Tess & Claudia Wrongfoot The Media and Leave Strictly

0:28Hello, welcome to the Media Club. I'm your host Matt Deegan. on the cards, but who wants it? And why has Ofcom rode back on its broadcasting code? Plus, in the Audio Network Media Quiz, we pitch some new business ideas. That's all coming up in this edition of the Media Club. Come on in.

0:46Hello, both. Hello. Thanks for having me. Nice to see you, Alex. Nice to see you for the first time. Nice to be here. Thank you. So, MD Intertalent, you deal with lots of people all of the time, but now you're in the Media Club. Who is your plus one? who is the one person you're bringing in with you? Well, I didn't go for one of our talents. I thought that'd be very unfair to pick one. So I've gone for a talent who has been on my radar this week. So I went to the premiere last week of Springsteen, Deliver Me From Nowhere, which I absolutely loved. And everyone's talking about Jeremy Allen White.

1:17But I think the real star of this film is Jeremy Strong. I think his performance is outstanding. And not only do I think that he could win an Oscar this year when he got so close last year, but obviously announced that he's going to be in the new the sequel I guess to the social network the social reckoning he's going to be Mark Zuckerberg in it yeah and I think what a week for him he takes on these incredible roles most recently often real people and I just think he's one of the most outstanding actors right now and I think that he's clearly having a brilliant week so this is Kendall from Succession if you're a fan of that was he quite intense at the premiere because everyone says he's quite intense guy Probably.

1:58He was wearing a baseball cap, which I think is a very cool thing to wear to a film premiere. And to be fair to him, I was very lucky enough to go to the party afterwards and he was, from what I could see, the one star of the film that came to the party and was very sociable by the looks of things. I think he does seem very intense, but I think that he's definitely going to be the person that, listen, everyone's great. Stephen Graham is outstanding in this film as well, as always. But his portrayal of Bruce Springsteen's manager, John Landau is exceptional when he got some of the biggest moments in the film.

2:31Well, a very welcome addition to the club, he would be. And broadcast, Heather Fallon, hello. Hello. Who would you like to add as your plus one this week? I've also gone down the talent route this week. The only thing that we're talking about in the office at the moment is Celebrity Traitors. Today, it actually hit 7.5 million overnight viewers, which is the biggest BBC One show of the year so far. So I had to go with a celebrity traitor. But the person that I've chosen is Celia Imri. I think she's having an incredible week or so. Very bravely farting on national television for one. But also I've been seeing her everywhere this week.

3:15She's just been announced for a new Sky drama with another traitor, Nick Muhammad. And she's also been announced for a Christmas film that's coming up. So I think she's having a great week. Do you think she's got a chance of winning? I actually think that she's the only one that said all three of them so far. She hasn't stuck with it. None of them. But none of them have stuck with it. Who's going to be brave enough to vote out Celia? That's what I want to know. She could win that moment. That parting moment could win. I guess the BAFTA must-see moment of the year. She could win on all fronts at this point.

3:48But we reckon it is a post-approved fart. my understanding is I might be wrong that they asked if it was okay to keep in because I think it is you know to some people might be a bit too embarrassing but I love the fact it's very brave of her I hope that's true because I love the idea that she went yeah go on then it would have been a lovely meeting to have right on the agenda just the fart who are you going to be including that in it and then it got carried on do you think she'll I think I think if the Faithfuls have any shot of winning it would be her maybe Nick because he's been maybe more intelligent than he's letting off.

4:23And maybe the Joes. I love the Joes. If the Faithfuls were to win, I think those are the ones that will keep us in the game. I would love a Joe Wilkinson, Joe Marler travelogue thing. I'm here for that. Their friendship is gorgeous. I think that's pretty much guaranteed. Okay, when we return, let's talk Strictly.

4:47Welcome back to the Media Club. Tess Daly has been presenting the BBC's flagship, Strictly Come Dancing, for 21 years. Now she's leaving at the end of this season, along with Claudia Winkleman, her co-host. Scott Bryan, a friend of the show, posted this on TikTok and Instagram today. I think one of the most surprising things about Claudia Winkleman and Tess Daly leaving Strictly is just the fact that it happened randomly on an Instagram reel uploaded on a Thursday morning. normally how this goes is that a newspaper would have it on their front page then the broadcaster would be scrambling a statement together but then you would also have a carefully curated statement by the presenters after that with this Instagram reel was that to get ahead of a newspaper dropping a story why also currently it's about 10 52 in the morning on the Thursday why has there not been any statement from the BBC about this.

5:42Normally, journalists would get an email to say, hiya, these presenters are leaving, we wish them well, thank you for the contribution, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Not happened. It's a bit weird. It is odd. I mean, I think every kind of entertainment media journalist in the UK was suddenly rushing to Instagram rather than checking their emails, which I suppose from PR's perspective is not what you want to happen. So what Scott was saying was what we also assumed at Broadcast, which was that, you know, one of maybe the tabloids was about to break this and they were trying to get ahead of it. But, you know, if it was something that you would assume is something that was happening in the works for a while, maybe they would have announced at the start of the series, because if anything, that might encourage more audiences to come because people are so attached to Tess and Claudia, you know, they've been there for 20 years.

6:36And I think in Claudia's Instagram post, there was some, she said that there were some rumblings because they had been there for so long. And I suppose Claudia's, especially her stock value is so high at the moment. You know, we were just talking about the traitors. And, you know, it could be, I'm, you know, that it's just come to a natural conclusion. But again, with what Scott was saying, the timing is just strange because you would think that it would either be as a release, potentially at the start of the series. So it's a big goodbye finale rather than halfway through the show. And there was a statement eventually put out on the media centre, but at like midday.

7:16So there was quite a significant delay. So it is a little strange. That would suggest the BBC did not know it was going to happen. Yes. Because even if they were like, let them say it and then we'll follow up with the release. You would expect that kind of within the hour. Yes. Within the half hour even. What happened? I mean, I'm not surprised that they've decided to leave. I think they've been there a long time. And I would say they're both smart women and they've got smart teams around them. And I would say there's a thing about going out on top as opposed to overstaying your welcome. And I suspect this is a good time to go out on top.

7:54I think it's also not a surprise to do it where they can get a good goodbye. Because I think you don't want to cheat the audiences where you don't get that moment to say this is the last hurrah. However, I do think it was a very strange situation this morning. I, like Scott, feel maybe, maybe a newspaper had it, was going to run it. They wanted to be there. It's such a big story. And perhaps felt they had to run it today before someone else got it. So I assume everyone tried to get ahead of it, which feels then the scrambling happens. And I guess from the BBC's point of view, the press release they put out has to be perfect and they have to take more time over it.

8:34But I suspect maybe Tess and Claudia didn't feel like they had the time. So I'm not surprised that we're going to get new presenters. I think that actually could be a good thing for the show. Keep it fresh. but I do think that something has clearly happened to make it happen on a, what was it, 10am on a Thursday morning. What that is, will we ever know? But I think if it was already confirmed, they probably would have announced it pre the final show. Heather, it seems like there would have been a disagreement between the stars and the BBC. The fact that wasn't aligned and that they decided actually we think it's important to go for it So we're just going to do it and then we'll force everybody else to have to follow our lead.

9:19It does seem like there was some dissonance between, you know, often when there are these big announcements like that, everything runs very smoothly. And, you know, as we were saying, you get that release and everyone's, you know, put their quotes together. Because, you know, if you, you know, when we get a commissioning story or something like that, you know, we're going back and forth. We're waiting for all the statements to come through. So everything's nice and aligned so that it all goes out. so it does seem like there was some rushing and the other thing that did feel odd was if they were planning to leave and it wasn't they weren't planning to announce that today but at some point at what point was that going to be because there's not that much longer of the show left there's another like what four or five weeks my feeling would be that you announce it on the show yeah not on the sofa at 10am on a Thursday and maybe in Blackpool or something right yeah you make it you make it into a big moment and I think they'll be gutted that they've not got that moment now.

10:13Yeah. And I think they deserve that moment. But 100%, there is another reason as to why they've done it this morning. So, fantasy, Strictly Come Dancing, who would you put in? I've got a lot of cards. It would be great. Has your phone just been buzzing and people going, any chat about it? It has. No, it has. And I think that I've spoken to a few friends who are agents at other agencies and their phone has been buzzing too. So, yes, we have a lot of thoughts and ideas, as to some of our clients that could do it. I would assume that they're not going to start really looking at new presenters until this series is wrapped early next year.

10:51Does that stop me or any of you from getting in touch pretty soon? It won't stop me, of course. But I think the names that I've heard that aren't our clients, I'll just say, the names that I've heard buzzing around already today are names like Oti, Rylan, Zoe Ball, Clara Amfo. So these are all people that will definitely be in the house. It's one of the biggest gigs on television. But it takes a certain kind of person to host it and a certain kind of person that has huge live experience. I think that's going to be crucial and fun. And you've got to love the show. I think one of the things that Claudia, you know they love this show.

11:29It doesn't seem like work for them. So I think the BBC are going to have to really work out who those people are and where they go from here. and but yeah listen today is one of those days they're very rare but I love them as an agent where suddenly you go oh I've got I've got something to do today and and it is plotting and planning as to like who we think that we have that might be the best people to replace and would you pitch like a double act or would you look at separate talent that could pair well together yeah i think both i think i think it depends on i mean do they want a double act again there's no reason why it has to be two it could be one could be three but um we would look at that if we felt we had a natural thing i mean there could also be a cross-agency thing going on where if i've got somebody i know their best mate who could also be right is it another agency we could do that thing we go let's go in together but um no at the moment we're we're just sort of working out not so much who the right person could be from ours but just trying to get inside intel as to like what they might be looking for.

12:33There's no point going to the important people at the BBC and just throwing any old names. I mean that's just going to annoy everyone. What we really need to do. And they might not have thought about it yet. This might have been pushed on them a little bit what they want the next series to be. They wouldn't have thought about it yet. But does it stop us from wanting to have that conversation? No. We're going to make them think about it. Good, good, good, good. And Heather, BBC is always in drama. There's always trouble. Suddenly they've got a great hit show. And this is a talent management issue as well for their big star that's on, well, was on two of their hit shows.

13:09Absolutely. And I think, I mean, I saw some people starting to speculate whether this would mean that Strictly was rested. But I absolutely don't think that that's going to be the case. It's a massive shame. And I think the BBC will feel that loss. but you know with the right people with people like alex pitching the right people thanks um it could be a really good excuse to reinvigorate the show because you know again we do the ratings on it and it does slip down a little bit each year so maybe it's a good chance to they reinvigorated it when they when they joined as well and yeah things have to be kept fresh and they've been there a long time and they're stars obviously to me i think it'd be very hard to argue that claudia isn't the biggest TV presenter in the country right now.

13:54And I think she deserves that title. And we'll see what they do next. But I think for Strictly Come Dancing, because they rarely change things up, they rarely change the dancers either, I think it's a great opportunity for them to do something different. Okay, we want to keep our eyes on. Right, Warner Brothers Discovery is the talk of Hollywood after rumours of a sale emerged this week. Heather, who's in line to buy it? Or where's this sort of come from? Good question. Well, it ended up kind of coming to light after Paramount made, I think, two passes on it so far, which have both been rejected.

14:32Lowish ball offers, people are saying. Yes. They do seem to be the most keen and also, I suppose, make the most sense. Netflix were another one that, I mean, this was all kind of buzzing around a mip last week of people debating who might take it. And I think their co-CEO, Greg Peters, you know, he kind of poured cold water on it and was like, it's very unlikely that we would be interested. And yet when we were chatting about it with people, if it wasn't Paramount, I would say Netflix's name was the one that was coming up the most. And also if Paramount did buy Warner Brothers Discovery, it would be the biggest competition for Netflix.

15:12I mean, there were some other names bouncing around like Comcast or maybe one of the big tech giants like Apple or Amazon might be interested. And it could help fill up Apple's somewhat empty catalogue. Their little carefully curated catalogue with, I mean, hundreds of channels and a huge archive. I mean, Warner Brothers themselves were sort of in the midst of announcing a split. so we're going to put their sort of legacy cable news and cable TV assets in one pot some people call that a shit code very mean and then the sexiest streaming studio stuff would be kept with the current CEO David Zaslav so there is a chance that there could be a bit of slicing and dicing of Paramount might just go for maybe the sexier option and then what happens with the rest is kind of unclear I don't think in terms of dicing it that they would make it any smaller than one of those two.

16:08I think after that it would be too small and too complicated for the size of the kind of deal that I think they would be looking to make. But it is definitely possible that it could go for one or the other of those two options, which they are in the process of. I assume that for as long as Paramount Skydance are the only ones making an offer, they will continue to lowball until there's competition, I guess. Well, the other thing for them is because they get on very well with Mr Trump, they can probably get a deal through. And bear in mind, Warner Brothers Discovery have CNN as part of their operations.

16:45I'm sure Mr. Trump will take more than interest. I think he's going to have a big say in this as well. I think there's a lot of companies that he doesn't like and wouldn't want to see get involved. I think from a content point of view and all of us in the industry, we want to ensure that there's still as many places to go as possible. I think my fear whenever you hear these things is, does this shrink or does this, you know, ultimately companies coming together, buying other companies is fine until we start getting rid of other things and getting rid of smaller things and what's left. So I'd be interested to see what would happen and what would get bought and what would get carved up.

17:24I'd be inclined to agree that I think if they were to combine, that would be such a huge raft of IP and channels. There would have to be some pretty major cost cutting as part of that, probably redundancies as well, just because it's too big. It would just be too much to handle. I think we've already seen Paramount Skydance announce a load of redundancies. if they had CNN and CBS News I imagine would probably come together there's always been discussion that maybe CNN would be part of one of the legacy news networks I mean if they bought the whole thing you could see a future where Paramount Plus and HBO Max combined you know you'd have a huge streaming platform which I guess is why maybe Netflix don't want to completely reject it because if you had that versus Netflix then suddenly Netflix are no longer the biggest dog in town.

18:16Is it still called HBO Max today or is it It's still HBO Max for today. It's HBO Max again now, I think. Formerly Max. Formerly HBO Max. There's plenty of time to change. See what happens tomorrow. Okay, just before the break, Ofcom said it won't be changing the rules on whether politicians confront news programmes. Instead, they've updated the guidance on their broadcasting code. Ofcom have been in a bit of a mess with this. There was legal judgments against them, driven by GB News that like a bit of this on their network. Sort of, is this a bit of a fudge, Ofcom, just trying to provide some more advice?

18:56Is it any clearer? So I was slightly surprised by the results of this. So they launched this consultation in May, and that was following a court case with GB News, which they actually won. Which is unusual. It's unusual to win a high court case. And that was, I think it was a Jacob Rees-Mogg led program that that was about. So in May, they launched this consultation because they wanted to change some of the guidance around, I think it's rule 5.3, about politicians as presenters. but then in the kind of announcement that they put out this week it said that when they were having this consultation there was a lot of concern by the people that they were consulting that it would could potentially lead to this kind of de facto ban on politicians ever presenting programs and because of that Ofcom have now decided that they aren't going to change that rule So there was all this, you know, noise about it.

19:54And then essentially nothing is going to change. But they have clarified some guidelines around it to try and make that rule more clear so that I suppose there's less wiggle room to try and get out of it. Alex, I mean, Ofcom haven't kind of covered themselves in glory with this. They don't. It looks like GB News has won the argument and Ofcom are kind of on the back foot. Yeah, I think I've worked a lot with, I've had a few clients over the years work with GB News and I know them very well. And I think it's interesting when you go into those studios and when you meet the senior people there, you feel what they're trying to do in a way.

20:37You see what they're trying to do and then the figures don't lie. You can see, you know, they're still here. Everyone said it wouldn't last more than a day. I think they have to be careful as to not go too far. And I think obviously there's been times where they've been told they've gone too far. I think they're still finding their feet as to like what the boundaries are and they will go to those boundaries. I was very intrigued to see about a year ago now when they announced Boris Johnson would be joining GB News. We haven't seen that yet. I assume not, but I'm not sure what happened there. But that was going to be such an interesting, you know, having an ex-Prime Minister turn up.

21:11I think that they will always... And there's a question, do they really need it? I mean, what they've done, they're doing pretty well. If you sort of, I mean, I don't think of them particularly as a news channel. like they're a very successful comment channel which appeals to a large audience a lot of debate yeah the average audience if you compare it to a news channel they're doing kind of better than some of the news channels are but they've got basically repeatable programming that's on every that's on every day that people make a connection to it's sort of a bit more radio like there's a lot of what they do that and obviously they have the radio aspect as well which are very successful radio figures this week as well right so i think they're just trying to do things differently and And when you try and do things differently in a world that hasn't done things differently for a long time, this happens.

21:51I think obviously everyone has to be careful that they're abiding by the guidelines they have to. But if you were to say to me, will GB News continue to push boundaries as far as they possibly can? Yeah, I think so. Because it seems to be working for them. Will they get in hot water again one day down the line for something? Also, it's very cheap marketing. Having a big old row is excellent, excellent cheap marketing. Yeah. I think they're very buoyed by the fact that they won this. And I guess it slightly feeds into that whole, you know, standing up to... Us against the blob. I have to be honest, I do meet more and more people who are watching GB News more and more.

22:30At the very beginning, first year or two, I didn't know anyone that watched GB News. Now it's not such a... It's not such a now... You know, it's not such an unrealistic thing to hear someone say to me that this is the channel they now watch. So they're clearly doing something right, you know. OK, when we return, how do established talent agencies navigate the streaming world? We'll see you in a sec.

22:59Hello, Media Club listeners. Patrick here from Podcast Discovery, the podcast marketing company, where this week we've been thinking about making money. What do revenue streams look like for podcasts in 2025? Video makes for an exciting new form of income More expensive to make than audio, yes But much cheaper than traditional TV But how do you make a podcast that's worth watching Without just making a TV show? To find out what we could do for your show Head to podcastdiscovery.com That's podcastdiscovery.com Welcome back Here's some stories we've been talking about in the club this week International sports streamer DAZN is making an audacious bid to snap up the Champions League global rights.

23:43A few streamers have made live sport work at scale. We remember all the problems that Netflix had in its early days. But DAZN managed to stream 63 Club World Cup games without a hitch. Meanwhile, Global hosted its Upfronts event for advertisers this week, revealing more information about their newly announced Global Studios on stage with the newsagent's Emily Maitlis, who announced a new show about the infected blood scandal. alongside fellow studios Callum Airey. He was there for the first time too. And Channel 4 is aiming to draw more young people to its news content, commissioning a series of podcasts fronted by comedians and entertainment presenters.

24:20The talent, which includes Stacey Dooley and Ben Zand, as well as YouTube's A Comedy Thing, aimed to counter a recent report that said young people have more confidence in social media posts and friends than in established journalism. Links to all of our stories are available on our sub stack. free to sign up to at themediaclub.com. If you do give us your email address, you also get briefed, which is our weekly update of what all the other podcasts from the media are talking about. Go sign up for free at themediaclub.com. Our guests are still with us. Thinking about that, Channel 4 going for more digital talent.

24:56You've got a decent number of those on your roster, Alex. We do. Is this what more broadcasters are going to be doing? A hundred percent. And if they're not thinking about it, then they're going to be quite far behind. It's amazing to me how quickly creators have evolved into now broadcasters and TV stars. We've seen it on Celebrity Traders. We've seen it on Strictly, you know, Nico on one, George on another. I think everyone's woken up. And the brilliance of our creator division, they're getting younger, but they're getting smarter, and they know the benefits of television. I think a few years ago when we were to go to one of our creators to go, would you like to be on TV?

25:35there was a bit of this kind of like, do I need it? Even creators now see the need of coming together with the TV industry. Is there a need to be on TV? They've got their audience. I think so. I think so. It's a watered-down version when they're on the telly, no? Sure, but I think you find a new audience. I think, first of all, you find a completely new audience that aren't following you on YouTube or any of social. I think it gives you, as a creator, it gives you credibility that is just not achievable elsewhere. To be a creator who's now on television is like a stamp of approval. And I think that TV also they want to impress their mums and dads.

26:09Right. So being on TV is always a good thing to show that you do have a real job and a real career. But for us, our creators division and our unscripted division, which has all of our TV presenters, it's kind of one in the same now. Our TV presenters are moving to YouTube and our YouTubers are moving to TV. And I feel like it's just one big thing now. So, yeah, for me, working with our creators is really exciting because it's not just about social media and it's not just about brand deals. It is about TV, podcasts, books and everything else that a traditional talent would be interested in as well.

26:43Is there a problem that the bigger organizations are sort of importing creators rather than creating any new talent themselves? I think there is a bit of that. I think what we really need to do is to find commissioners and producers who understand how a creator works with their audience and how they make content and how they can make a show or an episode of something within very few days and get more viewers than a TV show that takes six months to make can get. I think people pretend that doesn't exist when it does. I think TV can learn so much from that. And when everyone starts to do that, I think we're going to see some really incredible television, which will be creator-led, creator-produced.

27:28Is that happening yet? In small bursts. There's a couple of shows that I'm aware of where the producer, maybe not solely, maybe there's a co-production element going on, the producer is the creator and they have the vision and they're running it like it's a YouTube show. and I think that's really cool and I think we're going to see more of that and we're pushing that big time and we're working a lot with Channel 4 I think Channel 4 out of everyone is really working hard to lead the way in terms of terrestrial television in terms of bringing people in I think they're doing a great job and they've obviously got 4.0 their YouTube channel which is kind of very new talent focused yeah and I think it's really important for us you know whenever we meet new talent wherever they come from you know one of the questions they ask is is where can we break through into TV?

28:15And previously, you know, over the years, you've had everything from Blue Peter to T4. And those things have gone. And for the last sort of two, three, four, five years, when we've found great new talent, the hardest challenge is breaking them. But now there's a place. And that place could be 4.0. And we've got to grab that and hold on to that and make more of those avenues. Because without that, we're going to lose a lot of people. We're going to lose a lot of great talent who just won't be able to find their way into television. You're talking about younger talent there. You were the youngest MD for Intertalent at 34?

28:50I was 34. I'm definitely not 34 now. I've been very young to take on quite a large operation. Why was it important for a 34-year-old to do it? Or was that just, the age didn't really matter? No, well, when I took over, so I've been at Intertalent for 13 years, and we're a company that's nearly 35 years old. So we've been through different guises and different forms. When I took over running the company, during covid we only did three things we only had uh acting uh unscripted which is tv and you know other things and music and i felt that was very limiting and i had this fear these sleepless nights where i worried that our clients were going to outgrow us because over the last five years talent have wanted to not stay in one lane they've wanted to try everything and do everything can take their talents all over the place and my fear was that we wouldn't be able with only three divisions we wouldn't be able to keep up with that and ultimately we'd lose them they'd walk out the door so it's very important to me to diversify and I think that any talent or any agency that sticks to their one lane is running a massive risk of not being able to keep up with where this industry is going so very quickly I assembled some great staff that would come in in new divisions and we now do 10 different things and even I'm not even satisfied with that really I think there's more we can do but it meant that every time a client came to us and said I've got that idea and I want to act I want to sing I want to present I want to be a gamer I knew that in our four walls we could service that and I think that it was important to me to not be old-fashioned and important to me to to have this ecosystem that could adapt to where our clients were heading towards and not to be defensive or blinkered about about that and even looking at celebrity traders who would have ever thought that Celia Imri would appear on a reality show and could her agent achieve that for her you know I never wanted to be in a position where we couldn't do that and I had this fear and one of my big things and maybe it is my age of when I had you know was talking to my chairman about taking the job was we're not doing enough and we're seeing the proof of that now because we have a lot of multifaceted clients who love being with us because they can keep all their businesses under one roof um so that's kind of how we've set up over in five years we have grown from a team of 20 to a team of 51 which is a lot but it's never been about being big it's just about being able to achieve the things we want to achieve i mean heather this is sort of something we hear from lots of kind of what previously talent agents uh are getting very much into production world aren't they as well yes and i think everyone now is turning around and being like oh my god we need to look at digital and i haven't heard the term creator economy more than in the last like two months to the point we're doing an event on the creator economy in november but i think there is that thing of you know people want to be involved in all aspects of the production.

31:55I think that's what they find exciting about TV is that they get to be involved in making something at a bigger scale that feels like you said, like, you know, look at me, mum. I've got a proper job. I'm working on this big thing rather than something that's primarily viewed on a phone. I can see why that appeals so much. And I think that we all have this fear of being left behind. And this industry is moving. I've never seen it move so far. And obviously we haven't even discussed AI in this. You know, you go on holiday for a week and you come back and that week you've lost, you know. And even for us as staff and, you know, even for me being here, for example, and, you know, I'm a big fan of your Substack.

32:36I've got a Substack. Like for me, even as a business leader in this industry, I feel that I have to now be doing different things. I can't just be doing deals. I now have to, you know, I'm, you know, LinkedIn or Substack and podcasts. And I think that, you know, everyone is in a race and anyone that is embracing all the different ways to distribute content, all the different platforms that are now very free to enter. If you're not if you're not grabbing those with both hands, I do worry as to where you might be in five years time. And and now, yeah, talent becoming producers and making, you know, I think these things are just a natural evolution of talent getting smarter.

33:16and from my point of view is is is not you know if my clients running 100 miles an hour I need to be running at 120 they want it badly so it's a really fascinating time to run a talent agency because it is relentless but and it's and every every week every month there's something new that we feel like we better find out about that before our talent do because they will come to us asking to be on it and we better know our stuff so I was looking at your your substatus deal makers deal makers uh and you're basically saying that sort of everyone should have an agent yeah i believe that um there are some talent that don't yeah because sometimes if you're a really large talent um they they opt out of the system and often their sister or their sister-in-law ends up being their their agents yeah i find listen i struggle with that a bit because i don't like the idea that i do it maybe i'm being blinkered here i don't like the idea that i'm doing a job that any old mate and brother can do.

34:12I think I've worked. I think we've all worked. But I understand why some top talent have opted out. But the truth is, my feeling is this. When there's something important in your life, health or needing a mortgage, or a lawyer, you always go and get a specialist. So I find it weird that in your career, which is one of the most important things you can do, that you wouldn't have a specialist. And to the people that I guess are going without an agent, who are very big, there's enough coming in that I think it's okay for now. But I do think at some point there needs to be more. And I think there needs to be more of a proactive outreach, which is where we come in.

34:54So I don't think we're going anywhere. And I don't think AI is going to replace us either. I've had that conversation. But no, I do think all talent need an agent because we are specialists and we're there to amplify their work. and anyone that thinks that we're not needed, I would love to have that conversation with them. Okay, we've just got enough time for the Audio Network Media Quiz.

35:17Let's see how much attention our guests have been paying to the media news this week. So, this week's quiz is called Shark Den. If this week's AWS outage tells us anything, it's that we should be less reliant on single companies and champion the small businesses of tomorrow. And that's why I'll be highlighting some new business ideas pitched to you in the style of Dragon's Den slash Shark Tank. And once again, Alex at Audio Network has patiently assisted producer Matt in one of his more underwhelming briefs and created a playlist of music to score today's game. Okay, so best of three. Buzz in with your names if you know the answer.

35:56So Heather, you will say. Heather. And Alex, you will say. Alex. Let's play Shark Den. Good evening, Sharks. I'm pitching a radical new presenter that doesn't need a salary, breaks or sleep, yet can host a TV show. I now seek investment to scale this AI presenter as a service across broadcasters worldwide. Who wants in and at what equity? Heather. Heather. This is, I'm assuming, Channel 4's quite splashy new presenter who appeared on a Dispatchers programme. I think her name was something like Aisha Gabban. Well, yeah, so this is Kal-El Productions, kind of sort of pranked viewers of Channel 4's dispatches with an AI host.

36:43It's a big reveal that she wasn't actually a real person at the end. Do you think it fooled people? Slightly unsettling. Well, I was reading that she's very good at kind of bits to camera, but they weren't able, the way that we're sat down now, because the technology would mean that her hands would look weird or it wouldn't quite work. I've seen it a couple of times. I think I listened to a podcast by newsagents where Lewis Goodall did a similar thing where he got his voice to be put in and it was Lewis Goodall's voice but it was an AI talking and it was quite freaky. It does make you quite uncomfortable.

37:23I think I like to think that presenters are safe for now because we have hands that look normal That's our saving grace I worry I'm dreadful at bits to camera so maybe a virtual version of me would be quite useful Were you fooled by the AI? I was, I thought they did a fantastic job I think as a one off kind of let's do this obviously I thought it was great I don't think we can all be too as a stunt as a stunt I don't think we can all be too mad and I like it fair play to them for doing it I'm not you know I know there's been a whole big thing about whether you can represent an agency can represent an AI actor apparently or a presenter I don't think I need to start doing that just yet but yeah to be fair I thought it was very impressive okay here's Shark Den pitch number two.

38:23Sharks. Today I bring you a media play. A new audio-visual brand launching before its actual broadcast station exists. Every Monday two well-known Scottish voices will break down all the biggest stories in Scottish football. Games recaps, referee controversies, upcoming fixtures. It'll drop in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube and STV player. I'm going to say Alex. Alex, yes. This is STV's podcast world. that's been created. Is that right? Yes, they've got a radio station that's coming, coming soon, but they've kind of gone early with the sports phone in by putting it on YouTube podcasts. The rise of the visualised podcast continues.

39:02I have an issue with the term visualised podcast. It's just television, right? But good idea to get going? Yeah, in a way, I guess it's maybe a proof of concept or let's see what everyone thinks about it. It's like a soft launch, isn't it? Dipping the toe in the water. I think the TV, podcast, YouTube, it's all merging into one. Are we surprised of anyone getting into podcasts? We had the Netflix news recently. Not at all. Does this make sense given STV's recent news and everything they've been going through? No, it doesn't. I think it could be a smart play. Right. One more to go. Sharks. I present a bold gamble.

39:44a new high-stakes game show format where contestants will face 100 distinct decisions that test intuition, strategy and nerve. This isn't just talk. The Game Show Network has already put it into development in the US, partnering with producers behind On Brand with Jimmy Fallon. Who's in? I'm going to say Heather. I think this is the 100 Choices. Yes. It's now been kind of the format's been acquired by the US. The Game Show Network, yes. it sounds really bizarre but I think that might make it work you have a difficult question you have a hundred choices but it's almost impossible to narrow it down so they have to partake in like physical challenges to try and whittle it down a bit just sounds like work just sounds like your job a hundred decisions that are quite hard to make continuously just emptying the inbox always but I think you know Japanese formats are having a bit of a moment and I will be intrigued to see if perhaps the UK might be interested in this format as well.

40:50That could be a great new Claudia Winkleman show perhaps. Well, Tess is also going to be looking for a few jobs. Well, congratulations, Heather. You have just pipped Alex to the post. My thanks to both of you. And also to another great Alex, Alex Audio Network, for supplying today's music. Remember, Audio Network can do that for you. Just head to audionetwork.com. so where can we keep up with all your good work Heather? Good question I'm terrible at doing it, I'm trying to be more active on Twitter and on LinkedIn, I also have a blue sky my Twitter is Heather Fallon but with two N's because someone already took Heather Fallon and I mean my name is my name Elon is auctioning off old Twitter usernames and X username so maybe you can find that proper Heather Fallon after all and Alex?

41:39Yeah, I think I'll give a plug to my sub stack called Dealmakers, which is me just breaking down what it's really like to be a talent agent, peek behind the curtain. Is it really like Call My Agent or Jerry Maguire, all those things, and just what it's like to run a talent agency. So, yeah, if you just search Dealmakers with Alex Siegel on sub stack, you'll find me there. We'll put a link on our sub stack as well. Thank you both. And thank you for watching and listening this week. My name is Matt Deegan. The producer was Matt Hill. It was a Rethink Audio production with visual support from Podcast Discovery.

42:09I'll see you next week.

42:35for women. On Thursday, the day Malcolm X came to Smethwick. And on Friday, the cool true story behind Cool Runnings. That's Today in History with The Retrospectors. 10 minutes each weekday, wherever you get your podcasts.