Should YouTube Be Regulated?

0:00Right, it's time for our annual listener survey. If you can spare five minutes to share your opinions on the show, not only will you help shape the future of the Media Club, but one lucky respondent will win a£50 John Lewis voucher. Do it now. There's a link in the show notes or at themediaclub.com. Hello, welcome to Media Club. I'm Matt Deegan and it's a special show because we're here at the Edinburgh TV Festival. We're going to be talking about whether YouTube is the future for all of us. We'll be catching up about what Matt Britton, the new BBC Director General, had to say. And also talking to some of our Media Club friends, some bosses from some indies, as well as some super massive indies as well too.

0:43And generally getting the vibe of what's happening. Because here, live from Edinburgh, it's the Media Club. The festival kicked off with YouTube's boss, Pedro Pina, talking about the platform. why he'd like all of us broadcasters on it to join forces with creators. But one thing he was very keen that didn't happen was that it gets regulated. Lots of discussion in the government green paper about prominence for public broadcasting on YouTube. Let's have a clip of what he said. Some in the industry are proposing forced prominence for public service media, which could put future partnerships in jeopardy.

1:23I share the concerns expressed about democracy and the public interests. But YouTube is a democracy by definition. A democracy of cultural production. Anyone can find an audience. Forced prominence would impair the public interest by unfairly shifting focus from independent creators and production companies and by recommending that all our viewers watch the same things disregarding personal taste. If this becomes law, many UK-based creators and production companies will see their livelihoods threatened. TV critic Scott Bryan and Biscuit Jim's Jeff Jean are here. Hello both. Hello. We're very chirpy on a Friday morning, aren't we?

2:07I'm just opening a can of Iron Room, as we speak. Good, very on brand. Thank you. It's been a busy few days. Pedro's McTaggart, Jeff, what did you think? Well, for full disclosure, I watched it on a streaming platform. YouTube. It was, actually, yeah. I was quite disappointed when he got to the end, he didn't ask me to like it. I imagine it was different in the room. I thought it was interesting. I thought we were only ever 30 seconds away from Video Didn't Kill the Radio Star, which seemed to be the sort of theme through the first half of the speech. but it's difficult at McTaggart because you're never quite sure who it's for.

2:54I don't think for the people in the room there was necessarily anything new. So it does feel like it's slightly for tomorrow's papers more than it was for everybody in the room. Scott? Yeah, I mean, I find that McTaggart is very much a reflection of where we are in the TV industry and I think the whole speech to me was basically like, hiya, we're not the enemy. We're not here to kill you. we're not here to kill the tv industry please like us and um i'm not entirely sure whether it worked i mean one thing that i've had with a lot of tv producers and makers and execs has been a real sense of nervousness not just because of the consolidation of the industry you know every session is more or less been around being bought by one or buying another um or cuts um i think a lot of it is also kind of a general fear that the distribution platform on youtube is not as favorable financially as what it would have been if you went directly to a broadcaster or a streamer and you know the economics are generally changing but everyone has kind of been forced into this new distribution model because that's where the audiences are and that's where the hype is but i think i don't think it changed anyone's mind i don't think the speech changed anyone's mind at I thought it was one thing he sort of was saying was, please no regulation, because just make good stuff and it'll reach audiences.

4:16You don't need any of that nasty regulation. Our algorithm's absolutely fine. Yeah, there's a bit of putting out those fires before they really take effect. Because that's probably going to happen. Like, that's in the green paper. We see prominence regulation for radio. Telly had it on EPGs. No one at our end is thinking that's a bad thing, are we?

4:39No, because it puts us in front of audiences, and that's ultimately what we all want. I think it's sort of interesting. There's a lot of focus on programmes pre-commissioned. If you can't get your idea commissioned, just come and make it on YouTube anyway. I think that was very much the theme of last year's festival. This year, there's a bit more of once you're successful, why don't you jump ship and come to YouTube? Very much the Amal Rajan route. and then sort of nothing in the middle of those two things i think that's still the preserve of television um so that that kind of didn't really get addressed much at all and there's also i think a lot about a lot about youtube is saying oh we are a democracy and you know it's the democratization of a platform and you're sort of thinking yeah but you're a profit-making company like i get i get that anyone can upload anything but there has been a real difference of opinions in regards to the fact that hang on how can the BBC have the same visibility as a very successful creator for a billion pound organisation I think that was raised up but then Matt Britton coming up with his iPlayer 2.0 of this We can be an open player too We can be an open player but then you're thinking what the nightmare for a public service organisation to be undergoing that in terms of editorial guidelines when to keep their own programs exactly but but i think i think you know even if it doesn't come to fruition and it does feel at one point i think it is a w1a episode where they make they make like bbcu or something and it all bbc me bbc me so so um yeah but but but in a way of of i think spinning that and also i think it was the bbc setting up its stall kind of against youtube a little bit you know it was interesting having matt britain session the next day basically firing a little bit back at youtube but about about their role and basically saying it's not the be all and end all here and you know it has been obviously because of the negative effects that's happening within the tv industry i think quite um uh you know it's been i think some people have been leaving some sessions feeling a little bit sad because they're not sure where things are going to be heading but but with his session even though a lot of it was dominated by cuts i think people were thinking okay actually there's a bit of a vision here well let's go on to matt in a sec talking about the changing nature of television uh i caught up with fenton bailey uh who runs world of wonder behind rupaul's drag race and loads of other shows uh he had this to say i kind of look at edinburgh a bit as titanique have you seen titanique oh my god titanique the story of titanic roughly loosely But the Titanic hits the iceberg and then the iceberg bitch comes on board and makes the remaining people on the boat lip sync for their lifeboat.

7:33Right. Yes. That is what is happening at Edinburgh. These massive media players are lip syncing for their lifeboat. No innovation. It's all consolidation. Chasing after the latest thing, whether it's vertical dramas or creator culture. But fundamentally, this is an oops moment. The ship, HMS Media, has been split in two. And it's sinking. If we extend that metaphor, is that there's a selection of islands to hop onto on the way. Is there salvation for parts of that group? Maybe. There aren't enough lifeboats, just like on the Titanic. And so not everyone's going to make it through. And I'm, by the way, I'm not sitting on an island myself.

8:23I feel this anxiety because, look, what's happened is media, I think, when you started and I started, was a precious commodity. Not everyone could work in it. And so you work like how to get in it and were horribly abused probably while climbing up. But then also there was an audience for it because there was a limited supply. simple fact is media now is essentially free it's like the oxygen everybody's making it everybody's doing it you just don't need these great ocean going liners to make it that doesn't mean they're irrelevant because the sports and those premium things and events that is stuff but the audience is fragmenting and the paradox is you know i wrote this book screen age about how TV's changed all our lives.

9:19And I realise now that is a history book in the sense that that chapter, that is over, yet we are watching more on our screens than ever before. And what I think that means, we're going to be watching even more. But what that doesn't mean is it's going to be a return for Channel 4 to the glory days or BBC. It just isn't. Lovely metaphor from Fenton Bailey there, Jeff. Yes. I haven't had much sleep. because I spent most of the evening trying to come up with a different musicals metaphor. I think I got there in the end. The producers was the obvious route. Didn't go there. Went with Wicked in the end.

9:56Went with Wicked. Everybody is obsessed with being popular, which I think works. There is this kind of weird middle-aged man who everybody inexplicably worships. Let's call him the Wizard of Lineker. And then somebody new arrives on the scene and everybody is very suspicious of this new thing which looks a bit different but in the end they actually grow to accept them. So I think that's as close as I got with a musical's metaphor. That's good, that's good. So are you less concerned about a Titanic-style disaster? Are you lip-syncing for your lifeboats? I'm not lip-syncing for my lifeboat. I've spent long enough on an Edinburgh stage this weekend.

10:36I've no intention of going back there. but what I do think the kind of rearranging the deck chairs metaphor I think is somewhat true and without taking this down a sort of serious cul-de-sac for too long there are a lot of things that aren't talked about at the Edinburgh Festival and that's the rearranging of the deck chairs moment I think the huge swathes of the freelance industry that are currently not in employment are leaving the industry I haven't really heard that talked about across three days of programming. So there are definitely head-in-the-sand moments. And, yeah, if that's a sinking industry, then maybe that is a good metaphor.

11:23I mean, Scott, there's a lot of chat from, like, super mega indies. Yeah. There isn't much from the smaller ones. Maybe there's not many small ones left. I heard Faraz Osman the other day talking about the need to maybe add in quotas for true independent shows maybe look at some unscripted, allocate that to people are we just in a world of megacorps? I mean it does feel like we are in a period of consolidation and that will no doubt have an impact and yes the issues facing freelancers at the moment has been this long-standing issue and I think there's this concern that it's not going to get better.

12:02And that is truly depressing because I think a lot of where the creativity in TV comes from sometimes comes from these small indies who look at a programme a little bit differently and maybe are in a different part of the country and actually fulfil the remit that a lot of these broadcasters and streamers keep saying that they're trying to make in the first place. I am always hopeful. Like, not purposefully so. I just think I'm optimistic. and I think like one thing that that comes out is that yes tv is going through the motion still yes linear tv is still declining but our screen use is still still up there I mean arguably too much of it because we're watching one thing whilst watching another and I think there is now I think the wall is coming down finally between creators and old established talent I think for ages there was this mentality of oh you know you go over there you do your young thing and only occasionally and now you're starting to have established broadcasters crossing into YouTube but also you can have creators on established shows and they don't bring the audience necessarily with them but people realize oh my word it's such an amazing talent incubator and these people are incredibly you know they know how to do it they they know how to play the system and also like they are ambitious and the gateway the barriers for them I think have gone down because they've got TikTok and social media that they can go and use so so I think whilst indies and production company and the people who actually make the programs are still still struggling i think actually the talent and the stuffiness have gone down a little bit it's something that matt britton touched on i thought he did a great session very self-assured nearly half of it was questions from the audience not through an ipad but from people kind of standing up and challenging him yeah um if i worked for the bbc i'd be pretty pleased he was my new boss yeah it's the first time i've i've seen him you know in the flesh as it were i've seen a couple of the kind of town halls early on at the bbc but he's an incredibly impressive individual in that setting um you know the bbc needs a politician as much as it needs a leader at the moment and he felt extremely assured on that front i think it was you know he had all the great hallmarks you know if he didn't know the answer he was really quick to just say look i'll i'll meet you afterwards and uh we can discuss that further um i yeah i thought it was in it and you know great wit which to win over a room actually i thought when you know when somebody called him tim accidentally i tweeted when he said um uh news night is not getting um cancelled he called that nonsense i tweeted well i put on blue sky like Tim Davies says that there's no and then people say wow he's coming back out to say it's all non and they're like oh oh oh okay fine different white man yeah all of the TV drinking my iron brew obviously he didn't have a huge amount to say he didn't have to defend any of his own decisions so fairly fortunate position to be in we're in this period before his first crisis not saying it's inevitable but I think because under Tim Davies there were so many and of course there's still some outstanding issues and regarding to Trump and so forth.

15:15So I think the first challenge will obviously be when something lands in his intray that he might not have any responsibility for, and that will be his first test about whether the BBC will be able to get on top of it, as we would hope. Yes, and considering he's had, what is it, 103 days as of today without any of Kirstie's ADSSs. Why does it feel like there's somebody at the front of the BBC putting a number onto a sign? someone came on the show and said the thing that gets rid of director generals is snipers it's the thing you least expect that comes from the side so he's trying to escape one of those but really I thought if his mission yesterday was to win over the room I think mission accomplished before we go any gossip facts anything you've learned anything you're excited by anything you liked seeing any new shows coming up that you want well this is because i've been in the washing machine of hosting so many things it's harder i find to go and actually go around and actually see shows i thought like actually execs were not reading as much of a press release this year i think there was a lot more interaction with the audience naturally um some sort of sense about where the industry is heading because sometimes it can feel, by no fault of Edinburgh, like you're just having a press release.

16:44And that is not the case. They've really worked now to try to, so that the execs really know what they are here for, which I think is fantastic. Can I mention one sort of new stream to the festival this year, which was the sort of group commissioner briefings and then meet and greets afterwards, which I think people have been asking for more time with commissioners. and actually, you know, they were spread across the three days and I thought they were really useful. I don't know if you were allowed in those. They did say in the programme, really involved, no press allowed in these meetings. But it was, yeah, they were really useful, really honest discussions of what they do and don't want.

17:24I mean, unsurprisingly, what they do want is the next big thing and we'll know it when we see it. But I thought they were a really good addition to the last Edinburgh. it yeah um there was some good meeting greet sessions uh i went to a netflix one and there were eight netflix commissioners there had a room of 100 people and they could go and chat to them which i thought was brave of them to do but hopefully they got something out of it as well uh thank you both scott you obviously just came here from uh manchester yeah where your new book has been released yes i've got a book called i've got a book called out now it isn't out yet it's out next thursday the 3rd of um september and i was at c was seen as like a fantastic um uh LGBTQ plus TV and film festival that they do that will be in Manchester next year at the same time as the TV festival.

18:07So I think it's amazing to consolidate the trip so it's actually in one ideal location. But Out Now is a little exploration into modern queer TV. It's not a history book. It's kind of looking at the role, the central role that TV has in shape in all of our lives, particularly if you sort of grew up in the sticks where the kind of visibility was so little. So it's all about how TV, I think, has such a fundamental role in shaping our young lives, particularly if you grew up in that era before the internet took hold, which in Dorset where I grew up was 2018. You can pre-order out now. Out now. Not yet.

18:50No, well, we've talked a lot about the changing nature of broadcasting. What hasn't been talked about much is the license fee and what's going to happen with the BBC. I thought it might be fun to write something about this and suggest something new. So I've created a probably overlong document called Public Media 2028. It talks about lots of different things you could do with the BBC and how you could fund it. I thought it might be fun to get someone to challenge me on it and say it was all wrong. So I asked Jake Cantor from Deadline and the first thing I talked about was How about taking BBC News, turning it into a Scott Trust-style funded organisation with 20 billion of cash to try and get it out of the government and regular media's hands?

19:39I think asking the BBC to surrender BBC News is a bit like asking the BBC to sign its own death warrant. I just don't think that's going to happen. It's absolutely fundamental to what the BBC does. The BBC will absolutely want to keep hold of it. And I don't think you solve the problem. It will still be attacked by right-wing media because it will be considered to be a massive market intervention. All the questions around impartiality and all the controversies that dog BBC News will persist, I think, regardless of whose hands it sits in. So I think this is the challenge, to not think about the BBC as a single model.

20:23so if you've got the BBC being worried about this I'm less worried about the BBC being worried about it because I think we need to try and rethink how those things fit together so if you have that news operation, I think the other things you could separate out is local I think it's a key government initiative particularly in Burnham Land local radio regional telly, try and give that some of its own ownership a public cooperation for that And then the third bit of kind of public value-ness is culture and kids. Create something that supports Radio 3 and CBBC and CBBC. And think about that separately.

21:02And kind of all those three things being the very, very public value elements of what the BBC does. And maybe separate that away from some of the entertainment side. The thing I love about what you're talking about here, these are big ideas. and there is a complete absence of some radical thinking in these discussions at the moment. The government is talking about, like, evolving the licence fee. That seems to be the preferred route. And the BBC itself has said that's probably not good enough. And what I would like to hear more from the BBC is some of these radical ideas. I mean, they're not going to talk about carving off some of their own operations.

21:46It's just not going to happen. but ministers should be talking about these things and I just don't understand why it's not happening. So maybe your tome can spark some of these conversations. I know Amal Rajan has got some thoughts himself which he's going to sketch out at the festival as well. So my final bit, I'm talking about license fee there. So I think there's actually a great opportunity to put together what the BBC does around drama, comedy, entertainment and combine it with some other things. Let's combine it with UK TV, hugely successful operation already owned by the BBC. let's put in channel 4 it has to evolve itself and we're rolling to BBC Studios so we'll create what will kind of be the only British standing broadcast operation left we've got kind of Comcast and ITV now, we've got Paramount for channel 5 and we'll say hey that's not going to be licensed fee funded anymore it's going to be subscription we'll do a Disney Plus style 7 quid with ads 15 quid all you can eat and go, actually, it's a£2 billion operation.

22:48Let's set it off for the future rather than worry about people moaning about the licence fee. Yeah, I think of all the things that you've just mentioned, I think that's probably got more legs than the rest, purely because I think some of these discussions are happening, actually. It's very clear that Channel 4 and the BBC are going to have to work more closely. Both Matt Britton and Priya Dogra have come in with sort of fresh eyes and fresh ideas and are clearly talking about collaboration, both publicly and privately, as far as I understand. Quite what that looks like. I don't know whether that means the BBC kind of inhales Channel 4 or whether they do things a bit more tentatively initially, strike commercial partnerships, host Channel 4 on iPlayer.

23:38I think some of those things will happen. I guess Channel 4's got some power in there, runs a big advertising operation it's going to be important now that sky absorb itv they already rep uk tv which the bbc own there's something there about about them all working much more closely together it has to happen i think i think it's increasingly where the industry conversation is going when you know this whole festival has kind of been in the shadow of youtube uh you look at a player like channel four it looks increasingly small and isolated um called it subscale yeah i mean subscale is a pretty chastening phrase for a bbc director general to use about channel 4 but it's probably accurate unfortunately and channel 4 will privately they will admit to you that it is harder for them to land hits partly because um even when they've got great shows audiences are not necessarily finding those shows and coming to them in their droves that's a major problem and i think having channel 4 shows on iPlayer would go some way to fixing that um this is going to be tricky and difficult and um it will involve kind of surrendering territory that broadcasters have carefully kept hold of for literally decades so unpicking that will be tricky but I think these are necessary conversations and I am disappointed that we are not hearing more of it this week.

25:14I agree I agree and I don't want to think they're having some good government conversations behind closed doors and you know we're not privy to that. Maybe but they should be happening in public they should be happening here rather than us talking about YouTube I mean look YouTube is important but there is absolutely very little the industry can do to influence YouTube's decision making, influence YouTube's algorithm, change the economics of making content work on YouTube. What we can control is the health of the public service broadcasters and the way that interacts with our hugely successful production sector.

25:48Thank you, Jake. And if you want to have a look at what we've been talking about there, you can read the full report at mattdeegan.com and it can get interactive. I talked about some numbers there. You can move some sliders. You can look at different subscription rates. You can look at different income. And what would that look like for BBC of tomorrow? Why does the same news story sound completely different depending on where you read it? That confusion is exactly what Ground News was built to solve. It's an app and website that compares news coverage, allowing you to see how each story is framed across the political spectrum and the world.

26:21For the recent story about the U.S. signing the Memorandum of Understanding with Iran, Their vantage plan shows us that right-leaning Daily Express framed it as a historic peace deal, while left-leaning NPR notes it resulted in the president's approval hitting record lows, plus data like each publication's source of funding and a factuality rating. The Nobel Peace Center even called Ground News an excellent way to stay informed, avoid echo chambers, and expand your worldview. Get 40 % off by going to ground.news slash 2026. That's ground.news slash 2026. Again, ground.news slash 2026.

27:22a busy busy time what what's happening really busy to the company and why do you still support yeah i mean i think everything's obviously changing quite a lot the industry's in a very transitional period it's lined up very nicely that it's 50 and 25 which is lovely um but yeah we've been supporting it for 10 years we're really well known in the tv industry so i think it's important that we're still here representing ourselves we're actually the biggest employer are buying the BBC of Musicians in the UK. We're very focused on human-led creation, which I think everyone here, it's a very important thing too as well.

27:58So that's really important for us. I've seen lots of chat at the festival, streamers, YouTube, future PSB, social. I mean, it's content in different places. And I guess you guys have to keep up with what your customers want. And I suppose you've got your suppliers from the musicians and all of those and making sure that they can get more work in more places. Yeah, exactly. I think it's funny listening to the YouTube McTaggart last night. It's the same content, I suppose, but it's being used on different platforms. So like you say, it's important that we're kind of still going on those places and listening to what people need, which I think we're very good at.

28:36I think the fact that we own the rights to our music means that we can exploit it how we need to, like the best way for us and our composers and our clients as well so I think that's a really important thing for people to know and something that we use a lot is that we own the rights so there's no other clearances which is obviously important for everyone here to know when it's going in so many different places. I mean the curse of digital media is that you think you have the rights and then suddenly your thing is blocked or stopped or muted and suddenly I was not expecting any of these things.

29:08But we have teams who also work in the background and when we have been faced with that they're so quick to handle it and it's thankfully all been pretty pain-free i promise having that expertise sometimes if you don't have those contacts or you've never faced these things before actually those are the things that can scupper productions i think that's a really important thing to tell people as well is that there are people behind the emails and also pick up the phone which i feel is like a lost art but we're on the other end of it and you can actually speak to someone and that is something I always try and say to people and actually we speak to clients over email all the time and we obviously have face-to-face meetings and it's the conversations that you have and they go oh my god I didn't know that and it's just yeah this is why I've been trying to get you for coffee because it's just so much easier to kind of give a quick synopsis of like this is what we do and and to understand their needs and be able to tell them what we do and how we can kind of help with that.

30:04And if they have any questions, just ask. You mentioned that kind of AI. Obviously, we're all AI production. It comes into it. It affects text. It affects video. It affects music. I guess there's opportunities around it. There's also kind of threats. How are people kind of tackling that? We're very focused on human creation. That is where we stand on it. We have no plans to ever be making music with AI. AI tools, absolutely fine. We have AI tools on our website, which helps with the search function. We're doing website demos if anyone wants to come along and see how that works. But as far as we're concerned, things should be human-made.

30:43We have recording sessions in Abbey Road and our studios. We have over 1 ,000 composers that we employ. I just think for the company itself, for myself, it would be so disheartening if we just got rid of all those people. I think people forget that there is people behind all these things that are created. and I personally just don't think you can ever recreate that. Also, it's good at processing the past, but it's not very good at creating the future, is it? No, and also like storytelling, whether it's music or TV or content on Instagram or TikTok or whatever, you're telling stories and that's, a robot can't do that.

31:19And like you say, like for future or human experience, like everything and everyone has their own kind of specific stories. So I just don't think you can ever do that. Danielle, thank you very much. and stick around because later on another edition of the audio network media quiz nicholas shillinger from key street productions hello hi welcome to the festival thank you new series out later this year yeah we've got um a series called the blame coming to itv very soon with michelle keegan and douglas booth so yeah excited for people to see that uh it should be good um uh lots of harlan ellison stuff over the last couple of years a lot of kitchen what do they call them kitchen sink dramas well not even kitchen sink it's like kitchen island dramas because they look shiny and special okay yeah is that the key to a good drama kitchen it's not all of them at all so there's none in the blame but in the harlan cobans yes yeah we do like a nice kitchen it is something that we pride ourselves on yeah so what what is the key to drama because i've just come out of a session with kevin ligo and he was saying that drama key to ITVX and that's really been the driver what's the special formula that works at the moment?

32:26I mean it's not the kitchen island that's the least important thing, I think it's about characters that people recognise, it's about stories that impact on people's lives it's about both people being able to forget their own lives, so you know really really to take you away from something and that's what the Harlins do really well or it's about focusing you down and making you feel like I'm not the only one going through this I understand what this character's gone through I understand where they're coming from so it just takes you away really and even if it makes you focus more on reality it can either confirm or change your opinions about what you've seen Has that changed?

33:02Has that always been the case or is there something special about this time and what viewers want today? I mean I've only ever made drama and bits of comedy so for me scripted has always done that and that's always been our aim our aim is first to entertain and then to try and change the world so you know something like Tiptoe for example that we made for Channel 4 this year it's you know it's a lot but it's also funny and entertaining and characters who you fall in love with so that's what we've always tried to do. So Key Street part of ITV Studios ITV going through its own changes as it gets kind of split into two as you said they making things for Channel 4 making things for ITV making things for everybody what's that like at the moment?

33:43You know for me it hasn't changed anything because itv studios is still itv studios i still work in the same way that i do key street is quite uh independent and it's it's set it is based in manchester we get on with selling and making the shows that we can we know exactly what we're meant to do and we just do that so whatever happens on that other level is happening and so long as we can still carry on doing that it's all okay for us and what are all your potential customers like you've got the streamers you've got broadcasters do they all want similar things what are they what are they looking out for?

34:14Ultimately everyone wants something that's really good a lot of people are going to watch no one knows what that is so there's slightly different things for different audiences you know, what Amazon talks about is slightly different from what Netflix talks about so you do, you get a sense of identity from each buyer and that's brilliant for us because then we can really focus what we're developing and make sure that we're delivering for people but ultimately yes, they want a big audience and a lot of people talking about it and for it to be noisy that's something that's happened over the last five years probably, which is drama has to shout a bit more.

34:44Yeah again in that session noisiness came up a lot. Does that get in the way of a good idea or can any idea be noisy? Any idea can be noisy so it's about it's our responsibility as producers to make sure that we are developing something which is going to grab attention so but it can be a small idea and it can be a small story they're harder to sell but they can they're still needed so it's it's a more difficult proposition at the beginning but so long as we understand that in this environment you don't just get an audience automatically then we're we are doing those things anyway we have to have a really strong opening we have to have a really clear proposition for what the show is and then we just have to make it really well does any data come back from the streamers of like oh this happened in the first two minutes they all disappeared don't do that don't do something horrible to a dog or it's bad news or do you just try to ignore that no no no it's really useful actually i find data really useful not because it makes us change what the writer's doing but because it makes me aware of what we need to push more towards we don't get that precise data but we do get like first two minutes are incredibly important think twice about title sequence, you know that kind of conversation it doesn't mean, but equally if we want to do a title sequence and if we think those first two minutes are right, they'll still stand by the creatives, it's just you're aware of what works and what doesn't work it's all information isn't it, it's all expertise comes from different places, it's useful.

36:10A lot of discussion in the industry about funding TV shows. Everything is getting more expensive in everybody's lives. It's getting more expensive to make things. Some of the traditional broadcasters can't just get out a checkbook and cover the whole production cost. What does that mean for you as a business? It means we have to be really clever about how we fund our shows. It means we have to be open to all kinds of alternative funding that we weren't necessarily in the first place. We have to look at money from the regions. We have to look at how we get our distribution money, how something can appear internationally.

36:41We have to look at how much we can make things for, whether there's a way of doing it cheaper. So we just really have to focus a lot more. It's not easy times at all. Is it still ideas first and then, hey, let's work our way to fund it? Or does that influence a bit what's on the development slate? We know this can maybe work in a couple of markets. We know that this funding here might support that. We definitely emphasise what we know we can get made. so we definitely look towards those things however if there's a brilliant idea which I know is the last thing in the world that anyone wants I also know that in a year's time it's what everyone wants so it would never stop me taking a project on and so that's the money side what about the creativity side so when writers are pitching you or you want to get writers to work with you what gets them excited how can you keep them in your gang?

37:28understanding what it is they want to write making sure that their voice on the paper gets delivered properly to the screen. So absolutely just supporting them all the way through the whole process and making sure that we don't push them in a direction that we think is totally unrealistic. Really nice talk to you. Thank you. Thank you. Bye-bye. It's Persephoneca's Dino Sophos. Hello, Dino. Hi Matt, how are you? I'm very good, I'm very good. I would say like us audio folk, but of course we're not audio folk. Not anymore, no. Across platform. No, no, no, not anymore, not anymore. Media nodes, whatever.

38:01Visualised. yes not video yes your podcast i mean quite busy recently with guests you do political currency and miss me um plus currencies had some good folk we've had some scoops yeah we had sue gray last week which is her first major interview since leaving downing street um yvette cooper i wonder how we got that one yes um uh co-host dead ball's wife because you don't know yeah keby badenock as well and all of those interviews generated headlines which were picked up on you know broadcast media newspaper and today we've got an exclusive with amal rajan who's leaving the bbc next week um and he said basically the bbc is getting smaller at an accelerating rate and that's why he's jumping ship to where the future is and that's youtube yes so an announcement today about that as we record he's teaming up with sister the studios company to launch his new channel i mean obviously he would say this because it's his new exciting his new exciting thing yeah i mean he could get a job in most places um he wants to scratch the entrepreneur oh yeah i think i most probably always have that and i listen when he first announced he was leaving the bbc i had a long chat with him on the phone about because he was picking my brains yeah you know what it's like to win an indie and live events and all of that and i think he understands that it's going to be a really hard slog and you know what he's used to with the bbc is big numbers on the today program big numbers on university challenge because he's on the bbc and attention and attention as we've seen with holly willoughby recently you know it's not that easy to get millions of views like that you know when you launch a new thing so i think he's prepared for that he's prepared for the hard Do you think he's going to sort of follow the more Piers Morgan end of things, sort of what he's doing on YouTube?

39:48Is it a version of, not maybe in style, but in kind of distribution? So if you listen to his interview on Political Currency, he goes into lots of detail about what his new YouTube show is going to be. And it's about the future and about ideas. So it's not a million miles away of what he was doing with his Radical podcast. But I think he's, it's probably a bit of his brain where he was saving his big gun interviews for when he was doing his own thing. So I think we're going to see a lot of big names, celebrities. He's got an amazing black box. Business brains. I've heard of him where he's going to be getting school kids to be asking questions of these big names he's going on, which will be interesting.

40:25We need a fun kids tie-up maybe for that. Absolutely. I saw him hovering with the European director of YouTube after his mid-tagget yesterday. Yeah, I'm sure he's courting Pedro. Yeah, just shimmy up the algorithm. Yeah, look, it's an incredibly competitive space. And of course, as podcasters, whatever a podcaster means anymore, YouTube is an increasingly, well, the most important platform. I mean, I'm here. We were just talking about this. The last time I was here was 2022. And Emily Maitlis came in, and we'd been working together on her McTaggart speech. And she came in and basically threw a grenade into the conference center about Robbie Gibb being a Tory Martinist of the BBC.

41:08And then we basically ran away. So I've never actually experienced the festival. It's amazing. And what strikes me is how many of the conversations now are around podcasting and podcasters. Lots of references to the Sidemen, Goal Hanger. And that's from TV Indies actually approaching us to go, we'd love to work with you on what does the podcast actually look like on YouTube. And also the commissioners now going, we originally were talking to TV Indies, but now we've realised we should be talking to you guys. So that's really exciting. But look, it's the place to be. And we're here for the TV Awards tonight with Steve Bracknell.

41:47Yes. So a fictional Sunday League assistant football manager who's up for best visualised podcast against Traitors Uncloaked and Peaky Blinders. Nice easy group to tackle. We're not going to win. I mean, by the time this goes out, you'll find out that we didn't win. It's lovely to be here, but just to have Chris in this space, who plays Steve Bracknell, with all these TV commissioners because they must be looking at that thinking gosh, that's a TV sitcom in the making. I'm interested in sort of the platform side. Traditionally, podcasts, you either kind of did it yourself or you got the BBC to commission it.

42:22We're in a strange position now where the BBC sort of let their commissions be reallocated to the commercial world. You've been through this with Miss Me, what's the BBC Sounds podcast. Now it remains on sounds, but you get to commercialise it. It's the best of both worlds, right? and i think that that works for both of us they they obviously spent a lot of money launching this meeting they've seen return about of people coming to the bbc sounds on the platform and i guess in the journey of all big shows it probably gets to the point where for us we've got brands who want to advertise it from bbc they can then reinvest that money in new ip and new talent so yeah it makes sense for them and it's great for us are you ever happy happy how it's gone very happy yeah I mean it's interesting also the audience the perception shifts right so all of a sudden you're used to us talking about it being the BBC and the BBC is kind of being like you know the parent that is kind of monitoring you and then all of a sudden they start hearing ads and sponsorships and yeah so taking holding the audience by the hand and saying things are going to sound a bit different but the show is fundamentally the same of course it's meant that we have been able to tackle subjects that previously were just too difficult for the BBC editorial policy.

43:33So we've done two specials on drugs, you know, and Makita and Jordan's experience in the last life with drug taking, which was just too difficult. But even now, you know, like, conversations with Jordan Makita are really interesting because, you know, it's not as simple as we're not on the BBC anymore, we can say what we want. It's all like, no, no, no, now it's on us. And also sometimes having a big bad guy in the BBC is something to play against. when actually you can use for an indie yeah when you can make your own decisions you've got to take responsibility for what you choose to do as well no it's it's been a fascinating exercise i think there's only two shows have done that so far officially so ellis and john yes you've seen in the past shows leave like me to crouch but i couldn't take the feed with them because it kind of they haven't quite got to this point yeah exactly but yeah and it's been a really smooth process with the BBC and hopefully we can do that again in the future.

44:24Bring shows to them, work with them for a couple of years or however long it is and then we're able to commercialise them. Thank you very much. Thanks. Lucas Green, Chief Content Officer, Operations for Banner J. What does that mean? So we look after all the format catalogue in terms of the editorial production of all of those big shows. So those big super brands like Big Brother, Mars Chef, Survivor, Temptation Island, Deal or No Deal. And now all three family of brilliant formats like the Traders, Gogglebox, Race Across the World, Lingo. It's a lot. There's a lot to do. That is an amazing train set to get to play with.

45:00With a lot of history, but that train's got to keep moving. That's got to be a tough balance. Yeah, and I think that the trains build and it has different passengers on it. But we're all going in the same direction. And it's a lot of fun. Playing with train sets is a fun thing to do. We've got to remember that. and I think that's what I've taken from being at the festival for about 24 hours is we've all been off for summer for a bit there's been mergers and acquisitions going on so it's not been a complete break but you come back and you see colleagues and friends and clients and actually you get a real buzz from being here and seeing people and actually it is a people business there is AI to help us but you can't beat lived human experience and human interaction so it's great to see everyone here.

45:41We talked about the merger there I mean it makes you a sort of super massive mega indie now uh bringing the two companies together obviously as you said brings a lot of brands to think about is that quite a challenge you know that's a that train set trying to distribute that to lots of countries trying to reinvent it do there end up being priorities is it are there downsides of having that scale it's a fun challenge and i think that you know we are a content powerhouse now rather than just a tv production company and i think what we've got is an amazing infrastructure to be able to deliver those trains to lots of different stations and I think you know much like the Victorians they built train tracks and they went all over Europe I think we've got that infrastructure and I think as well as brilliant footprint of producers across 25 different territories we've also got a live business we've got a massive digital business and little adult we've got lots of branded entertainment contacts and I think that alongside Banerjee Rights and our distribution division we've got the infrastructure to be able to take a brilliant show whether it's a reboot of a dormant super a brand or whether it's a brand new show and if we if we can crack it in somewhere like the UK we can then absolutely roll it out really quickly and frictionlessly around the world.

46:51Are we talking about reboots there? There's always been reboots though shows always come back sometimes they get a bit of a hard time and that we should be spending the money and investing in new ideas what's that tension between new things putting new stuff into reboots and finding a place for it in today's world? Well, I think every time you've got a new cast, you've got a reboot. And actually, nobody ever says, oh, well, let's cancel the Olympics or let's cancel the Premier League because we've already done it for however many years. You know, I think with those brilliant brands and shows, actually, every year when you've got a new cast, it's completely different.

47:25Every series of The Traitors or Rates Across the World is going to play out differently because of your cast. So talking about casting there and how important casting is to the success of these shows, does that change territory to territory? are there things we've learned in different areas are some markets, celeb-only markets I think about the traitors in America and they've gone to be a purely non-celebrity edition for the latest series for Peacock I think it was really interesting when there'd been that hugely successful celebrity traitors, people wondered what it was going to be like going back to civilians and the civilian show was even better so I think it proves that you can have different types of cast, I think around the world we see you know, we always have professional TV contestants in some territories and I think those, it used to be a bit of a dirty word to say, oh we're going to cast shows with influencers, but actually now we call them content creators.

48:17Everybody wants to work with content creators in a way that people didn't want to work with influencers. They're kind of the same generation of new celebrities and I've got a lot of respect for those people because to come from nothing and just build your own platform and your own audience, these people are really savvy creators, They know their audience. So they also bring newer Gen Z audiences to linear television? And even better, like, harder to reach audiences. Actually, they're bringing people who might not have watched linear television and known about these shows. So yes, they can bring their audience, got ready-made followers, audiences, changing the profile of the audiences of these big linear channels.

48:52We also see in some territories, like Germany, they don't really like civilian shows. You know, in Germany, traditionally, and their audience said, well, why are we watching these shows with just ordinary people in why are they worthy of our time so actually in germany it's always celebrities and there's this new breed of celebrity which i think is you know again breathing new interesting life into a lot of these big well-established shows you talked a bit there about digital formats uh i know you do quite interesting stuff on youtube and some of that's coming onto traditional television absolutely you know look at uh dan snow in history here from little dot you know that's now going into the linear space and doing you know history series on all sorts of platforms.

49:30I think it's a great development testing ground. I think that in digital you can do A-B testing. You can just put stuff out there. If it works, you do more of it. If it doesn't work, you do less of it. And actually, I think it's a lot more, it's a lot easier really to now, if you've got a great idea to try it out and use real data to prove that it should be something bigger. Yeah, it's one of the Benelux formats with the big red balls. Let's Play Ball. The big red balls. It starts out on YouTube. You know, it had a great run on Linear, doing season two. We're piloting it in lots of other English-speaking territories.

50:03It's really just a simple idea. It's very visual. You watch it with your family. I'm a great believer in if you can watch it with your kids, everybody's a winner. It's a great way to get the family around the TV and people want that. Kids want to watch content with their parents and parents want to watch content with their kids. So if you can find something, whether it's a competitive reality show like MasterChef or Traitors, or it's something funny like lol or let's play ball people want to come together you know we are a social animal and we do enjoy you know finding and discovering new content together it gives us something to talk about rather than the war in the middle east or a mortgage rate yes um definitely much more interesting than that um you're saying there about kind of using some of the youtube data to help influence like format points um is that something kind of new to the business what are existing sort of TV creators think about you know using that data maybe for the first time to go actually the exciting bits here and we thought it was here and we should rearrange how that looks?

51:00I think in the UK a lot of content used to be commissioned on instinct you know and a lot of buyers would say I just love this idea let's just make it. We found that in Europe a lot more European broadcasters would really look at the data you know if you want to sell a format in France there's a lot of research going into what works which version of the show should we make but I think that now those digital platforms give us that amazing market, you know, it's real-time market research and it helps prove that something has got an audience. So it helps make the show better, but it's also a sales tool.

51:30So you obviously sell to lots of broadcasters, lots of streamers, pretty much everybody. There can always sell to more. There can always be more trains at the station. There's always room to drag that out again. The word I'm hearing a lot here is noisy. I just heard a session with Channel 5 with Ben Frower talking about chewy television, get things to get your teeth into what are you hearing from around the world what should your competitors also be thinking about that these people want has noisy replaced fewer bigger better yes I think so I think it's probably the same thing isn't it people want big swings they want shows that you can get a marketing budget behind you know what's the poster how do we compete for eyeballs with this show that people can quite quickly connect with I think that we do see that globally most broadcasters are in quite similar positions I think that the content creator boom is happening globally we also see that there's an appetite for higher volume lower cost you know big shows can be noisy shows but it can also mean long runs of shows where the price point is lower so economy of scale back-to-back productions we recently did a version of masterchef in latin america that was called masterchef 24 7 and they all live together in a house and it's quite a bold experiment for masterchef which is ultimately a very credible cooking show so to try something that's got more reality nuance of people living together was a bit of a risk.

52:47Do your big brother colleagues help out with something like that? It definitely helps to be in a big family like Banerjee where you can bring together different expertise. So look, collaboration is really important. I think we saw it on Last One Laughing in the UK. So that was two labels. Yeah, so it was Zephytron's comedy chops, comedy contacts and initials expertise in house reality. We worked together really well, doing it again between Worker B and Initial for Marry Me for Netflix. again big bold idea stream and nuance but also the ability to make these big shows and have a big budget so I think being able to use complementary skills with a big group is really important you know we're quite federated we're quite autonomous but we want those producers have the freedom to work together and actually create that chemistry that will deliver just finally create a talent creators have got their own business models they've got their own YouTube channels they're doing pretty well sometimes and a fleet of foot how does your organizations and labels work with those people in the old days we just write them a check do we have to create joint ventures now i think so you know we used to just call those people talent and they are still talent and they are still really important to the business i think that they are motivated by different things i think that they are also much more entrepreneurial now you know they are their own producers they can work with quite nimble budgets they don't always require like a huge check to pilot something they know their audiences so yeah i think you've got to be more creative and imaginative in the deals that you do with them and in collaborating with them and i always say when we do our format protection you know rather than um you know look at creators trying to steal ideas how do we bring them in you know much better for us to work together and use their complementary knowledge of their own audiences and our knowledge of making these big shows with long form story arcs and actually bringing those together and harnessing each of their own skills can hopefully create those really big franchises of the future great lucas thank you very much thanks matt enjoy the rest of the festival david cluse chief creative officer at two four joins me hello hello how are you i'm very good um so two four uh had a great year uh with educating and won some awards and i guess do you come out of retirement from a voiceover perspective as well i mean i did actually yeah much to i think um channel four's um you know probably disappointment that they were going to get someone new um i think my voice is a bit croaky today because of um you know too many late nights up here um but no it's obviously it was brilliant that it came back it was a long process to get it back on the screens and you know the team did a incredible job it it's harder than ever to make that series from a duty of care point of view you know I think the sort of awareness that young people have of you know material footage content of theirs going out there and the sort of long-term impact of that yes but you know we've always told the stories really carefully and responsibly and I think it's important to be able to obviously tell those stories of young people and sort of a positive portrayal of young people which isn't always the case in the media and it was really lovely to get the BAFTA nomination so you know I disappointed we didn't win obviously we were robbed but it's brilliant that we're back in Yorkshire again so we start filming next week it's actually the first time that we've made the series at the very beginning of an academic year we've always started later in that first term or you know, sort of after January so it's exciting to be there, genuinely there from that very first moment back so yeah we're very busy the production village has gone in obviously all the cameras are about to go into the school so we're yeah geared up for an exciting new turn it's a huge technical install I mean it's very easy to forget even if you're in telly when you watch it but you know that sort of digital village and everything yes a lot of cameras yes yeah yeah yeah somewhere between 60 and 70 and the cabling is you know a few kilometers worth of cabling and obviously that's a process that's been you know we've been doing that now for a long time we shot the first series educating Essex back in 2010 and I made the family before that so the sort of process of putting fixed rig is probably quite old school now we need to come up with something new don't we and why is it keeping busy at 2.4 well the box is launching on ITV on September the 5th so that's super exciting.

57:43I was watching the trailer for that in one of the sessions. There's the yellow boxes. Yes. Celebrities inside are revealed in a random selection of locations where I imagine tasks and challenges. Yes. The main thing I thought when I watched it was I bet those doors don't always open at the right time together. I mean occasionally you might have the old technical glitch but no they're very well designed. Okay. but yeah that's the sort of premise is you know they the doors can open absolutely anywhere and you know it's how what would you do and that's sort of the game the play along really there's no instruction what do you do when those doors open and and how do you work out what you need to do and obviously people play games in very different ways so it's great fun it also pushes the celebs you know it definitely takes them into sort of dealing with their fears um you know whether that's water or heights or singing in front of an audience um but um but it's it's brilliant and um gary lineker is great obviously feels like he's in a slightly different he's the host in a box yes he's the host i mean it looks pretty expensive so icv have stumped up a decent chunk of change yeah yeah I imagine you spent some money on development well I mean you know that was part of a tender process and um you know that was an idea that has come from Norway so it's not an original idea from here we then won that tender process right um so we can't take credit for the yellow boxes they actually came um before us from a different production company does it when there's um the channel obviously interested in the idea that wants someone to make it you want to take what's worked well elsewhere and give it your knowledge and understanding what we know about the market what's that process uh i guess you think well what's the clear part of the idea that those commissioners um you know all production companies that have seen that idea you know like themselves like with destination x obviously that was a belgian format That, again, a sort of tender process that lots of people went for.

59:56And the sort of the top line idea of you just need to guess where you are in the world is a good one. But then there's, you know, once you're then commissioned to make it, there's a development process to go, OK, well, how do you make that work for a UK market? Who's, you know, which channel or streamer is it on? and how do you then shift what that feels like with Destination X you know we amplified everything there was lots of sort of knotty clues in the Belgium series that frankly you know everyone's going to miss so it's like how do you make the gameplay work um for for the audience and obviously with that series it was all about sort of co-viewing family viewing how can someone you know a kid at home to a granny sitting next to them watch that and enjoy it so um yeah that's always part of the development a lot of discussion about noisy shows chewy shows i heard that mentioned is that a new buzzword is it chewy i think just 78 teeth into yeah um are we having to think differently is this really just what everybody's always wanted it's just different ways to describe it yes and no i think i think um you know as everyone says here audience is a king and and because it's much harder to win those commissions you know people took more risks back then there were more opportunities so i think that's changed you know everyone is probably you know more risk adverse they want to feel like they've got a hit on their hands because we're all much more exposed, aren't we?

1:01:36Because there are just those fewer opportunities. David, thank you very much. Okay, pleasure. Okay, there's just enough time for the Audio Network Media Quiz.

1:01:48And joining me are two stellar guests to round off the show this week. I'm with entertainment exec Rina Dialgi, currently on the Prime Video Pathway Scheme, and Chris Curtis, editor of Broadcast. Not on any pathway. No. But often scheming. That is true. I'll take that. If people don't know, what is the pathway? So it's an incredible, incredible program run by, spearheaded by Fuzzy Khan, Amazon Prime Video Pathway. And they've basically selected six incredible next generation of talent of execs, ones to watch. so six of us have been placed in huge indies and we've got a year contract with loads of like periphery training around and access to things like this so it's a really really excellent training ground nice yeah good and you've recovered from all your traitors work last year yeah so it's very exciting to see the trail for series two just dropped Mike Cotton a little message and said bravo they're in the thick of filming right now so yeah great and Chris busy festival for the broadcast team always we're here mob handed at considerable expense burning the midnight oil working hard playing hard lots of debates lots of interesting conversations it's nice to see people in real life isn't it yes it's the opposite of zooms it's the antidote to the microsoft teams world that we all work in so yeah more real life interactions please well people have legs shocker it is true right tradition here in Edinburgh for a special on the road edition of the Audio Network media quiz and this week it's called Commission Impossible once again Alex Audio Network has taken that brief from producer Matt and created a playlist of music for today's game so every year the festival buries us all in new show announcements and every year producer Matt tries to sneak in a few fake ones so there's going to be some genuine commissions and some fake ones you just have to tell me which is which I'm competitive but I'm ill-informed which is a terrible combination okay real or fake I'm gonna do a round each with you so 10 for you Rina here we go Number one, Help Me Tiny Big Brain with Jack Dean.

1:04:09True. It is true. Stat Attack with Emily Atak. False. Correct. Not real. Three, The Unheard, Kate Winslet and Maxine Peake on the run. Oh, that is real. Very excited about that. It is real. Zoo, do you think you are? Not real. Sadly not real. Okay, Top Boy sequel, Joddy Boy. Yes, very real. Very real. Mr. Beast Record Breaker. Not real. Not real, correct. Number seven, Marbles from Robert Popper. Real. I have been listening. This is great. I love the Supergirl. New comedy of Robert Webber and Timothy Spore for Netflix. Number eight, The Great Bartender, MasterChef, but for cocktails. Oh, I mean, not real, but I've watched it.

1:04:58Sadly not real. Number nine, You Are Here, drama. real I'll say is real, this is Claire Foy Matthew McFadgen's new 8 part series number 10, Irish dancing mockumentary jig jig, yes, I'm in for that one that's 10 out of 10 that's pretty good that broadcast article just disappeared any of those that you think that's great, that's what I really want to see I'm really excited about jig I think that'd be great the Maxine Pete Kate Winslet I think that'll be an incredible duo and just the funny ones all the funny ones there's a lot of comedy chat actually at the festival this year yeah okay Chris let's see how you do let's go right to Nicola love Peter Nicola Sturgeon and Peter Morrell drama very true Channel 5 getting topical again correct Sheridan Smith in a Dolly Parton biopic I think that has not been announced but watch this space because I'd be amazed if someone's not onto it straight away Correct Number three, beat Luke Lickler Yes, that's true That's amateur darts players getting a chance to go up against the 19-year-old world champion for Netflix Yeah, we're going to come Richard Osman Joel Domit's Joel's house party These are excellent ideas I believe we are not seeing a Mr.

1:06:33Blobby revival Not yet, no reboot for Blobby yet Jamitisation of book How to Kill Your Family Oh goodness, that sounds like a very commissionable title So I'm going to say yes Yes is Bella Mackey's bestseller It's going to be a Netflix series with Anya Taylor-Joy Oh goodness, right Aaron Carr's Antiques Uproar No, not yet he's too busy with his castle SAS who dares bakes again perfectly plausible but no okay correct outside with the sidemen sequel to inside yes they've worked out the side worked out how doors work so they've gone from inside to outside untitled dull stories for adults entitled dull stories for adults yes yes because Netflix bought Roald Dahl, the IP.

1:07:29Just Roald Dahl. Mr. Dahl is no longer with us, sadly. But they bought Roald Dahl's IP and catalog many years ago now, and they've been relatively, taking their time, I think, in terms of exploiting it. There's a reality show in the works, and now they've announced some, yes, who knows, I presume it's a sort of Tales of the Unexpected type vibe. But yeah, that is real. Well, I think that makes it 10 out of 10 for both. Well done. Well done, Edinburgh experts. We've been paying attention. There's a lot of boxes and trapping celebrities. There's a lot of similar things looking around this year. Yeah, yeah, there is.

1:08:08I saw a little clip. Can I give a shout out to a show called Life Support that Channel 5 are doing for a relatively small indie called Brinkworth Films. They showed it during the Channel 5 session and the clip was a chap under local anaesthetic and he was having brain surgery performed on him and his cognitive functions wobbled during the course of this brain surgery as they checked it out. And my heart was in my mouth watching it. And I'm quite cynical. I've seen a lot of stuff, but I muttered a wow under my breath. So shout out for life support, Channel 5, Brinkworth Films. A lot of interesting stuff on Channel 5.

1:08:45Did you read Ben Fowl's session at all? I didn't make that one, so I'm glad you've had the Channel 5 questions. A lot of chat about noisy television, chewy television and they're definitely looking for visual things at Channel 5 to really capture people's imagination. Yeah, I mean it's super hard, like cutting through, getting noticed is an immense challenge, particularly for new titles right? There's just the sheer volume of competition, the sheer volume of good ideas, everything that's here that's being announced, plus the elephant in the room of YouTube, I mean not so much a hidden, like front and centre of the festival and YouTube sort of stating its case, making its claim.

1:09:25But it's all just competition for eyeballs. So, yeah, you've got to have something really noisy, really grabby if you think it's going to cut through. Reena, it's your first trip to the festival. If people haven't been before, obviously, we're going to be in Manchester next year. What have you kind of taken from it or what have you surprised about it? I think just see as much as you can. And, like, you know, it's not... For me, what I've taken from it, it's full of really top-level senior people and people, you know, execs and below don't really get access unless you're going to shell out for yourself.

1:09:58So I think it could open its doors still and make it a lot more accessible and I think it would get a lot more from it because, you know, I don't know whether you were in the opening debate yesterday. The opening debate was slightly terrifying because it was like, it made me question how am I going to spend the next 15 years in doing what I do? Am I doing the right thing by chasing the streamers or actually should I ditch the streamers because they're old news and go to YouTube, which actually is, you know, after Amelia de Moldenburg said she'd been doing it 12 years already, I was like, am I too late for that?

1:10:31What do I do? So I think it's really fascinating, but I think just rinse as much as you can, as hard as it is, network as hard as you can, and I'm quite looking forward to, there's a rumor of quite an old school TV party tonight, so I'm quite looking forward to that. Good, good, boost, boost, boost. Chris, what we're saying, a lot of people feel the same way, whether you're a big mega, super mega indie, a broadcaster or even a streamer. We're in flux. We're massively in flux. I think the reassuring message, I don't think anyone believes that amazing, well-produced, long-form content is no longer what people watch or want.

1:11:18You know, the appetite for what I still broadly call telly is super, super high. Now, it's getting broader. There are different production models. There are different production values. The kind of, you know, one of the things we're seeing is can the traditional TV industry get to grips with an economic model that works on YouTube? Easier for the BBC with its guaranteed revenue streams than for the commercial broadcasters where half the ad money is sucked away before you've even started. But what's the economic model for creating that type of content, which clearly resonates with viewers, because people are watching it in their droves, that might not have the immaculate grade that television has traditionally had, might be a lower tariff, but still can support the ecosystem, support indie, support freelancers.

1:12:06So the industry is massively grappling with that. Alongside that, the big stuff is still super successful. You've rattled off a lot of those commissions in our quiz. A good number of them were high-level projects with big tariffs and big talent attached. So it's not true that television is dying on the way out. It's not that what we produce is not what people want anymore. But it's unbelievably competitive and there's other stuff as well. that is impinging on the sides and that's what the industry is grappling with i think it needs to speed up telly yeah for sure to keep up with all the digital stuff and the space we need to speed up and i think that's a big something that needs to change well i think it's something we will pick up on the show and probably talk about this time next year in manchester thank you very much well that's it for the edinburgh tv festival actually that's it for the tv festival from Edinburgh.

1:13:03And next year, it hits Manchester. A lot of the sector will be there, maybe some new faces. Of course, we'll be there too. And we're back for a full series that starts next week. Mine is Matt Deegan. The producer is Matt Hill. It was a Rethink Audio production with video support from Podcast Discovery. I'll see you then.

1:13:30right it's time for our annual listener survey if you can spare five minutes to share your opinions on the show not only will you help shape the future of the media club but one lucky respondent will win a 50 pound john lewis voucher do it now there's a link in the show notes or at themediaclub.com