Netflix Digs Deep For Warner As Paramount Fights Back

0:28Hello, welcome to the Media Club, I'm Matt Deegan. All that, plus Disney invests in open AI, Eurovision implodes, and in the Audio Network Media Quiz, we bring you up to date in the media transfer window. That's all coming up in this edition of the Media Club. Come on in.

0:46Once again, I've cornered two of the media's finest to join us here in the club. Faraz Osman, welcome back. Your background in TV and streaming production, credits with Apple Music, Channel 4 and the BBC. who would you like as your plus one in the club this week? Emil's a commissioning editor at UKTV but he was a freelancer previously and he's kind of gone you know what that moment in between Christmas and New Year it's a pretty bleak time for freelancers so he was like you want a one-to-one with me? give me an email drop me a LinkedIn post and we'll do that and that has now snowballed and there's loads of people that are now involved in that and Saida who was at the BBC and has now moved to Netflix she's doing one-to-one with people really big job she's got the big, big job and so there's some really big names they've all kind of agreed to come on board and give freelancers some one-to-ones at a much needed time.

1:36I just think it's a really lovely thing to do for Christmas. It's a big up Emile, he deserves all the flowers. And if you look at his LinkedIn and we'll put a note in the show notes you can see all his posts where he talks about the people that are involved. I think all the one-to-ones are booked up but it's still spreading so it wouldn't surprise me if more come available. So keep an eye out. Our next phrase we have filmmaker and documentarian the man who bought the world parkour It's Mike Christie. Hello. Lovely to have you on the sofa for the first time. You've got your membership card now.

2:03Who's going to be your first plus one? I'm going to shamelessly keep it in the family, but for good reason, and go for the managing director of Zinc Television, which is Tanya Shaw. And the main reason for that is that she won the Mercury Studios Business Award in the last few days at the Women in Film and TV Awards, and for good reason. I think she's inspired a massive number of people, and a lot of us have worked with them, obviously me for the last few years, but she was a great commissioner at Channel 4 and BBC and ran Shine for a very long time. Sometimes people who tend to try and just keep their profile a bit low get their spotlight shone very brightly on them, and it's sort of much deserved.

2:51She's a brilliant woman, and a brilliant manager. Well, both welcome additions to the club. In a moment, a Netflix bid for Warner Brothers. That's all after the break.

3:07Welcome back to the Media Club. Why is Netflix prepared to pay$82 billion for Warner Brothers? Faraz, tell us why. Because they've got a bit of spare change, they've got nothing better to do this week. Well, I think there are a few reasons. Number one, they kind of gobbled up every subscriber that's going to come. And so they have hit a certain plateau. And so two things need to happen now. They need more inventory. Netflix, weirdly, although it's got a very, you know, feels like it's got a very decent catalogue and it's very noisy and a lot of people talk about it, it doesn't have a very deep catalogue because it's still fairly new.

3:41So there's a lot of, like, legacy assets that Warner Brothers offer. Harry Potter, there's obviously all the HBO stuff. and as well as things that people watch over and over and over and over again, Friends, Big Bang Theory, these are things that actually are people's guilty pleasures. So Netflix owning all of them and gobbling them all up kind of makes a lot of sense for them and future-proofs their model and keeps subscribers very, very happy and as I imagine, allows them to kind of continue to incrementally put up their subscriber price and also get some more advertisers on board as well because at the end of the day, I think a lot of streaming services have recognised that the ad tier is becoming more and more attractive and if you've got lots of things that people want to advertise against because they know it already it kind of makes a lot of sense from that perspective and Warner's is kind of and you know, HBO Max's kind of work was always kind of almost like the fourth also ran, was too late into the market they needed a bit of a thing to keep them going and it made sense for them to kind of bank some cash now so it makes sense, obviously it's come off the back of this whole skydance paramount deal um so they were already in the market and um and i think it's it's put a lot of earthquakes in the industry um but netflix aren't aren't stopping they want to get bigger and bigger and bigger and mike is it easier to buy than to build just gotta check back out i mean it does get to the point where i don't know from a consumer point of view i think it almost becomes irrelevant.

5:11You know, the actual brand, you know, I think that Netflix is obviously the kind of massive platform that it is. But the apps I load most on my Apple TV are the ones that tell me which platform to go to to watch something. You know, it's just become this sort of UI soup. And that's a hard thing to navigate. And you just wonder, sort of, what is that going to kind of you know turn into I mean ironically I'd probably invest in the apps that show you where to go show you what to watch I think it's a really good point but I also think that you know we are in the media club and I think people who work in content and I'm working this well probably to have two or three subscriptions of different services I think a lot of people want one and I want to choose one and that's it and so the fight now is do you choose a Netflix that shall give you all of the content do you choose an amazon which will give you some shopping and it will give you some you know amazon fresh and then also give you some video content as well is that the direction you want to go in and i think that people are recognizing that subscriptions are getting expensive now so you're probably going to choose one and if you're going to choose one it's going to be the biggest one in the room so that has what's caused problems i think for paramount plus and hbo max and and the other streaming services that are subscriber based but it's meant that netflix have gone we need to make sure that we keep control of that and the best way to do that is gobble this all up.

6:37And the last thing to say is that, like, I think that there's also so many bits of IP that suddenly Netflix will own. DC Studios, Harry Potter, these are massive, massive franchises that when you look at Netflix's originals work, there's only a couple. Stranger Things is coming to an end. You know, House of Cards, we shall not speak its names. Wednesday, maybe. Wednesday is doing all right for them. Sex Education is finished. There's not actually, when we look at the Netflix franchises that are out there, Squid Game and Stranger Things aside, both of which don't look like they're going to have a significant shelf life beyond the next series that are coming out or the ones that's out now.

7:15They do need these much, much bigger franchises. Bond's already gone to Amazon. So, you know, picking up Harry Potter in a DC universe is a big boon for them. I mean, that's the answer to the original question as well. I think that those IPs, those titles that are the motivation, much more than, obviously you've got director and producer in Hollywood coming out with some pretty vocal opposition. Everyone from Christopher Nolan to Jane Fonda. No, they want all of Christopher Nolan's work as well. Yeah, absolutely. Which is wild when you think about how Christopher Nolan's a bit like, no, everything must be in IMAX, it must be in the cinema, and Netflix are a bit like, no, you can watch it on your phone, you'll be all right.

7:52Yeah, and that makes sense. in the sense that that's a rarefied kind of arena for a very high-end historical product, cinemas. And you can understand why there's that panic. You're a filmmaker. Do you look at this and go, there's one less person to sell to? For me, I've got one specific sort of experience working with Discovery during the whole Warner Brothers kind of rebrand. And I saw how much kind of uncertainty that caused amongst the ranks there. But for me personally, it's a strange one because I've made a lot of stuff that has had big audiences on a global level, but I would never say any of that work is mainstream.

8:38And so the work that I do is a bit more specialist in a way, regardless of the fact it's not very, very niche. And I think even though a deal like this, I think it calms shareholders, but it kind of flattens culture. But that culture still needs its kind of standout moments. It's sort of rough diamonds. It's the things that make some noise in different ways. And so as a creative, we're creatives. We're meant to adapt, and I think we do ultimately. But I do appreciate the fact that it's a massive pressure on a lot of different businesses who are much more reliant on pipelines full of IP and a much more competitive set of opportunities than possibly where I'm working.

9:32Also, for us, we talk about Netflix, but they might not be the ones that get it. So we've seen that Paramount, Paramount Skydance have put in a bid to take the whole company. Netflix only really wants the sexy studios end of WBD. Do you think Paramount are going to steal it from under Netflix's nose? I mean, I don't think it's a done deal. They have put in a really, really punchy bid. It's certainly, I was thinking that it's because the bid is by David Ellison who started Skydance and has kind of consumed Paramount and is now looking at it, was one of the first players into this conversation. And I just think it's hilarious because his dad is Larry Ellison, who is the Oracle founder and depending on what day of the week is one of the richest men in the world.

10:17And I just love the fact that But like when I was growing up, I'd like a DVD for Christmas. And like it's almost like David Edison's gone up to his dad and gone, Daddy, can I have like Warner Brothers, please, for Christmas? It's like such a mad world that we live in. But I think that it's a bid that has to be considered. And I think that's why they put the numbers out there. I mean, the money keeps going up and it's in at$30. It probably will go up to$35 or even more. Is Warner Brothers worth$100 billion? Well, there's also a lot of talk about the fact that actually, you know, this whole thing is a way of stopping a Paramount deal, right?

10:52And this could go on for a couple of years. And, you know, let's not forget the amazing venture that was Time Warner AOL. Yes, I mean, Warners have had this before. That was$150 billion,$160 billion. And there was another owner at some point. I can't remember exactly who it was. Small alert, AOL Time Warner didn't work. It didn't work. But this is one of the questions, because at that time, the question was always around CNN and what happens to CNN. And it's like, you know, Netflix aren't bidding for CNN. They're a bit like, I'm not interested in any of that. Like, Paramount are a bit like, we'll take it all.

11:27And, you know, that then suddenly piques the interest of Mr. Trump, President Trump. And, you know, he wants to obviously make sure that he's inserted into every single conversation, which includes this one. but to be honest when it comes to a news outlet like CNN it's not a surprise that suddenly it's caught the eye of a government regulator so not only is it a big outside business deal but there's also a kind of a media and news and political angle to all of this as well all of that needs to be ironed out and fleshed out and unfortunately because of the politics and the transactional nature that the Trump administration works in there is this kind of like people going in and out of the White House and with certain different gifts to kind of amuse the Oval Office.

12:10And it'll be interesting to see how that's going to shake out. But I don't think Netflix are doing this. I don't think they're in the business of doing this just to have a laugh. I think this is a serious bid from Netflix and they're expecting to win it. And I don't think that they would have put a bid in for it unless they were expected to go home. But kind of the worst case for them, though, they get, I think, three and a half billion dollars if it falls apart. so they get, you know, some cash. Also, they have put in paralysis into Warner Brothers and really into Paramount whilst they can kind of push on with the other things that they're doing.

12:45Absolutely. Look, I think the Paramount bid, whether or not, they need to take it seriously, but whether or not it is just a case to try and push up the money and, you know, make a bit of punishment. I think both bids are serious, but the general noise seems to be that the Netflix one is the one that's more likely to win out, not least because it's such a much more stable platform at the moment that if you were shareholders, it's not going to be all paid out overnight. You're going to want to see success for the IP and et cetera moving forward. And so the Netflix still gives you more security and stability.

13:20It may be a lower price, but it's probably going to pay the dividends across. Well, I guess whether the deal can be done. I mean, this is where President Trump does insert himself into this. We've got European regulators to deal with, too. I mean, HBO and HBO Max is pretty big in a lot of Europe. And I'm sure the EU won't have a say as well, won't they? Well, it's also interesting, isn't it, that at the moment, you know, when the EU do have a say that anything anyone in America in power doesn't like, they begin to kind of attack the EU for one reason or another. So that gets a bit confusing as well.

13:52It's interesting. So you don't believe that this is a kind of way of stalling a kind of inevitable paramount deal. It sounds like you're completely convinced by the... What the Netflix did? Yeah. Look, I don't think Netflix are in the business of making these sort of noises. Netflix don't like to lose. And I think that they would only put in a bid if they knew that they were going to land it. I think that there are regulatory and, you know, EU and America and et cetera, that they may come up against. Those are the hurdles I think that they need to jump over. I think that they would much rather, as any business would do, but at this level, you would much rather have somebody say to you you'd much rather have the government and regulators say you can't have it rather than have another competitor come in and say we're going to take it at a better price I think there's a bit of a challenge for Netflix by just being in for studios and staying out of the channels business staying out of the CNN business they can say, Sarandos can say to Trump, you know what we're not involved in the news we don't want to get involved in any of that, we're just going to look after this bit and maybe actually paramount they can have the channels if they want to buy the channels and you want to merge cbs news with cnn and barry weiss can run it all fine we just want to get on with this bit so maybe that's a strong sell it's a strong sell for ted sarandos i'm not sure that the ellisons will be just as attracted to that i think they they want harry potter they want dc like it's you know in the same way that um uh that netflix does and that is and fortunately and unfortunately that is where all the value is.

15:25The value isn't in the legacy media channels. It is in the pre-existing IP. And the other thing to say as well is that my understanding is that Netflix don't have as mature of a studio setup. So if they buy Warners, they do buy all of that infrastructure to make programming that they have a bit of, but they certainly don't have at the scale that Warner Brothers do. So when it comes to build it or buy it, this does leapfrog what Netflix have been doing probably by about a decade. And if they've got the cash to make it happen, then why not? It also potentially gives them access to a consumer products business, which is something they haven't really had themselves before.

16:04Yeah, I was wondering this, and I might be wrong about this, but the theme park, so I was trying to look it up now, but the theme park that's happening in the UK, is that a Warner theme park or a Universal theme park? I think it's a Universal theme park. Because obviously there's a Harry Potter world that's at Universal in America. Yes, they don't have the rights to it because Warners have their own theme park. They have Harry Potter and Studio Tour here. So Netflix would own that. But also Netflix are doing their own experiential environments in the US and they're going into sort of shopping centres and sort of old cinema buildings and building kind of like...

16:40Netflix house. Yeah, Netflix environments. So maybe it gets them into the theme park business. It should be said that The Last Shadow of the Strange Things theatre production is one of the most successful theatre productions in recent years. So there's this weird thing where it's a bit like, Netflix are killing cinema, but they're also rescuing theatre, but they're also rescuing theme parks and experiential. And so they're doing a lot of stuff in video games. They now will own a video game studio. Are they going to do anything with that? Who knows? But I do think they're buying it for HBO. They're buying it for White Lotus.

17:13They're buying it for Game of Thrones. They're buying it for Harry Potter. They're buying it for DC. Those are the headlines. Mike, is it worried that these sort of vertically integrated companies don't put all of their energies into the output or is the output really the core of everything that they do? Well, I mean, you've hit the nail on the head there with the mention of theatre and the experiential. I mean, I work in events as well as film and ultimately for a long time now, you know, that's the big entertainment draw is, you know, what you can experience. I guess we blame Instagram at the very least.

17:47But you do wonder, you know, traditionally in these kind of M &A moments, a huge amount of people lose their jobs, you know, within management. And you never really know how much of the kind of enigmatic factor of a brand or a company, how much talent that understands the unsaid about brand is lost. And, you know, and how sort of generic things can become. But, you know, when you absorb a company the size of Warners, you know, where do you begin? How many years does that actually take? I mean, there's, you know, people at Netflix are already saying, don't worry, business as usual, you know, because obviously they're getting bombarded.

18:30And these things will play out for years, which certain octogenarians in power that, you know, might not like that idea. Well, some of this might stretch over into another administration. Yeah. Who knows? It almost certainly will. It almost certainly will. But whether or not the deal being allowed to progress or stretch over into another administration is going to be... There's at least a couple of years to play, isn't there? Just before we really know what's what. That also shims up in another election. And some other news, just broken as we are recording. Disney has invested a billion dollars into OpenAI.

19:05And as part of that deal, they have licensed over 200 characters from the Disney stable for use in Sora and ChatGPT. Mike suddenly it means you can get Mickey Mouse to do whatever you want is this is this good news for Disney I mean I mean those versions of Mickey that we're gonna kind of you know pop up anyway so I think it's it's being at the table right and trying to have some say in it and also it's given the volatility in the AI industry which I don't entirely think is well placed but the given the nervousness around a lot of the AI corporations. They've probably got some bang for the buck.

19:47For us, does it almost make Darth Vader open source? Suddenly these characters can be used by anybody. I haven't got the Sora app. I don't know if it's called Sora Feed or exactly what it is. Sort of TikTok clone. Yeah. Have you used it? I don't think it's available. Have you used it? I've seen it. I've seen the clips that have come out of there i'm not sure if it's available in the uk for those who don't know it is like a tiktok clone but everything in it is ai generated so it's almost like they've created a whole world walled garden of saying anything you see in this app is going to be ai generated that is an interesting idea the issue that we have right now is that there is so much money going into ai there is very little when it comes to how you make that um profitable how you can monetize this AI engine it's like everyone's using it and at the moment everyone's using it pretty much for free you know how can we make sure that we actually get some some money off the back of this and there's a conversation about advertising and conversation about subscriptions and etc etc and obviously licensing what's interesting about this deal is that I don't think that Disney have you don't see a lot of their content on YouTube or TikTok or Instagram a lot of that is user generated content and as a result anybody that's got their eyeballs on what is those three platforms which i think is getting almost all of younger audiences eyeballs they're not seeing darth they're not seeing mickey mouse they're not seeing those because they've done such a good job on copyright yeah right well exactly yeah it's like you know so you're not seeing any of that so as a result like you know mickey mouse there may be a whole generation that would have never seen a mickey mouse cartoon that's what we're getting close to now the interesting about this sora app is that if it does work and it is successful which it could well be it will then become the thing that's on everybody's phone.

21:33And then as a result of that, you're going to see a lot of Disney characters. Yes, they may be AI mini cartoons, but once we get over the novelty factor of like putting Darth Vader in a video with Liz Truss and, you know, I've seen lots of videos of the Queen in the House of Parliament, which are all ridiculous and hilarious at the same time. But it is all novelty at the moment. Once it all settles down into being content that people want to see ideas, new ideas, new stories, et cetera, it does kind of make sense that Disney are in that conversation this early on and they're placed i guess they're placing a bet that sora will be the app the next app that a lot of people download and then click on to kind of get their five seconds of entertainment and if mickey mouse or marvel or um uh or pixar are part of that entertainment pipeline then that's probably a good thing for for disney's um ip mike disney have stressed that it's it's sort of animated characters or things that they control so Are there any actors in previous Disney productions are not being able to be remixed for the moment?

22:33Well, I mean, you know, we only have to rewind two years to go back to the actors' strike, and I think they're probably very sensitised to that. But, I mean, you know, I agree. It's got to be a big advertising move. I mean, when you sit and talk about, as you said, the subscribers for all these platforms, and we're talking about Netflix and Warner Brothers, you know, it is amazing how quickly anything, like any form of kind of narrative work and the conversation you have where people just don't know about something that was sort of six or seven years ago, culturally stuff just falls off the radar at a speed that is quite unbelievable.

23:10You know, I should have mentioned names, I don't know, but I was reading this weekend there was a lot of press about Simon Cowell, right? Yes. And it was talking about the lack of awareness within, I'm not sure if it was Gen Z or the alpha generation. If you're under 25, do you know who he is? And you find that astonishing. It's sort of, you know, it's not about people not knowing about 9-11, which was a whole 24 years ago. It's, you know, the X factor. It's sort of, that's a few years ago, and, you know, it's not a lifetime ago for some people. It's really recent history, but it's, you know, off the radar.

23:45So, yeah, I think it's profile, right? It's a profile move. Someone was looking at the code in ChatGPT, and there's some kind of references to kind of ad hooks. they're clearly looking at advertising to appear in that app. I mean look it'd be bonkers if they weren't like you know of course they're looking at advertising they need to figure out how they can monetize this technology they've made and has had an obscene amount of investment put into it. Some people are saying it's unsustainable the amount of investments being put into it. So they need to do these deals and I think that the Sora thing is is the sleeping giant here because it is video and I think I think it's a lot easier to put advertising against video than it is to put advertising against text and chatbots.

24:23Like People don't want to, you know, WhatsApp have been trying this for a while. You don't want branded content in your prompt responses. Well, exactly. But you don't want it in your WhatsApp, but you're happy to have it in your Instagram. That's an interesting kind of dynamic that's going on there. And I think that they have recognized that it's a lot easier to put, like I said, advertising in video content than it is in text content. Because it doesn't feel as, you know, like people have, it's a chatbot. You're talking to it as opposed to just passively viewing it. But it's kind of inevitable in a way.

24:51you just want the whatsapp kind of branded content or ads in there i mean gmail i've got a gmail account for yeah all sorts of interesting stuff and um it amazes me how just how many kind of you know ads there are in there just because i don't use it enough to kind of track it and then you just go in and think wow this is this is really happening so it's not that long before whatsapp every third message is a plug for some flowers well uh speaking of adverts uh we'll see you in a sec and then we'll dive into Mike's film catalogue.

25:29Hello Media Club listeners, Patrick here from Podcast Discovery, the podcast marketing company, where this week we've been thinking about talent. So you've managed to secure a big name for your show. Great. But how do you make sure they're bought in? A podcast works so much better when everyone's pulling in the same direction. So how do you make sure your project is worth your talent's time and effort? We've got thoughts. Get in touch at podcastdiscovery.com. That's podcastdiscovery.com. Unlike Disney's new content on Sora, we're not AI generated. And I assume you're not too. So you probably need a studio to record your content.

26:06Why not use Podshop Studios? That's where we record the Media Club each week. They've recently opened four brand new studios here in Shoreditch, each one with its own distinct look and feel. We're back in their Instagram friendly lounge today. One of two identical sets you can hire. They're all professionally designed and fully equipped for broadcast quality video recording. Check out the whole range at podshoponline.co.uk and they're offering Media Club listeners 25 % off their first booking. Just use the code Media Club on their website. That's podshoponline.co.uk. Welcome back. Here's some stories we've been discussing in the Media Club this week.

26:44The Mirror's editor-in-chief, Caroline Watterson, has stepped down after two years in the job. The news won't come as a huge shock to staff, at least not the ones who are left after her newsroom was gutted earlier this year. Her successor comes from The Independent. Sony Music EVP Steve Ackerman, he's been running the podcast section, steps down at the end of this month. What started as Radio Indie Something Else has become a global player within Sony and memorably handing back many of its BBC commissions last year in pursuit of more of its owned channels. We'll keep an eye on what Steve does next.

27:17And Eurovision continues to implode with five countries pulling out of the 2026 competition, including Spain, Ireland and the Netherlands. This follows a fractious meeting at the European Broadcasting Union earlier this week, where a wider vote on Israel's participation was denied in favour of a secret ballot of members. Links to all of those stories are available on our sub stack. You can sign up for free at themediaclub.com and you also get our Monday email briefed reviewing all of the things talked about on the other media podcasts. Just head to themediaclub.com to sign up for free. My friends are still with me.

27:54Are you going to watch Eurovision? That's a loaded question. It's straight in there. Am I going to watch Eurovision? Eurovision is an absolute juggernaut. There's a lot of kind of sneering about Eurovision. It's very camp and it's all a bit silly and this and the other. If you spend any time watching Eurovision, the production values of that show are off the charts, rivaled, I think, only by the Olympics. They are exceptional and the camera work in it and the lighting work in it and the way that show is put together is an absolute masterclass in television. and it really really saddens me that they have managed to get themselves in this political quagmire by trying to expand it further and further and further regardless of what your views are of of the you know geopolitical part of the world and you know some of the awful things that are happening around the world right now they've kind of done this weird thing where they've expanded it to australia and they've expanded they've kind of taken the euro out of it and it's just a big music show spectacle which is fine that you want to do that but they're also trying to have their cake and eat it by going well it's not a political thing really and it It is.

28:52It's a European voting, you know, it's probably the thing that more people vote in the UK about European politics than anything else. So we are in this kind of really strange world where they're trying to say that it's, you know, they're trying to say it's not political, it's just about joy. But they know that, like, by letting people be flag bearers for things, as a result, people are going to criticise certain entries. And ever has been dust. You know, I don't think that people vote on that show based on what they think is the best song. What? What? Do you know what I mean? It's like it's it is we there is a yeah, it's a it's a it's a political show as much as it is a music show.

29:29And I, you know, and I am genuinely torn. I think that there are really good legitimate reasons why countries like Spain have pulled out. What I think it's really sad that the EBU haven't given them the opportunity to have a conversation about what the best way through this is. And and now we're in a place where people have, like me, kind of feel like they've got a bit of guilt about watching something that previously I have got a lot of joy out of. because I think it is an incredible production spectacle. And now it's, you know, you can't watch it in a vacuum. I think there's going to be more to that story as well, probably over the next few months too.

30:03Mike, let's talk about your new doc for Sky, Nick Cave's Veiled World. One of many music docs, I guess, you've made over the years. But that's not all I do. Yeah, yeah, sure. It's strange how you get known for kind of one thing in certain kind of moments, but yeah. I mean, there's some interesting names in there. Florence Welsh to the Archbishop of Canterbury what was the right mix to kind of I guess please fans and be open to other people? I think you've got to go back a step with this film Nick participates and sort of authorises very very few documentaries he makes his own and stars his own and it's very much within the creative circle this documentary happened very quickly and was a tie-in to Killing of Bunny Monroe.

30:55So it's a drama adaptation of his book that's on Sky Now TV. So, you know, and approaching these films, as you say, I've made a few of these music documentaries. And on one hand, there's a kind of an instinct for a lot of people to do biography. And on the other, you know, it's this constant pull to dissect the creative process. And both of those things come with difficulties. You know, I work in new order. and the amount of times people talk about, oh, we want to pitch a documentary about the history of New Order and you're meant to kind of do 50 years in, you know, 90 minutes or whatever. It's impossible.

31:27You can get there, you know, with 10 series of a podcast. And so inevitably Sky Arts, you know, it's fantastic that Sky Arts exists and has survived and is free to air and all of that. But, you know, their approach to everything is kind of creative process first, which brings about a whole load of, you know, challenges in its own right because creative process is, you know, it's like trying to bottle lightning, right? So with Nick Cave, a complicated artist, with all these different phases in his life, you know, we had to come up with quite a clever device to take apart that process. And was that to cover him, who is a complex artist himself, or to sell to him, this is going to be an interesting thing?

32:14Possibly a little bit of both, but I wouldn't have made the film without having a concept for it in the first place, because, hey man, I do concepts. So to go back to your original question, the cast was really necessary, because if you haven't seen the film, it's kind of configured around the fact that Nick is a very literary writer, and he doesn't just write kind of books and the red-hand files and all this stuff, but his lyrics, everything's written on a typewriter. He's very, very literary-based. and you know we when we're looking at what he did um we just found that there was these repeating archetypes which are quite a universal thing but no one had really looked at kind of cavian archetypes and um so we broke down about five archetypes but then you know you've got to find a cast that speaks to that and we didn't want anybody who um was a commentator so it was everybody was a kind of friend or a collaborator and then we end up with this extraordinary cast.

33:09So as you said, Florence and Dr. Rowan Williams being sort of two of the more extremes, but also Flea from the Red Hot Chili Peppers and Colin from Radiohead and some amazing minds like Irving Walsh and there was 17 or 18. We couldn't actually stop in the end. It was often the case that when you start these things, sometimes you end up with a bit of a kind of snowball effect. I've never ever made a film where I felt that the kind of IQ and the intellect and And the cosmic, I'm going to use the word cosmic, because that's a good Nick K word, the cosmic kind of quotient was quite so high as it is in this film.

33:47And it was extraordinary. We made it in 10 weeks, which is no mean feat anyway. But a film with that level of insight and existentialist stuff, it's kind of quite mind-blowing. Have you got a review from the man himself? Yes. I mean, it's interesting because it was, you know, it was, it's always difficult to find the right word to say it was authorised because that could be kind of slightly heavy handed. It wasn't a certain, a foregone conclusion that he'd kind of allow the documentary to happen. You know, there was a kind of process of kind of going, well, who's this Mike Christie guy? And a process of looking at sort of, you know, other work.

34:29But then, of course, as you said, there was also figuring out the idea. and then his involvement was sort of very very light touch beyond that he wasn't involved in the production per se but he what he did obviously help um us get the contributors we wanted and also suggested a few others um the former archbishop of canterbury was the last one through the door and that was very much kind of um a suggestion that's quite a strong christian faith now Yeah, I mean, and I think that journey, you know, it's not unusual for people who have talked about kind of addiction to end up in a kind of religious place, especially if there's a kind of 12-step program involved.

35:11So it's a familiar, familiar journey. But it's not a familiar story. It's quite a unique story. It demanded kind of quite a unique film. And yeah, to answer your question, I think both Nick and Susie, his wife and the management, you know, they didn't see any cut until they saw the final cut. And we got quite an unexpectedly powerful response to it. Good. Because access docs are always interesting. And this isn't really that because you're speaking sort of about him. But you often... Presence through absence is the way we... Okay. like you know but you often see things like the david beckham documentary where their involvement is so strong there's nothing in that that they that they wouldn't like but it guarantees participation what's your take on whether you know the strength of those those pieces you get suddenly you get these people who maybe you wouldn't get normally but is there an an unsaid part that it's not really covered i think that's probably more the case in the past I mean, you know, we worked together a bit when Fraz was at Channel 4.

36:15And I think we all used to see that anxiety, especially from any broadcast public service remit, about having the subject of documentary involved in it in any way. To give Nick his credit, that's exactly what he avoided, you know. But having said all that, I think these days people do understand that, you know, most advisors, I think, celebrity advisors or whatever, but understand that the viewing public knows what hagiography is, and you've got to be careful to avoid it. I've actually, I mean it's kind of coincidence of timing, but finished my next music film in the last week, and that is with quite a major name.

36:55And it could have been, there could have been a moment where there was, there were discussions about the fact that in that film there was new sides to kind of a character that we hadn't really seen before, but it was equally sort of very honest. There was long discussions about whether it should or shouldn't be in, and fortunately that fell the right way, and those moments are in, and the film's better for it. But we've got very discerning kind of viewership these days. The audience knows. You can't cheat them. No. You know it's about authenticity. can we talk about space jump oh yes uh so uh felis uh felix baum gardener got to say it right uh speaking 10 years after um falling from the edge of space yeah back to earth in your film you obviously revisit that moment yeah what was that like to kind of look back on what amazed me when we looked back on it was that no one had really forensically looked at the jump itself and so obviously it's an extraordinary moment and he was I mean he as you know passed way quite recently quite tragically and but it was an extraordinary kind of thing because no one had really broken down what happened there was a spectacle was such that you you and if we're doing by Red Bull obviously you'd think more about the the output than the input that's a really interesting point like you just made map is actually the film that Mike and I I I was very, very lucky to own Mike many, many moons ago.

38:34And we looked at exactly that, which was the inputs that go into doing some of the things that these athletes do. And I do think it's part of the most fascinating part of, you know, that's why you want to watch these docs. You know, you want to watch these biopics and you want to watch these people who do amazing things and you've heard of them. You want to know how they got there. And that's why Mike's films are really exceptional. Thank you. That project in particular cost, I mean, it's an insane amount of money. I mean, obviously it was 10 years ago, but it was, I can't remember the exact number, but it was tens and tens of millions.

39:01And Felix was not shy of making sure he got a very equitable fee for sort of, you know, what he did. And I think it was a strange thing to revisit. And the great thing, you know, I mean, I enjoyed the fact that, you know, he stood on, when he stepped out of the balloon capsule, in real time he sort of stood on that ledge for something like 18 seconds or 20 seconds. But, you know, in the re-cut of it, and because of the amount of thinking and emotion that was going on from all these different people speaking about it, I think it lasted four and a half minutes. And it's the longest kind of sort of one foot off a step in the history of steps.

39:42That's great. Obviously, Red Bull, they spent money. They got a lot of the fame from that. I mean brands involvement in in media brands involvement in culture I mean some ways that they underpin quite a lot of interesting activity nowadays don't they yeah I mean it's changed um for us you know and I worked together on on a Danny McCaskill documentary and I worked with Danny quite a bit we made a film called Imaginate that had a hundred million views I think it was 2011 or 2012 when we made it but it's that you don't really see that anymore and and and those what always I always loved about those sorts of projects and you know they've carried on quite a while I engaged with them because I saw athletes from the off the jump London documentary that you mentioned earlier from the off I saw athletes as artists I saw what they did as kind of creative work creative acts and I think one of the things that Red Bull worked out quite early on and enabled was allowing some of these athletes to create these incredible kind of visions that with the sort of thing that they'd kind of spitball on over a beer and kind of go, wouldn't it be great if we could build an ice palace and, you know, roller skate all over it or, you know, whatever.

41:00I've sort of been there. And, you know, Red Bull kind of go, okay, what will that take? You know, I made a film called Human Pinball where, you know, we ended up building this. I mean, it weighed 25 tons. We built this Human Pinball set. There were only three places in London big enough to, you know, build it in. And that was a, you know, I want to be a ball in a pinball machine. you know, this free runner. And so we built this 25-meter, 45-degree angle pinball set, you know. It's kind of, it's quite a lot of faith that goes into enabling those ideas. And I guess it, you know, Red Bull, there's obviously a kind of commercial value.

41:36There's a return on investment. It used to be that the logos were very small. And, you know, that's obviously changed. People need branding wherever they can. But there was genuinely, at the outset of this, I think there was genuinely some kind of, you know, culture building and some kind of world building and a lot of you know I've worked a lot with a lot of different extreme and action sports they're really really niche not least parkour which literally no one had heard of you know you're quite often bringing something to the world that kind of changes a lot of people's lives you know it's it's an interesting set of phenomenas to watch grow out of an energy drink company or whatever for us you think red bull is still an outlier or other brands taking on their mantle and doing good content work.

42:19Sorry, I just can't hear the word parkour without thinking about that Office episode where Steve Corral is jumping up. Which is now meme-ified everywhere. That is the truth. It starts with a thing over here that's like an underground trend, gets popularised by and invested in by a brand like Red Bull and then becomes part of literally popular culture. Jump London was before Red Bull Corp. Exactly. Exactly, and I think that it always makes me laugh. It's French and Saunders. I don't know if you've ever seen it. It's the highlight of my career. It doesn't matter how many awards you're in, it doesn't matter how many films you make, how many whatever, French and Saunders spoofed Jump London with Alan Yentob.

42:59I don't think I've seen that. I'm going to look that up. I think I might actually put it on my website because they licensed clips from Jump London to include it in it, but it's brilliantly observed and absolutely career high. We'll get Matt to put a link to the YouTube in the show next. But in answer to your question, I think that there is a difference with a company like Red Bull. There are companies that understand that you can invest in culture and then you can reap the rewards of being part of that. And I think Red Bull have always been very, very savvy about that, whether they continue to be savvy.

43:27And they've kind of hit a new headache, which is the high sugar, high fat, high salt laws that have meant that, like, I think that it's going to be a bit more problematic for them moving forward. but I think that the brands that want to invest in culture and not just want to stick their brand on top of it of something that already exists are always going to be the ones that win If you watch the Coca-Cola Christmas is Coming advert Santa drinks Coke Zero now so he can be on television Oh is that true? But that's also the same with Formula One and all the other sports where it's all alcohol free Yeah, it's all that.

44:05It's the same with the sugar stuff. Okay, just enough time for the Audio Network Media Quiz.

44:14I'm going to be rubbish at this. Three media stories connected by one theme and then shoehorned into a format of an existing media property. This week, it's Transfer Window. A few execs are changing jobs as the industry looks to 2026, with many presumably spending their gardening leaves somewhere tropical this Christmas. So let's round them all up in the style of a Sky Sports Transfer Deadline Day coverage episode. You just guess who's going where from my hyperbolic commentary. And once again, Alex at Audio Network has taken that brutally weak brief from producer Matt and created a playlist of music to score today's game.

44:56It's a best of three, so buzz in with your names if you know this story. So Faraz, you will say. Faraz. And Mike, you will say. Faraz. Let's play Transfer Window. So just imagine there's like a large countdown graphic behind me. Oh, what's this? Big news coming out of Isleworth. Channel 4 aren't commenting, but the papers are all saying it's a done deal. Oh, Faraz. This. Have I interrupted your Sky Sports commentary? I feel awful. This is about the new Channel 4 CEO that Financial Times broke the story of, Priya Dogra, who has come from Sky Media, which is their advertising part of Sky. She will be taking up the new position at Horsefair Road as new Channel 4 CEO, I believe early next year.

45:43And she has a background at Warner Bros. Discovery. She did, in Europe. That was kind of a bit of everything, so content as well as business. You pitched off to Channel 4. Have you heard of her before? you know what I think a lot of people I hadn't heard her name in the running for this obviously I don't work in advertising so I wasn't aware of her name more generally but from everything that I've heard it's been I mean it's been 24 hours while you sit here that the news was broken but I've heard university positive things I think is a good choice and I think that if you look at it as an appointment it makes a lot of sense and I must say that like I I think it's worth saying a word about Jonathan Allen who I think has been there for a very long time and has done an incredibly good job at channel four so he's was he the ceo he was a chief commercial officer he's been there for oh my god about 15 years now i think um and uh and he's the current interim ceo um and i believe that he said um at the rts cambridge festival that he had put his hat his name his hat in the ring is that right name and a hat put the hat in the ring to uh to be considered for the ceo job and and i think a A lot of people felt like he would have been a really good appointment.

46:53And so it'll be interesting to see what his next move are. I believe that there are other senior jobs, other broadcasters that are available at the moment. So it'd be interesting to know where he ends up. What difference do you think it'll make? To Channel 4? Well, there are questions. So there are a few questions. One is Channel 4 and Alex Mahon, who was a previous CEO. One of her, she had two big challenges. One was making Channel 4 more regional. And then the second was, well, three really. The second is what they called Future 4, I think it was, or Fast Forward or something like that, which was kind of making sure that Channel 4 is a streaming and digital public service broadcaster, which they've made a lot of inroads into.

47:30And the third was obviously the craziness of whether or not it was going to be privatised or if Nadine Doris was going to do something to it, which they kind of weathered through. I think the first question is about the regionalisation of Channel 4. Are they going to move out of London? Is that going to continue now? or is there going to be a new strategy from that perspective? I don't feel like this government is as hostile to Channel 4 and hopefully won't be as tricky, shall we say. She's got some M &A experience, so studios, what they do with studios, that's got to be on her agenda, right, Mike?

48:04Yeah, I mean, I just, you know, I think Channel 4 for me was a really substantial part of my early career. As it was for a lot of people. Yeah, really. But less so now. Less so now. I mean, yeah, absolutely, the last decade or so for me and just really want to see them kind of also just start cutting through with some more creative and experimental and edgy work. Well, I'm going to have to stop you there because we've got some other breaking news. Or should that be moves? Out go the Malones, the Siddiquis, make way for Culkin, Hartnett and Egerton. Mike. Mike, yes. This is Gogglebox going to Hollywood.

48:41Yeah, so Gogglebox have lined up Kieran Culkin, Josh Hartnett and Tamsin Egerton for a Hollywood-themed edition. That's not a bad booking. No, it's pretty good. I think it's partly for Stand Up to Cancer special episodes. Is it a Christmas special? No, I think it's just for Stand Up to Cancer. Because I'd really love to see Kieran Culkin watching Home Alone at Christmas on the Gotham Box sofa. That's what we all want to see, right? It'll be interesting. Maybe they'll have it there. Okay, one more to go. It's been a year in the making. We all knew McVeigh was on the way out, but in a Pact arena, they've announced his replacement.

49:20Pact. Farras, so this is about Nigel Warner taking up the new position as the head of Pact from the irrepressible. Is irrepressible a nice word? Yes. I don't know if irrepressible is a nice word. My vocab. I think it is. The irrepressible John McVeigh. They're big shoes to fill. And actually, going back to our previous story, I think the first thing that's going to land in his intray is going to be in-house production at Channel 4. that is a big thing that Pact are making a lot of noises about that may have a really significant impact on the indie market so I imagine that Priya and Nigel are already looking at each other's calendars to make sure they can get a lovely Soho luncheon Do we know much about him?

49:58So I believe he's worked at the DCMS and he's also been at the Motion Picture Association, the MPA so he's got quite a lot of skin in this game and he knows what he's talking about and I think it feels like a really good replacement for John but it's you know, Pact have got a lot in there like I said, they've got a lot to deal with right now and the indie sector is struggling and Channel 4, BBC ITV need to be held to account about how they work with indies moving forward because I think a lot of them are feeling very nervous right now Well congratulations Fraz you won the quiz as a special prize you can find that out of it uh you can find a new ceo for the for the global media club uh business and you can do that for the next isn't that your job uh no i'm i'm just a talent just a talent darling um my thanks to fraz and mike and thanks to alex at audio network as well for supplying today's music audio network can do that for you as well just head to audionetwork.com and there's a link in the show notes too uh so both where can people first of all see your uh new documentary oh well in the UK it's on Sky Go and also on Now TV and that's where they can also pick up the drama series as well from Sky as well and Fraz how can people keep up with your work you can follow us on all the socials at gold underscore wallah I'm on LinkedIn and I've been kind of posting various rantings and ramblings over there so do check me out over there otherwise just kind of see me roaming the streets trying to find some work I don't think I follow you yet Well there you go, that's why Mike's got one of works He's not spending wasting his time looking at my nonsense Thank you both Thank you for watching and listening My name is Matt Teagan, the producer is Matt Hill It was a Rethink Audio production with visual support from Podcast Discovery And I'll see you next week

52:01So retrospectors, what historical events are we ticking off on this week's run of Today in History? On Monday, the anniversary of the treason scandal that divided France. On Tuesday, we explain how America fell in love with ice rinks. On Wednesday, they didn't come from Harlem and they didn't travel the world, but the Harlem Globetrotters still broke the mould. On Thursday, Britain's first black Member of Parliament, who was surprisingly pro-slavery. And on Friday, long before the national mourning for Princess Diana, the nation stopped for Lord Nelson's funeral. That's Today in History with The Retrospectives.

52:32Ten minutes each weekday, wherever you get your podcasts. podcasts.