LHF Ban, RTS Cambridge and FT Drama

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1:20Hello, welcome to the Media Club. I'm your host, Matt Deegan. In the club today, is the TV industry ready for the latest advertising ban? And why is radio set to profit from it? TV consultant Stephen Arnell joins us to explain more. Also on the pod, the rise of fake journalists and PRs. Charlotte Tobit, UK editor of Press Gazette, takes us down the rabbit hole. All that, plus news from the RTS convention with media writer Kate Bulkley And the FT launches a new film starring Stephen Fry. We speak to the FT's Julie Riddell about marrying journalism with fiction. And in the media quiz, we take our guests into the Trump media landscape.

1:57But that's all happening in this edition of the Media Club. Come on in.

2:06Lots of fascinating media stories to go through this week. But before we do, who have our guests nominated to be new members of the club? the Press Gazette's UK editor Charlotte Tobit here responsible for journalism to journalists but who are you going to nominate this week? So I've decided to nominate Stuart Forrest who is Global Audience Director at Bauer Media I know you had Carly Stephen, Head of SEO at the Mail on not that long ago and basically they were both on a panel that I did at Press Gazette's Future Media Technology Conference last week just to give us a retrospective plug. But talking about all things AI, and I just, I thought, I was trying to think basically across the whole conference day, who would be one person?

2:52I could tell I obviously couldn't do Carly. She's already in the club. But Stuart's been really good at the disruption that publishers are facing from AI, the changes to AI search, kind of how to block the bots and what publishers should be doing to look after themselves. and he's been quite good at talking about that openly recently, I think. Well, it's definitely something we need to know. So he's very welcome. And how was the event on the whole? Was it a good day? Yeah, I'm really pleased with how it went. It was the final full day of the tube strike, but we still got over 300 people, you know, adding chairs.

3:28So we're very happy. AI was obviously a recurring theme, but it actually wasn't too gloomy overall. The tone was quite optimistic about, like, I think publishers are seeing what their strengths are and how to make the most of them rather than just panicking about the threat to the changes from Google search and arrival of chat GPT and all of that. So, yeah, loads of positive stuff. I think I definitely love feeling quite energized. Good, good, good, good. And Stephen Ornell joins us for the first time, broadcast and streaming consultants and someone who created and was one of the first controllers for ITV3 and 4.

4:06So first time in the club, you're here, you get a plus one. Who are you adding? Someone who is fairly ubiquitous, who I actually met a few times, and I think I bought some shows from him, was Evan Shapiro. As everyone knows, he's Shapp, with his new Affinity Economy, which I still don't really understand, or his media cartography. But I always admire the fact that he does say truth to power as he sees it. And he has a point. I mean, he does become correct, say, months or even years after what he says. you think, oh, he was right at the time, even though I still find it slightly impenetrable to understand what he says, especially the cartography maps.

4:43But he's there, and he's made a huge career, really, in being a prognosticator. And I knew him back, I mean, I think I went to the Algonquin, if it was still there, in New York, and had a drink with him, because I bought some shows off him when I was at ITV4, and he was running IFC, some comedy show. And he was always an individualist, even then. So good luck to him, I think. Yeah, in today's media, he's someone who definitely stands out. And I think going by what you read, something he says on LinkedIn, and I don't know whether he's on X anymore, he certainly has a viewpoint. No, he's a good person to follow.

5:17And the maps are fascinating. As you said, you need to concentrate to make sure you understand what's pointing where. OK, into the media headlines we go. Is your business ready for the LHF ad ban? This is the new regulation about less healthy food, which comes into force on the 1st of October. This is going to affect advertising, particularly between half five and 9pm on TV and on demand content. Stephen, the ad industry has launched a campaign to drive awareness in the sector. But do you think everyone's aware of what's changing? Probably not. Certainly not myself. But the thing I was interested in was the radio is given a break from this or it's given a pass on it because it's sort of background for a lot of people.

6:02Sometimes you will put a radio on a commercial station, even if it's Classic FM, which is probably more my style. And you'll have an advert. But if they are doing burgers or things like that, which I doubt on Classic FM, but again, it will seep through. I mean, Charlotte, it is kind of fascinating. You've got a situation where the rules, they're quite tough. I mean, pretty much if you have any less healthy food, it's not really going to be on television much anymore. It's going to be on digital media much anymore either. But audio and podcasts have a bit of a carve out. Do you think we'll see a rush for McDonald's ads onto radio and podcasts?

6:37Yeah, probably. But what's interesting, the other interesting element is that initially there was a lot of panic among publishers. and that because it seemed like it was going to exclude all advertising from food and brands that had less healthy food and drink. So McDonald's wouldn't even have been able to advertise saying we're McDonald's, whereas they have now sorted that out and that's going to come into force so that there is an exemption for brand advertising. So that means that kind of publishers in the space that I cover but anyone you know tv and that as well I'm much less concerned than they were before because previously you would have just lost this whole chunk of advertisers but definitely if there are specific products you know if McDonald's is bringing back some amazing limited edition thing then yeah I mean radio and podcasts will be the the main way that they can tell people about that I mean just to just give out what you're saying there so basically like McDonald's can advertise that they are a store that sells food and a lot of brand advertising around that, but they can't talk about Big Macs.

7:41Exactly. Also, one of the things that I saw is brands themselves can advertise their own products. So, you know, they could make a YouTube series or a podcast series or produce any of their own media to talk about their products. I mean, Stephen, this is sort of everybody's a content creator now. Do you think this will encourage more brands actually to make material if they're sort of frozen out of the more traditional media? Definitely. I mean, it's something that I'm contemplating in a small way as well with companies I work with. It's, you know, again, YouTube is, despite what Thinkbox say, it is YouTube is the coming thing.

8:18And it's also looking to hook up with brands to get something that's sort of simpatico with your idea. But we'll do both of you. We won't be too intrusive in the show, but we'll certainly highlight the brand itself. um charlotte it's interesting you know radio and podcasts get get a free pass but i noticed this week that the radio academy is planning on changing its name uh to the audio academy um do you think that's the right thing to reflect the changing world or is it is it sad for the radio types who who lose their sector organization i think it makes sense doesn't it i mean so much of radio now also goes into podcasting and and i'm sure there's examples of vice versa it's a bit like TV broadcasters putting stuff on YouTube or other formats.

9:03It's just, it's interchangeable. You have to do it in a slightly different way, but the essence is the same, that it's just about the point of delivery, really. So, yeah, I think that makes total sense. OK, first signs of Channel 4's own strategy are beginning to emerge as indie Firecrest Films announced that the public broadcaster had acquired a majority stake in the documentary producer. Stephen, only a fortnight ago we were saying the market for acquisitions had seized up, but Channel 4 are suddenly kind of jumping into this space. I imagine they're not spending billions, but the production company Firecrest, quite an interesting one out of Scotland.

9:47Do you think it's a good first start for them as they head into the production landscape? It's also whether you agree with, I mean, Channel 4 for me, sorry to paraphrase John Lennon, it's a bit like his quote about Jesus. Channel 4 is all right, but it's the disciples who are boring and thick, I always think. So I'm afraid that's my view on the management of Channel 4, the current management. I think, in a way, there's a lot of feather bedding going on in terms of going into independence after leaving jobs and things like that. So I see through things through a very cynical lens that they're investing money.

10:18Maybe when they jump ship, they might end up as heads of controllers or heads of development. Very cynical viewpoint, but I know other people have it as well. I think as well it has occurred to me if you're going to they're setting up their own in-house structure in some ways why not just buy one off the shelf buy a bigger company that does an all singing or dancing company rebrand it's channel 4 productions then then you solve the problem you've got something with an established back catalogue as well and one that's probably presumed been selling to channel 4 rather than going through all the fuss of hiring someone to do it being ring fenced by Bechtu and other people quite rightly and packed I thought it It makes more sense to buy another company.

10:54Of course, the thing is that Indies at the moment would be thinking, well, great, they bought Firecrest. How much more money can they pump into it? And we are surviving day to day, which I wonder about as well. But surely this is what Channel 4 should be doing. They could have done that. They could have bought a big production company and rebranded it. But, you know, sporting a company that's in the regions. It looks like one that takes a lot of people on for their first job in telly. It's less big showbiz commissions, a lot of documentary commissions. Isn't that in keeping with Channel 4's ethos?

11:25Well, define Channel 4's ethos, yeah. I mean, is there an ethos of Channel 4 anymore, really? I mean, I've doubted that since the days of the mid-2000s, or even before then. But I think it's going to be very difficult to square it with a mission to give independence in the regions, because life doesn't really work out the way you assume it will. I think, yeah, Firecrack, Firecrack, rather, is great. You know, it's a good, on paper, very good acquisition. it fits with the brand but again it's the slippery slope is it going to be this one and then the next one so you'll now you've got your own production company just like the bbc so we let them get away with it but they're not a commercial company allegedly uh it's difficult to see that how the smaller production companies who occasionally i work for will see this as anything other than them getting squeezed out even more uh finally just before the break it was the rts cambridge convention this week a media writer kate bulkley was there and she joins me now okay quite a lineup this year, Jeff Zucker from Redbird IMI joining the BBC's Tim Davey, Charlotte Moore now at Left Bank slash Sony.

12:29What was the mood amongst those top execs? Well, it's so interesting because, you know, you never quite know until you get there. I mean, there was the usual sort of, we have to back creative talent. You know, we have to figure out how to make programs in a tighter, more competitive market. You know, we have to invest in the next generation of skills and bring the next group up. But the room kind of went silent when there was a little explosion, Joe Ravitch of Rain, and Rain is an investor and advisor to the media industry. He's big, as somebody called him, a silverback. So he's a big, heavy hitter, let's say, in the business.

13:06And he said, tech companies are the enemy of creative storytelling, as we know it. There's been a lot of talk already, he said, about YouTube. YouTube, he said, now is 13 % share of all large CTV viewing in the U.S., in other words, meaning big screen viewing in the U.S. So it's growing. And obviously we've seen similar numbers here in the U.K. And so he basically said the trick is how do you get paid from this growing platform? You can't ignore YouTube, but you don't want to put all your eggs in one basket. But how do you actually get paid? And, of course, what was interesting then is the other panelist, another big exec from the U.S.

13:46on the panel was, Kevin Mayer, who you may remember used to work in a little company called Disney and ran TikTok for a nanosecond. And he basically said, you know, YouTube is the fastest growing platform. Yes, we know that. But he says monetization is lumpy. Because why? Well, because they can tweak the algorithm at any moment, right? So one day you're earning 9 million from putting a, you know, moon bug, whatever it is, little baby bum out there. And the next moment you're earning 2 million. And it's just because they've tweaked the algorithm. So you're a hostage to this, you know, this big tech giant.

14:21So suffice it to say that there was a lot of talk about YouTube and sort of the problem with the fact that big tech is basically running a lot of the world now in terms of distribution. And were there any answers from the execs about how they would extract some money from those big companies? Well, yes. I mean, the big one is, of course, we're now looking. Well, you can negotiate with YouTube. Obviously, when we had the PSB panel later, we had, you know, we had Tim Davey and Jonathan Allen, who's the interim CEO of Channel 4. And Jonathan said, you know, it took us months to make our new deal with YouTube.

14:56We got we got you know, we got pretty far. We're fairly happy with it. We need to have it on YouTube, our content. But, you know, if we would work collectively and as a group, we'd probably have more leverage. So and that was one of the themes that came out of the conference. Tim Davey also echoed this. Not only do they all say we need more speed in terms of getting certain things through, like, okay, due prominence has been agreed now, which is where, you know, you get those PSB channels on devices and things, but it needs to get implemented, right? So it's like, come on, guys, let's get going.

15:30It was the same with this. It was sort of, you know, how do we get scale? How do we get speed? So that was, you know, clearly they don't have all the answers, but that's one way to do it. Sure. I mean, there's always a big discussion at that event about commissioning and the creation of content. What's the big worry at the moment or is everyone in a happy place? I would say they're not in a happy place, but when are creators ever in a happy place? On the other hand, you know, I think we've gone from sort of, you know, this peak TV thing where there was so much money being thrown at the industry to now there's been a pullback.

16:05And obviously, even the big tech platforms, be it Netflix or Apple or any of them, are, let's say, commissioning less. They want bigger, better, less. So there's, quote, less money. So you have to, again, you have to go back to the old how do you cobble together a commission? How do you get the money together? How do you pull it together? But one thing that I thought was really, really interesting was when we had John Langeth. Now, John Langeth, you know, is the chairman of FX, right? I mean, he's another big U.S. suit. I don't even want to say suit because he's really a creator. But, you know, he's been there two decades.

16:42I guess their content here is on Disney+. Yes. Well, yes. Shogun, members, I mean, that's him. The bear is him. So he's done a lot of, you know, really top-notch content. But what he said was he said, we need to make sure that we push for the culture economy and not the attention economy. Now, what did he mean by that? He said, you know, short form content on the Internet doesn't have any of that sort of subtext or layered meaning that a really long form scripted, you know, high premium drama has. Right. I mean, a Shogun's a perfect example. Right. It was very layered, quite complicated. Game of Thrones is another example.

17:24These are layered. You know, you have to pay attention. You can't you know, this isn't something you just do at a bus stop in four seconds when you have time. So what he was saying is, you know, we have to make sure that this is where storytelling, this is where we're good. This is what we do. So we have to make sure that we keep doing that. And he also said something that I thought was really interesting. He said, big tech is not in the business of creating culture. Big tech is in the business of creating attention. I mean, that's, you know, and it was, so there was in the room, people were like, okay, I get it.

17:58Not that you can't, not that you need to ignore short form. You have to do that too. But you also have to remember that you have to lean into this other stuff. And there was a little bit of angst about, do people actually want long-form content anymore? I think they do. The question is, how do they find it? Right? And that's another thing. Also, obviously, the other thing he talks about a lot is like future of PSBs. Always around the corner is another investigation into the future of public service broadcasting. How are the PSBs feeling at the event? When they had the PSB panel, they had, you know, all the big suits up there, Karen LeCoff from ITV, JA from Channel 4, Tim.

18:36They had Sarah Rose and her swan song, because of course she's leaving now to go work for the Royal Foundation, but she runs five in the UK. Basically, they all were saying, you know, we have started to collaborate more together and we realize that we need to do more of that. So we have to scale better and faster. And what does that mean? Maybe they can share tech stacks. Maybe they can cut their operating costs. Maybe they can work on, you know, there's three ad sales houses in this country. Maybe they don't need three ad sales houses. Maybe there's a way to do that. Maybe there's a way to lower overheads.

19:11So that kind of stuff. Then they got it as more nitty gritty, you know, tax credits. Obviously, they want a tax credit that mirrors what the film industry gets because it works. We know it works, right? So they want the lower, but you know, the 1 million to 3 million per rep dramas to get a tax credit. This is 40%, you know, 50%. That's what they want. Because they know that will help, right? They know that will help bridge the gap so that they can continue to make good stuff. They also talked about the speed thing again. Okay, we've got two promenade. Let's get it out there. Let's get it working.

19:44One fact that's, I'm trying to remember who said it. I think it was Jane Featherstone. She said 25 % of the shows that could have been shot in the UK actually moved overseas because we didn't have the proper tax credits. So, I mean, that was the thing. The other thing I think that there was a lot of angst about was sort of what we do about AI. You know, should we be using it? How do we use it? And if AI is going to start scraping our content or taking our content, how do we get paid for it? And another big name that came to the conference was Nick Clegg, who had an answer. And of course, remember Nick Clegg had just come back from being a meta, you know, former government minister, politician.

20:25He was very strong. He basically said, you know, we're seeing the globalization of technology and the deglobalization of politics. And what we're seeing is if we're not careful, particularly around AI, we're going to get the sloppy seconds of the UK-US deal. Because what's going to happen is, you know, obviously the US wants, you know, data centers. They had all the big tech people here this week with Trump. They want all that kind of stuff. And what they want in return is they want our data. Like maybe they want our NHS data. They want all the AI data they can use. And so what Clegg was saying is don't give it to them.

21:01Get something in return. Don't take sloppy seconds. You've got to stand up for this. This is really important. Your IP and controlling the content is really important. When Nick Clegg is our saviour, we know we have to worry. Kate Barkley, thank you very much. You're welcome.

21:25Hello, Media Club listeners. Patrick here from Podcast Discovery, the podcast marketing company, where this week we've been thinking about podcast marketing beyond social clips and trailer swaps. We do them too, don't get me wrong, and they can be very powerful. But how do you get a feature interview for your host in a big publication? Or end up in the showcase slot on the homepage of Apple Podcasts? What about throwing a launch event? Or spending a budget wisely? Ask us at podcastdiscovery.com. That's podcastdiscovery.com. your team just added its 67th ai tool and also your 67th security blind spot the good news the vanta agent works like a grc engineer in the background finding every app your team uses scoring the risk and drafting fixes for you vanta is the platform used by over 16 000 fast-moving companies like ramp cursor and harvey who are shaping the future with ai and staying ahead of AI risk.

22:22Get started at Vanta.com. Shipping, billing, admin, payroll, marketing. You're managing all the things. So why waste time sending important documents the old-fashioned way? Mail and ship when you want, how you want with Stamps.com. Print postage on demand 24-7 and schedule pickups from your office or home. Save up to 90 % with automated rate shopping. That's why over 1 million small businesses trust stamps.com. Go to stamps.com and use code podcast to try stamps.com risk-free for 60 days.

22:58Welcome back. Here's a few stories we've been discussing in the club this week. YouTube have announced plans to use AI to help audio-only podcasters promote their shows with clips and shorts. Speaking at their Made on YouTube event in New York, the company said clips would roll out in the coming months with tools for shorts following next year. Taking a leaf out of the podcasting playbook, YouTube will also allow its creators to dynamically insert their own sponsorships into their videos. Elsewhere, the publisher behind Delicious Magazine has gone into liquidation. Eye to Eye, who also has deals with Waitrose and Fortnum & Masons, closed at the end of August.

23:35It had 24 employees listed on its website. And The Sun and The Times have fallen foul of another rogue PR firm. Both publications pulling articles concerning a former cleaner for the Royals, who may not be all it seems. Prescott investigated the veracity of the stories, which also appeared in major Reach titles, The Mirror and The Express, all of which are, at the time of recording, still live. More from Charlotte on that in a bit. Links to all of our stories are available on our weekly sub-stack. Sign up now at themediaclub.com, where you also get our new brief newsletter, where we round up all the other media podcasts and what they're talking about, What?

24:13There are others? Yes, go and sign up for free at themediaclub.com. Now, the Financial Times launched a new drama this week. Its star is Stephen Fry, and it tells the story of a man with dementia who turns to AI to plug gaps in his memory. It's co-directed by Juliette Riddell, who we'll hear from in a moment. But first, let's hear a clip. I want to be rebuilt. Jackie. Jackie! No! It doesn't just recreate his old memories, it also improves his working memory. It's amazing. That was a clip from Recall Me Maybe. Its co-director is here, Juliette Riddell. Hello. Hello. Thanks for joining us. It's a really great film.

25:02I really enjoyed watching it. And it's a film from the Financial Times who you don't always think of straight away for drama. So where did this all come from? Well, I've actually been doing it for a little while, a number of years, and they haven't just been dramas. They've also been everything from kind of music videos that I've done with Nitin Sawney to animations, one written by Margaret Atwood, which was particularly exciting. And the idea with them is that a lot of the big, broader new subjects are so big that you don't write about one piece. and they have themes that are seeping into society in more organic, nebulous, difficult ways to explain.

25:47And of course, drama has always and has a long tradition of expressing current issues, but these are a little bit more on the nose, I suppose. They are quite specifically about a news story and the FT have been supportive in teasing out very important issues that we do want to communicate particular things about in this form. So, for example, James Graham wrote a piece about data and privacy that was a drama. And that was a very, very tangible example of quite a complicated subject, like why we care that companies might be taking our data, because it's the sort of subject where you think, I think I care, but it doesn't really relate to me.

26:31And it's sort of something easy to forget about. So making it very human is very effective in communicating something that is important from a news organisation's perspective. So does it work in the same way like a news organisation would kind of commission a writer to write a piece, a more traditional factual piece? Is it the same way they commission it just in a different art form? The short answer is yes, it's very similar to that. So David Baddiel was at an awards ceremony, The Rose Doors, where he was the emcee of the night. and one of the previous films, which was about online harm, written by Nina Segal and starring Jodie Whittaker and Paul Reddy from Motherland, Kevin in Motherland, he hadn't seen these films before, why would he?

27:13And was surprised at this genre. And then we kind of got talking and he thought it was actually a really interesting idea to write something like this. So it was a commission, but it came out of a very collaborative conversation about subjects that we were interested in. And the piece is interesting. It touches on AI. He's given Stephen Fry dementia. He's maybe suggested that there are also some problems in his past. How did he get involved? Was that an easy call from David to Stephen to say, hop aboard my short film? Yes, they did know each other. Stephen really loved the script and he wouldn't have done it had he not really loved it.

27:54And you probably know that Stephen's really, really interested in AI and has had his own voice stolen and has done talks about AI and the threats to do with AI, yet also the opportunities. And he's a very interesting, incredibly well-informed, as you imagine, person on technology. So this subject really resonated with him. So, yes, there was someone that he could reach out to, but it was the subject that I think really pulled him in. I know that he and the team work with some of the FT journalists on this, the innovation editor, the AI editor, I think science editor as well. What's that process like, sort of collaborating with more traditional journalists on something like this?

28:34I think it's one of my favourite moments. I think it's really exciting to see the creative writers and the journalists sort of feed off each other. And the journalists are able to sort of use their more creative parts of themselves to think about things that are more emotional or think about the subjects that are harder to explain in the way they normally would. but also they're feeding the creative writer hard sort of facts about what this issue is that are very stimulating for the writer so I think it's a two-way very creative and interesting place and every time I've done these workshops everybody's really loved them.

29:13So we've talked sort of on the show quite a bit about you know high-end drama being in sort of quite high demand for streamers We've seen that Channel 5 have recommissioned play for today. Where do you think kind of digital drama comes into that? And you're doing something for a large publisher. It's sort of short form. I think it's about 13, 14 minutes long. Where does it fit into the panthelon of everything else that's going on at the moment? I hope that it does still feel like something of the FT in that it absolutely is part of a very fabulous tradition of this kind of work. and many different organisations and many brilliant people have done incredible examples of this.

29:54And we've all been reminded because of adolescence and the post office scandal, how drama and relationship with news and current affairs is so fundamental. It absolutely sits in a kind of culture that's brilliant and thriving and interesting. But I think my job is to still make it feel financial times-ish and not like you would see similar content on the BBC. where that sits for this is that it is particularly current so often it does look maybe slightly forward or feels like it's sort of right on the edge of the news it's not it's not retrospective in any way so I say you know like the post office scandal was more about something that had happened and still related to now but was still drawing on a past narrative whereas with these they I hope they still feel very sort of of like today and you know this film has launched in a week where there's announcements about AI investment because Trump's here.

30:49So it feels like this is now. Just before we go, I'm intrigued about some of the production process because there's quite a bit of AI in it. I don't want to spoil it. Yeah. And there are some bits I looked at and go and went, oh, was that Stephen Fry just old VT of him? Or was that all generated AI? What was that like to work with, I guess, almost as another character in it? Well, it was really, really hard work. There is an amazing, amazing producer here who's in-house at the FT and he's called Tom Hannon and huge props to him because it was a lot of work to generate that. and it was a huge learning process and that footage is all AI generated but for every image you see there were literally thousands that looked really weird and didn't look like Stephen Fry or he was doing you know walking backwards or upside down or sometimes there'd be like three bowls of spaghetti rather than one bowl of spaghetti and there'd be like sometimes there'd be like really random things would happen like a giant inflatable bouncy ball would kind of come into shot or something so the process was a lot more arduous than i had anticipated or tom had anticipated and that was a huge learning curve for us in the newsroom actually juliet thank you for that if you want to watch the piece it's available on ft.com right now thank you very much thank you we've also put a link in the show notes and on our sub stack a sub stack which you should subscribe to at themediaclub.com as well as getting all the info about the show each week.

32:25Every Monday, we're sending out an email called Briefed, which summarizes all of the other media podcasts out there. So telly, audio, journalism, Hollywood, it's all there. Sign up at themediaclub.com. Okay, Stephen and Charlotte have returned. Charlotte, since you're last on the show, you've been delving into the world of Margeau Blanchard, which we've been following here. um just give us a recap on the story if someone's new to it yeah sure so basically um it was this freelance journalist who's been pitching plenty of stories and in around kind of april and may margot uh was published in the likes of wired business insider um sf gate which is a big publication in san francisco um a few smaller publications and um yeah basically eventually Actually, someone called Jacob Freddy, who edits Dispatch, which is a new long form site, he got in touch because he said, I think I kind of sussed out this AI pitch and isn't this weird?

33:34And I think she's been published elsewhere. so I looked into it from there Wyatt had actually already taken down the piece she'd written for them which was about online weddings in platforms like Minecraft, the Business Insider ones were still up, they were kind of op-ed type things anyway so kind of interrogated it a bit couldn't find any trace of Margot Blanchard being a real journalist so kind of got in touch with all the publications that published her and then between Tuesday and then we published on Thursday like almost all of them had removed their articles by her and then since then in fact they are all down since our article an ex account for Margot popped up so we're like that's weird we we had some exchange of conversation with with this person and I mean that all that still all seems a bit weird like the pictures are like almost definitely AI generated and then in the conversation the person said that they were someone who has previously done AI hoaxes so like you know we kept saying well can we talk to you properly and obviously they didn't anyway so that's kind of Margot and then the like City AM Magazine's editor found their own version of Margot which was a person that he managed to track down to Nairobi and that was kind of proved to be like a financial motivation so you know like freelance journalism fees are pretty meagre often but to someone in Africa that might be worth a lot more money and they can now do that with AI.

35:13Overall it just it just shows the risk of working with someone that you haven't fully verified and then I mean I haven't even gone into the PR side of it yet. Yeah so there's also been a sort of a rising kind of fake prs as well trying to get their material out there too yeah so the the motivations for this seem to be that um if the pr agency or or whatever agency gets a mention for a company client in a national news brand then obviously that's good for their seo and and all of that um so there's some really random companies that have been promoted but yeah so journalists are just getting kind of an influx this year it seems like it's getting worse and worse of PR agencies that either aren't really real or or like basically pushing fake experts uh we had we had one um this week that was about a supposed royal cleaner for King Charles and her cleaning tips from working at Buckingham Palace and um it just doesn't seem like that's a real person and then And if you read the stories, it's like told Plumwell, she told Plumwell.

36:19And it's like, well, you know, if that was a legit source, that just wouldn't be what it was, would it? Can we can we just move all the AI PRs and all the AI journalists together and they can just like write each other's stuff and it can just exist maybe in the cloud away from anything else? That would be helpful. Is this just the sort of the knock on from there being also less people at publishers that these things are sort of slipping through and they wouldn't have done previously? Or has the technology just evolved such that actually it is quite hard to work out whether these people have got some alternatives?

36:55Yeah, I think it's a combination. So, I mean, Wired, when they put something out in the past couple of weeks about that piece that they had taken down, they basically said it hadn't gone through the fact check processes that it should have done. Business Insider have actually now taken down a load of pieces by other people that they're saying they now have doubts over their veracity. And I think it is just in this model of publishing essentially as much as possible, then it is hardly a surprise nowadays that some of this would slip through. OK, well, no AI to be used in the Audio Network Media quiz.

37:34We're going to see how much attention you've both been paying to the media news this week. This week's quiz is called ANMQ Breaking News with the president in London. We're looking at the attention UK media has been giving to America this week with three stories for you to unpick. And once again, Alex Audio Network has taken that so-called brief from producer Matt and created a playlist of music to score today's game. It's the best of three. So buzz in with your names if you know the story. So Charlotte, you will say. Charlotte. And Stephen, you will say. Stephen. Let's play A &MQ Breaking News.

38:16this just in and which tv station has been broadcasting what it called the longest uninterrupted reel of untruths channel four sorry steven right you see new to the quiz new to the quiz uh yes steven who is it channel four sorry it is channel four what have they what have they aired they grab three hours of trump line which is pretty much standard for it for his waking three hours or whatever he does. So it's not exactly a shocker, is it? So, yeah. This was Trump versus the truth on Wednesday. I thought it was some quite good sort of, just a bit of prickly programming to do at the right time. Yeah, I mean, as I commented, it's not like we had Boris Johnson on election night and it was quite tedious as well.

38:59Well, we had it on air here, probably unlikely to be aired in America, particularly if you're regulated by the FCC. We've seen a late-night talk show host, Stephen Colbert, cancelled apparently nothing to do with what he says about the president. And now Jimmy Kimmel has been sort of put on involuntary leave for how long we'll see. I mean, even in this world of lots and lots of broadcasters, you sort of think it's a talent's world, but you'd be scared, wouldn't you, Stephen, if you're a comedian over in the States? Yes, I think it's the speed of it. The speed of the crouching authoritarianism is amazing to some people, not to others.

39:40But I think also, I think here we've tended to be, I think it was at the RTS today, there was a statement put out about how we will keep ourselves impartial and politics. But people forget Paramount control own Channel 5. And Paramount are very much the new ownership of Paramount, David Ellison, I believe, are very much Trump friendly. So also having Piers Morgan back in his show as well, it gave me a thought, maybe think, well, maybe little by little, we might see a similar thing. OK, question number two. And Trump is on the warpath against another media outlet who he's suing for$15 billion. Charlotte.

40:20New York Times. Stephen, I don't know. Sorry, Stephen. Oh, I think that was just Charlotte. New York Times. Yes, he's after$15 billion from the New York Times. What's his beef with them? that they're spreading false and defamatory content about him and being a mouthpiece for the Democratic Party and they interfered with the election last year by endorsing Kamala Harris as if that's not a regular practice. It's obviously absurd. Hopefully there's some kind of anti-strategic litigation against the press mechanisms in the US and hopefully this is the sort of thing that they'll be able to look at.

40:56But yeah, the New York Times CEO has described it as just like another thing in Trump's anti-press playbook and compared it to Turkey, Hungary and India. I mean, it's interesting. New York Times are in a slightly different place compared to sort of the ABC and CBS's of the world who sort of had other corporate business with the Trump administration. New York Times have been quite strong with their condemnation of Trump's sort of actions on the press and they're privately held. So Charlotte, they're in probably quite a good place to argue against it. Very healthy business. And I think that because of that structure that they have, that they'll definitely fight it.

41:36And they ought to, because it could have really serious implications otherwise. Well, I'm just going to have to stop you there as we have one more breaking story. What American institution is Channel 5 pinning its hopes on every Sunday this autumn, or should I say fall? Charlotte. Stephen. Oops, sorry. Charlotte, yeah, just the heads. Sorry. NFL yes this is NFL big game night Dermot O 'Leary hosted did you watch I think we had the first one this week did you watch it Charlotte I can't say I've ever watched NFL no join a club yeah I know they had a lot of problems on the first one and feeds and getting that to work for them anyway that makes Charlotte our winner congratulations Charlotte thank you as a prize you've just got to make sure Donald Trump doesn't set his sights on us I really can't take 90 more legal action it would be terrible my thanks to Stephen and Charlotte and also to Alex for supplying today's music remember Audio Network can do this for you just head to audionetwork.com and there's also a link in the show notes so before we go Stephen how can people keep up with you and the work that you're doing well I'm on LinkedIn quite frequently where I've cultivated 20 ,000 followers I believe I don't know why they're called followers I don't think actually people are following me as such but like a cult leader.

42:59But I'm doing that and I've got some articles out in the press, even a few paranormal investigations, which for some reason I do as well. And still trying to keep my hand in the TV world. I'm working with production companies on history documentaries and things like that. And I've got another book out, hopefully by the end of this year, a novel. So, you know, keep myself slightly out of mischief. Only slightly though. Well, good luck for the book release. And Charlotte, what's your social network of choice at the moment? Where do you spend your time? Yeah, also LinkedIn. And obviously you can see our stuff on pressgazette.co.uk.

43:32I'm Matt Deegan. The producer is Matt Hill. It was a Rethink Audio production with visual support from Podcast Discovery. Remember to sign up at our substack at themediaclub.com. And we'll see you next week.

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