Wallace, BBC Studios Profits and Media's AI Future

0:00The more you listen to your kids, the closer you'll be. So we asked kids, what do you want your parents to hear? I feel sometimes that I'm not listened to. I would just want you to listen to me more often and evaluate situations with me and lead me towards success. Listening is a form of love. Find resources to help you support your kids and their emotional well-being at SoundItOutTogether.org. That's SoundItOutTogether.org. Brought to you by the Ad Council and Pivotal. That sound could mean a lot of things. And when something's going wrong at home, the hardest part can be figuring out what the problem actually is.

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1:03Hello and welcome to the Media Club. I'm your host, Matt Deegan. In the club today, is the media industry too toxic for freelancers? The exec producer, Rina DeAlge, joins us to discuss the wider problems at the heart of BBC's MasterChef scandal. Also on the show, how will AI change the way we make and consume media? Meliora CEO Clive Dickens reveals the conversation's happening behind closed doors. All that plus the BBC's annual report shows healthy profits for the commercial arm, but trouble brewing closer to home. And in the media quiz, I run the numbers on the other big stories of the week.

1:37That's all happening in this edition of the Media Club. Come on in.

1:49Hello both. Hi. Hi. Great to have you back. Clive, welcome to the sofa. Taking part in our sort of Australia-UK exchange scheme that we seem to have started. I know. I like Tim last week, Clive this week. It's good. It's good. So obviously your membership now confirmed. Who would you like to bring into the club with you? This week I'd like to bring in Jensen Huang, who's the founder and CEO of NVIDIA, because this week he created a company that for the first time ever has been worth$4 trillion in the last six days, the largest company to ever existed and probably the largest company that a lot of our audience would have only heard of a few years ago.

2:27So from sort of zero to four trillion, I think that gets him a membership. It does. He can pay for the gold tier. I mean, amazing journey for that company from being something that was relatively boring or in certain sectors. Obviously, AI has transformed the necessity. Yeah, those GPUs, you know, don't make themselves and he makes them all. so everything you do in gen ai is all down to jensen and his founders you know and there's obviously all those different foundation layers and absence it on top of it but you're wondering who is responsible or who to blame you know you know jensen's the man he is uh arena who you're adding to to your membership well i want to say thanks to jensen as well because my shares are doing pretty well i just i was told about him i i was told ages ago and then didn't act on it and now I probably should have acted on it earlier, but anyway.

3:22So I want to bring in Ria Hebden, who was given an honorary doctorate this week for her work with diversity and inclusion for women in TV and she was given an honorary doctorate from Brunei University. And then I also want to chuck in one extra, which is DJ AG, who is huge online and he basically started off just with his decks in Brixton, would just play to nobody on the street just to bring happiness. And now his videos are huge online and he gets huge artists like Burner Boy and Tiny Semper and Will Smith and all these people for free outside King's Cross. And the videos are brilliant. Content creation, we obviously talked a lot about the show, I'm sure we'll talk about today.

4:10It's every single sector where someone can catch the zeitgeist. and if you're talent um you know talent are following those youtubers just like used to follow being on graham norton so far yeah yeah yeah and it is incredible he literally his video was him three years ago and he said a bit like in videos rise um he said that you know he literally he would just stayed persistent he knew what he wanted to do his goal and then just with the the rise and like you said the change in how we're consuming media and stuff it's just it's just blown up and you know sometimes you just have to be the in the right place at the right time and stay focused that right place clearly king's cross station yeah yeah um yes uh okay uh the master chef debacle took another turn on tuesday with greg wallace's co-host john to road uh sacked following further misconduct allegations which he denies um rena the head of film and tv charity marcus rider said this week that freelancers feel unable to call out toxic behavior um is that right is it still right yeah 100 like i've been a freelancer for 20 years and you know it doesn't matter how senior you get or anything there is toxic behavior there from you know big companies that have all these things in places where you have all this training and stuff but essentially you know there is a toxic environment and the thing is a lot of people are afraid to speak up because you are given avenues, you're given, you know, charity numbers and this and that, but actually not a lot of people use it.

5:45And it's, you know, TV's gone back to the type of recruitment where you hire who you know. And if there's a rumour or your name's mud, it just spreads and you're not hired. Is it just, it's not kind of worth the hassle? Yeah, it's just, it is really. Or is it kind of threatening or is it more just, I just don't want to get involved with that because I've got my own furrow to plough. Do you know what I think it is? I think that even if you do speak up, nothing is done until after. When actually what I really think and what would happen in any other companies outside of TV is that you would have, say, a mediated talk.

6:25If you felt like you were being bullied or something was happening, you would have to have that chat straight away and there'd be a procedure. while what I feel happens in TV is that you make a complaint if you do actually get that far. But there's no time. Because the show's been made and we're at the door. The show's been made right now and we'll look at it after or whatever. And then you may have a debrief after if they do anything. Is that just talent imbalance? It's like you can't really tackle the talent because they're essential to the production. Yeah, I think that's on and off screen.

7:01So like, you know, I've had it in shows that I've worked on the last few years where, again, yeah, you are filming with talent. They can behave however they want to behave. And you may get a like, oh, you know, they didn't, I saw that and they didn't treat you very well. But, you know, they're a bit of an idiot. Oh, well, we carry on. Or like, oh, sorry about that. But you have to carry on. And that's it. That's the most you'll get. they'll never get spoken to unless it's a big thing where you know there's loads of people complaining about them then they get cancelled but then they come back like jeremy clark clark if you've been the other end of uh that's you know absolute radio capital before then over in australia uh seven west and southern cross a stereo um you've worked with lots of big talent it requires a different strange odd management yeah look i think it's just horrific that we're still having to talk about this and we just have to do better.

7:58I mean, it's like, you know, optimistically, at least there is action being taken and people have been suspended and lost their jobs, but clearly not is being enough done fast enough. And I think senior leaders have got to take that accountability. They really need to find a way that particularly, you know, vulnerable younger staff, in this case freelancers, can anonymously tip off bad behaviour without feeling that they will be not caught up for the next show. You know, it's absolutely critical, and there needs to be more time and more emphasis and a bit more money of the budget that's gone into this than has clearly happened in the past.

8:42And hopefully we won't be talking about it too much in the future, but I fear it's just too slow. I mean, we return to this topic a lot when the same sort of things are discussed. In a media world where it's more complicated, it's tougher for TV companies, radio networks, all those things, does that make it even harder to tackle their big names who bring in the cash when there are these issues? They really are untouchable because of the finances. I've never really believed that. I don't believe there's such thing as superhumans or any humans. And whether you're a very popular, talented person on or off screen, no one is above the law.

9:20No one should be above the policies and no one should make other people feel this way. So, yeah, of course, they'll understand the business logic of hits and stars and talent. But this is just basic table stakes treating your people better. And, you know, I think there is much more to be done. and ultimately leaders have to be held accountable when they don't create a safe place. Have you had to tell anybody, say who, have you had to tell anybody that their behaviour is unacceptable? Yeah, absolutely. Many decades of many countries and many companies and I think that's my responsibility on many occasions.

9:59What's their response? I mean, look, from a behaving badly talent perspective, Sometimes they can have some out-of-body experience where they're not even aware that their terrible behavior is having this impact on people. So that's sometimes a bit of shock. Often, well, that's misinterpreted. Because obviously the environment that you create in a production area, whether it's a studio or a set or a location, is a sort of magical place where people come together, work long hours under huge stress type budgets. And there is some chemistry there which is needed, but not that type of chemistry. So it's really about acting fast, I find.

10:51If you have somebody who is clearly either reported or behaving, the sooner you can get someone at a senior level and say to people, because actually the heart of most of us, I've worked with people who are good people, and they need feedback. We all need feedback. We all need constant training. We all need reminding. And actually the stars and the big talent are the same. It's just really when you let that behaviour become normalised, that's when it becomes harder. So they've got a whole other series in the can with him, well, with Therese the whole way through, and I think with him except for in the final.

11:27What do you do with that series? Well, aren't they allegedly putting it out? I don't know. I don't think they've made the decision. Or they have. They haven't told us. Is that broadcast an iPlayer or just iPlayer? Because sometimes, does it matter anymore? We shouldn't. Goodness, we definitely shouldn't be having that to show us. We should think about Glastonbury. Thankfully, no one said, oh, don't worry. They only said it on a live stream on the iPlayer. They said it on the BBC. The BBC, as they tell us every day, is everywhere. And so with the broadcast linear stream, it's in the BBC. so I can't see how they can personally I think the key thing question is those contestants who don't get to tell their stories that so how do you compensate them and do you do the whole competition again with them with new judges I think you know I personally can't see how you can now particularly with both individuals having the accusations no I completely agree they they shouldn't if you've got someone that you know has had 40 plus complaints upheld and then somebody else that yes they may not remember using a very offensive racist term but they have yeah they shouldn't be on tv they should be held accountable yeah and what does it say to the people who who made the accusations or maybe the other people in other productions who didn't weren't brave enough to say something what does it say to them and does it say does it encourage them to speak up because they say well actually nothing happened the show still went out we will see what happens still on the BBC the BBC's revenues are up to the highest of the BBC studios Clive why are they doing so well?

13:02I think I've always been really supportive of the BBC studio strategy I think at a really North Star basis we should be taking a 20 year plan to find out how we can get the rest of the world to fund our domestic public service that should be a 20 year North Star which means they've got a long way to go because that means they've got to generate£4 billion worth of profit out of Rest of World. Which is an extremely large amount of money. Sure, but what an ambition. I think they're trying to get to 10 or 15 % and they're at sort of 300 million. And Tom and Tim, between them, Tim obviously set studios up, Tom's taking it to the next strategy.

13:39I think I'll accept your thanks now because, of course, Australia's Bluie is really a big part of that. So thank you, that's fine. that cultural contribution of Bluey. Again, I've probably financed half of it. My house, my kids love Bluey. So Australia gets another mention. Bluey's interesting because someone from the public service team supported the initial production of it. Someone who was ex-BBC, I think it was Australian, went back and kind of created it and then made some suggestions. Then the BBC happened to take a half share. And I think the ABC didn't because they didn't have the money.

14:16That's the tragedy. because it should have actually been an Australian public service investment. So we've handed it to our friends in the colonies. But ABC passed and became the broadcaster only, and the rest is history. But the other factor, other than Bluey, of course, it's a little bit of financial jigger-bigger pokery because they acquired the other 50 % of BritBox in the year for£250 million of cash, and then they're booking 100 % of the revenue in the financial year. So, which is fine, but, you know, it's 250 ,000, 250 million, sorry, of, I can check what the number is, but there was a lot of cash going out to allow some revenue to go in.

14:58I'd like to see them focus a little bit more on net profit. There's a sort of little bit too much wiggle room around EBITDA and, you know, because there's a lot of depreciation, amortization that can come out of that before it actually helps to fund, you know, Rina's great stories back here. So let's actually have a KPI which actually talks about how much cash comes out of that. So EBITDA is a financial engineered profit and is excluding lots of things. So come on, Tom, you can tell us how much net profit is. So obviously blue is important. And sort of previously sort of Doctor Who was always regarded as that's a big thing that generates a lot of cash.

15:33Have they got enough hits to grow that business? Well, I think, you know, the jury's out on that, right? I think it is driven heavily by 80-20. I haven't studied it. I would imagine there would be like four to five properties that are doing right over 80 % of the revenue. And therefore, the thing is, we've just got to keep turning over that investment. We've got to keep finding a model that will allow people to fund these ideas. And that brings us back to the other challenge, which, of course, at the other end of the pie, they've had the largest amount of UK households stop paying the licence fee.

16:11Yeah, well, let's come on to that in a sec. Reena, do you see when BBC Studios are involved, is there more cash for productions here? Does it mean there's more money or don't we really see it? No, it doesn't mean it. I feel like I come on here and I'm just like the doom monger. Tell the truth. Yeah, well, but no, I think they are doing well in that they are changing with the market. So they're doing, focusing on more kind of vodcasts. So you've got Ryland's one and you've got Lily Allen and Makita Oliver's one. And then they've just got Tom Grennan's and Ronan Kemp. So I think they're trying to corner that youth market.

16:46But that is with very, very cheap, cheaply produced content. So I think they are churning out. But essentially, that's a very, very low budget show. And I think I've mentioned this before, but you've either got the huge hits like the Traitors and Strictly and Gladiators and stuff. And then there's no, and now there's no middle ground. There's no middle. There's nothing at all. You've got kind of reality the other end as well. Yeah. But it seems like it needs to be this huge global hit that, again, is all made on a shoestring. And budgets are being squeezed left, right and centre. That's from freelancers where it's being squeezed, but also like the time, time frame that you get to lead into a show, to film the show, all of that stuff, edits as well, are being squeezed left, right and centre.

17:35So you get that really long hours, the pressure, the stress. It is great to make content and I've just made a new show for BBC, which I was really pleased with. But again, that was tiny budget, tiny, tiny team, but you wouldn't think it. What's the show? It was called Alison Hammond's Big Weekend. Oh yes, yeah. I mean, Claire, there's something interesting about television, the way television's changing. and Rena's right, they're sort of low end and high end doing well, you've got high end credits here in the UK. The middle has sort of disappeared, it's affected freelancers a lot but also lots of competition for TV companies.

18:14I mean BBC Studios is entering a time when, yes, there's more television out there but there's more people making it at the same time. Have the BBC Studios sort of entered at the wrong time to do really well out of this? I think it would have been great to see the strategy executed earlier, undoubtedly but I think actually we do see some of that investment on screen it was very noticeable with the recent series of Doctor Who that that money was on screen I mean it was noticeable the fact that the show wasn't clearly as big as they would have hoped for that for those seasons but they definitely there was a reinvestment there it wasn't making its way to your production but it was definitely making way on the screen you know and we've seen them announce a paywall which I'm supportive of for bbc.com so there's just in the US people accessing access bbc.com And I think that there is, I also was encouraged by on the statement around some of the independent productions, either wholly owned or investments, but producing content for other broadcasters, you know, the Clark and Roll films and the Baby Raindo, for example.

19:11So it's, I think, I actually think they're doing pretty well in a pretty tough market. And we should continue to be their champion because it's important to our culture. Well, you mentioned earlier about license fee payers. so there are 300 ,000 or less of them. Of course there's been a big change that you can still watch television and not pay a licence fee, you just can't watch any live TV or on-demand TV from BBC iPlayer. I mean they're in a tough place, this is where a big chunk of their income comes, 300 ,000 off, that's 50 million quid not going to the public service end. Are they going to be able to turn that tide?

19:47Well I think there's a big debate on this isn't it, like it's a 100 year old model this licence fee and with you know pay for subscriptions and then ad-based streaming services and stuff and then all these other platforms and tiktok making their own shows and youtube and everything it does feel and i know like you've you've talked about all the money stuff like all the business model stuff so i know it's a lot more complex than i can get my head around but i do think it needs to change somehow because i just think year on year especially you know it's going to rise with inflation and it's just going to keep bumping up.

20:26And I just think people are just going to say, why am I paying for it? What is Clive sort of opt-outable now, and particularly younger audiences, and there's going to be some data from Ofcom next week as well, young audiences spend a huge amount of time on YouTube. It's very easy not to consume any BBC content. It perhaps used to be unmissable, kind of is missable. Yeah, but I think it was important, that change of legislation recently recently where it's obviously on the positive side it did include consumption of iPlayer live and on demand but because my mother when she was live she was a magistrate and she'd get people coming to court for non-payment and she was just like this is a complete waste of the court's time for someone like this and these were low income and if you actually look into numbers and I had a look you know there's some very interesting geographic and demographic holes here the reality is the nations and regions, particularly the nations, are the problem.

21:19The biggest cohort of decline is in Northern Ireland, for example. And then after that, it's Scotland, and after that, it's Wales. So actually, London compliance is actually really stable. The perception is that London is going down, because here we obviously love to talk about ourselves. But actually, the numbers are really simple. You've really got to think about how it becomes your BBC, if you're in londonderry and now it's your bbc if you're in inverness and and you know that's you know whether it's all aspects of that and i don't have a magic wand but actually this is this is there is quite big demographic shifts and geographic shifts and then of course the demographic shift is that younger market who are going hang on a second this is a discretional income i've got my ad funded cheap netflix tier and i've got my youtube you know without youtube premium and Between those two services of your low-income young household, that is an amazing array of content.

22:22And I think there could be do more there. And also, I think the last thing is that there's quite a lot of friction to pay. So I looked into this thinking, God, we, you know, I don't know about you, I won't buy anything now unless it's Apple Pay. You know, whether it's Apple Pay at the Tube or Apple Pay on a website, you still can't buy, as far as I'm aware, the BBC license fee on Apple Pay. So think about how a lot of those 300 ,000 is because, oh, God, how do you, what do you have to do online, et cetera? So it's like a billing, it's a billing inquiry. And having come just recently from a billing company with 800 million paying customers, my last employer, we were obsessed about friction around billing.

23:01So sometimes, you know, we're looking at the root cause might be something completely different. And I'm pretty sure that a lot of those 300 ,000, I just forgot or just found it too hard. Does the BBC need to commission more things in those places or for those demographics? Is that going to fix it or is that a bit of a sticking plaster? Is it more fundamental? I think it's more fundamental. I think it's a bigger issue because, you know, if they commission stuff that works within those nations, then again, it might not work for everywhere else. So I think that, you know, you are just putting a little plaster on it.

23:36I think they just need to look at it as a big hole. Big hole. Last thing, I saw Tim Davey say in a sort of throwaway comment, we're open to any new funding mechanism the BBC, the government wants to talk about. Obviously, advertising subscription doesn't really work, but anything else is fine. Is there much else? Donations? Anyone got a bowl? NPR model? Our government grant would work. The good news is we're about to find out. Charter renewal is imminent. you know there's discussions around structuring it differently from mutualizing the organization you know you know i've been around long enough where i think this will probably be my ex-mini charter renewal in my career and and we sort of went all around houses each time and went back to the least worst option and so i wonder whether that's going to happen again but i do think we need to keep looking and and seeing whether there is a better but no magic wand today okay when we return how ai will affect how we make media and how consumers consume it.

24:39Join us after the break.

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25:42And that's where we record the Media Club. And just use that code, Media Club, to get your 25 % off. Just head to podshoponline.co.uk. That's podshoponline.co.uk. The more you listen to your kids, the closer you'll be. So we asked kids, What do you want your parents to hear? I feel sometimes that I'm not listened to. I would just want you to listen to me more often and evaluate situations with me and lead me towards success. Listening is a form of love. Find resources to help you support your kids and their emotional well-being at SoundItOutTogether.org. That's SoundItOutTogether.org. Brought to you by the Ad Council and Pivotal.

26:29That sound could mean a lot of things. And when something's going wrong at home, the hardest part can be figuring out what the problem actually is. At Thumbtack, you can upload a voice message or a photo, and our AI-powered search will help diagnose your project. Plus, the pros we know have over 14 million five-star reviews, so you can hire with confidence. Thumbtack. We know homes. Hire the right pro today. Why does the same news story sound completely different depending on where you read it? That confusion is exactly what Ground News was built to solve. It's an app and website that compares news coverage, allowing you to see how each story is framed across the political spectrum and the world.

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27:48Welcome back. Here's a few things we've been looking at in the club this week. podcast sales house Audioboom has acquired small ad network Adalicious creating the UK's second largest podcast network Audioboom has had quite a lot of success in the US but this deal suggests a bit of a bigger play here in the UK posing a bit of a challenge for Acast it's for sad news that we note the passing of Jonathan Miller the journalist and media veteran of many years died suddenly in France last week he was just beginning a press campaign for his new book Shock of the News Confessions of a Troublemaker telling the story of his time working for Rupert Murdoch.

28:24Andrew Neil had called it a bare-knuckled read, perhaps one for the Sun Loungers this summer. And Bob Mortimer is back for season two of Last One Laughing. It's been announced. The Amazon Prime hit has yet to announce its new contestants, but will be bringing back Mortimer, perhaps making competitive comedians think twice about taking part. Did you watch it? Did you watch the show? I was obsessed by that show. I thought it was so great. It was so great on many levels because I've worked in Comedy Entertainment and Comedy End has taken such a dive. So to see a Comedy End show to do so well and for...

29:01On a smaller stream. Amazon isn't always the one that gets talked about a lot. No, but it was brilliant and everyone was really rooting for it and it made people laugh because now it's all murder documentaries and dramas and stuff and this was funny and it was great to see comedians be funny and it was just a bit of light and I thought it was brilliant and it's the first time that I think we binged three and then I wanted to watch the other three and then because they'd withheld two of them so I had to wait. I was like, oh. I actually met with Kat Lynch from Amazon and just congratulated her because I thought it was fantastic.

29:42Also, very efficient because I guess recorded in a single day. Nine hours. Yeah. So they had a nine hour record with the game and then all week. Do you think that was part of it? That's sort of, they could afford it because it was those people only for a day and, well actually doesn't that really matter. I reckon they could afford it anyway. I reckon they went for it. Because, you know, you don't get that level of comedians for nothing. So, and I know that, you know, the word has spread and there's lots of comedians that actively wanting to be on the next series. but it was fantastic and you know little clips still now pop up on Instagram and it just makes me laugh and smile so I think it's great had you caught it?

30:24yeah it was interesting because the Australian series ran first and didn't work no I watched one of those and it didn't work so when I saw it I was thinking oh they're still going with this because my perception was it hasn't worked and then we sat down and watched and oh my gosh so just proving how important the casting is and the cultural environment it was just incredible and you know I love to see the comedians they clearly were having so much fun as well it was you know it was amazing and we'll see a lot more and maybe we'll see a much more successful second series of Australian versions yeah it is interesting to think the Irish version as well I think Graham Norton I think host didn't quite hit the mark either I think Canada did pretty well just back to casting these shows isn't it getting great cast together yeah I think the Irish one did have a good cast but I don't know why it just didn't it just didn't do as well because if you stuck those Irish comedians into the one with Jimmy hosting, it'd be brilliant.

31:18I'm sure they'll probably bring some of them over. But yeah, it was just fantastic. And I think Bob Mortimer as well had a real, like online, he was one of the most talked about. And I know that even after I watched it, me and my husband went down a shooting stars, clips wormhole for about two hours, which was great. So I, and I love him. Well, we'll see the new series soon. So Clive, great to have you here in the UK, mainly in Australia now. Is it fun to be back? Obviously, you're kind of back here for family. Yeah, look, it's the end of this incredible five-week trip where I've been and had 100 meetings talking about the role that Gen.i plays in the creative industries and from LA, New York, Nashville, Zurich, London, Edinburgh, Birmingham, Berlin.

32:07And it's incredible. And because we're a new company and we're a complete clean scheme, we're not bound by any NDAs. We don't have any foundation clients, and therefore it's incredible what people tell you. And I won't break those confidences, but this will be the only time when you get to do that. Imagine having been able to talk to every single media company in one trip, and that's why it's been so long. So this is Meliora. So you have had some quite big jobs. You sort of created Absolute Radio in the UK after quite a long history of radio here. Then you sort of swapped sides to Australia, Southern Cross Austereo, which I guess was sort of not a similar role, but it was in a predominantly radio company.

32:42I've seen some TV as well. Then to telly, then to telecoms. So you probably could have got another job if you wanted it. Oh, yeah, but the last job was the best of all. Why was it the best? It was culminated in the Women's World Cup, actually. Being part of the team that convinced Sufa to bring the tournament to Australia, then becoming the main headline sponsor of the Charco, then having all the exclusive rights and sub-licensing to television and rebuilding the content. Living Network and the 5G and casting the studio and the host and then the amazing Matildas only beaten in the semifinal by the amazing Lionesses.

33:18It was 20 million of the 27 million Australians experienced the Women's World Cup and it was you know thinking there is no way as a global event with that type of purpose as well because it's you know not a women's sport is so much more exciting it was like that's it I'm out and you know there is no job number four and now I want to So Meliora is the intelligent experience company. We want to bring all of those decades of experience across all of those countries, television, telecoms, radio, audio, to our clients with this incredible Gen.I. economy that is changing everything. So AI is added on to everything, whether it should be or not.

34:01People have different, slightly different views on it. Some people see it as very threatening. Others embrace it. For some, it's just a buzzword. a buzzword, do you think it's going to have, what kind of effect do you think it's going to have on the media sector? Well, you know, it is electricity, right? So when electricity was discovered, before electricity was discovered, we knew about electricity. It was lightning hit the ground. It would hit start fires and people would go, look at that electricity. I didn't call it that and people died. And so we've got these, some people have this view of AI.

34:32We're taking what we call a relentlessly optimistic view about the combination of artificial intelligence with human intelligence makes a better society. That is our optimistic view. We're only talking about the industry that can use it for growth. We're leaving all the others to work out how it can be used for efficiency. And that's really resonating in that first meetings. It's that optimism, that growth focus, and how it enhances the creative process. So what does that growth look like? So for a TV company or an audio company? Well, it means you can access so many different markets. You can break down so many different geographical markets.

35:09You can really launch new businesses and services and products much quicker, much cheaper, and, you know, without having to raise huge amounts of capital. So the real category that's exploding is the Gen AI apps category. And these are the apps that are actually not actually owned by the large language models at all. Yeah, so talk a bit about what Gen AI is, because people might have used some of the services. But what's special about Gen? It's a relatively new term which stands for generative AI. It really only became used from Thursday, November the 10th, 2022. Why in Thursday, November the 10th, 2022?

35:45Because that was the day that Sam Altman said, yes, let's release ChatGPT to the world. And at that moment, whether we realize it or not, now or then, the world changed. And the AI had been around, but there had not been any usable gen AI. Of course, it started an absolute arms race because all of a sudden everyone expedited their already development. Deep Ryan was already developing something. Anthropic was developing something. Deep Sea was developing something. Xi was developing something. And everyone started that arms race and that gold rush. That's only two and a half years ago. So, you know, always be aware of the gen AI expert with two and a half years of experience, including this one.

36:24So it's that is the electricity layer. You know, we now have electricity in everything we do. I think it is an interesting analogy. We can't imagine a world without electricity. And we soon won't be able to imagine a world without how AI can make us a better society. You've been investing in some services as well as providing advice to people. And a lot of these people are building apps sort of on top of some of these, the things that maybe people are a bit more familiar with, like Gemini or... Yeah, I think people can get really confused by all the terms and the layers. But really, simply, there's three layers.

37:00The bottom layer is that foundation layer, which is the LLMs. These are brands that are actually not that well-known, like DeepMind, like OpenAI, like XAI, Lama. And then the apps that are household names are the ones that are predominantly owned by the same people of foundation layers, which, of course, is ChatGPTs and CoPilots and Gemini. Actually, that is not where the innovation is happening. Where the innovation happening is the next layer, which is the Gen.AI wrappers and apps that are not owned by the large language models. They are dependent on one or all of the foundation LLMs, but they are solving complex and creative business problems without having to have all of that infrastructure.

37:42And that's exactly how the web exploded on the back of the internet in the 90s. The internet existed for years. The web was open sourced and we saw all of that. That's exactly how mobile apps exploded, because all of the mobile apps that we love are not owned by the people who manufactured our smartphones or the operating systems. And now the same thing applies. The solutions that we're seeing that will change the world are not necessarily the ones coming from the foundation models. And now the foundation models have the innovators dilemma because they're making orders of magnitude more money out of selling what's called tokenization to these Gen AI apps than they're actually making selling subscriptions to their Gen AI apps.

38:21It's the plumbing. They're providing the plumbing, aren't they? Yeah, it's like cloud. It's like compute. And it's called tokenization in this area. And there are literally thousands of new Gen AI companies being incorporated every single month across the world. Thousands. We are only at the beginning. If it feels busy and complicated, then buckle up. Well, a lot of people in media have had a lot of change over the past few years. A lot of jobs have changed, disappeared. What should some of those people who are great kind of creative minds, what should they be learning about AI? Or what things should they be interested in to help give them the skills to fly in this new world?

39:00Well, what frustrates me is that some people seem to be making the same mistakes over again. When people are telling me they've got 10 people in a room, highly paid, trying to work it out. And they go, no, that's not how you do that. That sounds like how you make Chitty Chitty Bang Bang fly. You know, that was a film, that wasn't a documentary. So, you know, you have to really look at what problem you're solving or what problem you need to solve. And you will find a GNI app that will help you do it. And it isn't complicated, but businesses are spinning up proof of concept, showcases, test and learns.

39:33And in fact, actually, of course, you need to test and learn, but you just need to test and learn around these apps. And these apps are incredible. And of course, some of the most famous ones are not owned by the LLMs, are things like Perplexity and Midjourney. And there's an incredible product out of Sweden called Lovable, which creates some beautiful websites. And it's one of the fastest growing. And then the principle to really look for is what's called a Lean AI principle. Gen AI apps following a Lean AI principle. What does that mean? Well, it basically means these are businesses and they're solving complex problems, but they have hardly any headcount and resources.

40:09You know, one of the businesses we've rested in has got 100 million of gross market value going through its transaction. It has two 18-year-old staff and has only existed for nine months. And they've got no need or desire to hire any more people. That is the ultimate lean AI principle. And if you want to read more about that, there's a lean AI leaderboard that I pretty much look at every day, thinking like a podcast ranker. And it basically shows you which of these companies are growing the fastest with users. Well, they've raised money, but also how little capital they're deploying in the lean environment.

40:41And that's what's really exciting. So if you've got a good idea or you've got the ability to solve a problem, actually, you've probably got the ability to create something. Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, and that narrow problem solving and the tightly defined problem, the better. You know, it's like you think about Airbnb and Uber. But, you know, it wasn't until the arrival of the mobile internet and smartphone and the app store that both of those founders were like, OK, they didn't need to own the cars. They didn't need to own the hotels. It feels very normal now. But actually, it was a two-sided marketplace that I need to, you know, mobility in a two-sided marketplace around where I'm going to stay.

41:15So these are now decades old examples. But it's a similar principle now saying, so what is my actual slither of the problem I need to solve? You know, one of the businesses we've invested in is a procurement business, a small business. And they've gone, we're going to help solve procurement so that businesses can invest in their people and their marketing and in the media case, their content more as well and derive it that way. So I found the smaller the use case and the more tightly defined it is, the more excited I get. And where does that sit with your kind of media background? Do you look at these companies because some of them are perhaps not the most shiny concepts, but they're solving real problems.

41:56When you look at all that work you've done in telecoms and telly and audio, do you think I've got 50 problems that I know could be solved by somebody? I think stepping back, what I've learned after many years is what I potentially have some value in has been a bit of a connector. I know enough about technology to explain to technologists what the creatives are saying, enough about creativity to explain to the creatives what the technologists mean. That connection and whether that connection is to a board member, an investor, a creative or a technologist, actually having that combination of art and science, stories and software, human intelligence and artificial intelligence is actually our secret source.

42:34And actually growing up in an industry where we've always had to solve problems, particularly in radio, that was always the underdog in the media mix, never had the same money, never had the same time, never had the same access to resources, is something that even today in the big companies really works. But really, it's really that respect for the creative process and the respect that the creative process doesn't just end with the story. You know, a creative technologist who is writing a prompt or writing code, they're talented creative people as well. But they may come across and present very differently.

43:08Well, it's going to be fascinating following what Meliora does. so good luck with it. Reena, I'm very jealous of your recent work. You've been up in Inverness working on three different series of The Traitors. Yes. And of course you can tell us all about it and reveal all the secrets now, can't you? Yes, I'll tell you everything now I can't. I think I would be murdered in real life. Yeah, unfortunately I can't tell you anything which is really hard for me because I tell people everything. But I can say that they were all amazing and they will be incredible to watch. And I know that the celeb version, which is the first UK celeb version, there'll be a lot of hype around it and a lot of people are very excited because the cast were incredible.

43:53So yeah, it will be great. So it's a couple of people who are in it and they've all kind of kept shtum, but they all had a great time being involved. Often in like celebrity specials, the quality of the celebrity isn't always super high, but with this it really was is it just because they all loved the show a lot of them yeah love the game and i think because it's the game everyone's playing it for the game there's no you know sub stories or there's no this or that it's the game and that is it and because it's a like psychological game so you have that challenge you're like well i can do that i could lie to everyone every day it'd be easy and then when you're in it well you'll see what happens uh so your gallery series editor for celebrity traders yes and then welfare exec uh for the uk and us uh series yes after that what's a welfare exec well so good question um no do you know what it was actually brilliant because being the one of the gallery series editors was great because it's what I've done, it's editorial, it's fantastic.

45:03But being one of the welfare execs, I got to see a completely different side to it. And that was basically, it's everything we need for crew, basically. It was, we had a whole team of fantastic people. Like the team were incredibly talented and they look after all the contributors, whether it's you know a down to knowing that playing with a football will make them less stressed right okay um to how are they feeling how they're doing are they okay are they too immersed um you know all of this kind of stuff it's like it was just being it was like being a parent on on you know for 24 7 with the cast and it was great because we've had some really really amazing messages and especially from the u.s cast because apparently welfare is not a thing in america yes um it's not i've seen the news i can i can believe that yeah so they were astounded yeah they were astounded that basically that there was a team in place that were there to be there for them off kind of on and off screen and yeah anna and dave and sarah and and the whole team were fantastic and really really great do you think it's changed it will change how you work on other shows having done a stint of that yeah for sure it gives you it gives you the wider picture and also because you know sometimes being in the editorial side you can just be like oh yeah what's the delay let's we need to hurry up and get on with it but actually seeing that side of it you do get to see and you get to see the effects that you know filming those long hours and being part of a really intense show has on people.

46:52Well, I've got to organise a family version of the Traitors over the summer holidays. What should I remember? What's the key thing I've got to keep in mind? It was so fun. Well, I'll tell you this. So with the welfare team, we actually played our own version whilst the version was going on. And it was so fun. It was so fun. So you need to have a Claudia or an Alan. so you need to do that you need to think about how you pick your traitors because as soon as the game starts even before the game starts people think they know what you're thinking so and you've just I think the best thing is you've got to keep people guessing so if you're doing it have your missions ready you need missions but also have your little twists a little twist in there yeah it'll be very very fun I got very involved.

47:48I nearly blew it within the first minute because I didn't realise that this random group that I'd been added to was the traitors group. So I was with my colleague on the other side of the office. I was like, oh, what's this random group? And she just went, no. So I was like, oh, what was this? Anyway. But yeah, I got busted because I did a murder in plain sight and I left a trail. So yeah, but it was very good fun. Okay, I'm looking forward to that. The more you listen to your kids, the closer you'll be. So we asked kids, what do you want your parents to hear? I feel sometimes that I'm not listened to.

48:34I would just want you to listen to me more often and evaluate situations with me and lead me towards success. Listening is a form of love. Find resources to help you support your kids and their emotional well-being at SoundItOutTogether.org. That's SoundItOutTogether.org. Brought to you by the Ad Council and Pivotal. Why does the same news story sound completely different depending on where you read it? That confusion is exactly what Ground News was built to solve. It's an app and website that compares news coverage, allowing you to see how each story is framed across the political spectrum and the world.

49:07For the recent story about the U.S. signing the Memorandum of Understanding with Iran, their vantage plan shows us that Right-leaning Daily Express framed it as a historic peace deal, while left-leaning NPR notes it resulted in the president's approval hitting record lows. Plus data like each publication's source of funding and a factuality rating. The Nobel Peace Center even called Ground News an excellent way to stay informed, avoid echo chambers, and expand your worldview. Get 40 % off by going to ground.news slash 2026. That's ground.news slash 2026. Again, ground.news slash 2026.

49:48right just enough time for the media quiz let's see how much attention our guests have been paying to the media stories this week right what's the title oh it's a higher or lower this week i'll give you a uh figure from a media story from the past seven days you just tell me whether it's higher or lower than the story before you'll both get a chance to answer and it's the best of three. So let's play higher or lower. Right, your starting number is 335 ,000. That's Clive Myrie's salary at the BBC according to its annual report. So is Amol Rajan's salary higher or lower? Reena? I'd say lower. Lower?

50:30A lot lower? What do you think? I'd say maybe 250. Okay. Clive? Yeah, I'm lower. What do you think? How much Amol Rajan 270. You're both right. It is a lower, but slightly higher cash amounts in the 315 ,000 band. So keep 315 ,000 in your head. Right. Now, the prize jackpot on ITV's new spin-off show presented by Jeremy Clarkson. Is it higher or lower? Lower? Oh, no, hang on. Higher than 315 ,000. Well, if it's millionaire, it's millionaire hot seat, isn't it? It might be. But then you'd think that they were in a million. But then maybe they don't. I'm going to say higher. Higher. A non-specific higher.

51:17Yeah. Clive? Somewhere higher. It's higher. Yep. So you're right. This is Millionaire Hot Seats, which you've had in Australia for a while. Yeah, for years. In fact, when I got it to Australia 10 years ago, it was like, we got higher to be a millionaire. I thought I'd switch it on. I was going, that's not how to be a millionaire. But it's a transition to this format a long time ago. In fact, so long ago, it's now decommissioned. you had a good one though so I'm sure that good one in Australia is part of the reason why they've taken it it sort of has six people in a circle and sort of go faster through the rounds that you know do you think it'll work, Rita?

51:50I think so I think people are mad on quizzes and again it's that play along element and everyone sort of knows the rules, don't they? Okay, keep a million in your head final one is the number of Emmy nominations for adolescence higher or lower than a million? Clive Well, let me think. I wish it was high. Because it was such an amazing event television. But it was lower. I think there was 14, wasn't it? Yes, it was. 13. Yeah, 13. Correct. Well done. We had to stop people talking about adolescence on the media club because everyone was talking about how amazing it was. But it obviously was a great series.

52:24And it's great for it to be sort of rewarded in America as well. Yeah, I think it's, I'm going to join the people. It was amazing. And also because it's not this glossy, you know, Downton Abbey and Kings and Queens and it was raw gritty something that represents real scary Britain and it's done really really well and I just think you know Stephen Graham's incredible and I just think from he's such a great guy on and off screen like I know he's really supportive of like new talent and everything and I think it really shows So I really hope they do really well. Yes. And there might even be a sequel.

53:05Yeah, I think so. Which will be interesting to see what they do. I mean, often, Clive, people talk about the streamers and how they sort of generify all television, whereas that was a real British show and did very well everywhere. Yeah, I think the closest you got to generic, it was a sort of generic Northern England geography, right? It was hard to pinpoint you somewhere floating above Warrington towards Liverpool and out to Oldham. so they definitely tried to avoid cities per se but it was a sort of, you know, so that was, of course, it was incredible. And obviously a sense that there was a bit of a left-hanging question at the end, was he a psychopath or not?

53:41So I would imagine that would be a really good thought starter for a second series or maybe they'll have a whole new different set of characters. Can't wait. Well, I think you've both sort of won that so you can work together on an AI problem that we can solve next time. so come back and tell me that and also thanks to both of you for coming along this week how can people keep up with your progress at Meliora Clive a single focus platform is LinkedIn we're a B2B business it's a B2B platform so you'll find us all on LinkedIn and Reena what's coming up for you I don't know what's coming up for me actually which is great I've just been very lucky and worked solidly for a long time so So I'm going to just see what comes up.

54:26And when have we got Wens Traders on telly, do we think? I don't know. I don't know the official release date. Probably September-ish. Yeah, sometimes. Awesome. Good. Well, we'll look forward to tuning in there. And thanks to you for watching and listening as well. Remember, head to themediaclub.com and sign up to our sub stack. It's free to do and you get an update from us every week. My name's Matt Deegan. The producer was Matt Hill. There was a Rethink Audio production with video support from Podcast Discovery. This is our final kind of main episode for this run. Might have a little special for you next week.

55:02And then we'll be back at the end of August with a show from the Edinburgh TV Festival. So we'll see you then.

55:15Oh, and if you're still here, remember to sign up for our survey. it's the way that we find out more about what you think about the show it's really easy there's a link in the show notes or at our website themediaclub.com the more you listen to your kids the closer you'll be so we asked kids what do you want your parents to hear i feel sometimes that i'm not listened to i would just want you to listen to me more often and evaluate situations with me and lead me towards success listening is a form of love. Find resources to help you support your kids and their emotional well-being at soundedouttogether.org.

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