Telegraph Deal Take #4... and are you World Cup Ready?

0:01Matt Deegan: Hello, welcome to the Media Club. I'm Matt Deegan. In the club today, the Daily Telegraph has a new owner. Again, after three years, Abu Dhabi, Redbird, IMI, the Barclay family, Lord Rothmere and a cast of thousands. Turns out it's Axel Springer who's grabbed it, media historian Maggie Brown on whether this time it might actually stick. Also on the show, more on the Banner Jay and all three media mega merger as the dust starts to settle and the questions get harder. Juan Delgado, CEO of Football Co, on what life looks like inside an$8 billion production empire. All that, plus the BBC's new podcast deal for Indies Take Shape.

0:37Matt Deegan: We look at what brands and publishers should do in the 100 days before the World Cup. And in the Audio Network Media Quiz, we're playing matchmaker. That's all happening in this edition of the Media Club. Come on in.

0:54Matt Deegan: Hello to you both. Hello. Thank you. Lovely to have you here. Joining me to discuss the week's biggest stories are two more members of the club. First, welcome to the club, Maggie Brown. You've written the definitive history of Channel 4 and have covered the media industry for decades. And also joining us for his media club debut, CEO of Football Co, the world's largest football media company, Juan Delgado. Juan, welcome.

1:19Juan Delgado: Thank you for having me.

1:20Matt Deegan: So, plus ones, you've got your membership cards. Who would you like to bring with you?

1:25Juan Delgado: I am going to bring Ryan Reynolds. That's a good first person to bring. Yes, and it's not because of my accent. It's actually because he has made soccer famous in America. And as the probably last frontier, given your mention of the World Cup, in the conquest of FIFA and football over the world, I think he's done a terrific job, and so has his partner Rob, in building what was a, you know, I think League 3 or something club into now an aspiring Premier League club, having just played Chelsea and almost pulled it off in the FA Cup. It was amazing to see the game. It was amazing to see the excitement of the crowd, everything.

2:00Juan Delgado: Even the interview that they did afterwards was amazing.

2:03Matt Deegan: We'll talk about America and football a little bit later on. I mean, it's also a great TV show.

2:10Juan Delgado: It is. I mean, I've watched the documentary. As I was telling Maggie earlier, I haven't been to Wales yet, but I feel like I've seen it.

2:16Maggie Brown: I've been trying to persuade him to make a quick visit.

2:19Matt Deegan: It's good. I think also what's interesting is that combination of the power of football and it's transforming a town that has had a tough time as well.

2:29Juan Delgado: Yes. Yeah. I think storytelling and football overall, which is, you know, it's our bread and butter. You can build a lot of different layers of a different onion every time from culture to music to everything. Obviously, what happens on the pitch and how exciting it is. But it's a it's a whole ecosystem. It's a whole industry worth tens of billions in all sorts of broadcast rights, sponsorship rights, etc. But outside of that sits a much bigger world, which is the art of storytelling.

2:57Matt Deegan: Well, Ryan, very welcome to join us in the club. I'm sure he'd make it lots of fun. Maggie, welcome back. Thank you. Who have you got as your plus one this week?

3:06Maggie Brown: Anna Foster. Okay, yes. Anna Foster.

3:09Matt Deegan: So the Today program host.

3:10Maggie Brown: Today program. And also, well, one of the five. But also at the moment, as you probably know, she's out and reporting on the terrible situation in Iran and in the Middle East. Yes, I was judging the awards for the Royal Television Society Journalism Awards, not this year, but the year before. And she was one of the people on the on the shortlist. And although she I think she was about number three, she didn't really get mentioned. But I was just struck by her. every single thing she said made a lot of sense she has a very nicely modulated way of saying it but she's not a me me me person and she I just thought she was in the flesh terrific and I just knew something would happen to her I didn't know that she would then take a very improminent role and it isn't actually just radio as well she's doing television and she knows an awful lot but she doesn't make it difficult to understand I think she's a real a real star and I was so pleased actually just well not pleased isn't quite the right word but she's really doing very well at the moment if you if you are watching the BBC and the I mean I'm afraid I'm you know pretty much a news freak so I think she is tremendous yes you've got a

4:28Matt Deegan: broadcasting press guild nomination as well in the past few weeks um I mean the today program's in an interesting place at the moment we've got amal rajan is leaving yes the editors changed um what do you what state do you think it's in at the moment well i was very interested because

4:45Maggie Brown: the financial times ran a column two weeks ago saying it really was dreadful and it needed to change and i have not been a huge fan of it uh recently and i think the mix of things is wrong and I think it's got stale really. But I was then waiting to see what the reaction was from the grand readers of the Financial Times and I didn't actually see any responses. Now it may be that they haven't woken up yet and then they will finally start either pro or anti Radio 4. I think a lot of the BBC News and current affairs and other areas will be reformed in some way or there'll be changed as new people come in.

5:28Maggie Brown: I mean, there's a changing of the guards taking place anyway at the BBC. So nothing is forever. And I'm sure that there will be changes. So all I can say is that, you know... Wait and see. Wait and see, yes.

5:42Matt Deegan: Juan, you've been here for five years in the UK?

5:44Juan Delgado: Yes, this is my second tour, but yeah, five years this tour.

5:47Matt Deegan: Have you settled into the slightly random media connections of Today's programme on Radio 4, something a lot of people listen to every morning? are you keeping up your American media habits or have you adopted a load of British ones?

5:59Juan Delgado: I have and the you know the way I started was when one of my board members asked me if my two kids were going to go to the American school and I immediately told them no they're going to go to British school and like get deep into it so yes we've tried to immerse ourselves as much as possible and obviously there's just like in the U.S. tons of media offerings here from all walks life and all different points of view. I don't know the names of the people as well as Maggie just rolled off about 10 and I was like, geez, I might know like two. But it's, you know, you've got an outlet for every type of taste here.

6:35Matt Deegan: Okay. In a moment, the Telegraph has a new owner we think. Join us after the break. This is Iowa Kemulere from the Athletic FC podcast. Buying a car should be exciting, not exhausting. And if you're looking for a gleaming SUV to replace your old banger, or you're taking the plunge and going electric, the good news is you can buy your car completely online on Autotrader. Really. Just go to autotrader.com and get picky. Search through dealer listings for the make, model, colour and the features that matter to you. Then just drop in your info and you'll see all the cars that fit your budget. Really.

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7:28Juan Delgado: There's one place for the newest drops in wellness and performance and the biggest sale of the year. It's the drop by GNC, curating the best of what's new, handpicked by the pros who know what works. And right now, get it all, buy one, get one 50 % off during the semi-annual LiveWell sale. From crushing workouts to leveling up your nutrition and everything in between, get the best deals on the latest innovations. All the newness is all on sale right now during the LiveWell sale on The Drop by GNC.

8:06Matt Deegan: Welcome back. Now, The Telegraph has a new owner. No, not that one you're thinking of, all that one. It's the German press powerhouse Axel Springer. Maggie, where to begin? So the Barclay family, they lost control to the Lloyds Banking Group in June 2023, over a billion pounds of debt. Then Redbird IMI was blocked. DMGT agreed a deal in November. Lord Rodmire getting ready to chat to everybody. And then Axel Springer swoops in with a 575 million pound cash offer?

8:39Maggie Brown: It was kept very quiet. I think that probably they were plotting it. And the person who runs Axel Springer actually said that they've been waiting for 20 years to pass. And I mean, they must have been getting to the end of their patience when they finally did. I think that this is a very, very good move. It hasn't aroused fury, in fact, quite the reverse. And what is actually happening is that if it was almost impossible for the daily mail to buy yet another paper and in fact as you know that the daily mail owns the eye so it would have been an it was almost impossible for it to go get through ofcom and all the different processes hence this three year

9:24Matt Deegan: so jimmy's kind of red bird going red bird of course wasn't able to because it was a foreign

9:30Maggie Brown: also more money and more money it's much more money but nobody knew that it was going to be that that extra because obviously the telegraph is is a paper needing nursing back into robust health i think that that already the lisa nancy the the culture secretary has referred this to um ofcom so they're already vetting it it strikes me that there's going to be quite a fast move And I think people will see that there'll be money pumped into this newspaper. And there will be changes, obviously. We don't quite know what Axel Springer is going to do. But the fact is, it's going to have an owner that really believes in newspapers in their own way.

10:13Maggie Brown: And that is a very good thing for the Telegraph.

10:16Matt Deegan: Do you think Axel Springer is a good owner of the Telegraph?

10:18Juan Delgado: I think so. I mean, they've met a few vets in the U.S. with Politico and Business Insider and a few other publications. And in a world in which what I would call traditional digital publishing, meaning websites, written word, long form pieces, brands like the Telegraph still matter. And the fact that somebody like Axel Springer is willing to pay the multiples that I believe they paid, which is, I think, over two and a half X in revenue and high EBITDA multiple. In my world, my company is controlled by private equity, is a good thing. Because it means that when you have a one of one, you know, in this case, a very well-known brand that stands for something in a market that's as interesting as the UK, which has a global influence too.

11:06Juan Delgado: then there's loads of opportunity and the opportunity that the Guardian saw and that the Mail saw when they went after the US the Telegraph also has and I'm sure they're going to you know make it work.

11:16Maggie Brown: The person who runs it is called Matthias Dobbs. Yes always love a Matty

11:21Matt Deegan: being successful.

11:22Maggie Brown: Yes absolutely but what he has been talking about I mean they own just to reel off the names of their publications the the build Business Insider, Politico and Veldt and they have of course interests in america so there it's a different approach to newspapers i mean he's a

11:42Matt Deegan: he's an interesting guy um in the uk the proprietors tend to have a hands-off approach or pretend they have a hands-off approach he's a little bit more interventionist in his in his

11:53Maggie Brown: well you know look at it i mean the poor old telegraph i mean i have actually worked for it some of the time and it's a great newspaper really but it's had better days and i mean the owners include Conrad Black, who as we went to prison, and the Barclay brothers. And then it's obviously they seem to have run out of money. And so it's been kind of dangling really for far too long. And nobody knew how it was going to finish.

12:24Matt Deegan: I think it's sort of three years of being in this stage. I mean, for any organisation, particularly a journalistic one, not knowing what your future is,

12:32Juan Delgado: it's hard to kind of get on with the day job it's super hard yeah i mean you know we live our business lives in a football schedule and usually it's driven by the annual seasons but also by things like the world cup and so even in our uh business which is multi-market so probably more diversified than telegraph you always uh end up wondering like okay we get through this world cup and what's next now we've been at it for a while some of the brands that we own have been at it for a long time but removing that level of uncertainty will allow them to innovate create new formats create things that matter probably in i would advise if i were on their board uh be more focused on things like video and vertical video which they do but not to the extent that some of

13:21Matt Deegan: their and there's been i think there's been some conversation from um from the acquirer they're very interested in the digital bit of the business obviously it's the right the right thing to do the telegraph's not done bad with its subscription model in in the interim yes they were one of the

13:35Maggie Brown: first to actually try it and you know one of the things that i i like about matthew's doctor is that he's saying that they will preserve the brand now whether they really mean that but they say you know springer was well we know it was founded in 1946 after world war ii there is this sort of respect if you like for uh kind of british newspaper type of invention i'm not saying it's a family business it's a family business yes and i they do have um they do have a lot to contribute as well hence the fact that they do have this range of other news other papers or magazines so all i can say is that it's better than it could have been and it does introduce a new force into our media here.

14:17Maggie Brown: It does shake it up.

14:18Matt Deegan: It does add some diversity into the UK. I think so.

14:21Maggie Brown: And it's clearly going to get the backing. We're not going to have another three year dangling around and mucking about. And I think that, I'm not saying it's, I don't know how it will work out, but I have a feeling that I feel good about it.

14:34Matt Deegan: I feel like poor Lisa Nandy in her office. They just get to work on one transaction. It's like, oh, it's changed, right? Those in the bin, right? And the next lot of paperwork. She'll be pleased to never have to think about it. She will be pleased.

14:46Maggie Brown: I mean, remember, she was brought up in Manchester in the heart of the sort of the Granada type of era when she was a child. So she understands the importance of proper media and also of journalism. So I'm actually very pleased that she's in that position now at this point in time.

15:05Matt Deegan: Well, speaking of the government and the media, the FT is reporting, as we record, that the BBC has been offered a funding freeze for the World Service. not the greatest offer in the world but a lot of discussion about whether the UK government should pay for all of the World Service I think kind of two thirds of it still comes from the licence fee no real increase that's not great news for the World Service

15:31Maggie Brown: no it's not but I don't really know much about this story to be absolutely honest with you I have been following a great deal of the debate about the future of the BBC and they I mean the World Service I think reaches 48 different countries so it's a very important soft power influence and remember also they never really talk about this but anybody who knows the BBC will know that there's an area where they directly can hand over interesting information to number 10 or whatever they are the monitoring side of the monitoring side of it is is you know a quiet but very useful thing so it but it does kind of interlink a bit

16:17Matt Deegan: with with the world service we're always obsessed with the bbc uh here and media folk in the uk are you've come from overseas um do you think we don't know what we've got or that we're just

16:28Juan Delgado: no i was gonna say you know there's a there's a number of things that to me signify britishness and one of those is definitely the BBC and the type of content that it creates, sort of like how Hollywood represents a lot of, you know, what American, what foreigners picture America to be. And therefore, I think it's an important ambassador, an important channel of what, you know, the UK still is able to influence in the rest of the world. I actually didn't know it was in that many countries, which is surprising to me.

17:03Matt Deegan: Do you think it's something that the BBC should be more aggressive overseas with? Obviously, it's something that's well known everywhere.

17:11Juan Delgado: Yeah, I come from a world where media is self-funded. And we were just talking about the Telegraph. And in the US, most newspapers are either dying or dead. There's only a couple that have subsided. And one, the Washington Post is sort of like in its bare bones right now. So in that sense, I think the UK is way more healthier market for media in general. and the BBC probably contributes to that. So I would say that it is important and that even in media consumption domestically, it creates a layer of independence between what we publish in football and what somebody else will. Therefore, it's an important part of the ecosystem domestically and internationally.

17:54Matt Deegan: Maggie, do you think we should read into anything into charter renewal? This is sort of status quo for the government. Do you think the government are going to be brave with charter renewal or just roll over a little bit like it tends to?

18:08Maggie Brown: Well, I think that we've got two years really to work out what they want to do. What I keep going back to, I keep rereading the, you know, the green paper and all the rest of it that's come out. And again, Lisa Nandy says, our vision is for a BBC that is trusted, loved and belonged to us all. sustainably funded, strong presence in every nation. So, I mean, what more can highest quality children's programs, impartial news and documentaries, known for its unique strengths. Now this is what she said, and this is kind of repeated in a way. When you get through the questionnaire, you get to the more wobbly bits where people aren't doing this or they're not doing that.

18:54Maggie Brown: And, you know, the amount of people actually paying the The licence fee has gone down by 2 million or something. And I mean, all of that is problematic. So how are we going to get the funds in and blah, blah, blah? But it's not, how can I put it, a cruel approach, we don't need you. It's quite the opposite. It's a sort of careful approach.

19:16Matt Deegan: They don't have to be that endorsing, do they, in previous governments? I mean, there has been.

19:21Maggie Brown: I mean, it's nowhere like this sense of, for example, when in 2010, when there was a kind of hung parliament in a way, and the kind of discussions that went on to 2017 before the next charter, they were very depressing to listen to with people who ought to have known better saying quite stupid things, in my opinion, which really I had to bite my tongue quite a lot. This time, I actually feel that everybody knows now we have to treat it with care. We have to curate it so that it can go forward. But we don't actually want to lose its value. And so I like this approach a great deal. I mean, I know the Labour government is having all sorts of problems and goodness knows what will happen.

20:11Maggie Brown: But I think it's actually a pretty common view now.

20:15Juan Delgado: And also the innovation that comes from the content creation of the BBC is impressive. They're not at the forefront of, you know, AI or take your buzzword. But the way they approach in creating content, even in our field, is, you know, we've worked with them in the past. They listen to what we do in the way they, you know, think about creating video content so that it ends up on YouTube in vertical formats versus on a linear channel.

20:42Matt Deegan: Well, it's been a week since the Banerjee and all three media$8 billion merger was announced. Now the dust is settling and the questions are getting sharper. Banerjee's Marco Bassetti is CEO. All three medias Jane Turton becomes his deputy. Redbird IMI is Jeff Zucker, but the former CNN boss. He becomes the chairman. And this week Banerjee's investors got their first briefing. One, consolidation is the only growth when you're a super indie. Now we're kind of ginormous mega indies. What did you make of the discussion this week about the merger? I don't think they intended to do what I'm about to describe,

21:21Juan Delgado: but I think it's been lucky that they have. Paramount's ended up with Warner, and that means Netflix needs something. I don't know if what the merger of these two companies has created is interesting to them because it's mainly foreign content. Netflix are everywhere. Yeah. And also Netflix's international growth ambitions are fueled by international content creation. So I think they're trying to line up for something. And for a business like Netflix, you unfortunately or fortunately have to take over big targets. Otherwise, it just doesn't quite work out on the math because their market cap, the amount of money they spend, et cetera.

22:02Juan Delgado: So it probably has and smells of what it is, but that's my take. Also, when you merge two companies like that, it takes a while to weed out the changes that you're going to make, the issues, the content creation. The amount of hits that sit in that channel, I've had a chance to talk to, I think her name is Jane at All3Media. Very impressive. They run a very impressive operation.

22:25Matt Deegan: So you think Banerjee are going to do all the hard work of tidying it all up and then Netflix will come in for a swallow?

22:30Juan Delgado: Yeah, because Netflix will try to come back or go back into the office and make sure that their plan's all right. But then they're going to have to figure it out.

22:38Matt Deegan: Well, historically, Netflix haven't been an acquirer. Obviously, the deal, the potential deal they had with Warner Brothers, do you think that's excited them internally and maybe turned their head a little bit that they can't just do all organic growth?

22:51Juan Delgado: I think so. Yeah. I think so. I mean, obviously, there was a limit to what they were able to pay. Paramount probably had more to lose and therefore ended up paying more. But the amount of content that you need now to compete with YouTube, which technically gets it for free even from people from us, or any of the media outlets that are out there with tech platforms like Meta means that you've got to bet big and you have to have a five rows of content of which 20 % 80-20 rule will work and will be hits and another 80 % is just there to feed the algorithm on a Friday night when you're sitting there with your kids or your family like I do most Fridays and try to find something to watch.

23:28Matt Deegan: Jeff Zucker becoming the chairman, that was kind of an interesting choice. People think a lot of him about CNN, but he has a big entertainment background as well in broadcast television. Is he a good chairman to have? I think so.

23:41Juan Delgado: I've never met him personally, but I do know the guy's a Redbird, more on the sports investment side. And, you know, he's an impressive individual. I am sure that his point of view on things and how CNN became what it is being targeted now to actually turn the whole thing around into endorsing Trump is probably the thing that most matters to Redbird and how they're going to turn around this machine, that also needs to have a point of view, needs to create content that matters for Netflix to be interested, or whoever it is, right? It's not just Netflix to buy. It could be Amazon. It could be even Meta.

24:20Matt Deegan: Maggie, obviously there's some kind of core British pillars in this mega merger. Stu Lambert's in there. Kudos in there. There's a danger that that fire goes out a little bit by becoming a big organization.

24:35Maggie Brown: Yes, I mean, there does, but I tend to agree with you. I mean, I think that it's inevitable, really. And I don't find myself, I mean, the independent sector and the production sector seems to manage to do pretty well, actually. I mean, at the end of the day. So I would have thought that it's just another business deal here.

24:55Juan Delgado: Yeah, people tell you, you know, from the heyday of 2021, 2022, when there was all these production companies and all this money being thrown out of content creation, that things are tight now. And yet, you've never had more content. You've never had more hit series from, I was actually surprised to find out that they produce Peaky Blinders from that, which I need to watch for some time. And now you mean the film.

25:16Maggie Brown: No, no, extra series.

25:18Juan Delgado: And everything else there in between. So I do think that that appetite for content and growth will continue. you can see it in the way platforms like Meta or even Facebook, which to me skews a bit older, behave, that they're de-incentivizing the use of user-generated content to professionally produce content like what we're doing here today because it matters more to users. Probably they stay on for longer, they watch longer, rather than just watching some kitten video or, in our case, some kippy-uppy that you watch everywhere.

25:50Maggie Brown: They're watching us.

25:51Juan Delgado: Hopefully.

25:52Matt Deegan: We're still available for big Netflix deal. I'm hoping for that. Okay, the BBC has tweaked its terms with indies recently to allow podcasts to leave the corporation. This week, it got its first test. From April, the Alice James and John Robbins podcast will carry advertising on Spotify, Apple Podcasts and other platforms. A first for a kind of BBC commission show. It's sort of being sort of picked up from its BBC roots and sort of transferred over here, but taking the listeners with it. Maybe that's quite different for the BBC. The BBC get a cut. they get 10 % of the revenue and they also get a version for 5 Live

26:29Maggie Brown: But the BBC's had it first hasn't it? I think this is perhaps one of the indicators of how things will evolve, it doesn't particularly bother me at all I mean it's a different way of funding it may be co-funding or it may be just deals that happen and grow from things the BBC does have a very commercial amount, so you'll know anyway So this is another way that it can maybe, if, for example, there are not major increases available, and they are talking about maybe changing the kind of license fee level or whatever it is that they're going to do in future, they'll have to find other ways of funding, but without undermining the essential creativity and all the things you're talking about, which make the BBC special.

27:18Maggie Brown: And I think they've got clever enough people who can do that.

27:21Juan Delgado: it's like any media business you got to diversify revenues it's one way of doing it it actually would be detrimental to my business if on the sports football side they start you know selling ads across some of that stuff because they still have a really big audience but would you take one of

27:37Matt Deegan: their football if they sort of put one of their football podcasts up or said actually maybe it should live outside the bbc you know we're focusing on some other things yeah do you take

27:44Juan Delgado: I think we would, specifically because there are very few brands in sports, probably ESPN being one of the others, that have a global appeal. The BBC is respected for their football coverage. Obviously, the Premier League's the richest, most successful league in the world. And the monetization of that global audience is something that, from sports, is something that not a lot of people can do. We do it in a lot of countries around the world, and therefore it would be super interesting.

28:14Matt Deegan: OK, well, let's talk more about that in the next part. We'll see you in a sec.

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29:27Juan Delgado: There's one place for the newest drops in wellness and performance and the biggest sale of the year. It's The Drop by GNC, curating the best of what's new, handpicked by the pros who know what works. And right now, get it all, buy one, get one, 50 % off during the semi-annual LiveWell sale. From crushing workouts to leveling up your nutrition and everything in between, get the best deals on the latest innovations. All the newness is all on sale right now during the LiveWell sale on The Drop by GNC.

29:59Matt Deegan: Welcome back. I hear some stories we've been talking about in the club this week. Is the junk food watershed advertising ban ineffective? That's what some health experts say, with research suggesting awareness of foods covered by the ban has actually increased as brands pivot to sponsorships and content that fall outside of the rules. Mail on Sunday staff have taken the stand in the Prince Harry phone hacking trial this week as the case enters a more granular phase. Prince Harry's legal team is probing specific stories published about him and asking who knew what when. Well, this one, it continues to run and run.

30:34Matt Deegan: And Channel 4's new social experiment, handcuffed last pair standing, has divided critics and younger viewers right down the middle. The press hated it, but 16 to 34s love it. With episode one up 141 % on the slot average. It's in Channel 4's top 10 unscripted streaming launches of all time. Maybe it's time for more commissioners to jump on the bandwagon. Links to all of these stories are available on our sub stack. It's free to sign up to. Just head to themediaclub.com. That's themediaclub.com. Maggie and Wan are still with me. Have you seen this show? Have you seen Handcuffed? Yes, I have. Yes, I have.

31:11Maggie Brown: And I'm very interested in this because, in particular, the person who's helped create it is one David Glover. And he is celebrated because of his other work for Channel 4, including, oh, golly, what is it? Gogglebox. Gogglebox, yeah. Gogglebox. But he's done a load of other things as well. He's always been experimenting. I don't know if you remember, he actually crashed a Boeing plane. this was about 2010 oh yes to see who you did survive yes where's the best place to sit on an airplane and he actually

31:46Juan Delgado: crashed it like for real yes he actually crashed it for

31:48Maggie Brown: real in America in a desert and it nearly didn't crash I mean he's like that but he actually is a very creative and now a very grown up person obviously I don't think he would crash a plane again but he did do that and that was the sort of a channel full kind of thing But the point I'm trying to make is that he has a wide range of things. I mean, he's also been doing serious documentaries too. And he's just one of those people. So the real point about this program, which is dividing opinion, I can't say I particularly like it, is that it's all about who you put on together, how you actually find the right people.

32:30Maggie Brown: And this is a real art. And that's how he got the first series of Gogglebox going. You had to actually make sure that all these people would work together. And so he's created these really strange kind of double relationships, which in many ways seem a bit spooky. And I don't really like watching people going to the loo together. I mean, it's just a little bit unpleasant, I feel. But on the other hand, I don't mind seeing Jonathan Ross about. and I think this is the first series. I suspect it's going to change and be slightly adjusted, let's put it that way. And I think the editing is rather crude at the moment.

33:15Maggie Brown: You realise that something has happened and they're having to sort of make some peace with somebody and then you say chop-chop and you're back into the series. So there's a lot that is not experimental but I think it's going to run and run.

33:32Matt Deegan: Channel 4 haven't had loads of hits recently. No, they have not. We talk about Gogglebox a lot. That's an old show that still does well for them. That is the challenge, isn't it? TV's a hit business.

33:42Maggie Brown: Well, I mean, they have had a couple of quite sparse years and as you know, their revenue fell quite dramatically in 24. And of course, they've got a whole new set of people running it and they have, I mean, from the choices they've made, it's quite clear that from the chairman to the managing director downwards, they are trying to make some money, it seems to me. So they're in the next phase of kind of growing up and this just is so typical of Channel 4 that they have got hold of a good idea and it will be developed, I think.

34:23Matt Deegan: Have you seen it?

34:24Juan Delgado: I have not, no. I was trying to remember the last big show I saw from Channel 4. I think Skins was from Channel 4. That was my first tour in the U.K. And I remember watching it, you know, coming from America. And I was like, man, TV in the U.S. is nothing like this. And I remember being back in the U.S. that MTV or somebody wanted to take a version of Skins into the U.S. And then the execs watched the first pilot. And they were like, oh, my God, we can't show this. We'll get butchered. so they had to like tone it down so that it wasn't you know as uh graphical as the one here was well

34:59Matt Deegan: it's worth i've watched a bit of it i had the news coming up on the show i mean jonathan ross interesting interesting person to pop on presenting not not obvious but works quite well um but one if you're if your channel and you're getting out of 16 to 34 is interested in your

35:14Juan Delgado: programming you've got to be happy with that yes we are um i think uh to maggie's point in an era where video, both vertical and let's put it YouTube as a common denominator, but it's not the only platform, is commanding the biggest surface and therefore the biggest revenue, at least in our business. The chemistry that exists between creators or talent that you're putting out there is probably the most critical thing. In our field, football has a lot of talent because there's 11 guys on the pitch on Pick Your Team that are always out there. They're huge celebrities on their own. But when they come off the field, either because they're retired or they want to do something while they're playing, it's really, really hard.

36:04Juan Delgado: And you see huge stars like Cristiano Ronaldo trying it, built a huge YouTube channel. But if you watch the content, it's not as great. Hence, he's not getting the sponsor. He's not getting the brands that other creators like KSI to take a whole load of another example, do get involved in their content. So it's the way any media business is going to be built in the future. It's how we've built our business. We own still a ton of very storied websites like Goal or publications in the UK like Mundial, but where the world is going is video consumption, both vertical and horizontal for me.

36:43Matt Deegan: Well, let's talk a bit more about your business. Obviously, 100 days to go until the World Cup. You must be pleased we're in a World Cup year.

36:49Juan Delgado: Oh, yes. Yes, yes, yes. So I was explaining before, our business is quite cyclical. We usually put out a new financial watermark, if you will, every four years. This year is like no other, mainly because it's the World Cup, but also because it's the World Cup in probably the world's biggest ATM. we've set out to build consciously a business in america we've set up a office in new york we've now you know built a whole plethora of shows as i was describing before is football is soccer

37:23Matt Deegan: finally coming to the u.s are they can we have an f1 moment for something yeah it's already there

37:28Juan Delgado: it's already there i just think that the the way in which people view football in europe which is you know, as a religion and you follow your grandparents, you know, football team. If you grew up in Blackburn, like, you know, it doesn't matter if Blackburn gets relegated, you're still going to have it tattooed on your shoulder. That doesn't happen in the U.S. In the U.S., soccer consumption is a lot more cultural. It's a lot more, you know, for the soccer curious, but they're still watching games. They're still consuming it. They're still going to MLS games, even though it's probably not the best product compared to the Premier League.

38:01Juan Delgado: and therefore the market is humongous, let alone the fact that you have folks like me, Hispanics, who grew up with a football background and will tend to consume more of it. I think that just like 94 did, this World Cup will be another reminder to the football or the soccer curious in America that is a sport that is continuing to grow and that will continue to grow in the U.S. Is it going to be as big as the NFL? No. That's a whole other level.

38:30Maggie Brown: And women in American football.

38:32Juan Delgado: Yeah, actually, women's football for our business, but I would classify it overall, although I don't sit in every boardroom, is bigger in the U.S. than anywhere else. We have a good football business here for women around WSL. Obviously, the success of the English team has helped in that. But women and the U.S. women's national team have been so successful in the U.S. that actually it's a much more advanced league, has a lot more money linked to sponsorship, and therefore a lot more clients in our business come out of the U.S. from a women's soccer point of view than they do here. It also opens up new categories.

39:10Juan Delgado: So four years ago when we first started setting up our women's football business, we would have never gotten near a cosmetics brand. Now we count Elf, L 'Oreal and a few others as, you know, because it's really hard now as a media platform or a content creator to reach young women. And therefore, one way is through women's football.

39:32Matt Deegan: I think your business is interesting because it's obviously more editorial. It's not rights and it's not putting TV shows on. And probably historically, a lot of football, particularly in the UK, came from game related activity. Now you see a lot of social activity. you see youtubers themselves launching teams or um you know successive soccer aid or all of those sorts of things it's a it's an entertainment brand and not just about yeah you can build a whole

39:57Juan Delgado: business around you know the the game itself without showing the ball moving on the pitch so to give you some idea of at least that the skill we've managed to build so we do about 100 million in revenue, which if you compare it to a Premier League team in removing the shirt deal, so Nike or Adidas, were no bigger or no smaller than some of the top four clubs. And therefore, and we carry no highlights. So the fact that you're able to create opinion content, entertaining content, cover different verticals as I was describing for with women's and build a business that is the scale of our business is amazing.

40:40Juan Delgado: If you added rights to that, would it really matter? Probably not. We're not in the game of like showing you the highlight that just came, you know, in from last night. And we're happy to create a story around, I mentioned Ryan Reynolds being my plus one, around a story like Wrexham without showing the highlights from, you know, they almost beat Chelsea on Sunday or Saturday, I can't remember. And therefore, that's the storyline. That's the angle. Eventually, I do think our business will probably evolve towards that, but it's more because the rights holders themselves, clubs and leagues, find it interesting that we've been able to build a business to this scale alongside their success.

41:19Juan Delgado: And therefore, we're tending to help them in thinking about how they take a sponsor like Expedia or Holtes.com with Arsenal and be able to use some of the formats that we've created to deliver more distribution than they already do through the sleeve sponsorship that they have.

41:35Matt Deegan: So we talked a bit about the specialist streaming services and Premier League's trying their own director consumer in Singapore. Some FIFA Plus stuff happening as well. We've got Gold Hanger on Netflix and the rest is football. There's still a movable feast with where this material appears.

41:54Juan Delgado: Yeah, our thesis is you have to build content in a way in which fans want to consume it. And it's not the platform. It's not the format itself or the length. It is all about if you're in the tube and you have 30 seconds to consume something before you leave the station, we have something for you. Or if you're at home and you have nothing to watch and you want to watch a podcast that's similar to this but it's more sort of Joe Rogan-esque style, we have that too. and it's different types of consumption that ultimately allow you to build a holistic view around it. Truth be told, our business was a spin out of DAZN.

42:42Juan Delgado: I mentioned earlier we were back for private equity, so we consummated the transaction in 2020. DAZN has built a great business out of buying and ultimately creating a subscription business around live rights. However, that's not our business. Gary Lineker and what he's able to do with the goal hanger is another way to go at it. He's a legend of his own. We don't target the demo that he does. We go younger. We have a show very sort of along the same lines as the rest of football, but it's focused on a younger demographic with young creators that play games, trivia games. So it's just depending on the focus that you want to give it and what brands are really going after.

43:24Juan Delgado: We're going after brands that target young fans.

43:26Matt Deegan: And finally, World Cup in America, They've had to add in an extra ad break into the game. It is the world's biggest ATM. Hydration breaks.

43:35Juan Delgado: It's going to be hot too, that's fine.

43:37Matt Deegan: Clever wheeze to get another break in.

43:40Juan Delgado: Yeah, I mean, look, it's obviously everybody's trying to fill their boots, including FIFA and the domestic broadcasters, Fox and Telemundo. So you shouldn't expect anything less. I imagine by the time VAR gets involved in everything else, maybe there's a couple others. Who knows? and the demand for live sports in america or anywhere else in the world but in america is still huge and therefore you got to take advantage of it because it's limited in our case in you know gold hangers case and in others it's not like we have tons of inventory to go around but there you're in for the 90 minutes maybe a bit longer if you know if you can extend that's it

44:18Matt Deegan: so every second counts so you grew up in columbia spent a lot of time in america in new york now you're in London in the UK, who are you supporting in the World Cup?

44:27Juan Delgado: I would support Colombia all the way. So if there was a Colombia-US match, I've actually spent more time in the US than I have in Colombia, it would be Colombia. I don't have high hopes for Colombia though. They've played a great Copa America twice, haven't been able to win it.

44:45Matt Deegan: And your family sticking with UK teams or are they supporting America?

44:50Maggie Brown: Oh, well, no, they all love Arsenal. So they're very English.

44:54Juan Delgado: Actually, just commercially, who I would support, although I'm going to jinx it now, would be England. I think it would be a great story to the same line as Britishness and the BBC. England is football. Football is England. And I hope they have a great tournament.

45:15Maggie Brown: I mean, the tragedy, actually, if I'm half Welsh and I live in Wales, is the fact that rugby has kind of almost kind of lost its way in Wales. Once a great rugby nation seems to all, you know, disappear. These things will come back.

45:30Matt Deegan: They will come back. Right. Just enough time for the Audio Network Media Quiz.

45:38Matt Deegan: Three media stories connected by one theme and then shoehorned into the format of an existing media property. This week, it's long lost revenue. I'll describe three media companies with a complicated relationship with money, but in the style of the ITV documentary Long Lost Family, where tearful reunions happen after years of separation. And Alex at Audio Network has taken that emotionally devastating brief from producer Matt and has created a playlist of music to score today's game. It's a best of three, so you just have to buzz in with your names if you know the story. So Maggie you will say.

46:14Maggie Brown: Maggie.

46:15Matt Deegan: Juan you will say. Juan. Let's play Long Lost Revenue. Paul has been waiting. For five years, now he's poured money into a dream. A dream of reaching the nation without losing over£130 million. But this week, there was news of progress. Who's this? Which story? Go on. Yes.

46:40Juan Delgado: GB News.

46:41Matt Deegan: This is GB News. They put their accounts in this week and they showed their losses have narrowed. Still losing money, but revenues up 58%. Maggie is still losing£22 million a year. Still a long way to go, but it's probably not all about the money, is it, for Sir Paul?

47:00Maggie Brown: Well, he's got a lot, hasn't he? And you could say there's a bit of an improvement. And of course, you know, there's all the politics to pay for. No, I'm sorry. I wasn't really thinking about it. I just made a guess. I always lose these. Don't worry.

47:17Juan Delgado: What puzzles me about launching a new broadcast news brand in this day and age in a market like the UK, that's why I sort of thought it might have been that. It's kind of like a suicide. I don't know how much money he has, but I hope he has a lot.

47:32Maggie Brown: I think he's in for a disappointment

47:34Matt Deegan: the way to make a small fortune in media is to start with a large fortune we know that's the case okay here's reunion number two Morton always knew there was something missing he'd built something remarkable a subscription audio platform 1.2 million paying subscribers seven countries but audio alone wasn't enough and this week Morton found the people he'd been looking for buzz in

48:00Juan Delgado: Oh my god, I don't know.

48:03Matt Deegan: That's a hard one. So there's an audio company called Podomo. See this story? So Podomo, a subscription audio business in a few different markets in Europe, has hired a suite of TV execs from Netflix, BBC, and Disney, all based in London. It's also acquired a German video podcast label, Arc Studio. If you're in the audio industry, have you got to get into video?

48:27Juan Delgado: I was, yeah, now I remember the story. Audio to me is hard. We've tried it in many shapes and forms. And unless you have the scale of global or an iHeart or something like that, you will have to have a lot of subs. I don't know if 1.2 million subs is a lot in our business. It's not that many to sell against. And therefore, I would find it really, really hard. But we also don't have the DNA and the web that you require to sell into audio.

49:03Matt Deegan: Okay. Question number three. Thousands of podcasters are looking to be reunited with sponsors after being told that their dynamic ad insertion provider has stopped with no warning. Who was it? I'm sorry.

49:20Maggie Brown: I have no idea.

49:22Juan Delgado: I have no idea, but it's not Google because they're killing it.

49:24Matt Deegan: So this is Podbean, a podcast network that lots of people use. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the hosting platform abruptly switched off dynamic ad insertion across Europe, probably something to do with GDPR. I mean, it's hard for U.S. companies particularly to deal with kind of European regulations. Also the different languages.

49:44Maggie Brown: I mean, you know, it's not common.

49:46Juan Delgado: This comment didn't come from me. It came from actually one of my board members who was very American. And he's probably one of the best product people I've ever worked with. And his phrase was, the worst thing to happen to digital media is GDPR. Because from our point of view, we build great looking websites and apps. But when you consume them in Europe, especially Western Europe, you get all these messages. And it's not this UK, by the way. In the Nellons, we work a lot in betting. So in the Nellons, you have to push twice to accept conditions if you, A, want to be cookied. be that you're over 24 years old and can be served betting advertising.

50:27Juan Delgado: And in a world in which user journeys matter so much and the friction of that user journey matters so much to create that level of difficulty for brands that have existed like the Telegraph since World War II, man, it's like not worth it. I understand people's private. There's ways to take care of that without antagonizing the user journey.

50:53Matt Deegan: Do you think the, because obviously the response to that is it's good to secure people's data and you don't know what's being swapped around. That's why I said it and said it. And sold to other people. Do you think actually where we've got to now with some of the AI solutions, there's ways to achieve the same aim or to mostly achieve the same aim and deliver a better experience for consumers?

51:13Juan Delgado: I think so. Just like with any new technology, we had huge websites and then Facebook came out and social media came out and we built a business on that. And then TikTok came out and we built a business on that. So to me, AI is just another layer in which us and every other media company is going to end up building a business. Maybe that is a more seamless experience for people to get the information they want without having to jump all these hoops to be able to share their information. The fact that the real powerful LLMs are a subscription-based paid product will probably mean that you get over that.

51:51How that surface will be able to allow our brands to monetize that audience, I'm not quite sure yet.

51:59Juan Delgado: We're not licensing to OpenAI or anybody else. We've had conversations about it. We're the biggest football publisher in the world. But it's not quite there yet. I also think that depends on the evolution of the technology beyond English language, because we live in a world here in the U.S. and a few other countries where, you know, English is the world. But when you run a polishing business like we do in the Middle East in Arabic and you see how the LLMs we have there, they're very basic still. Like Arabic is a complicated language, et cetera. So to me, that will need to evolve a little bit more for it to be widespread.

52:34Matt Deegan: Well, congratulations. Obviously, first time luck. you've won the quiz well done as a special prize you get to get the media club if you can reinterpret the media club maybe for ESPN or another sports version and sort of the licensing for that and next time you're on you can tell us how you've done with that

52:51Juan Delgado: that'd be great

52:52Matt Deegan: well thanks to Maggie and Juan thanks again to Alex Audio Network for supplying today's music remember Audio Network can do that for you as well just head to audionetwork.com right thank you both Maggie where can people keep up with you what's your social network of choice at the moment or are you

53:10Maggie Brown: well I mean the iPaper I'm spending an awful lot of time with the iPaper that I see has been nominated for newspaper of the year it's rather old fashioned I know to say that I'm about to actually depart to Wales where I shall be sorting things out after a terrible winter so I'm not going to be watching well I will be watching S4C of course which is greatly disliked by people who don't speak Welsh but I shall be up there. I'm quite close to Rex. I might even go.

53:40Juan Delgado: You should pop into a game. I hear it's great.

53:42Maggie Brown: Yes, it is. My son's been.

53:44Matt Deegan: Juan, how can people keep up with Football Co and what you guys do?

53:48Juan Delgado: Footballco.com. We're on LinkedIn. I'm on LinkedIn. You know, it's probably easy, very easy to find us. Goal.com, all our different media properties. Great.

53:58Matt Deegan: Well, thank you both for coming. Thank you. Thank you for watching and listening. My name is Matt Deegan. The producer was Matt Hill. It was a Rethink Audio production with video support from Podcast Discovery. I'll see you next week.

54:23Juan Delgado: There's one place for the newest drops in wellness and performance and the biggest sale of the year. It's The Drop by GNC, curating the best of what's new, handpicked by the pros who know what works. And right now, get it all, buy one, get one 50 % off during the semi-annual LiveWell sale. From crushing workouts to leveling up to nutrition and everything in between, get the best deals on the latest innovations. All the newness is all on sale right now during the LiveWell sale on The Drop by GNC. So retrospectors, what historical events are we ticking off on this week's run of Today in History?

55:00Maggie Brown: On Monday, the anniversary of the day Stalin's daughter defected from the Soviet Union.

55:05Juan Delgado: On Tuesday, wherever you're from, whether you've got a criminal record, we don't care, come join the French Foreign Legion. On Wednesday, were the Luddites actually ahead of their time?

55:14Maggie Brown: On Thursday, yes, we Canberra. Why Australia's capital isn't Sydney or Melbourne.

55:19Juan Delgado: And on Friday, how a 3 ,000-year-old civilisation came to a violent end. That's Today in History with The Retrospectors. 10 minutes each weekday, wherever you get your podcasts.