Richard Bacon: Formats Geek

0:00If you're heading to the podcast show towards the end of May, be sure to say hello. The Media Club will be hosting our very own session. Yes, we've assembled a crack team of pundits to answer the question, what podcasters can learn from print's pivot to video? Join us on Thursday, May 21st, and I'll see you there. Hello, welcome to the Media Club. I'm Matt Deegan. In the club today, the world's free press ranked. Allison Hoffman from Politico talks to me about the obstacles of getting a story out there. Also on the show, broadcaster and format geek Richard Bacon on his new podcast, Why Are You More Successful Than Me?

0:35A question, of course, we'll be asking. All that plus a celebrated sports exec bids farewell to Channel 4. And in the Audio Network Media Quiz, we reveal some plot twists. Come on in. Hello, both. Hello. Hello, Matt. Lovely to have you both here. Richard Bacon obviously broadcast the founder of Yes Yes Media but who are we going to add to the club this week? A songwriter called Sarvankatecha and he's one of the most successful songwriters in the world he's a really nice man and the reason I do it this week is because he's got the biggest song in the world by Miles and not only do I have a personal connection to him he's a friend of mine he's an investor in Yes Yes Media but we also write music formats together and we've got a new big talent format that should be on TV in America next year.

1:24So we're close anyway. How important is it to have a musician involved in that sort of thing? It's so wonderful because it's, you know, with an idea like that, the seed of the idea started with me. And then he was the first person I called and I went, do you think this works? When he said yes, I'm like, well, if you think it works, I think it works. And then we built it together. And it's been a really good process. We're now writing another one. But he's written 27 Ariana Grande songs. He wrote songs like Can't Feel My Face for the weekend, One Direction's early big hits like What Makes You Beautiful.

1:55He sold over half a billion records. But in 2012, he and Max Martin wrote a song for Justin Bieber called Beauty and a Beat. It didn't do that much business at the line comparably. Justin sings it at Coachella, and it's just so big. It's the number one song in the world, but the number two is Miles Behind. And all these Michael Jackson songs are out again because they're miles behind. And at the beginning of last year, for the first time he set up his own record label and the first thing he signed was the K-pop Demon Hunter soundtrack but the film hadn't come out and so last week he had the number one song in the world as a writer and the number eight song in the world, Golden, as a label so Sarvan Kotecha I'm adding to the club this week Well he can definitely join and can maybe do the disco as well that'd be really good Also making her debut, Alison Hoffman executive editor at Politico in the UK You've just had London Playbook name the most popular newsletter amongst MPs.

2:52And there's quite a lot of people going for that title. Yep. But not all of them stay up overnight to write the newsletter every day. And it is dense. There is a lot in there every day. There is a lot in there. There are gifts for everyone who makes it all the way through. Good. And who would you like to add as your plus? I will bring in the producers of SNL UK. James Longman. They just got renewed today for their second series. I think they're doing a very hard thing and they're doing it really well. The New York Times has been recapping the U.S. SNL for years. And I saw that now they've added in SNL UK to the recap every week.

3:29So that's going transatlantic already, which is great. But they are doing just a great job of getting right in there. They had a brilliant sketch last week as the king was flying back on the plane. The thing they do need to do, and definitely they know this from watching SNL, US, and then also all the work at the Corden show, but they got to get the politicians to come in because that is the thing that makes it magic. Like when the real guys come in and play themselves. Sometimes. Like I think when Sarah Palin turned up with Tina Fey, it was a bit like, oh, it was kind of like the fact that you were laughing at her.

4:04I didn't like it as much as she was in on it, but sometimes obviously it works really well. Like I hated it when Trump hosted SNL. you know a lot of people hit it but it was a moment you do get a lovely video of him dancing with some chickens which can be repeated i do think james longman has done a terrific job it's it's an investment in new talent it's it's what we you know people talk about a big swing it's such a boring phrase so bored of commission saying i'll take a big swing but that it actually is one and they landed it uh and expensive i mean they they put their money where their mouth is yeah uh and they didn't have to extend it didn't have to actually renew it they could have waited on this, but Sky can clearly see that it's something that's going to work for them.

4:42Well, and it's an investment, again. You have to let that run a little bit to really find its feet, and I think they're in a good place now, but I think it will get better just in time. It's a likeable cast as well, isn't it? They're very likeable. Also, I think they're partly blank slates, which I think really helped them, because obviously they got a bit of a slagging off because it's new and it's comedy, but harder to do, harder for it to stick when there's a lot of new talent there. It's also George Foreaker's impression of Keir Salma's actually you know he's the nasal i'm out of my death like me it was actually really really good oh wow someone's landed an impression of kia starver i also saw it in america you talk about the new york times there it's on peacock and so americans are sort of discovering it as well which at the same time and also demanding that vorek could come over and play mike johnson so you could have like a dual yeah a dual season that'd be good that'd be good uh okay uh in just a moment uh what billionaires got against journalism see you in a second Taking care of your eyes shouldn't be a hassle.

5:40That's why Warby Parker is a one-stop shop for all your vision needs. Our prescription glasses and sunglasses are expertly crafted and unexpectedly affordable. Stop by a nearby store or use our app to virtually try on frames and get personalized recommendations. Did we mention we offer eye exams and take vision insurance too? For everything you need to see, head to your nearest Warby Parker store or visit WarbyParker.com today. That's WarbyParker.com. Do you keep hearing podcast ads like this one, for example, but always wonder how you actually get involved with them for your own brand or organization?

6:15Well, it's easier than you think. We're Acast, and we give you the platform to do it all yourself. Browse thousands of popular podcasts, choose the shows that match your perfect audience, set your budget, and launch. And if you want a hand, our podcast specialists are there to help you launch with confidence. This is podcast advertising without barriers. Get started at acast.com slash advertise.

6:49Welcome back to the Media Club. Powerful people are suing media outlets before stories are even published. Alison, the editor-in-chief at the Wall Street Journal, was in town this week. What did she have to say? We've been seeing this going on for a decade plus, right? I mean, this goes back to in the US, we saw Gawker Media be bankrupted. A lawyer called Charles Harder, who was representing Hulk Hogan, the wrestler, but it was actually backed by Peter Thiel, managed to take out Gawker Media completely. He subsequently went on to represent the Trumps and many others. And it's become a real habit, definitely across the Atlantic to come in ahead of time, which is so counter to what law and precedent would be.

7:30But it's happening more and more often. So try and explain what a slap is if people don't really know. Yeah. I mean, the idea is that you get in there and somebody sends a right of reply or somebody, you know, goes and does the reporting. And before they have the chance to publish that, they say, if you go ahead and publish at all, we're going to get ahead of it and stop you from getting this out there. Obviously, it's growing. It's pretty successful. There's a law for certain law firms do it for a lot of people. when you're a publisher and you get those, does it chill or do you just send it to the lawyers and not worry about it?

8:05We publish without fear of favour. We are confident and we stand by our reporting. But obviously, again, the canonical example is what happened with Gawker Media. Nobody wants to be the cause of getting their publisher and their company into court for sure. But I think, you know, even lucky we have not, on my watch at least, run into that. And I hope we never do, but it's part of a bigger issue, right? You've got a whole universe of companies forcing people into arbitration of NDAs. There's a whole parallel universe of pressure that comes outside of what people, I think, walking around in the world imagine the legal system is.

8:45And it is getting harder and harder to distinguish how that impacts what goes on and what you see and what you understand and what you're allowed to read. It is strategic. Of course. It is there to stop journalists writing about something, to not get involved at all. We see it with the American government now, with Trump and the administration. A lot of their work is to do a similar thing. They can obviously use the bully pulpit. They don't necessarily need to send the legal letters. Well, and also Trump has the ability to appoint judges, right? So a lot of this comes down to judges being willing to either let suits go forward or stop them in their tracks.

9:20and certainly Trump has made plenty of noise about threatening CNN, threatening the New York Times. There have been multiple lawsuits and the New York Times has been singularly strong about saying, sure, come at us, that's fine. The other end of things is the threats that you've seen against CBS and the broadcasters where it's not about making legal threats, it's about threatening to pull the broadcasting license. And that gets you into a whole other territory because it really does get away from what the law is and gets into who has the power to take people off the air in that case. Rich, it's hard to be brave when you're faced with some of these things.

9:55Yeah, it's Emma Tucker, isn't it? Who's the editor in chief of the Wall Street Journal, who first of all seems really impressive. She I used to know a lot about newspapers. When I was a teenager, my dream was to be a newspaper editor. And I used to read books like Stick It Up You Punter. And I always used to be able to name newspaper editors and newspapers have less significance in the world. And I now even as a geek, she's the only one. I have no idea who edits the Sun, the Mail, Telegraph, no idea. But I know who she is and she seems to be one of the few kind of superstar editors at the moment in the world, I think.

10:26Trump's obviously doing it from a couple of directions. One, he fires off lawsuits, which he's done his whole career. And then the other angle is to only give licences or approve sales of media organisations to people like the Edisons that like him and will do what he wants. But it does work. That nonsense where Trump is trying to sue the BBC I'm always quite proud when I see Have I Got News For You, which, of course, I only see as clips on my phone. But they're doing jokes about Trump. Because the problem you've got is the threat of a lawsuit is the point, I think. I don't think anyone really thinks Trump's going to sue the BBC for$40 billion.

11:02I can't remember. But it was mad. He has. I mean, he has filed that suit. He's filed the suit. I don't think that'd pay him out. But it is the fear. So, therefore, you will say fewer mean things about me. So when I see them really going for him still on things I haven't gotten into you, I think, thank God it hasn't worked. But you make your own content. Yeah. Do you want to steer away from certain things? So after we get into that, it just becomes more difficult. Well, I like I mean, I've always enjoyed controversy and I've been caught up in quite a lot of it. But my main focus really is trying to come up with entertainment formats.

11:36And so they never they don't go near that. I worked for quite a long time, effectively news and current affairs. I was on Radio 5 Live and I still have a deep interest in news and current affairs. But it can be quite distracting. If your job is to try and come up with something funny or entertaining, it's quite distracting to spend all day angry about something. So I try as far as I can to steer away from news and current affairs at the moment. It's not just the big boys, close to home, Mill Media. That's the group behind local subscription titles like the Mill in Manchester and the Birmingham Dispatch.

12:07They received a legal threat from a government special advisor. about some signatures. Did you see this? Yeah, it was Shabana Mahmood and signatures on ballots she'd cast. But I did notice that in the reporting of that story, the threats came fast and furious. And then the newspaper did exactly what they should do, which is say, we have the receipts, here they are. And suddenly the advisor melted away. So it's one of these strategies that only works if you are going to actually drive it through. And if you are Trump and you either have the power or you are a lawyer who has Peter Thiel behind you, then sure, you might actually be able to drive it all the way to the end.

12:46But if you are a spad who maybe got out over their skis, then you see it disappear. What was that election corruption story then? What was that? She was signing... It was about casting ballots. The ballots had been improperly cast. Oh, wow. And had they? Well. Well, you don't want to get to know what it is. Well, the industry is lobbying for kind of anti-slap provisions in the upcoming King's speech. The Economic Crime Act already contains some protections. The argument is that it doesn't go far enough. Is there effective protection that you could bring in against these sorts of things? I mean, again, I think, listen, I come from the US context where the First Amendment is king, and yet even still, we've seen so much erosion, both from journalists and owners who are too interested in staying out of court and just will let things go, from people who don't trust their own reporting and say, well, we would rather just not.

13:44Let's just skip it. Let's make it easy. I mean, I think what Emma Tucker did was exactly right. Stand up and make a cause of it and make sure that people in our audiences, in our public, know how hard we work and how hard it is every single day to get the actual news out. So that to me is the first thing. And, you know, as far as whether they actually formalize this and put legislation forward, like yes to all of it and strengthen all the protections because we all know what is coming out there in terms of AI and all of the disinformation and everything else like make it easier for people who have news to publish to publish things that is accurate that are accurate and that they reported.

14:24While staying with news the BBC's cuts have been trailed up to 2 ,000 jobs at 600 million pounds of savings over three years but this week emerged that the news division will face a 15 % cost reduction, steeper than the sort of average 10 % that we were looking at probably across the corporation. Alison, the news division accounts around a quarter of the BBC's headcount. A 15 % cut could have quite a drastic effect on the journalism it produces, the volume of it, perhaps. The volume, the quality, the ability to innovate, all of it. I think the thing that jumped out at me is the news division is currently still without a head.

15:01And you've got a new DG coming in who has a tall task, but to go after the news division, which has already been sliced and diced, is really a lot. And, you know, at a certain point, the BBC has the same problems that any legacy broadcaster has. They need to keep things on the air and also try to pivot to digital, which is where the audiences are, but the costs are not covered the same way. But they also have this other responsibility, which is as a national broadcaster. So at a certain point, you know, Asking the question of what is a national broadcaster in this media environment is the thing that has to be done because it's too many different things that have to be satisfied.

15:40And continuing to cut just guarantees that it becomes less and less relevant. And then you ask why. Richard, you said earlier you were at Five Live for quite a long time in the news division. Effectively. Some of the people who argue against the BBC would say there's too many people, spends all this money. Maybe it's time to rethink what they should do. maybe they do do too much, maybe 15 % actually allows you to think about it. The reality is these things are nuanced and it's very difficult to know if it's right or wrong because if you were there and you were looking at where cuts can be made and where cuts, there are places that can't be cut or have been cut to the bone already.

16:16There's 21 ,500 people at the BBC roughly, there's 5 ,500 in News and Current Affairs. I have no idea if that's too many or not, how would I know? But I do know that BBC News is not just important, I mean, it's the number one or number two news source in America, and we're good at it. And you only have to look at anything from GB News to Fox News to understand what it represents and how important it is. Deborah Turness is the person who was the head of news who you're referring to. I thought she was excellent. She'd run NBC News before. I thought they were lucky to have her. You know, sometimes people leave a job and they're not quite sure why.

16:50They can't quite remember something, something about something. It didn't seem like a big enough reason. So I would worry about cutting BBC News because it's very, very important. on the other hand I mean I've been at radio stations before where they've literally reduced the staff by half and it all stayed on air and all sounded the same sometimes you remove a Jenga piece and it doesn't collapse so I don't know if that's right I do know that 15 % is a bit higher than the rest of the BBC but without really knowing why they've made that decision I think it's hard to criticise I think we were both in Leicester Square at that same time you're not talking about by the way I will say this, though.

17:29What does make me anxious and sad, having spent a lot of my career at the BBC, is I have never, ever known a time when they're not facing cuts, when they're not worried about cuts, when people are not looking over their shoulders, worrying about their jobs, and worrying about their future. And that in itself will impact the quality of the work, and it certainly impacts happiness. I just don't... They've never... They could just do with a damn period where they're not worrying about cuts. Alison, when you think about your title, you're obviously part of quite a large global operation. Sometimes, you know, a weaker BBC isn't necessarily bad news for business.

18:07I mean, I think I would counter that and say it is because there are very few organizations that have the reach of the BBC. And to be honest, we all depend on that because I have a global news organization, but we do a very particular thing. we feed a very particular audience. And look at the Hantavirus trip today, right? Like that is something that is very expensive to fly out there and get video of that. And we all depend on the Associated Press, the BBC, other major news organizations that are doing that. We had, I used to work at CNN. We had a desk that called elections, right? Very few networks run that now.

18:47And what is happening is the number of places that do that is shrinking. And, you know, if you wind up in a situation, CNN has its own election calling desk, but more and more places are relying on the Associated Press. I bring it up because one screw up means that the whole thing then gets called the wrong way and people don't trust it. And so similarly, if you have fewer and fewer of these global organizations that can actually do the magical thing of getting the footage in from anywhere in a way that people can rely on, it just degrades everything else. So, you know, we all, the rest of the news infrastructure really depends on it.

19:21I'd put Ted Turner in the club this week if I could. Okay, yes. So I can't. In the celestial media club. In memorial. He'd just seemed like a giant, didn't he? I mean, he'd just achieved so much. There's some excellent books on the history of CNN. I'd love to read one. I was reading that last night, reading about him. I thought, I need to read a book about Ted Turner. Did you meet him? I didn't meet him in person. He was quite ill for the last few years of his life, but he still loomed over everything and I think they had a lot of fun. Well, he invented 24-hour rolling news. Yeah, without going too much off topic, he met someone who was saying, we've got this satellite.

19:57We don't know what to do with it, but there's some space on it. And he was doing some local television. He was like, well, I could put my channel into other places. Then cable companies would basically pick up and rebroadcast what was a regional TV network. And this dude from AT &T had been around everybody trying to sell off this little bit of space on the satellite. and he was sort of the only person that sort of recognized this vision and that became his channels and then eventually CNN. So a real vision. I'm trying to remember, I did listen to a podcast about the first few days of CNN. As with all these places, there was a news story, there was a breaking news story that just changed everything.

20:33Gosh, there's always something. They're about to die and something happens and they make their name and then they're there forever. Well, truth tellers, yesterday I was there in the morning and Christian Amonpour was there. and who's a big fan of Ted Turner. And, you know, she came of age in the Iraq, the first Iraq war, kind of making of the network. Right, just before the break, another departure at Channel 4. This time it's Pete Andrews, head of sport for the past seven years, who's leaving to become managing director of sport at Whisper. That's the production company. The audience actually makes quite a lot of Channel 4 sports outputs.

21:11Richard, so Pete, I don't know if you know him, I've come across him. He landed Emma Raducanu's US Open win, England Cricket's World Cup victory, Hamilton, Verstappen, Abu Dhabi F1 fight finale, poached the boat race from the BBC. I think Channel 4 even won Sports Network of the Year and they're not a sports network. I mean, it's amazing. Well, that is impressive. I mean, that is if he led them to win that because I don't associate Channel 4 with sport, apart from Paralympics. I'm not really aware that... I actually don't follow sport. So I'm certainly not going to follow sport on Channel 4 if you don't follow sport.

21:45So I'm not overly familiar with his work. But I guess it is fair if you've taken a non-sports network to that title. That is impressive. I mean, I don't know why Channel 4 does sport. I mean, it's slightly confusing to me. Because there's space on the satellite. I mean, Whisper's a company that's obviously grown hugely over the past few years. So he's got a big job, though. He's head of sport there. Is that right? But yeah, I don't really know much about him. Well, we'll see how well he does. One day I'll watch a bit of sport on Channel 4. And then we'll come back and we'll discuss it again. Interesting, your first interview on your new podcast was with Gary Lineker, someone I know that you know, but you have zero football knowledge, which made that an interesting start.

22:26We'll talk more about your show after the break.

22:36Hello, Media Club listeners. Patrick here from Podcast Discovery, the podcast marketing company, where this week we've been thinking about hosting. Apple Podcasts just announced several more hosting partners that will be able to post video podcasts to the platform. But Spotify still has their own different list of posts that will get your video podcast on their platform. So where's the best place to be? We have thoughts. Get in touch at podcastdiscovery.com. That's podcastdiscovery.com. In this ever-changing media landscape, What doesn't change is the need for a studio that's ready for whatever comes next.

23:13And that's Podshop Studios, where we record the Media Club every week. Each studio has its own distinct look and feel, professionally designed and fully equipped for broadcast quality video recording. You can check out the whole range at podshoponline.co.uk and they're offering Media Club listeners 25 % off their first booking when they use the code Media Club. So head along to podshoponline.co.uk and use the code Media Club. Taking care of your eyes shouldn't be a hassle. That's why Warby Parker is a one-stop shop for all your vision needs. Our prescription glasses and sunglasses are expertly crafted and unexpectedly affordable.

23:53Stop by a nearby store or use our app to virtually try on frames and get personalized recommendations. Did we mention we offer eye exams and take vision insurance too? For everything you need to see, head to your nearest Warby Parker store or visit warbyparker.com today. That's WarbyParker.com.

24:38Visit sling.com to learn more. Quick question. When was the last time a display ad changed your mind? Now think about the last time a friend told you about something they loved. Different feeling, right? That's how podcast advertising works. A host who's built real trust with their audience talks about your brand in their own words, in their own voice. It doesn't interrupt the experience. It's part of it. With Acast, you can access the world's largest podcast marketplace. Choose the right shows, the right audiences, the right format. Then watch the data tell you it worked. You're not buying impressions.

25:12You're buying influence. Learn more by visiting acast.com slash advertise.

25:22Welcome back. Here's some other stories we've been talking about in the club this week. David Letterman has called CBS lying weasels for cancelling The Late Show with Stephen Colbert on financial grounds. The final episode airs on the 21st of May. He said, all of television seems to have been nicked by digital communications and streaming platforms, while insisting that the talk show format won't die. Netflix and Left Bank Pictures have launched a paid training program tied to their hit Scottish noir series, Department Q. Up to 20 paid trainee roles will be available when season two films in Scotland later this year.

25:59It's backed by Screen Scotland and Sony Pictures Television. trainees earn£750 a week. And podcast sales company Acast has posted its first ever profitable quarter. Net sales grew 20 % year-on-year in Q1 with organic growth of 31%. The CEO described what was once the video conundrum as now one of podcasting's most exciting growth drivers as four in five listeners turn out to both listen and watch depending on context. Links to all of our stories are available on our sub stack. Just go to themediaclub.com to sign up. All free, themediaclub.com. Rich and Alison are still with me. Talking podcasts, you've got a new one.

26:40I have. Why are you more successful than me? Yeah. No, why are you more successful than me? It's an idea that I like. I missed interviewing people. And so having spent a lot of years on Radio 5 Live, and I did long form interviews, and I just missed it. And separately, my company, Yes Yes Media, we are moving towards this is testing the water a bit we are going to start and do a couple of talk shows on youtube and that kind of thing so it's useful for us to learn and we're learning as we go we're going to keep up scaling it and do lots of big guests but but i do i'm interested in people and i like people so it's a show about success it's a show about failure it's a show about all of those things and it's a show about um what drives someone what makes them different why is gary different to most of us gary linick being the first guest so it's about that it's exploring the drive, the failures.

27:31And then of course, it's an excuse to talk to someone about their life and career. So yeah, when I did Five Live and I used to talk to Ricky Gervais for an hour, all that went away because I've gone in this different direction. I loved being on the radio live. Those conversations were always interviewed because I had to cross to a sports commentator because the manager of Coventry had just... Ricky, I know it's a great story about the office, but the manager of Coventry has been sacked. Steve, what's the latest? It's all like that. And so, sorry, Ricky, where were we? Hang on, time for the travel.

28:04Hold it. So obviously with the podcast, what we're doing now is it is a nonstop conversation. I know you put adverts here, but nonetheless, they're very clear segments. I like the way that podcasts, you talk there about talk shows and the talk show format. In the end, look at us here on this set. I remember I used to go on TV shows like Richard and Judy's Channel 4 afternoon show. It just looked a bit like this. but except the cameras had operators but it was basically this and so podcasts have become the talk shows and they've become better conversations i think a few years ago i would never have predicted that long conversations would do so well because there tends to be we were taught weren't we the things are the last seven minutes and you're on to the next or 15 seconds yeah but everything is short and everything is quick and that's what i keep in mind when i'm trying to design formats i wouldn't have predicted that joe rogan podcast could last three hours but actually when you consume them and you put them on when you go to bed at night it is actually lovely and comforting and wonderful so uh i'm going back to what i used to do i'm talking to people i find interesting and it is a conversation about success failure in their career and it's partly for the company but it's partly for me because i i liked it and i like doing it i was listening to some of the first episodes which you can get now uh garylina one was good i wouldn't one across Linda LaPlante.

29:22Oh, did you listen to Linda? Yeah. Is that one out? Out today. Is it out today? Yeah. God, she was terrific. I mean, she is 83. She's just tough and impressive. She began her career as an actor. A very successful actor. A very successful actor. And I think maybe even in her 40s when she was working on shows, she said, but the scripts are so bad. She said, well, I reckon I could just do this myself. And of course, went on to create, you know, huge huge show prime suspect being a really obvious one um and she's just formidable we actually cut out about the first 10 minutes of the chat on that podcast because i think she you know sometimes someone's staking you out and they're a bit unsure well i could see her face was like not sure i should be here don't know who this person is i don't know why i'm on a podcast called why are you more successful than me and then you warm up and you get into the flow of it I love to I mean for me Gary Lineker and I talked about this um in that interview because we're both obviously in a lot of broadcasting it's there is as well for me it the technique of interviewing someone itself is interesting and it takes practice and it takes time but the you know people say as an interviewer the job is to really listen that is true it's just it's hard to do it when you're a brand new interviewer.

30:39It really does take time and practice. And at Five Live, what I used to do when I got better and better at it was I'd read all the notes. I'd read quickly. I'd read the notes and I'd throw them away and I'd only write the first question and I wouldn't write any others. And I would just listen to the first answer and see where it took me. And that's all I do. And if you can employ that technique in an interview, it's really surprising where you get to because you haven't got the rigid format. You have, oh, better go back to that question. suddenly you realize that you can get anywhere and i think that's also why linda lapland turned out to be so surprising well i was listening to them i could definitely hear your five live training if that's the right phraseology because there's lots of podcasts there's lots of interviews shows out there and they're not the toughest things in the world there's a lot of people interviewing them their mates i felt there was a little more more depth you were trying to unlock something and i think the concept allows you to ask tougher questions because you can come back to but why why are you like that i'm trying to get to something i suppose why am i like that i suppose it's partly about at its core i like people and i find people interesting and i think that life is not a straightforward linear progression for anybody and so interviews where they're just saying really nice things and you're amazing and it's amazing to have you here aren't very interesting to me what at some level you want to get to the human bit in the story and the human bit in the story is often about failure is off is is is rarely the bit when you are at your most successful so if you only talk to gary about when he scored goals in a world cup or when match of the day got the most viewers that's what we talk about it's not that interesting for me it's interesting to talk to about his advocacy for when things have gone wrong for what he said about gaza with dexter fletcher in the second episode which he talks a lot about his regrets about how he wish he'd pushed himself harder in america and i suppose it's just about holistically finding people interesting i suppose so even now when i work on formats that are meant to be comedic that i always want the trick to be somewhere inside it will move you you want it's going to sound so grand but you want things to be a bit of a symphony where you've just got a range of emotions and if you can achieve that then i think you've got something interesting now alison what's the key to a good interview the key to a good interview something true i mean it's exactly what you're describing right and also the joy in it i mean you said it earlier as well you've got to be having fun.

32:59Yeah. You've got to like it. It's a trick. Do you know what else it is? It's actually a privilege. It is, it is, and this is one of the, I think this is probably why so many people do podcasts and I was resistant to doing one because so many people do them. You must have been asked a thousand times. Yeah, and actually, this, why he was successful to me, I started recording it about six years ago and I never put it out. I did one with Gary then, I did one with Ricky Gervais, I did one with Alan DeBot and I never put him out but I, then I thought, no Richard, why aren't you, look, I talk to myself in a third person, of course, like I interview myself.

33:30Richard, why aren't you? Sounds ridiculous. A special episode just with yourself. Just to be clear, when I talk to myself in my head, I don't say Richard. But I did wonder why I wasn't doing it. When you have, even when I know Dexter, I know Gary. Of course, I don't know all the guests in real life. But when you know someone in real life, what you don't do is talk to them the way you do in an interview. You talk over dinner, you talk about different things. it allows you to talk to them and listen to them in a way that you've never done before even if you've known them for years and and that i think is a wonderful thing and i think it's a privilege to sit down with someone for ages and just chat to them and listen to them alison when you think of your team they don't become friends with politicians but they need to be these have good relationships with them i mean politicians love gossip a lot of stories come from politicians but They cover them as well.

34:24What is a good political journalist? What are the elements that make them good at that job? Janet Malcolm called it decades ago. It is a game of vanity and it is a game of seduction. And, you know, everybody's playing their role in it. I suppose there are people who would call themselves actual friends and then they should get out of the business of covering whoever they're actually friends with. But there is a relationship and you see it so much more differently, so much differently now with phones, right? And these late night texts and the way that my team, you know, the playbookers, they're up literally all night.

35:02And I have said to them, could we not adjust this? Could you not maybe go to sleep at like 2 a.m.? I said, no, people are still sending us things at 3 o 'clock in the morning. It's like in the middle of the actual night. And there is a real relationship there. I don't think it's friendship, but it is something else where everybody's getting some sort of emotional connection out of it. But that is how reporters and the best source reporters have always operated. What is Politico in 2026? What is the output? What are the formats? I'm conscious there's a lot of live activity. There's a lot of live activity.

35:34But almost that thing you're describing there, that's a 24-hour always on. It's media in a different form. It is. I think people have this idea, not just about Politico, but all reporters that, you know, they've seen it in some trashy film that like somebody calls them up and says, I got a hot tip for you and, you know, just hands it to them. And it doesn't work that way. You know, my reporters and all good reporters work so hard just to locate people, to find people who are willing to talk to them, to find people who are willing to talk to them and tell them what's actually happening, to triangulate things, to make sure that it's true, to make sure they're not getting spun.

36:09All of that is time and energy. And I have a terrific team. So I actually had been at Politico in Washington. I was hired to be the White House editor at the beginning of the first Trump administration. I was there working with Kerry Budoff-Brown, who recently left NBC and is now back in Brussels. I left Politico to go to CNN and then last year moved to the UK and am now here running the operation here. I have the best team. They are so kind to each other and so vicious toward everybody else. So were you in the White House press room during Trump's first term? Were you in the press briefings? So I was an editor.

36:49So I have been in the press room, but I was not actually one of the people, you know, in the press briefings with Sean Spicer and the rest. I was just thinking about all those wild. All of those wild things, all of the days of there were definitely times when we had our own private meetings and we'd get called to the carpet. And but this was before, you know, did you have one on ones with Trump as president at any point? So Politico at that time and Trump at that time was not calling and answering the phone as much as he is today. Politico at that time did not land the big set piece interviews that we have more recently.

37:28So we just this year had a big interview, or I guess at the very end of last year, we had a big interview on camera with Trump. But Politico in that era was even more guerrilla than it is now and was really reporting around the rest of that administration. But every single side of everybody was calling us. Well, now you've been doing pubs at party conferences for a while. There's a speakeasy thing you're doing in Prague. Why all these things? We are basically quietly launching an alcoholic business. No, we had this great brainwave, which is, you know, what do people want to do? They don't want another summit.

38:11And our events team came up with this idea of doing a Politico pub at party conferences last year and built an actual pub. And it was great. And people came and we had a live feed out of it with our journalists interviewing. politicians and near politicians, political figures. But it was also in a pub. And the great thing about a pub is that people know how you behave in one. And so they actually clicked it instead of behaving as you would. And, you know, we're in a panel. They actually walked in a pub like, oh, now I'm in pub mentality. It's exactly what you're describing of being in a lounge or a living room.

38:46And we got people to be themselves in a way that I think they hadn't been in previous party conference environments. And it really was a lot of fun. What do you see as the difference between your US team and the UK team or the style? What's Britain journalism, British journalism like versus American journalism? I think our UK team is much smaller. They are aware that they, you know, the US operation really began as a reaction to the Washington Post mainly. And the idea that these reporters had all this amazing stuff in their notebooks that they could talk about at dinner. they could talk about with friends, but they could not publish it.

39:28And so Politico is created as a place where they could publish it. Here, I think the environment is very different. I mean, there's no equivalent to private eye in the U.S. And when I try to explain to Americans what private eye is, they just give me these blank stares. And then when they get it, they say it's horrifying and run away. But I think, you know, what we have been able to build is an operation that really gives Westminster a single place to go in the morning. when they wake up and really get everything that they need to know for the day. And it's a little bit of a village sheet. You know, it's like the school paper in its way.

40:07I do think it was interesting to me in the first Trump administration in the U.S. We had this readership that came in that was just civilians, you know. And I still have people who will say to me, oh, I read playbook all the time who are, they're in tech. They're not anywhere near politics, but they subscribed 10 years ago and still get it and they still actually read it. So there is a way in which it is very much designed for an insider audience. But people who just want to know what the hell is going on in the halls of power, whichever country they're in, can read it and get something out of it.

40:39Richard, let's just talk formats before the quiz. So you spent a lot of time doing formats, coming up with new ideas. Probably people who are very aware of your broadcast side maybe don't know so much about that. has the job of creating formats shifted over that period what is a good format today is it the same as what was good 10 years well i i don't know i don't know if it is it's probably you obviously you have a zeitgeist thing so the traitors is the biggest format and then 12 13 years ago it was that deal or no deal and before that was who wants to be a millionaire um and it's strictly come dancing is a perennial you know global show all the got talent you know they're they're around uh i i basically got into it only a few and my first format only came out five years ago which was on abc in america called the hustler and then i had a one called this is my house i don't know i sort of quickly got a few going um and then i got an overall deal at nbc and then i'd set up a company backed by sister which is owned by jane featherstone and liz murdoch and um and i'm very that's a big part of my life and i i do i i like coming up with ideas it's what makes me happy in in a funny sort of way.

41:49I mean, lots of things make me happy, but that in particular makes me happy, the process of coming up with ideas. I don't know. What I don't do is what I think, I think what a lot of people do is they do try and see what are the most popular formats at the moment, and they do listen to network briefings about what it is you're supposed to come up with. I've never really been able to operate like that. I just, I have an idea, and I just think, oh, that's interesting, and I want to pursue it. As a company, what I've tried to do, because the first few shows that I got on air, and we've been working on some other stuff we're all basically game shows um i've been trying to do really quite big scale things and we are doing them talent shows um and reality shows i'm doing a lot in america basically um so i for me it's i this is how i see it in a way it's not necessarily about the type of format at the moment i think if something's interesting you could turn in something good anyway but for me it is looking at the market and going right it's hard it's slow I wasn't prepared for it to be quite this slow.

42:48I mean, I have a very short attention span and I have very strong ADHD and I like things that move quickly. And when you're on the radio, you have an idea and you put it on, you get an immediate reaction. A lovely thing about a podcast is you're going to get a reaction. You can look at the data, you can get comments. You know, this talent show I mentioned at the beginning of our conversation, which should be on our next year now. I mean, that is an idea that I had three years ago. It is, you know, it takes time and it's a process. and the other thing of course is in unscripted tv it it is it's got harder and harder to make money really and even when you get a game show on and even if that game show goes to a few other countries it's still nobody made that much money and so i what i've tried to do and again it's a slow process but i think we're doing it is work on big projects that have alternate revenue streams as well so that we're not just relying on what you normally get is 10 % of a production fee, sometimes a bit less.

43:47So for me, it's more like, do I love the idea? Do I find it interesting? Is it big and ambitious? Can it have another revenue stream in it? That's how I think. But I don't tend to pay attention to the market in the way that I think I should. Well, you're not the only person developing exciting new formats, because it's time for the Audio Network Media Quiz.

44:12Three news stories hidden within an existing media property. This week, it's plot twist. In the great American TV novella tradition, we thought things were finished, but then the music swells, the camera pushes in, there's a dramatic reveal. I'm going to read you a plot twist. You tell me what the real media story I'm desperately grasping at is. And as always, our friends at Audio Network are supplying a soundtrack to today's game. we asked Ben there to provide something with the energy of a great primetime cliffhanger. So, you need to buzz in with your names when you know the answer. So, Richard, you will say?

44:49Richard. Good. And Alison, you will say? I talk to myself anyway. I'm used to it. Alison, you will say? I will say Alison. Okay, let's play Plot Twist. It was a show, they said, that couldn't possibly return. But which game that aired from 1976 to 1987 is Back From The Dead? Richard. Ah. Name That Tune. Name That Tune. Is it Name That Tune? It is Name That Tune. It's coming back to ITV, hosted by Alison Hammond. ITV Studios Bright Entertainment is producing the reboot alongside Bigger Stage. Did you listen to Name That... Do you watch Name That Tune as a child? I named Name That Tune in one. So, yeah.

45:29I did. I thought it was terrific. I absolutely loved it as a kid. It's such a wonderful play-along game, isn't it? It's really magic. we're working on a format called silent disco at the moment it's got that slight element of popular music can it pull you in and can you recognise it fast it's very universal it's a lovely format because music gets under your skin and into your memory forever it's actually been doing pretty well on Fox so it's not fully back from the dead it's been doing alright on Fox in the States for a while so I think the success of it over there has brought it back here did you have that tune growing up you must have done No, I didn't listen to it.

46:06Well, you can enjoy the Alistair Hammond version soon. But I do have the millionaire tune now going. It's actually normally really good shows. All of the elements are correct. And that's one of the few really successful shows that's got a crap theme tune. Okay. Reboot it. We'll see what the reboot has. It's still on. Okay. Plot twist number two. She got the scoop of the decade. They made two films about her, but this journalist has unfinished business. Alison? Yes. Is this Emily Maitlis? This is Emily Maitlis. Channel 4 have commissioned a documentary series on... Epstein. Yes, on the Epstein files.

46:49Obviously she has some previous on this. Richard, you were saying that you were watching it, the interview with Prince Andrew back. I can't recommend this highly enough. It's on YouTube in full and it's so wonderful to watch it again. I, about three weeks ago, my friend was round and we'd had a bit to drink and we were like, well, should we watch it again? And we watched it all. And then a few days later, I was with my parents and my sisters and I went, you're not going to believe this. But I re-watched it all because that's about an hour, I think. But, and I went, go on, should we do it? So it all sat down and put it on YouTube on the big screen.

47:24And it's just so, it's so interesting. I mean, you were talking, Alison, earlier about, you know, the right type of interviewer, especially in news and current affairs. There's a lot, she is so the right choice A that it's a woman doing it but B you know you talked about when journeys can get maybe too close to a subject if you'd had like Jonathan Dimbleby doing that who recently has been trying to claim that the king's better off because of this Andrew scandal like you know he would have been oh your gracious majesty oh this must be awful for you are you okay like it would have been like that whereas Emily Maitis is such a kind of badass she only uses the title your royal highness when she says goodbye at the end she just goes your royal highness at the very end the funniest bit which you will completely forgotten is right at the end of the interview you realise he thought he was there essentially for something else he talks about a badge scheme I think it's something to do with that pitch at the palace thing so she goes on and on about Epstein and staying at his apartment and being very graphic the whole time and at the end suddenly he goes She says, oh, do you want to talk about your badge scheme?

48:32And he goes, yes, well, I'll buy you. It's like 20 ,000 people are now wearing the badges all over the world. And you watch it and you go, oh, he thought that's what it was about. He thought when this was over, we were going to be talking about his badge scheme. It's really impressive. She's so thorough. She does such a good job on behalf of, you know, I think Virginia Dufresne's family. At that point, she was still alive, wasn't she? But you cannot, it's tragic in ways. It's hilarious. I mean you talk about a symphony there are points when it's so funny and I know it's a dark subject but do you remember this bit where she towards the end he talks about Epstein as being unbecoming and she goes unbecoming he was a paedophile and a sex offender and that is you know I said it earlier the best interviews are about listening fuck me is she fuck me is she listening but anyway that was a long winded way of saying I cannot recommend highly enough watching it all in full again Every week.

49:30Every single week. With everybody who comes over to your house. With your parents. Alison, is it the dream of lots of journalists now that a story that they work on kind of has another life, that it gets sold to Netflix or it becomes a book? Is that something that is much more doable now than it ever was before? It has always been the dream of journalists to have their story get optioned and turned into a movie of any kind. I mean, from the beginning of time. I think, is it easier now? Yes, it is easier to get something optioned and even maybe to get it on the track to, you know, pretending that it's going to be made.

50:11But I think that that whole economy has ground down to as much of a halt as the rest of the creative universe right now. I mean, I think that the days of, you know, options flying around all over the place, I think, have really, really dialed back. but there was a really good 10-year period in there. I think, you know, journalists now also, as always, they would like for it to mean something. Okay, final one. This is for the win. You've got one each now. Alan Carr stood in tears. Nothing could possibly follow that, but somebody has opened the gates again. I do know. Go on. Alison, I'll go Celebrity Traitor.

50:53Yay. So this is Celebrity Traitor Series 2. participants have been announced. So, Deep Breath, Bella Ramsey, Michael Sheen, Rich D. Grant, Maya Jammer, Rob Beckett, Rommash Ranganathan, Ross Kent, Miranda Hart, Amal Rajan and more. Richard, were you asked? I was not asked. I'd love to do a show like that. I mean, I don't really go on TV anymore, but I do that one. You're available, is the point. No, too late now, but I do that one because it's so, it appeals to someone like me. And sometimes I, you know, it's such a good format. It was developed in Holland. And the game show that I did five years ago called The Hustler, which I made with Studio Lambert, was about a sort of, it was like the traitors in an episode, except they did such a, except the traitors is better, obviously.

51:36They also just did a thing I hadn't considered, which is, I always thought, like Agatha Christie, you reveal the murderer at the end. But that twist where, no, you know who the murderer is. It's absolutely magic. It's just, it doesn't really matter. That's a very good cast. It doesn't matter. I mean, that's how good it is. It doesn't really matter. it's just it's going to work because it's the best format since who wants to be a millionaire and it's gonna and it is is already everywhere and yeah it'll do the whole world i was sort of interested off the first one because all new reality shows for kind of civilians people don't really know what they're letting themselves in for and sometimes there's some magic that comes from that series two series three series four becomes a little bit game playing they know how to how to play the game as well.

52:22I get the impression that the celebrities aren't doing the normal thing, which is people are going on to resuscitate their careers or try to change. They just really want to go on it. It is good for their careers though, isn't it? It's the number one show in the country. It's good for every single person on the last season. You're talking about how when they go on these shows, they know how to play the game. But Michael Sheen does not need to go on it, does he? No, but it's fun, isn't it? It's the ultimate parlor game. It just really looks like a fun thing to do and an interesting thing to do.

52:55And people do take it very seriously, which is these things only work. As much as it's a sort of Scooby-Doo world, they only work if people take it seriously. And they do. And, of course, agents are going to be going, OK, well, the first Celebrity Traitors was just incredible for everyone on it. So those agents are now playing the game of I better get my client on this. So I think it's success means it's also just gets easier to book. success begets success but it's such a good format it is so well executed that it deserves it well I think they are playing the game right now thank you to both of you Alison you are the winner of the quiz as your prize you can try and get us all booked on The Traitors next year that is my prize is trying to get us booked oh my god either celebrity or civilian I think we'll all take either and also thank you to Ben at Audio Network for supplying today's music remember Audio Network can do this for you as well just head to audionetwork.com or there's a link in the show notes thank you both where can people keep up with what you're doing what is your social network output of choice the podcast that's a good question if you follow me on X it's just me wanging on about politics a lot which I wish I didn't because that's not my job anymore my podcast is Why You're More Successful Than Me and the rest of my life is writing, developing shows in many cases for America at the moment we're going to start doing it in Britain as well more, but it's hard to follow that until they're on TV.

54:20Alison, how about you and your team's work? So you can find us at politico.eu and Playbook is a newsletter. You can sign up for it for free. Lovely. Thank you both. Thank you. Thank you for watching and listening. My name's Matt Deegan. The producer is Matt Hill. It was a Rethink Audio production with video support from Podcast Discovery. I'll see you next week.

54:53Do you keep hearing podcast ads like this one, for example, but always wonder how you actually get involved with them for your own brand or organization? Well, it's easier than you think. We're Acast, and we give you the platform to do it all yourself. Browse thousands of popular podcasts, choose the shows that match your perfect audience, set your budget and launch. And if you want a hand, our podcast specialists are there to help you launch with confidence. This is podcast advertising without barriers. Get started at acast.com slash advertise.

55:43James Bond song to ever get to number one, and you'll never guess which one it is. On Thursday, the comic ineptitude of the thieves who tried to steal Edvard Munch's The Scream. And on Friday, we remember the days when Coca-Cola had cocaine in it. That's Today in History with The Retrospectors. Ten minutes each weekday, wherever you get your podcasts.