Scottish Media In Focus and a Rajars Special

0:01Hello, welcome to the Media Club. I'm Matt Deegan. In the Club today, we're in Glasgow to see how Scottish media media is meeting the challenge of fragmentation. We speak to Bobby Hayne and Graham Bryce about launching STV Radio. And we have STV Studios exec Paul Sheehan on expanding their portfolio. Also on the show, it's Ray Jars Week. How have stations all across the country performed? Adam Bowie takes us through who's up and who's down. All that, plus another new station, is launching on BBC Sounds. We talk to more Scottish firms looking to buck the commissioning slowdown. And in the Audio Network Media Quiz, we play Media Master.

0:36That's all happening in this edition of the Media Club. Come on in.

0:46So welcome to the Glasgow branch of the Media Club. We need to start with our regular format point, who you'd like as a plus one. Bobby, MD of audiences, I'm going to go for you first. Who would you like to add to the club's roles this week? It's a whole show. It's steel on Amazon Prime, which I was watching. and the reason it comes to mind is I completely forgot that they came to STV News to ask us to do some news bulletins and when they came to make it, as is often the case, the show wasn't called Steel. So I wasn't prepared watching this big heist thriller with Sophie Turner, which is fantastic, and then all of a sudden up pops Kellyanne Woodland from our newsroom reading the news.

1:26Fantastic. I watched it as well. It's a really good series. It's excellent. Very glossy, very high-tech, and great to see STV News in there. Yes, Amazon Prime, if you want to watch that. Graham, you're heading up STV Radio, former boss at Bauer as well. Who would you like to nominate for your plus one this week? Well, I'd like to nominate a former STV executive and now CEO of Global, Simon Pitts. I think, as you probably know, traditional media companies have found it really hard to get into the podcast space. I tried that myself at Bauer. It was a really difficult market. and I think their recent acquisition of The Overlap, I know it's a few weeks old now, but the recent acquisition of The Overlap, I think, is a tremendous move for them and add that to the fellow studios, what they're doing with the news agents.

2:13I think they're now building a pretty powerful portfolio in the podcast space. So I would say tip my little hat to Simon and the team. Yeah, I mean, global, always aggressive. When they want to do something, they go after it. Simon, newest CEO there. He's probably got quite a lot to deal with. Yeah, I think your point on the aggressiveness, I think what Global do really well is find opportunities that maybe other people wouldn't go for, maybe from a valuation point of view or a boldness point of view. So I think the overlap, maybe some other companies would have looked at it and maybe shied away from the numbers that were being reported.

2:47But I think Global go for things. When they go for it, they go for it big and it tends to work out for them. And finally, Paul, you're at STV Studios heading up a large production operation. Who's your pick to add to the club this week? Well, I've chosen someone very different. I've chosen Seth Rogen because he's brought back The Muppet Show today. Or as we record today on Disney, which is a fantastic nostalgia fest, although I fear I'm giving away my own vintage there. And I haven't seen it yet, but I'm very excited to see it. And I wanted to segue into the wonderful series that was The Studio and thinking about the very sad loss of Catherine O 'Hara this week, who was just sublime and wonderful.

3:28so that's my choice. Good choice. When you were watching the studio did you think that's me, that's my life? A variation of that perhaps but certainly I felt the stress. I definitely felt the stress. I find the whole sort of the live record and the single take very, very stressful even as a viewer so I don't get to quite relax as much as I would perhaps like to but it's a great show. The Muppet Show reboot's an interesting one. I think it's a one-off at the moment but obviously there's a lot of potential for that to be a series. It's quite hard when you've got such a well-known IP and the Muppets have had good years and bad years.

4:05Do you think it's time for a full-time renaissance for Kermit & Co.? I think it's time for us to have something that makes us smile and just cheer us up. So, I mean, there's lots of great stuff out there just now, but I was just really delighted to see the trailer and to read about it. So, yeah, I'm definitely watching it tonight. I saw a quick review from Scott Bryan this morning He says it's definitely a hit, so I look forward to watching that later. Right, in a moment, it's been a busy start to the year for STV. We'll find out why. See you in a sec.

4:42Welcome back to the Media Club. This is our RAJR special of the Media Club in partnership with Radio Experts, the audio agency specialist, bringing you a sound perspective. Graham, you've just launched STV Radio. Luckily, you don't have to worry about RAJRs for a little while. For a little while. They're out for everybody else. So why a radio station for STV? Well, in simple terms, you may know that my last job, one of the last things that I did was launch Radio 6 Radio in the network. And we were surprised that we found such a big gap in the market in what is essentially a mature market. So when I left Bauer, I looked at the market and thought, is there any other gaps that are opening up, given what else is going on in the marketplace?

5:24and obviously I looked at my home country, Scotland is back here. And so what I think was a real opportunity for a radio station and to partner with STV was a marriage made in heaven in terms of putting these two powerhouses together to create our first national commercial radio station for Scotland. So I think it's got big potential. It's the early days, only four weeks old, but we're really excited about it. So lots of different ways you can do a radio station in 2025. FM difficult but in a sort of declining market The station's on DAB, it's on the internet as well You talked a bit about greatest hits radio When you think about target audiences Who's the target for this?

6:06Where's the gap? Sure, it's sort of 35 plus, it's for mature audiences So Bower, as you know, are very strong in Scotland In terms of their local stations and their local marketplaces Playing sort of hit musics and a bit of throwbacks But in the older segment, they tend to be the national stations are doing reasonably well up here. So Smooth's doing quite well. Great Sits is doing quite well. Radio 2, of course. So in that 35 plus segment, we don't think there's much opportunity or much stations out there at the moment for audiences that are a bit older, want that kind of Scottish-led content, want a bit of real relatable presenters that they know and love, talking about things that they're doing in their day-to-day life.

6:42So the opportunity is that 35 plus, Scottish made, Scottish homegrown, talking about life here in Scotland that maybe some of the national stations aren't doing because they're truly UK national stations. So Forth and Clyde, I mean, for listeners that don't know, are almost ridiculously successful in this marketplace. I remember looking a few years back, I think Clyde's numbers, and they'd had their best ever figures, which shouldn't happen nowadays. All these heritage stations should be in decline. Are you sort of saying that they own such a big part of the market that there's an opportunity to chip away at that top end?

7:14Yeah, I think if you look at competitive markets in the world, I think there's very few that are as competitive in Scotland and the gap between the number one station and number two station is so vast. And what that tells you is that the number one stations are doing brilliantly, serving the market very well indeed, but maybe the competitors aren't serving in the way that listeners are looking for. So that's what we think. We think there's opportunity for this kind of Scottish-led, relatable content, and maybe some of those older audiences that are still listening to the Clyde, the Force, the North Sions, the Taze, that maybe the music isn't for them.

7:44I think half their hours are maybe 50 plus. So there's an opportunity there for that older end that maybe the music's not there, but we're going to provide them with a similar level of real relatable content, talking about Scotland, news and information, sports, all the things that they love, but maybe with a music palette that maybe is a bit more for them. A bit more for them. When you look at Scotland, you've got Global and Bauer, got Global in the market with CommuniCore. So this is like Heart and Smooth. I mean, they were a service that ended up being a lot of UK content. And then in about 18 months, they switched back and went to a lot of Scottish programming.

8:19I mean, they're finding it quite troublesome to make a mark. Is that an opportunity or a worry that they can't quite manage? I think radio is a very habitual thing and people sort of make a decision about a station and then stick with it or not. The Clyde and Forth are a good example of that. I think with those national brands, Heart and Capital particularly, put in daytime Scottish content, I think the trouble for them is that I think the listeners still feel that their UK networks, they're UK brands, okay they've got a bit of Scottish content in them but they're really broadcasting really from somewhere else it's not really about this marketplace so I think this idea that we have is 24-7 from Scotland it's at weekends, it's overnights, it's the whole thing I think that means people feel it's embedded here, it's kind of grown here it's rooted here as opposed to maybe this hybrid model it may work, it may not work but I think people make a judgement about where the brand comes from Aren't we in like a national, international world Does the Scottishness matter?

9:15Radio 2 does all right here? Sure, it does really well. It does really well. I think our judgment, and certainly I've worked in this market for a long time. I used to run those borough stations, as you know. I think in general terms, there's a massive generality, but I think half the market is really comfortable with UK content, really comfortable with UK networks, and half the market is really looking for something that's a bit more real and relatable to do with their lives. So I think you can split it up like that. It's a bit like the politics in Scotland. It's a bit half and half. So I think there's a market for UK stations, of course, and the national strategies of those stations are absolutely right for them.

9:46But there's also a market gap opportunity for people who want to create Scottish content in here for the people here. And so you went and scooped up some Scottish talent to be on your radio station. So Ewan and Kat doing breakfast. They were greatest hits before. Did you have a big, long list of people you wanted to try and scoop up? Yeah, yeah. And frankly, we got them all, all the ones that I wanted. You would say that. I would say that. But I think we've got a really strong lineup, honestly. I think our lineup is as good as anything that's out there. I think they're all seasoned broadcasters.

10:20In fact, every single one of our main daytime lineup has been a breakfast show host in Scotland, either nationally or locally. So they're really competent, really professional, really well known for the audiences up here. So I think we've got a really strong lineup of people and let's reach into the audience about it and hope they come in and love it. Yeah. Bobby, you've got a radio background. I guess, were you at the beginning of Beat 106 or quite near the start of Beat 106 when that launched up here? I was the launch MD for Beat 106. So you've got past experience of launching a Scottish radio station.

10:49Why did you want to go, yes, Graham, let's have another go at that? Well, this is my third launch because I launched North Sound 1981. In fact, two of the people that Graham has brought, which is a stellar lineup, Gregsy and Webster, I work with their fathers. That's how old I am. So back in 1981 when commercial radio was booming, all of the things that Graham has just described about the market applied at the same time, which the difference was there was no Scottish local market at that point. And it became hugely successful, the North Sounds, the Tay's, Forth's, Clyde's, et cetera. And then Beat 106 helped disrupt that market in 1999.

11:24And I think we spotted the same thing that we see now, which is there is a market for music that is a bit different and distinctive and really targeted at Scotland. And the whole Beat 106 was the difference, you know, it was a combination of club music and a kind of guitar music. So there was the big nightclub vibe. And at the same time, there was tea in the park. And those are the two halves of Beat 106. And that was the success of that station, which became Capital, as we know. And at the same time, the market, we know very well. So Graham has just described what I think is a perfect analysis of the opportunity for STV.

11:59And the one thing that STV brings, of course, is we have a huge presence in Scotland. We reach 75 % of people every single month. So we've got a real place to add to that market and to bring attention to the radio station. And one of the funny things on the way to launch was spending so much time thinking what we should call the radio station. It was hiding in plain sight. You know, STV radio rolls off the tongue. It's a very natural name. It's a very natural association for STV. And the interesting thing, having worked in radio and TV, is they're entirely complementary. So the big radio audiences where you put all your resources, the breakfast show in the morning, That's where you attract attention, where there's a big drive time audience.

12:39Whereas TV has always peaked six, seven o 'clock in the evening where it's peak time viewing. So having a presence in both those platforms is really important for us. I think the other interesting thing from a TV perspective is, and you touched on this, Graham, which is the radio has not been affected by global streamers. There is no Netflix of radio. There is no Amazon Prime of radio. it's very much a local market and I think one of the great strengths of the technology today is in the STV radio schedule we've got Ewan and Kat in the breakfast show at Pacific Quay but then we go to Aberdeen where Gregsy is live then Webster's back in the studio over to Kirkcaldy we're in Aviemore around the country and I think that is a real take on what used to be local radio around the country and still brings that very local connection to a Scottish radio station You mentioned the streamers there I mean, all kind of traditional broadcasters have faced pressure from a massively changing market.

13:37STV is no different. 2025 was a tough year for the business financially, kind of structurally. And there's still kind of issues with the regulatory side. How did the team feel about adding radio to the party when, you know, some of the TV stuff had to be altered and some of the journalism had to be altered as well? I think it's very tough. The reality is we have to make changes in our core business and we have to grow our business at the same time. And the real reason that we are excited about radio is it can be a future presence and a future profit growth and profit stream for STV. And that's why we have to invest now.

14:16Actually, compared to television numbers, it's a very modest investment. And at that same time, that opportunity happened to come along as we talked to Graham about the plan and the opportunity. at the same time, you're right. Things are tough in some areas of the business. Like a lot of broadcasters, there's a move to digital viewing, digital consumption. And I think there's a real focus on what is the cost of those public service obligations. They've been at the heart of commercial television, Channel 3, for decades. But if you go back to 1957, we were nearly 70 years old. You had 100 % market share of the advertising market.

14:53It's a very different environment now. and our licences haven't changed in 20 years. And also one of the things we see is the amount of stories in a devolved Scotland, for example, which are about the workings of the Scottish Parliament or an area of life that they are responsible for, whether it's health or education, criminal justice and so on. Actually, those stories are of interest to all our viewers around the country. So rather than duplicate that material and make it twice for the North and the Central Belt, we've come up with a way forward which combines the best of our news gathering across all the country but also gives a separate section in our news programmes to the north and also to the central belt.

15:28And I understand that change is difficult for people and we're very keen to now get on with those new plans and we're waiting for Ofcom who've given a provisional go ahead. So we do have a way forward here. We can see that the regulator accepts what we've said. We're waiting for other voices, other evidence. And then once we've got certainty, which I think everyone needs now, we will now deliver that new form of broadcasting for STV News. I mean, there was a strike from some of your news colleagues, which got in the way a little bit of the launch too. I mean, this is a challenge that lots of organizations face, but how do you take them on that journey to say that this is something that changes the way you work and changes the number of people that work here, but is essential for the business?

16:10I think we have to have a way of moving the whole business forward. And I think since that point where the NUJ felt it was necessary to make that gesture and to be clear on how they felt so that we could hear that and others could see it, we have that. We hear that loud and clear. The day after, we had the first STV news bulletins on the new radio station. It was fantastic. It feels like a real natural home for us to have an STV news presence. We've got audio from our clips that we record already. I think we have a fantastic track record. We've got a very strong profile of news and record of delivery.

16:46We're a trusted brand. It really adds to the radio station. We also have the sport on and we have Sean Batty doing the weather, as well as Philip, who does the weather with him in the mornings, in the afternoons. So there's a real combination of STV strengths, both past and future, that have come together. But we have to have a future plan. I think what's really important now is that we focus on digital news delivery. I mean, last year... What does that look like? What does that mean? Well, for us, it's moving our news output onto digital platforms where people are increasingly looking for it.

17:20So our TV audience, we're still the biggest TV news program in Scotland, 275 ,000 people on average watching the news in the evening at six o 'clock. But that audience has come down gently over the last few years. And yet half a billion views online for news video produced by the STV news team. So one of the objectives in making the changes is to have some resource and some time to focus on building our digital audiences. So digital news of the future, whether it's on YouTube or it's on TikTok or it's on WhatsApp or Facebook or even platforms that we don't know the names of yet because they do change as you move forward.

17:54We have to be there. We have to have a presence. There's a lot of fake news out there, and it's really important for public service media to be prominent, to be found, discoverable, and to be clearly identified. And that's what we're concentrating on now. As you said, the STV's been in the market a decent amount of time. What do you think of the rest of the Scottish TV sector? Is it a healthy sector at the moment? I think there are... It's going through the same challenges and opportunities as others. I think there's lots of production activity, which Paul can talk about. I think for us, we still see a very vibrant connection with our audiences and with businesses.

18:31I mean, one of the things that happens when you're a TV presence that's been here for 70 years, you've been along the journey for lots of Scots businesses that have grown their business using TV advertising. And yet at the same time, even though you can imagine in 70 years, we've knocked on a lot of doors to do business with advertisers up and down the country. In the past four weeks, people who've never advertised with STV are on STV radio. That's a fantastic development for our business. So I think from a commercial audience engagement perspective, there is still growth and there's still a real place and presence for STV.

19:04But it's not just on TV now. It's on VOD. It's on our radio station. It's on digital platforms. The TV production sector in Scotland moves and changes. And of course, we are the biggest commercial producer of those programs in Scotland. Paul, that's a good setup for you looking after STV studios. what's your take on the Scottish TV market, you're obviously a big part of it It's a really tough time for producers at the moment I think wherever you are in the country it's a tough time and globally as well we are a UK wide production business headquartered in Scotland with international ambitions and we have about 20 or so production labels within the family at the moment So for people that don't know, it's sort of akin to an ITV Studios model, a selection of labels.

19:57Yes, like maybe a more boutique version of ITV Studios. But yes, and we produce in multiple genres. We produce for virtually all of the UK channels and platforms and across all of our businesses. and that enables us to a certain extent to spread the risk because we have more labels who are providing to more channels and we have a huge number of returning series across those labels which have mitigated the risk for us considerably. But it's a tough time. I mean, it really does feel as if we're entering into a period of a commissioning freeze across the board to a large extent, particularly with the PSBs.

20:40Well, I was looking at the board's fast-forward strategy and you've got a tough challenge, you've got a double revenue at STV Studios. That's quite a, as you said, in a market that's changing, that's quite a tough thing. What's the way to achieve that? We are fortunate because, you know, we have a large number of labels. We have a great number of creative leaders in those labels, a number of very trusted hands within those labels and companies. And we have a number of solid returning series across the board. both here in Scotland and other parts of the UK, shows like Antiques Road Trip, The Hit List.

21:22Blue Lights in Belfast. Blue Lights in Belfast, exactly. Criminal Record is coming back for Apple. We have the Netflix show. So a good combination of returning series and new series coming on board. And we continue to invest both in development and in growth in terms of across the labels. What do you see? You talked about the commissioning slowdown. Now, you see, obviously, the reports from all of your colleagues at those labels. What's the state of that? Is it frozen, you know, these soft green lights that have appeared? I think there's a combination of challenges. I think it's difficult to get a decision, certainly in terms of new programmes.

22:00Commissioners are definitely risk averse at the moment and are probably keener to recommission safer returning brands rather than taking on board something new. So that sort of underpins a great deal of our business. But I think one of the other challenges that we face a lot of the time is financing the programs. And historically, a lot of the programs we made in the PSB arena were fully funded. And these days, particularly, perhaps in drama, you were familiar with more complex funding models. But certainly in the unscripted world, they tended to be fully funded. And now most of our programs are gap financed one way or another.

22:39And of course, the international market is very challenging at the moment, particularly with the slowdown in the States. And so a lot of the distributors are somewhat risk averse as well. And that's compounding the challenges. But you have to keep going. It's taking longer to get decisions across the board. I think everything feels much more hard won than perhaps previously. But yeah, I mean, I think producers are just heads down and keeping going. I mean, we've talked a lot in the show about the financing. And for some organizations, they never really had to worry about the financing. As you were saying there for PSPs, often things are fully funded.

23:17I mean, it really is a skill in all of those businesses to know where all those pots of money are or how to creatively fund a show. Yes, and it's constantly evolving as well. I mean, particularly, as I alluded to earlier, in terms of the international projects where, you know, we're starting to do things which are new and unfamiliar to us. and in terms of accessing different markets, different sort of support mechanisms, tax credits, soft monies in those markets. And yeah, you'd really need to have advisors and partners in those territories who can help you navigate through those challenges and through that world.

23:53But it's interesting and it's new. And there are other challenges and other opportunities around sort of branded content and digital first, which I think all producers are looking at at the moment. And we've seen that with the announcements that the BBC have made recently in terms of digital first opportunities as well. But yeah, I mean, I think for us, we've always been very familiar with the international market and we've been very lucky to have a rich and varied catalogue being around for as long as Bobby says we have. And we continue to exploit that catalogue, but perhaps previously where the catalogue was delivering additional profit to us, an awful lot of the international money is now going in to just actually finance the programmes at the outset.

24:37Bobby, obviously you're a streamer yourself. You have an STV player. Does that give you some interesting insights into maybe what some of the bigger boys are thinking about for their own streaming services? Yeah, I think we have the advantage of being small and nimble in that respect. And aside from our Channel 3 network content, which is all the network shows we share with ITV, we have exclusive use of those in our STV player in Scotland. we've also made a bit of a name for ourselves in acquiring material and carefully knitting together you know an additional offer over and above so take the high road which is a fantastic stv title from decades ago does very well but also brookside which is complementary and i think it's a good example of how we can swoop in and pick something up because we can move quickly we also have a presence on smart tvs up and down the country so that is an interesting part of our business and we do see trends around video viewing, the move to video.

25:34And of course, as well as that, we still have the benefit of those big public service moments. So the World Cup will be huge this year because so much of it will be watched on online as well as on TV. Are they giving you enough pre-roll ads on STV Player? Absolutely. No, I mean, this is the power of the partnership. You know, not only the brand, but the marketing platform that STV provides. So, you know, both STV Player on STV itself, through the databases, through the social channels, I think we're getting really good support from STV on that. Just before the break, another news station launch is planned, this time from the BBC.

26:07I don't know if you saw this, Graham, BBC Six Music, want to launch an indie stream. Should BBC be allowed to launch another radio station on BBC Six? As you know, it's the subject of much debate. It's another sort of commercial radio playbook, I suppose, launching spin-off stations. You could call it the history of Six Music, if you want to call it that. But I think, joking apart, I think there needs to be some sort of barriers and guardrails around what the BBC can do in terms of expansion. But in terms of this particular one, I think actually, if they're using archive, they're supporting new artists, they're talking about regional venues, I think that's a good thing for the industry.

26:41I'd like to see some of that maybe on some of their main channels as opposed to hidden away on sub-brands on BBC Sounds alone. So I think some of the main channels sometimes are erring into the kind of popularism, trying to chase ratings. and I think I'd like to see some of that support for new music, for venues, for new talent, maybe appearing to bigger audiences on some of their main channels. You used to run XFM. Do you look at this and go, it smells very much like the old XFM? Yeah, for sure. I mean, XFM was a bit of a trailblazer. You know, Six Music sort of was born out of the old XFM. So I think it's good.

27:14I think in the commercial market, I think there's a lot of innovation in the commercial market. XFM was an innovative product. Radio X is kind of taking on that mantle. So I think commercial radio is sort of showing the way from an innovation point of view. And if BBC want to pick some of those techniques up, then good for them. Okay. Thank you all for joining us. Time for a quick change of guests. But when we return, the view from the independent sector here in Glasgow. I'll see you in a sec.

27:42Welcome back. And now time for some telechat. I'm joined by Anne-Claire Christie, MD of Speccy Productions, and John Willers of the Development Network. Hello. Welcome. A lot of people have been up in Glasgow for the past couple of days for the Wonder Hub event. What's been going on? Well, so it's a get-together of, I think, mainly kind of execs and people who run smaller production companies in Glasgow. It's been set up by, I think, a company that are based in Birmingham, providing some kind of training to help people pivot and reorganise their businesses and their freelance work around basically what's happening in the industry at the moment.

28:22And it's been really, really helpful. It's been great. They've done a great job. John, have you had a good couple of days? Yeah, I think it's been really interesting. I think a lot of companies are kind of thinking about their next move in the sort of content ecosystem right now. And I think I haven't seen that many events like this, which are so focused on helping companies think outside their bubble and get out of their lane a little bit. And so there were courses today on like thumbnails and we had someone from Little Dot talking about how to monetize on YouTube. And these are all things that companies are thinking about right now, perhaps traditional TV companies that haven't really had to move into that world yet and are thinking about how the hell do I do this?

28:56So I think it's really good. I've been calling it the Mark Carney moment. Yeah, yeah. This shit is real. You better get your act together. That's good. So tell us about Specky. Specky Productions was set up in 2000. We are our kind of tagline is Real Lives in Focus. We do observational documentaries. We do a bit of kind of strong journalistic DNA as well. it has until you know I basically set it up um as a you know when BBC Scotland channel started and at that point there were quite a lot of like PDs setting up their own indies you know it was it was a it was a time of opportunity for you know the micro indie um and uh so I set up then I was able to kind of get commissions beyond the kind of BBC Scotland we worked with ITV channel four we've done some stuff for channel four current affairs we did a documentary about a Scottish child star called Lena Zaveroni that went network as well and we've done some brand funded stuff for ITV so yeah but you know it is a challenging time we are primarily a kind of you know single docs company so very much in the kind of micro indie space so yeah this you know obviously Wonder Hub was brilliant for me and it's you know it's great to actually speak to other people that's always quite nice when you're on a micro indie.

30:07And you were part of the Channel 4 Emerging Indie program. How was that? That was brilliant. You know, we just got to be so glad that, you know, we live in an ecosystem where we have PSBs who support micro-indies and I was teamed up with Janine Thomas at Channel 4 and I got my first Channel 4 commission. Well, it was the first fully, because I'd done co-productions where I teamed up with bigger indies like Firecrest. But yeah, so that was the first one I did and so yeah, eternally grateful to them and you know you know really enjoyed doing some proper current affairs as well so yeah we were talking to stv earlier about um stv studios about the sort of commissioning slow down you know it affects them on the on the macro scale uh affects all indies uh how have you found that that changing environment over the past 18 months uh well this shit is real yeah i mean like you know i think it's it's for micro indies you don't you're not a bellwether in quite the same way you know and I had quite a good year a couple of years ago last year has been tricky I think what I'm trying to do now I think because I had some good years that kind of took me over but now I'm really having to think about how I you know diversify and you know I really need to think very very carefully about not just doing another single and that that in itself that is a process that involves basically not getting a commission for a while because you're you're investing time in development and you're changing your pivoting so yeah it's been tricky but not without purpose.

31:37It's that crazy thing where there's never been so many opportunities, but trying to jump onto them takes real time. I mean, we often talk about like development is unfunded for telly, but it's very much unfunded when you're trying to launch a new element of your business. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, I guess it's about kind of sticking to what you know how to do whilst, you know, increasingly spending an increasing amount of time on things that, you know, that are new opportunities and just kind of thinking about it that way. You know, You know, you can't, you know, someone said today, actually, I wonder how pivoting actually just it comes from basketball or something.

32:09And it's about putting one foot on the ground while using your other to move around and find new opportunities. And that's like, yeah, that's what we have to do. We have to remember who we are, you know. We've had quite a few commissions about kind of lottery winners. Yes. Are there, when you've been making those, if you win the lottery, what should or shouldn't you do? What's been your best takeaway from that? Oh, well, so my favourite bit about the lottery films that we've done so far is we filmed in North East and the whole island basically won£3.7 million between them. But what was brilliant was just about their attitude.

32:46It was almost like a kind of anti-lottery film. One of the old guys said, so I said to him, what are you going to do with your£10 ,000? And he said, I think I'll buy a wheelbarrow. So there you go. You know, money's not everything, although it does help when you're doing development. It does, definitely. John, you run the development network. Tell us about that. So it's a strategic consultancy. We help companies shape and monetize IP. And it's sort of born out of a kind of big shift that I noticed happening in the industry in the last couple of years. Development teams are changing. The development landscape is changing.

33:19Companies are struggling to resource development the way they used to. And so the development network is really kind of a way of answering those problems or trying to answer those problems. So I come from a background in TV, unscripted development, coming out of an in-house role, what felt like entering a nuclear wilderness, what was left of the TV industry, speaking to companies that couldn't afford someone like me. But I noticed that there were companies that could afford someone like me for a few days a month. At the same time, I kept meeting incredible freelancers who used to be in-house, creative directors, ex-commissioners, former MDs even, who are now trying to navigate a sort of consultancy career.

34:03And so I set up the Development Network really as a way of bringing those two things together. So we help companies with development strategy. We help them with projects. We have a network of about 300 freelancers working across different genres, but also different ends of the industry. because I think everyone's thinking in some level of pivoting. The words already come up. And traditional TV companies are thinking about how do we get into podcasting, how do we get into digital. At the same time, you've got digital agencies speaking to brands who are thinking about how do we play with broadcasters.

34:32And so trying to bring the expertise that companies need to spend it when they need it to be a bit more targeted. So this is like a fractional development director. Kind of, yeah. And talk to me about the Time Team. Oh, yeah. So Time Team is one of our clients. It's actually a bit of a kind of personal homecoming for me because I sort of started out my career there back in the mid-naughties. You know, much-loved brand. I was on Channel 4 for 20 years. They have an extraordinary story, which I think kind of is a bit of a template for how legacy IP can be rebooted in some ways. About five years ago, the creator, Tim Taylor, had this idea of kind of rebooting the show.

35:15How do we do that? And they noticed that, you know, there's a lot of activity on old Time Team content that was on YouTube. And there's a feeling that there was still a community there. And it was during COVID. And, you know, people thinking about what am I going to do now? And they had this idea of setting up a crowdfunder. And, you know, they had like a target. I think it was like a six-month target, you know, which they hit in a handful of days. And that told them that there was something there. And so that's kind of snowballed now. and it's become a really, really impressive operation. You know, it's a very thriving YouTube community.

35:49But really the engine that powers that machine is Patreon, is the fans. And I think that goes to a lot of what we've been talking about over the last couple of days at Wonder Hub, which is about the importance of building community, accessing fandom, leveraging, you know, that network and convincing people essentially to put their hand in their pocket. And I think they, you know, they're a good case study for how IP that has brand recognition can be reborn in the digital age. And I think what people sometimes forget is that the fastest growing demographic on YouTube is the over 55s. And that feels like an audience that isn't massively being served.

36:26I was talking to Patreon actually this week and I said to them, who should I be looking at? Who's doing like a really good job of it? And they said Time Team, one of those. What is it that they've done there or what is it about that brand that has managed to activate people to put their hands in their pocket? I think there's a higher purpose, right? So it's not just about, I think when people pay to be part of the team, to be part of the club, yes, they're paying for additional content, they're paying for exclusive stuff, but really what they're paying for, I think, is to support the mission. And the mission is supporting archaeology and discovering about Britain's past.

37:02And it's such an authentic venture and the people who make it really are part of this community and really care. They're archaeologists themselves or they're TV producers who love telling these stories and they want to reach a bigger audience. And I think that authenticity is critical for that. Do they need broadcast? Have they ascended? I think they've proven the model works quite happily without broadcast, frankly. You know, I think who knows what the future holds, but I think the last five years I think it's been about proving the model. and I think the next five years is about growth and doing more and reaching more people and bringing the stories to more and funding more archaeology.

37:43You know I think in the past we were really we as ATV producers it was a really B2B business right your audience really was the commissioner that you were pitching to the commissioner's job was to then sort of filter the audience data that they were getting and pass that through to the producer I think we're moving much more now into a direct-to-consumer model. And I think the bit that a lot of producers have been missing is that audience feedback. And it's so fascinating working with Time Team because that connection with the audience, that real-term feedback is so important to shaping the content.

38:17And they'll literally pick sites based on what people are kind of responding to. And I think for producers, the opportunity to sort of move into the digital space, the real opportunity there is to start speaking directly to your audience and start to understand who you're speaking to. And that helps you define your place in the ecosystem, what you bring to the table that no one else is, who are you speaking to in a way that no one else is. Yeah, there's a kind of debatable argument about the value of having a brand as a company. Like, do you need that or is your content a brand in itself? Do you know what I mean?

38:53Who's the hero? Yeah. when we were obviously up in Scotland what do you think is special about the Scottish production community, what do you think Scotland has that maybe other parts of the country don't? Well I think Scotland has lots of things going for it that also can also, its biggest assets are also its downfalls I guess, I mean what it has obviously with it being a nation within the UK it has a Scottish screen, it has its own national broadcaster we have our own language, you know Gaelic has a language that has its own channel So there are lots of possibilities. You know, Scotland is on the international stage, a place that people, you know, they recognise, certainly in terms of its landscape.

39:33You know, I guess the downside for that, all of that, is sometimes, you know, when you're pitching to London, I think, you know, especially, you know, five or six years ago, maybe slightly less now that there's things like Highland Cops, but it used to say, well, it's not Yorkshire, is it? You know, it's like, you know, that Yorkshire was a place that people, English people recognised as, you know, as part of their country, if you know what I mean, where Scotland felt something a bit more alien. But on the other hand, you know, what you do have, you know, we do have, we obviously have the scenery and again, that's a problem because it's like, well, there's actually more to Scotland than the Highlands and the castles and the whisky, do you know what I mean?

40:09So, yeah, I mean, it certainly has a vibrant, we're very lucky to have a very vibrant production economy. You know, we've got five films at Sundance at the moment, and it's a huge amount of talent. It does have, it's far enough away from London to feel like it has its own identity. You can't travel to London, you can't commute. So there's a brilliant film festival in Glasgow, one in Edinburgh, there's an amazing comedy scene. There's a lot of stuff going for it. It's just sometimes it's that communication often that we feel, particularly in the TV industry, to London and making sure that they kind of understand where we're coming from.

40:52Yeah, that's one of the challenges. Where have we got to? Because sometimes broadcasters run a bit hot and cold with their commitment to regions. Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? Are we in a good place or an average place? We're in an increasingly better place, but I think we're getting to a place where producers are needing broadcasters less and less. And I think what's really interesting is that, you know, there's a confidence, I think, in the Scottish production sector that I think, you know, in terms of being rooted in the centre place, but actually having a very international perspective. And that goes to not just, you know, working with broadcasters, but working in digital.

41:25And there are lots of companies doing really, really exciting stuff up here. And I think the disconnect that Anne-Claire was kind of pointing to is like often traditional commissioners will look at a Scottish production company and go, okay, are you pitching something based in the Highlands? Like, no, actually we're here to make a big fact-ent show. And we have the skills and the expertise to do that. And I've been here, so I moved up from London, in 2011 so i've been here for a long long time and i've seen how the uh production sector here has shifted and grown exploded really in that time and there's an incredible base of um production talent up here supported by screen scotland and film city futures and there's you know it's a really thriving ecosystem and i think scotland the scotch production sector is really kind of punching above its weight it is interesting those five shows uh five films that are on at sundance don't have any network commitment at all.

42:12It's all Scottish screen money and international money, as far as I'm aware. It might be some people from Scotland, I'm not sure. We were talking about some English production companies that are making shows in Scotland. Obviously, we've seen traitors do quite well here, but are they using enough Scottish talent and enough Scottish crew? Do you think there's still some work to be done there, or are they doing an all right job? So my understanding of it is that I don't know if there's been a huge increase in the amount of Scottish people involved in the traitors. I mean, it's a very difficult subject.

42:42You know, the traitors is brilliant. We all should be amazingly proud of that that's coming out of Britain and how amazingly well it's doing. So I find it quite hard to kind of negotiate all of that because I do feel it'd be great if there was a bit more of a talent, that there was a kind of ladder that we could go up because there is a perception that that's not what Scotland does, we don't know how to do it. So if there could be more people involved in being brought up and trained in the traitors, that would obviously. I think it'd be good for everyone, you know. But, you know, I don't want to criticise the show.

43:13The show's amazing, you know. It's like, and, you know, we should be proud of it. John? I agree. No, I think it's a really difficult balance to strike, isn't it? Because when, you know, someone like the BBC puts so much money into a show like that, it's too big to fail. And the risk, the appetite for risk, I think, across the board and everything is like zero. And so they just need to know it's going to work. And I think, you know, perhaps the slight short-sightedness is to go, okay well there just aren't enough people in Scotland to do that kind of thing and okay fine if that's how you feel but then you need to change that you need to be part of the solution as well so if you're going to make the show and you're going to bus a load of people up how about next time you train people up so that you're not bussing quite as many people up and eventually that show can be self-sufficient and shows like it by the way can then be produced up here with that expertise that's been learned on something like that.

44:01I think there is a training course isn't there at the TRC for Factentials. Yeah. You know, there are some moves in the right direction on that front, yeah. Well, lovely to see you both. Thanks for having us up here. And we'll look to see you soon. Right, back to London in a moment to pick up on all the latest RAJAR data. We'll see you in a sec.

44:30And via the magic of editing, we're back in our London. and via the magic of editing we're back in london and back at pod shop studios where we record the media club every week and they support the making of this show each studio has its own distinct look and feel and now two studio locations designed to suit different budgets and needs all professionally designed and fully equipped for broadcast quality video recording check out the whole range at podshop online.co.uk and they're offering media club listeners 25 off their first booking so you can experience it for yourself. Just use the code MEDIACLUB for 25 % off at podshoponline.co.uk.

45:09Hello Media Club listeners, Patrick here from Podcast Discovery, the podcast marketing company, where this week we've been thinking about Patreon. The creator subscription platform can be a brilliant way for podcasters to connect with their most loyal fans, offer them additional content, and receive additional support for their trouble. Done right and at scale, it can be an appealing alternative to the vagaries of the ad market. Want to know how it all works? Get in touch at podcastdiscovery.com. That's podcastdiscovery.com. Welcome back to our London HQ. Here's some stories we've been discussing in the club this week.

45:45The Washington Post have announced major layoffs. They did that on Wednesday, slashing almost a third of its 2 ,500 staff. That's according to The Guardian. The sports desk is no more, with a vastly shrunk international operation also part of the new strategy. Most notably the correspondent tasked with covering Amazon, whose founder, of course, operates the paper. Funny that. Skies announced its cast for Saturday Night Live. The UK pilot season launches in March with 11 relatively unknown comics. I think we recognised about four of them, which I think is a good balance. I think it's the right thing to do.

46:19And in other news, no one was expecting Amazon's show The Grand Tour to continue after Clarkson Hammond and May left the show, but the platform selected two YouTube motoring presenters and train spotter Francois Bourgeois, I think that's how you say it, to front the new series. Links to all of our stories available on our weekly sub stack. Sign up for free at themediaclub.com. You'll also get our newsletter brief telling you what's been happening in all the other media podcasts. Okay, on this Rajar special of the Media Club, it's in partnership with Radio Experts, the audio advertising specialist with a sound perspective.

46:56And Adam Bowie joins me. Hi, Adam. Hey, Matt. How are you doing? I'm very good. Thank you. So we've just had a radar. Interesting. I thought a lot of a lot of red ink on the page, a lot of people going down. Yeah, I mean, overall, radio has gone down a bit. It's still feels like last time I was here, I was mentioned a billion hours. It's still over a billion hours. I think maybe another number to watch is the average number of hours, which is still above 20 a week. But it feels 20.3 or something in the minute. You know, I don't know, 20 years ago, it would have been 24, for example. So that's going to slip below 20 because what it feels like is there's still listeners to radio, but they're just listening less because there's more other stuff to do.

47:39I mean, total reach, we always had 90 percent and it's sort of gradually 89, 80, 86. 86, yeah. I mean, it's still a lot, but it's not, you know, there are people who don't listen to the radio. And you might find one of them now, whereas in the past it was a little bit harder to find people who didn't listen to any radio. So let's go through some of the groups. Let's start with the big public service one. How did the BBC do? I'd say mixed. Radio One, not too great, I think. Maybe in some of the demos they've done a little bit better. but that's the most challenged demo anyway. So I think, you know, mix there.

48:21Radio 2, a bit better. You know, it's still not straightforward and the numbers bounce around a bit, but, you know, Radio 2 is still solid. It's obviously by far the biggest station in the country. Then you get into Radio 3 had a good quarter. Radio 4 also did well. Obviously, there's no shortage of news at the moment, but we haven't even gotten to January where the news really seemed to kick off. Five Live, maybe not so much Reach, but some of the shows and some of the hours did pretty well there. Yeah, is that partly premiership related? Yeah, I hypothesise that. I think there's more football, a bit like Sky's got more football on TV.

48:57There's more football on the radio. So, you know, if you want to listen to your team, there's a bit more. And Talk Sport has the same thing. Both groups have got more football than they used to. Yeah, and Six Music had a bit of a tough quarter. Yeah. An outlier quarter. I think it's an outlier. I think you just look at previous ones, it just feels like, you know, I'm not going to blame the methodology, but some quarters you don't quite find the same number of listeners. And I would be surprised if it doesn't sort of perk back up next quarter. We were mentioning earlier in the show that Keen 6 Music seems to have a spinoff, kind of XFM Gold.

49:30Is that too mean to call it that? Yeah. I mean, I think, look, that's the way you gain audiences these days. I mean, commercial radio has done this brilliantly. and BBC maybe is fighting a little bit more with one hand tied at home's back, can't necessarily put them on DAB. Well, it has to go through, even to get on sounds, they have to go through a process. But, you know, that's how you compete with Spotify. You know, do I, if I want to hear 80s music, do I hit absolutely 80s, heart 80s, or do I hit an 80s compilation on Spotify or whatever? And it's the same for indie music and, you know, coming from a brand you trust and so on, great.

50:05And also, to be fair, I think not everyone just wants to sit around making playlists and so on. Although maybe the six music would make playlists. Okay. Commercial radio camp. Commercial radio, a fair few years ago, it suddenly switched from BBC having the larger share to commercial radio, having the larger share. They've maintained that. Yeah, they have. And they've maintained it healthfully. It used to be, you know, BBC would have, would do better on one side, reach and then commercial radio on ours and so on. But no, probably in the fundamentals, we look at it, it's still drifting a little bit down.

50:41We've just talked about the overall listening being down a bit. But I'd say, you know, in general terms, not bad and they've done the, you know, I think that's driven by the growth of these sort of, you know, vast number of digital offshoots. If you're throwing a dart, much more likely to hit a commercial station than you are a BBC station? Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, I live in London now. If you read to a re-scan now, the number of stations, I mean, you know, I'm amazed my slightly elderly Roberts in my kitchen will allow that many stations in this memory. Yeah. Okay, commercial radio groups, global?

51:22You know, there's hits and misses within each of them. I think the star performer says LBC. I think LBC's done great. I think it's a record reach for them, certainly, and the sort of current guy, certainly for their main brand. So they're doing well in both reach and in hours? They're doing well in both reach and hours. So always that people who like LBC listen to it a lot, so you get it on Radio 4. Yeah. What's kind of pushing them on? Why are they doing so well? I mean, I think there's definitely this whole thing of the kind of slightly more authored voices. You know, LBC of the, you know, certainly more than Radio 4, is the radio version of listening to a Reste's podcast or something like that where James O 'Brien or whatever, you know what his take is going to be on a particular subject of the day.

52:12And audiences do like that. We see that across multiple media. And Radio 4 can't really do that and doesn't want to do that. That's not what it's there for. That works. and, you know, they do it at the right level. I mean, it's not insanely populist, but it's not, you know, it's quite mid-market. When they started doing it, it was like, oh my God, can you believe how right-wing or left-wing LBC is? And then compared to GB News and the chatter online, it's incredibly Daily Mail moderate. Yeah, no, absolutely. So, you know, go back a few years, I'm old enough to remember, you know, it's a mid-market paper.

52:50but it has the sales what would have been the sales of a mid-market paper in those days. So Heart Total Heart brand is above Radio 2 which I know annoys all the people at Radio 2 because Global keeps saying Heart's bigger than Radio 2 and it's like 11 radio stations are bigger than Radio 2 That's right. I think Heart itself it's a little bit mixed, sort of kind of up on the quarter down on the ear and reach but they've done better of ours And, you know, yes, as you say, there's a lot of heart spin off stations now, and I'm sure they've got several more ready to go if they need to. Smooth? They've had some good quarters recently.

53:30It feels like they've fallen a little bit back. And I suppose Greatest Hits Radio would be a decent sized competitor for them? I always feel Smooth is the brand that is slightly forgotten of, maybe not by Global, but I think, you know, it doesn't get the excitement that a capital or a heart gets, I think. Well, let's go on to Bauer. Greatest Hits was sort of their big dream and it was doing incredibly well. Yeah. It's still doing well, but it's eased off a little bit. Yeah, there have been a couple of quarters now that they've dipped away. and so there was a slightly could be seen as misleading underlying thing that they were rebranded they didn't just rebrand everything at once they rebranded a few and they rebranded a few more and uh about getting nerdy and well this is a nerdy section i'll get into it there's six month waiting all this kind of stuff which means that you're not just looking at the most frequent three months you're looking at the most frequent six months and it kind of overlaps each quarter so at some point that growth was going to come to an end but i would have maybe expected to flatten out rather than carry on and and they've lost their chunk and i i i couldn't tell you exactly what that is um and that you know and that includes ken bruce you know his his numbers are down and um still the biggest show on commercial radio yeah yeah yeah he's still massive and the station is look don't get me wrong it's not going anywhere and um but it's it's surprising and i'm not quite sure what the underlying issues might be hits radio uh the sister station so this used to be a lot of the what would like the local fm radio stations that all now take a feed from london i was looking at the england numbers uh scotland they do something something different and england's taken quite a hit since they made all the changes they've lost sort of a quarter of the hours it's pretty significant it is and i think so again this is one of the things where those shows all changed back last summer, back in June.

55:29And because of the six-month thing I'm talking about, it's only really now that I think it's fully come to show. And they were big shows, sometimes market-leading shows, that went. I'm sure I've done the sums and it still makes sense for them, but they've taken a hit. Yeah, sorry, no pun intended. And finally, News UK? TalkSport, great. TalkSport's doing absolutely fine. They've had a good quarter. I think the rest of the sort of portfolio, not so much. Times Radio had a bit of a down quarter this time around. I saw today there's some sort of tweaks in the schedule for weekends. The big schedule change have been over at Virgin.

56:12Virgin had a pretty poor quarter. I don't think there's any two ways about it. I mean, you've got to be a little bit careful. You'll get double digit percentages on small numbers. Doesn't necessarily represent that much people. and it's notable that they've basically recast their entire schedule since the start of the year. It's like 1.1 million reach, which is in the post-Chris Evans time, that's poor. It is, and I think that station, I wouldn't like to guess how the finances work behind that because it feels tough. Have you seen the video stuff they're doing to TFI Friday? Yeah, it's a very, I mean, it does look like they've dressed the studio as TFI Friday.

56:53They've basically recreated the desk of TFI. I mean, it looks great. I mean, you know, they're on the river and they used to be on the river, just a different part of the River Thames further up in Hammersmith. Yeah, I mean, leaning into that heavily, you know, I don't know if that works or not. I mean, I think that's, I mean, it's interesting. It was 20 years ago. yeah and i think i mean look you know if you lean heavily into those people who are sort of you know i worked there i did go to tfi friday i know what that studio looks like did you sit in the bar uh one time yes one time i was in the bar yeah yeah yeah i'm not i'm not sure about that i think you know some people have left that part of their lives yeah i thought the interesting bit was chris seems much happier to embrace all of that like i know when he started he wasn't too keen on doing video in the studios and he seems to be a bit more on it with the marketing because he may be seeing how the numbers are going and knows that if he wants to stay on that gravy train yeah no no i mean you've got a look as i can't have to tell everyone you know you have to do video now right you can't just you know there's you can do it badly and you can do it in such a way that you forget about the audio or the roots of it you know if you're doing a radio show remember it's a radio show first and foremost um but you know it they've not had a bad social game in the past and but it did look a bit messy in the past um because that he still gets some decent guests you know he he has a name and they want to talk to him so so therefore having something that you can make that much more shareable is a smart move and uh you know i'll give them their correct they've you know um news uk have always invested in things like that their studios do look great all their studios look excellent i don't know that the the money that they make a lot of money from the youtube channels for times radio and talk radio and talk sport like it's a big chunk of the business it's not like an extra lovely nice to have and i think they're probably doing the best out of all the radio groups even some of the bigger ones at all of that which is nothing to be sniffed at Yeah, and I mean, they've got the nature of their stations lend to it.

59:06I think, you know, they do have some personalities, you know, obviously with all their speech services and, you know, absolutely lean into that. You know, you can look at sort of GB News going the other way, becoming a radio station or a TV station. It's like you might as well make yourself as multimedia as possible. Okay, right. Just enough time for the Audio Network Media Quiz. more media stories connected by one theme and then shoehorned into a format of an existing media property uh this week it's called media master so ken bruce has pop master we talked about him earlier but what if instead of pop music our guest has to answer questions about the week's media news to become media master okay you're on your own this week so this is Yeah, yeah, yeah.

59:51It would be better than this sort of pop music anyway. Once again, Alex, Audio Network has taken that Poptastic Brief from producer Matt and created a playlist of music to score today's game and get us in the mood. Adam, you'll have 20 seconds to answer each question. It's multiple choice. And if you're watching at home on YouTube, you can play along as well. There's a new feature. We haven't uploaded it yet, so God knows if it will work. But why not try and play along with the quiz on our YouTube channel? Right. Let's play Media Master.

1:00:45Media Master with Matt Deegan. The search is on for the next BBC Director General, but according to The Guardian, which former DG was sounded out about a possible return? Was it Greg Dyke, Michael Grade, Mark Thompson or George Entwistle? That was Mark Thompson. Yes, his current employer said that he remains fully committed to CNN. OK, question two. Comedians Ellis James and John Robbins have formed a new podcast network with producer Dave Masterman, putting them in control of their five live show as well as the socially distanced sports bar. And how do you cope? What is the name of their new company?

1:01:25Is it Vibe, Hot Chat, Significant or The Great Reset? It's significant because there are a lot of punny headlines that came off that press release. It is significant. That's right. Hope you got that at home. And OK, final question. ITV have announced an innovation for their upcoming Six Nations coverage. Is it in-game advertising, AI commentary, commentator avatars or dramatic incidental music for conversions? I mean, some of those are probably a step away from behind an Amazon Prime red button. But it's in-game advertising, which I'm very interested to see how that works. Yes, it is in-game advertising.

1:02:10There's more of that. We were talking earlier. We didn't think it was allowed, but obviously it is allowed. And I did see a comment saying, honestly, there's so many gaps in rugby, you could squeeze many more adverts in and we'd miss absolutely nothing. Well, that's it. I think that makes you a media master. As your prize, maybe you can go and find some in-quiz advertising, maybe around the on-screen graphics. If you played at home and it worked, well done. That's what I'll say. Maybe we'll try again next week. We'll have a look at the results. Well, that's it. My thanks to Adam Bowie and all of our guests up in Glasgow as well.

1:02:41Thanks to Up Next Studios who hosted us. He did an amazing job. And also thanks to Alex at Audio Network for supplying today's music. Remember, Audio Network can do that for you as well. Just head to audionetwork.com or click the link in our show notes. Adam, where can people keep up with your work? Keep up with me at adambowie.com or find me on LinkedIn. Yes, adambowie.com for the full Rage I analysis. For the full Rage I analysis. I'm Matt Deegan. The producer is Matt Hill. It was a Rethink Audio production with video support from Podcast Discovery. I'll see you next week.

1:03:25So, retrospectors, what historical events are we ticking off on this week's run of Today in History? On Monday, the anniversary of the treason scandal that divided France. On Tuesday, we explain how America fell in love with ice rinks. On Wednesday, they didn't come from Harlem and they didn't travel the world, but the Harlem Globetrotters still broke the mould. On Thursday, Britain's first black Member of Parliament, who was surprisingly pro-slavery. And on Friday, long before the national mourning for Princess Diana, the nation stopped for Lord Nelson's funeral. That's Today in History with The Retrospectives.

1:03:5710 minutes each weekday, wherever you get your podcasts.