying monthly. So all those quarter of a million are about that amount? Yes. so that okay if i do some quick maths yes and i think about some vats and platform fees and like all those things about a million quid a month yeah probably a little bit more than that okay so that's good business that's not that's not bad yeah and i guess other side of the business sort of more traditional advertising i guess events yeah so subs money and ads money how does that i mean last year certainly advertising sponsorship would still be the the lion's share from a revenue perspective and i think when i came in the conversation i was having with jack and tony our co-founders was you we know recurring revenue is one of the most attractive uh business models obviously it helps it helps with business valuation but it also helps build resilience and obviously you know our clients are our talent we want them to be working with us for the long run and we want to build something that's that's uh you know reliable for them too so thinking about everything with a membership lens on it was quite important and and and how we could you know at the end of the day we're creating fandoms with around the shows and uh and nearly always those fans want more and if we can give it to them and turn that into a a business model that complements of course the lovely thing about memberships is you get to know your listener your watcher but also their customers like it's a different it is a different relationship it's a very different relationship it's quite intimate i think most people know you know podcasts offer that kind of experience and they'd lean in and they want more uh but through that you get lots of data and that helps your advertising side.

17:08So actually all boats rise, I suppose, is the way we think about memberships. Strive for them and then all sides of the business. I guess a lot of media companies historically have been just the ads end or subscription coming through a platform, a Sky or something like that. Kind of going direct to consumer is, it's hard work and we've seen CNN announce they want to go down that route. Sky News have talked about wanting to do that too. A quarter of a million subs probably puts you up there with kind of content subscription providers. Yeah, it does. What do you need to do to get people to pay? Is it that close relationship?

17:44Are they subscribing because of the rest is history host? Do they want to support them? Why are they there? I think it's quite different to the examples you just gave there where in a sense you're buying into a media company and the kind of content that they stand for and the perspectives that they give. It's funny, I came out of music and Goalhanger feels quite similar to how it felt to be in a major label where the talent are critical the talent will drive initially that engagement and build that fandom and nearly always the audience who want more want similar things too they want more content but they also want to go to live events and they also want to wear merch and you know just like in music so in that sense i think we feel more like a talent network than necessarily a media brand where it doesn't matter what we do you'll you'll sign up and you'll kind of you'll explore but so it is it's definitely a sense of they want more of what that particular show gives which doesn't necessarily rule out in the future maybe they'll want many of our shows at the same time and maybe there's a goal hanger relationship with uh the audience as well uh to multiple shows what's the data some do certainly it's a it's a small percentage who listen to i'm sure some people like they listen to all of them i don't know how because it's an awful lot of content every week.

19:00But actually on the whole, the clubs are designed around individual shows right now and people are leaning into the extra content they get from that and the other experiences. I mean, there's been a lot of chat from your co-founders that the shows are sort of joint ventures with the talent. They're getting a decent chunk of the money. Are they getting the subs money as well as the ads money? Yeah, yeah. The structure of talent deals at Goldhanger is pretty consistent in that everything that we do contributes to that partnership and is treated in the same way. So I think once it, because obviously what you do at the beginning of launching a club is you're asking people to do more and they're already doing quite a lot.

19:34So you've got to kind of convince people that this could lead to something that could be even more attractive than obviously the ad partnerships or complimentary. And I think what we've done with these clubs now is some of them got to real scale is you can see the value of that every single month. And, you know, you start the year with a, on history now, you know, more than six figures just in that club. they're all there again and it allows you just to do so much more you can learn an awful lot about what else they want and i think for probably the first few years of gold hangers existence on the podcasting side a lot of the live events were kind of reactive people would come with offers but once you're leaning into a club that group will tell you what they want and you can design far more um i suppose bespoke experiences and delight and you know it keeps people with you longer so it's a fascinating um sort of flywheel i suppose yeah alex you've hosted lots of tv and radio shows where normally you're paid they don't disappear before the check the check drops would you have joint ventured any of your previous jobs with your broadcasters i mean what's what's interesting about what comrade's saying is the idea of a relationship between these subscribers and goal hanger which i think probably already exists even if you're not utilizing it yet because when I was doing a podcast under a podcast company that had numerous shows on their roster, when a line-up changed on one of the other shows and the fans were decimated by furious livid, it wasn't just that show that got targeted.

21:00We got abused as well just because we were under that banner. So they are very vocal. I mean, there's a loyalty there and the fact it affected them so much they had to take it out on everyone. It's a testament to how involved they were. Sure, and there's also that level of trust and it helps us on the other side where we're launching a show because it means that you can come out with something like the rest of science which we did in november put that to the entire network and not you know people don't jar they go what on earth are you serving this to me they kind of trust oh this is something i want to give a go and i think that you know that comes back to then how do we attract the best talent to come and work at goal hanger work with us and that's part of the mix it's like well one we can bring you over into this world where you can build a business that is very different in its nature, but also we can help you get there more quickly because we're able to unlock that relationship.

21:49And there's that trust there that obviously our content and production teams, they know the right kind of thing the audience is going to like. So it's sort of, it works. Because of your success, I'm sure you're inundated with pitches from talent to come and join your ranks. Obviously we can look at who's a good performer, who'd be an interesting show to listen to. But if you look at these subs numbers, are you also looking for people who will be able to strike up that paying relationship with consumers yes do you need some exclusivity around the individuals i think sometimes in podcasts there's some people do a lot of shows uh and they're not particularly exclusive it's very easy to get a bit of them you know do you want to lock people down and all of their output kind of comes through you that's not been the nature of the partnerships we've done so far i think the you know most people are coming with a track record they're coming with expertise and and you know our strapline is goal hangers for the curious and we want to bring people in who can explain topics and subject matter in in really entertaining ways that means they've normally got other things going on so the idea you're going to suddenly say right you're exclusive to us that's one it's probably prohibitively expensive and two it's sort of not been in the spirit of how things have gone but i think the there is certainly a membership's lens now on everything we do and and that doesn't preclude us doing a show where actually a club may never happen here but I think more often than not we're thinking where could this head and what might that look like and conversations start right from the outset with talent on clubs have been successful for other shows we might want to think about what other things will do but I think a lot of it is always listening to the audience you want to understand what it is they'll ask for or why they'd sign up to something and that isn't the same for every show, football will be completely different from history which will be completely different from science.

23:34Do you know the bit was like football and they go, do I want to give Gary Lineker any money? Hasn't he got enough cash himself? Well, there isn't a club for football, interestingly. But yeah, I suppose everything's about understanding the value proposition of what it is that that audience wants. And interestingly, we do have a club of football, but it's free and it's all about fantasy Premier League. Who knows? There might well be a paid membership at some point, but at the moment there isn't. It's not sort of a fixed playbook. You're like, well, that's what it is. And, you know, we just roll that out.

24:04The exclusivity with your talent thing, I think, is kind of key. I have a comedian friend of mine who is currently hosting three different podcasts at the same time. I mean, I would never tell him this, but it's just diluting each product. And it removes what his identity is with each. It looks like just a paid job. It looks like there's no investment there, no passion for the subject, because they're all so fundamentally different in topic. I think that's a conversation as opposed to us saying this needs to be a contractual point in a sense of it makes total sense for you to i think be all in on this thing because because just through focus and commitment and doing it again and again and getting better and better um you're more likely to have success so it's for us it's always been conversational and so far you know not many of our our talent do other podcasts anthony scaramucci has a book one which just goes through goal hanger but you know he did he did independently so i think it's definitely more we're trying to explain how this model works how it can be successful and trying to nudge you towards that in the conversation i've had i think it's definitely changed what talent want from podcasts and i think other producers have probably got to make perhaps more generous deals than they would choose to yeah i mean a lot of the sort of split the money with the talent i guess at the beginning was just that's a cheaper way to run a podcast before we get going sure yeah i think i I think there probably is a lot in that because, you know, Goldhanger started through various test and learn approach.

25:33It wasn't like, right, we're going to build this empire. It was try a few things and see what happens. And there's no doubt that's a cheaper way to go to market. And we, you know, we've tried other deals. And sometimes the management or the agents of talent want to explore different structures. But often they revert back to it because in the long run, if you're committed to it and think I'm going to be here maybe three, four or five years, at that point this is this is definitely the better model i'm not super familiar with the contracts other podcast companies use but i'm pretty confident yeah this is a generous structure but you have to be you have to believe in it and you have to go all in and play the long game rather than just sort of you know this is a three-month gig and we'll see which is probably easy when you've got people who are talking about something they're passionate about in the first place yeah totally and that's all as you know with all our shows that's that's been the model yeah we've talked a lot on the media club about the sort of this rise of the word show and that yeah you know a podcast was a kind of audio thing and now it's a cross-platform thing yeah are you a podcast company are you a entertainment company are you are you in shows business says gold hangar podcast limited but it's a constant conversation around we do talk about shows and i think we go where the audience is and as every new technology company or streamer embraces the format which is basically just independently distributed content audio or video um it evolves and it changes and i suppose for me i think about the value proposition for goal hanger is helping talent come and explore these opportunities and trying to make it as simple for them as possible and the best job we can do for them is that their content ends up wherever audiences will find it and discover it and they'll choose whether they listen or watch jack always talks about we're eyes optional so we're trying to make sure video is obviously as you know is is at the forefront every show is now on video but if you if you're used to the habit of listening while you're commuting or when you're doing something else then we don't want that to and that's not the rest is science that's relatively new show that's higher numbers on the video than the audio oh yeah absolutely it's it's almost flipped the model of some of the other shows where we're seeing sort of three times reach on video to the sort of more traditional podcast routes but you know part of that is michael stevens who is a massive youtuber so no doubt brought a big audience with him that that that we're always going to be video first but also uh the way we you know the way the show was crafted and has been um developed we knew those ideas that were being discussed would work really well in video and that's proven to be the case it's very exciting i've seen netflix have really kind of jumped into podcasting in the past few months.

28:15They've signed deals with Spotify. They've commissioned their own shows that they're calling podcasts that just seem like TV shows on Netflix. They've got their own podcast that's not on Netflix, that's on YouTube. And you've got a show that's going to be on Netflix as well. We do. Well, the rest is football will be in partnership with Netflix for the World Cup. It will actually exist in both worlds so there will be an audio one still and then there will be the video podcast will move the video version of the show will move to Netflix for 40 days So it'll come off YouTube for that point Yeah They seem quite insistent on that Yes And I suppose if they're paying the bills you can decide whether that's a good thing Do you think that'll annoy kind of customers slash viewers who are used to get on YouTube?

29:01It's interesting because the summer's always a complicated time for football If you've got a big tournament then you know there's a lot of interest still If there's no tournament at all we find the numbers obviously go down significantly it feels like we're not that worried we think it's going to one it's going to introduce a whole new group of people to the rest of football which is super exciting historically we find they come back, the season comes back in the middle of August normal habits resume we're not worried about it, I think we're excited about the potential of what this could be and in the spirit of Goalhanger it's like let's see what happens, let's do it really well and learn a lot from it and I'm sure Netflix are in a similar place you know they're sort of testing and learning their approach to the podcast scene and doing different kinds of deals our deal feels very different to the Ringer deal which has gone through Spotify so again different models as well and one of the Rest It's History co-hosts is on your new podcast or your returning podcast Savoy Originals back for season 2.

30:03Season 2 of the Savoy Originals yes yes Tom Holland is joining me next week for the final episode of season 2 so I've just actually been listening into it. The rest is history. I'm a new listener. Joan of Arc, have you been working your way through? No, no, no. I started listening to the Jack the Ripper, the recent Jack the Ripper episodes. And I do, it's cheeky. I respect you. I like your model. So I got three episodes in and the final episode is behind a paywall. You might be in terms of 50 ,000 and one. And one, yeah, exactly. You'd be very welcome. Looking forward to talking to him, obviously, reading about the success that show's had.

30:36It's incredible. It's incredible. The tours. Where are, do you know, Can you say where most of the listeners of that show are? Obviously, it's a global show. It's definitely one of our most international shows. I think we're now at the point where there's as many people listening in the US as there are in the UK, but also Australia, New Zealand. I mean, it draws an audience all over the world. It feels like a show that's at a massive tipping point. And December was insane where Bob Iger took them out to Disneyland. they did a history of disney then there was a collaboration with the beatles around the anthology and at the same time they became podcast of the year on apple first time there's ever been a show outside the u.s so you know is the is the u.s a much better place to be a podcaster than the uk income wise yeah there's no doubt the scale of spending in the u.s dwarfs the equipment certainly on advertising and sponsors dwarfs and i think that's probably why you don't see quite so much drive for memberships and subscriptions in the on the on the bigger us uh firms as you you have maybe seen here where it's just a small advertising market it's still a big business for us but compared to the us it's yeah we are dwarfed there's i think there was just a much earlier adoption of of ads and the podcast sector over there and and um yeah i mean it's it's fascinating and it would be really interesting to see as history except the rest of history accelerates over there, what that means for that show in that market because it feels like a blockbuster now.

32:10Astonishing how fast it's happened as well. It's five years, five or six years since it began. 2020 wasn't it? Less than that. Yeah, yeah. History's even less, yeah. I mean, it's a beast. And who else is on season two? So season two, yes. The Savoy Originals back talking about success with very, very successful people in various fields, creative, sports people, and what originality, how important originality is in becoming successful in your chosen field. So we start on Friday with Tom Fletcher, the brilliant musician from McFly, who has just obviously composed all the songs for the hugely popular and very well-reviewed Pannington, the musical.

32:49He is our first guest. It's a great series. I think I'd say more eclectic in terms of who we've got on from the first series. We've got Elizabeth Day is on. Elizabeth Day, fantastic podcaster, author, journalist, Dame Maggie Adderin-Pocock. The BBC's Face of Space is on. So, yeah, it's lovely. I mean, it's still the strangest experience hosting a podcast from the Royal Suites. at the Savoy. I mean, I grew up hosting podcasts in literal spit and sawdust venues, and when you're going, welcome to the £12 ,000 a night royal suite of the Savoy to do a chat about your life. How are you? You get to stay overnight after each record.

33:41I don't, unfortunately, no. I still like that it's not only at the Savoy, it's a podcast that's sponsored by a champagne company. Literally, it is the perfect Oh, really? The perfect thing to do. We've got our water and tea. You have your lovely champagne in every episode. I have started to try and design the episodes. They're recording later in the day because you get very little done after a bottle of Lauren Perrier at 11am. Okay, well, obviously we're champagne later. That's how it works here. And we've just got enough time for the Audio Network Media Quiz.

34:15So three media stories connected by one theme and then shoehorned into the format of an existing media property. This week, it's called Grand Designers. Away from the mergers and acquisitions, there are several media companies taking on the establishment with their self-built projects. But can you name the self-made brands from these synopses written in the style of a home renovation TV show? And once again, Alex at Audio Network has taken this blink-and-you'll-miss-it brief from producer Matt and created a playlist to score today's game. It's the best of three, so buzz in with your names if you know the story.

34:53So Alex, you will say. Alex. And Conrad, you will say. Conrad. Let's play Grand Designers. The idea started above a pizzeria and Japanese restaurant in California. Three people working for free. But this is now a$4 trillion company and a property you cannot miss in the media landscape. It's a website. It's owned by a big media company. People watch a lot of media on it. Alex. Yes. YouTube. Yes. Okay. Oh, no way. Okay. So YouTube in the news this week because... They're on the Barb rating system now. They are. And they've been on for a little while. And they've revealed that it has more reach in the UK than the BBC for the first time.

35:43it was only it was always going to happen at some point well i think last time i came on which was last year i was telling you that i'd had a conversation in the corridors of itv and they were saying that most of their content is now watched on youtube more than anywhere else what's the splits like on on your shows they there's a lot of tv like television watching versus mobile and yeah there is i would say on youtube it's something like 30 40 percent is on smart tvs yeah and i was i was surprised that milestone hadn't already been reached because it certainly feels like that when I go home and I look around our house and the kids are watching from a yield basis of the is the ad money better if it's a tv viewer versus a mobile viewer good question I don't think there's a lot different okay I'm pretty confident it's exactly the same um but you know I suppose it's interesting as program makers to be thinking about the experience and the fact that it's shows that were at one point just a couple of people in a bit like this and how you can you you can deliver the quality for a big screen.

36:43I think expectation increases. Yeah, completely. And they are choosing to consume you versus Netflix or BBC One. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, okay, it's their choice, but you've got to see like you're competing a little bit. We're all fighting in the attention economy, aren't we? And, you know, you've got to keep the quality. Okay, question number two. Paul has been cobbling together his property over the past four years. He was mocked by his neighbours for the ambition. and yet as we stand here today his critics would have to applaud his tenacity oh my god these are they're very cryptic he's built a TV channel it's one that's in the news a lot itself is a news channel GB News sorry Alex Alex yes sorry do I lose a point or am I you're forgiving a stern look yes yeah GB News what's the story they have they have more average Their viewership, their average viewership is higher than the BBC.

37:42Yes. So GB News says it's beaten both BBC News Channel and Sky News on average viewership for six months in a row. Which is a great headline, but doesn't really mean as much as it sounds like it means. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, there's a part of me that goes, well, I wouldn't choose to watch a lot of GB News, but they've clearly found an audience who were there every night. whereas on Sky News and BBC News Channel people aren't necessarily tuning in religiously every day. So the small but loyal GB News audience sits down and just watches that every night. They feel underrepresented elsewhere they want the echo chamber and so they're going to go to GB News and also I'm pretty sure it broadcasts less hours so fundamentally it's much easier for it to have a higher average viewership.

38:30No disrespect to GB News. No, none. Okay, question number three. Reid, Ted and Greg are looking to expand into a neighbouring property. Conrad. Ah, yes. Netflix. This is Netflix. What's the deal today? They, obviously we know they're trying to buy Warner Brothers Discovery and they've shifted to an all cash offer in a hope to speed things along and get shareholder approval for the deal. Is there a sentence that encapsulates the change in the media landscape better than Netflix are buying Warner Brothers? A company that is less than 30 years old is buying one of the oldest movie studios in Hollywood.

39:15I mean, look, on the one hand... If they get it. I think they're going to get it now. I think they're going to get it. I mean, Paramount have been poo-pooed enough. I don't know that they're going to come back with anything else. On the one hand, as a Netflix subscriber, assuming they don't hike up that subscription fee any higher, you're going to get access to so much amazing content and IP that Warner Brothers own. But as a fan of the theatrical experience, I know Netflix have said we are going to continue to release Warner Brothers films in the cinema, which is great. If it stays that way, fine.

39:48But how long are they going to be in the cinema is the big thing. I think the most damage that's been done to people going to the cinema and the number of audiences attending their local cinema is how long films are staying in the cinema. That window between home video and cinema has decreased to, you know, in some instances, especially if the movie doesn't open big, to a few weeks, a couple of weeks sometimes. Well, as a consumer, you're like, oh, it's got to be around pretty quickly. Exactly. And if you're sitting at home going, I'll just wait a couple of weeks, then there's no incentive to go to the cinema.

40:23And if Netflix, being a streamer primarily, are going to do that regularly, regardless of the box office, well, then, you know, it's not going to be great for exhibitors at all. And I think they've said already this could be the death knell of the cinematic experience. I mean, for Netflix, it's quite a prize. I mean, they said they wouldn't really get into acquisitions, but this is more... This was irresistible. No one else would like... They don't want anyone else to have it. No, and I love the fact that you can just go, oh, all right, well, we'll just give you it all in cash. You're in a position as a business to go, all right, no, fair enough.

40:57Yeah, it reminds me, I once interviewed Mickey Rourke, and it was all organised, and then this little guy who worked for him just came over and went, Mickey's not going to sit down unless he gets five grand in cash now. I won't tell you the broadcaster, but a motorbike courier arrived with literally a bag containing five grand in cash, which he took, and then Mickey sat down to do the interview. It's that level of business. That's good negotiation. That's good negotiation. It clearly works. Well done, Alex, for winning the careers. Well done, thank you. To one. There's your special prize. You can go away and try and get us a theatrical release every week.

41:34Come back and tell us how you get on. My thanks to Alex, Conrad and Jake earlier. Thanks again to Alex at Audio Network for supplying today's music. Remember, Audio Network can do that for you too. Just head to audionetwork.com or click the link in the show notes. Before we go, where can people keep up with you and what you're doing, Alex? At Alex Zane on Instagram is probably the best place. And I guess subscribe to the podcast. Please do, yes. The Savoy Originals available on all good podcast platforms and it starts on Friday. Great. And Conrad? Yeah, goalhanger.com for everything Goal Hanger related.

42:12All our shows obviously have their own Instagram and YouTube channels. Follow those. And I'm on LinkedIn, Conrad Withy. Excellent. Thank you both. And thank you to you for watching and listening. My name is Matt Deegan. The producer was Olly Pitt. It was a Rethink Audio production with video support from Podcast Discovery. I'll see you next week.

42:37So, retrospectors, what historical events are we ticking off on this week's run of Today in History? On Monday, the anniversary of the treason scandal that divided France. On Tuesday, we explain how America fell in love with ice rinks. On Wednesday, they didn't come from Harlem and they didn't travel the world, but the Harlem Globetrotters still broke the mould. On Thursday, Britain's first black member of Parliament, who was surprisingly pro-slavery. And on Friday, long before the national mourning for Princess Diana, the nation stopped for Lord Nelson's funeral. That's Today in History with The Retrospectives.

43:09Ten minutes each weekday, wherever you get your podcasts.