Was This The Bitchiest TV Festival Ever?

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1:01Hello and welcome to the Media Club. I'm your host Matt Deegan and we are live on location at the Edinburgh International TV Festival. But is it the bitchiest festival yet? We'll ask some of our guests later on. Also on the show, why was a newspaper editor doing the prestigious McTaggart Lecture? We'll be finding out who's on the line-up for this year's Last One Laughing and what's been happening with celebrity traitors. All that plus we'll be investigating the commissions that have popped up at the festival and throwing in a few of our own to see if our guests can tell what's real and what's not real.

1:38That's all coming up in this edition of the Media Club. Come on in.

1:49I've cornered Rebecca Cooney from Broadcast Magazine and Boyd Hilton from Hilt and the Pilot TV Podcast. Hello guys. Hi. Have you had a good festival so far? I have in the sense that I'm hosting two sessions I'm kind of in between the two of them and I'm quite stressed out and busy but you know I'll always make time for you and generally yeah the first session's done and went okay no major complaints so that's one thing and the audience didn't either no exactly well not that I know so there was also talk about pooing in swimming pools which is a new it's not a title of a new show it is Danny Dyer was talking about on a clip from his new show for sky and rebecca have you been busy filing i found some stuff i've been to some stuff that i'm kind of storing ideas away for future features and things like that but no it's been good so who's had a good festival so far so we were kind of i was canvassing this with with colleagues on the broadcast team and i have to credit uh my colleague alice redmond for this who went the bitches the bitches have had a good festival who are the bitches i mean i'm not going to name names but it's definitely been a catty festival i would say there have been people taking swipes at each other um you know channel four took a swipe at netflix channel five took a swipe at channel four about one of our articles sort of um yeah it's just been it's been fun it's been there's been some beef do you know bitchiness is because people are sort of self-assured or we are in a bit of a we are some cats in the bag having a fight i'm not sure that does feel like it and it feels like it's a deliberate strategy right it does feel like people have been told go out be punchy and I don't know if it's a sense of listen the industry's in a strange moment go out and look like you've got opinions go out and look like you've got something to say go and look like we're coming out swinging and I think that's what's going on, I think it's a very deliberate thing but it's great for us there's plenty of copy, stuff for us to write about Boyd, who do you think has had a good festival?

3:44Well I was going to say on the back of that, Louisa Compton who I've known for years and she used to work on Richard Bacon remember him? Yes whatever happened to which occasion no he's doing brilliantly with all his formats anyway she is like head of news at Charleston is that right thank you she's caused a stir part of your whole thing I want to be clear that I am calling no individuals particularly no it's a collective vibe male female male bitches but Louisa who I love who is brilliant she has caused a stir but She said that the Netflix people who swooped in to get Stephen Graham in adolescence, etc., and Jack writing it, were tourists, TV tourists, I think she coined the phrase.

4:33And I think that's become one of the most interesting ideas and stories of the festival. She's sort of saying they haven't done the work to create these individuals. Or that, more fairly, Channel 4 and other PSBs did a lot of the groundwork work, you know, in working with Jack Thorne, working with Stephen Graham previously. Which is true. Yeah, she did some really good Channel 4 shows, and Jack Thorne has. And fair enough, but I don't necessarily agree with her, by the way. I just think it's good to cause a stir, especially for journalists and people like us. I'm vaguely a journalist. So I bumped into her on the way to the McTaggart drinks, and she seemed slightly taken aback by the extent of the stir she had caused.

5:16So I didn't think she didn't go out there deliberately to do this at all. It's definitely what she honestly thinks. I happen to think that, you know, in the end, when it comes to talent, you know, would you say that, you know, I don't know, the person who cast Tom Cruise in his first film endlessly has to take credit for Mission Impossible, do you know what I mean? So I don't really particularly agree with that, but I thought it was a really interesting idea, and it has definitely caused a stir. I thought it was interesting with the streamers versus traditional broadcasters, the streamers have had a fairly soft ride over the last few years yeah doing lots of really amazing things everyone's really excited maybe really can commission my stuff is there a bit of a pushback they're not really doing spotlight sessions this year um is it sort of a fight back against the streamers Rebecca I think there's a little bit of well if you're not here we're going to talk about you and PSB's feeling like this is our turf and I think there is something about you know we've had adolescence we've had toxic town um you know we've definitely had other shows this year which from streamers which feel like they could have been on you know if budgets were less of an issue that they could have been on the psps and i suppose the psps are probably feeling a little bit nervous about that but and you know the psps are an interesting moment where either they've got advertising issues or they've got license fee coming up and you sort of think yeah i sort of want the psps to come out swinging a little bit to really sort of you know make a case for what it is that's great about them and how they're valuable to the ecosystem so yeah i i think there is definitely a sense of if the streamers aren't going to show up in the same way people are going to talk about them.

6:44I'll talk about creators as well. I've seen people doing well on YouTube, people doing well on TikTok. Where does TV fit into all of that? And I've been in the YouTube session, I've been in the TikTok session. I don't see there's like an answer for the broadcasters. It's like join in, come and join in. I'm not sure what they have that's super special. Am I being mean about the YouTube? Yeah, about the kind of traditional content providers jumping into that space creators seem to be holding their own fine and going i'm not sure i need to play with you that much my feeling is that the old school people who run the traditional outlets traditional broadcasters vaguely waving around their hands going we need to do something with this youtube thing and some these tiktokers and they don't really know what apart from getting them involved in strictly come dancing and stuff um but that but but why why should they really it's I mean, effectively, you know, in America recently, what, suddenly, majority of young people in America are watching YouTube over broadcast and certainly network TV.

7:46But I feel like people should be fairly relaxed about that because, A, they're watching YouTube on their TVs, which they just flick over and watch something else that might not be on YouTube, so that's fine. And I think there are slightly different propositions as well. People are always going to find talent from YouTubers, I think, you know. So I'm going to be surprised, for example, because obviously Sky's doing Saturday Night Live. I bet they're scouring YouTube for some comedy talent to be part of that huge cast that they'll need. So I think I think it's I'm fairly relaxed about it. The broadcast is talking a lot about YouTube.

8:15Channel 4.0 being held up as a big success and does really well on views. They're putting a lot of linear television on on YouTube, which has sort of mixed and mixed results. Do you think they've got you've talked to them? Do you think they've got a better idea of what they're doing there? There's certainly been a call for PSBs to start putting more content on YouTube, making more content on YouTube from Ofcom, saying, look, you guys have got to get into this. And Channel 4, as you say, have been leading the way on it. They do quite good numbers on their original stuff. Whether or not they're going to expand that, I suspect they will be.

8:47Yeah, stuff like you've got ITV that are putting whole episodes up. They're not necessarily getting huge numbers there. I mean, one thing they were saying to us, Craig Morris came and spoke at the Broadcast Summit about it. so he's the head of ITVX and was sort of saying we can put whole episodes up and it doesn't cannibalise, it adds viewers but I'm not sure how many viewers it's adding and similarly with Channel 4 it's not clear how much money they're actually making from this new content so there is a sense of YouTube is where the viewers are, we need to go where the viewers are, we need to be ready for TV to evolve but no one's quite worked out okay, how do we pay for it, how do we, and it's the same issue that traditional publishing has had, right?

9:26There's so many. How do we make it work? We know we need to go there. But like, what do we do when we get there? Rebecca, any other chatter you've been hearing? I mean, there's a lot of gossip about who's going to get various jobs that are going in the industry. It's really hard to tell, though, when you're talking to people whether or not these are names that people are sort of throwing into the mix because they're like, well, I'd like to be in the mix. Or, you know, I'd like my boss to think I could be in the mix and maybe think that, OK, I might be more valuable. And, you know, so that's that's always kind of fun.

9:54And yeah, how much of that is, you know, anything is going to turn into anything firm. Who knows? You know, there's still very up in the air with quite a few of the big top jobs in the industry. So we'll see. OK, stick around. We're going to try and catch up with Jake Cantor in a bit and talk McTaggart.

10:13I'm with Liam Wilton, CEO of Shine and Zapatron in the Boyzone zone. What was there? This is in Sky's little section of the Edinburgh TV Festival. We've just come off a session about Last One Laughing. Great show. Huge success for series one. Did everyone expect it to do so well? No, I really didn't. I genuinely didn't know that many people could watch Amazon Prime. Like, it was in a really encouraging way. When I saw, I think it's the first episode's up to 8 million. And when I saw... Which would be good for broadcast. Amazing for broadcast. I know. I was like, oh, no. I mean, yes, it was encouraging that actually it did so well.

10:55I found a really broad audience, as Kat Lynch said in the session. It opened four queues. That's what it means, a young male, young female, old male. Yeah, just everyone. I don't know what their four queues are, but essentially it hit a very broad audience. But I think the day when I was in Waterloo Station with a friend, and we went through the travel later bit. Do you know the bit between the sort of jubilee light? And the whole tunnel had all of the faces of the people there. And that was the moment I really thought, holy shit, this bed you out on. Because they'd spent a lot of money on the morning.

11:27They are all in on this. And then luckily over the next couple of days I started getting texts from people saying how much they loved it. And you know, so it was a huge success. In the session they sort of suggested everyone they chose sort of said yes and it wasn't really anybody else. Did many people turn it down? It was, the way it worked was, as I recall, because it's quite a long process getting it through the tender process. And then there was a process with budgeting. And then they basically said, if you get, I think, three to five of these people, we are good to go. Right. And that happened remarkably quickly, like within a week or so.

12:04So there was a kind of like, as soon as we had like three, I think it was three we needed to get out of about eight names. But I think what happened was all the people we went to first all did say yes. So within about a week and a half, suddenly we had enough and we went back to Amazon and said, look, you know, we've got those people and they're like, right. And then that's when they finally pressed go on the whole thing. And they didn't know who else was on it. I mean, they weren't meant to know. Yeah, I'm sure some comedians will talk. So there were no, we didn't tell them certainly in the kind of the offer phase.

12:34But then you get your text from someone going, you'd realize they all talk and they were like, I'll do it if you're doing it and that sort of stuff. And I think that from recollection, Richard wanted to do it, Bob did it and vice versa. Okay. So they were both, they were asking. This is like a kind of Pepsi Coke situation for Live Aid. When we would have had either, but I think both of them were like, oh, if they'll do it, I'll do it. Because they're just, I don't know if they're necessarily mates in their life, but they are fans of each other. And they were like, and I think they want that security of knowing there's someone there that they're kind of gel with.

13:04So did that make season, the success of it, did that make season two easy to book or harder to book? I think it's, you know, the freight, I mean, I've heard other people say this, you can already imagine the disappointing series to follow up. That's what was it. I mean, to be clear, I'm not massively involved in the show. The guys at Zepitron, Peter, Ruth, Chris, Richard, Deborah, they like, and obviously initial with Katie and her team. They like, it's very much their baby. But I, just to see it, their success has been wonderful. But the, but that, I did have this sort of like, oh no, it's going to be really hard to top this.

13:35and almost, you can already hear the people on Twitter going, this isn't as good as a series one. So I was, so yeah, that was a, but in terms of booking, yeah, like I said, it was pretty straightforward. I mean, people want, I mean, some people - It's a hit. It's a hit, yeah. You don't get many hits. When you get a hit, people tend to want to do it. But then as they said in the session, it's really about getting the balance right. So even if you just had 10 people you'd love to do it, you wouldn't necessarily put them all in the same series anyway, because it just wouldn't be the right combination.

14:03Well, I thought it was interesting, a sort of joint project with Zepatron and Initial, which obviously are both Banerjee companies. Initial obviously had all that big brother experience, sort of fixed rig, and they sort of did a lot of the production end, and then the Zepatron guys were a bit more talent editorial led. Yes. Is that a strange way to run a thing, or is that new to the business? I think it's going to become increasingly common. I think Patrick of Allard Arts, CEO of Banerjee, is keen for those collaborations to happen where it gives us basically maximise the chance of getting something commissioned and makes it better.

14:36And I think that felt like a very obvious combination between the two. And I think it's Kayce, you said in the session, both probably felt and could have made it on their own. But it maximised our chance of getting it made and making it good from day one. So who's in season two? So we've just been announced. Ford Mortimer is back to Defence Crale. And we have, to see if I can remember, I've got to remember, David Mitchell, Ben Misola Ikuemo, Diane Morgan, Mel Gedroich, Maisie Adam, Romesh Ranganathan, oh god I can't remember I'm still three short, Sam Campbell, Alan Carr, did I say Alan Carr? I think I missed Alan Carr.

15:13Amy Gledhild, I forgot Eamon sorry. I nearly did it. Yeah, those are the 10 people and then obviously Jimmy and Rasheed are back. And it's all been filmed? All been filmed. I was there on the day, about six weeks ago in Elstreet. Where are you on the edit? We are, well Richard Cohen, I was hoping was going to be at that session, but he couldn't make it up because I think he was like doing first cut of episode four yesterday, viewing of episode, like it's literally right in the middle of it. And there's been a viewing with Amazon for the first couple of episodes, it's right in the heat of it. And it's looking really good.

15:47It's really funny. I know we'll have to say that. But it is different. It was very interesting because more people had seen it this time. all people came in with a bit of a strategy. Ah, yes. Which was... Well, that's the classic rarity TV thing, isn't it? Yeah, it is. Year one of Big Brother, what the hell is this? Year two, I've watched it all and I know what to do. Even comedians who primarily want to be funny, they came in a bit more, apart from Alan, I would say, who did only when he got there, went, I should probably have a strategy for this. And we were worried about Alan, if I'm honest, because I've worked with Alan Carr, and he's one of the nicest, funniest people you ever meet.

16:23but he does like to laugh and when he went in there was a phone like don't go too early Alan so he just before he went in he was like I think his strategy was to eat he was eating quite a lot that's what I probably should say but I think he suddenly thought what can I do so he offered an apple I think sort of his mouth that was his so people came in with a bit of a strategy and I think that in a way it was interesting it's a different narrative takes place because that I mean you know everyone's trying to break each other it took a bit longer what we did this time or the team did is the jokers i think have stepped up a level okay there was a bit more like because people wanted to bring everyone prepared in advance before but now there's like it's a level there's a level i was like wow and i think that actually helped because everyone's coming in with a bit more of a game face on yeah but then you've got these bigger set pieces which kind of like a good more chance of breaking people so it's good i'm hoping it'll do all right Or would it actually be the disappointing second series, as I say.

17:18So you charted at Shain a year, about 18 months ago. 18 months ago, yeah. I imagine quite a busy 18 months, particularly because of MasterChef. Yeah, yeah, that's been... Well, we were already moving the show to Birmingham. So when I arrived, the studio bill was starting in Birmingham. So because the decision was made to move the show to Birmingham a year and a half before I started. and that was my focus is trying to get helping get that show up and running in Birmingham because you know removing any production is difficult but a show where there's three different versions of it and they all overlap and there's edits and all the rest of it in a brand new studio which is amazing that was kind of a big part of the year and then obviously what happened was challenging a different way in one sense for me because I wasn't around for a lot of it it was quite um useful is the wrong word but you know I had a different perspective yeah my job is to support I wasn't involved in the investigation, so I was able to be fairly neutral for it.

18:13My job was to support the team and try and get everyone through it while that was all carried out. And now I think we're in a good place. You know, it's done. And we start filming the next series in two weeks' time in Birmingham. We've shot two series in Birmingham this year which haven't gone out yet, which is a real shame. We've got 150 people working on the show in Birmingham. They are so delighted to have us there and are so excited about the show. and all those people are new and they just want the show to go out and keep making great shows for a great new series of MasterChef so there's two series that will be shot that will go out in time and we're starting the third series they're shooting there in two weeks time we have our hosts, I can't say who they are and we'll announce at some point in the next couple of weeks but the thing I probably want to talk about is that just how excited Birmingham are to have us there and what that means for that show and that production community because obviously it was a big BBC decision and then moving you guys there, a few other things that are happening there, and giving it a home in a place that really wants it.

19:17Does that make a little difference to the production? Do you find someone's worked in production all their life, Dash? What does it mean to have regional production like that? Well, I think first and foremost, I would like to say, a lot of the team, some of the team from London have moved up and some have been working up there. So some of them, that is challenging for them. and that is that has been a difficult thing to deal with so that got a reference and there's a lot of people that are still working the show want to and that but the point is i said essentially the bbc want to spend more money outside london and they have identified from what i can understand birmingham is a place where they probably weren't spending enough money and investing in it enough and marshef is the first part of that jigsaw and i think that when you turn up and when we one of the things i'm very like it's been kind of very comforting about whole process is that just how pleased Birmingham are.

20:03So we've got Create Central, Boeing City Council, various other bodies are all keen, they've all been working with, we've run a university course at the University of Solihull with our casting producer training up people to be casting producers on reality and faction entertainment shows because we're trying to skill up the area and Shine and MasterChef are a big part of that. So that's been really lovely to see that and kind of really, not just lovely, but like actually really good for Birmingham, I think, in the long term. So that's been good and there's a vibe on the show where, because there are a lot of people who are new on it, they're just cracking on and making last show.

20:40I mean, fact show entertainment, I think non-script is having a bit of a troublesome time, I think it was the freelance community as well. What's the current direction of travel? What are you seeing when you're talking to broadcast students? I think probably the fewer and bigger strategy is still probably the dominant strategy for BBC ITV Channel 4, by and large. I think there's probably scope for a sort of mid price point to come back in some places. I think that, you know, we see that strategy is great because it means if you land a show, you get all those eyeballs and everyone loves it. And also if it doesn't work, it's a bit exposing.

21:15So I think that essentially is still like, you know, big sort of like, you know, in fact, it's like these big reality shows around, you know, up to a million pounds an episode to a budget. The PSPs want to get involved in and then sometimes they want to partner with American companies will do global stuff to get those shows up and running quicker and reduce the risk to them. So I think that's probably still the kind of, well certainly that's what Shine we're making. We're making big shows with like big non-scriptive reality shows. We shot two series of Hunted Over the Summer, which was great. And we've got the summit going out for ITV next year, which we shot in New Zealand, which is a big reality show on a mountain.

21:51So we're aiming big because that seems what the market wants. And we also have got, we're doing a few little small things. We're doing a thing with Francis Bourgeois. Yes. For Channel 4. We shot a series which is brilliant that's going out in a couple of months for Channel 4. And that's a bit more like... What's he doing in it? He's trying to become an astronaut. Yes. He's trying to become an astronaut. He's the guy from the train. For the train. He's like, genuinely like... I was... Is it a character? I'm confused. No, no, no, no, no. That's him. No, no, no. He's... I mean, I have... Yeah. And I was also, you know, When someone comes from TikTok, because I'm an old telly person, there's a little part of it, he's like, oh, is this just a bit of...

22:27Francis Bourgeois is like the future of television in a way that I couldn't quite... Only while making this show have I really realised how fucking amazing it is. It's his passion and enthusiasm and knowledge, of course, he does, that is so captivating. And that's why I think he obviously connects with a young audience on TikTok. And I think that's when he gets... He was doing the grand tour, isn't he? since we hired him on the show he's got like a series for everyone I think our show will be the first one that goes out which is like a proper show with him at the centre of it I think and it's really good it's really good it's a bit Louis Theroux meets Guy Martin meets sort of who's sort of like also a bit like what's the guy Nathan Fielder but he's real so yeah I hope people find that looking forward to all those things thank you very much hope you've done Good.

23:20Do you want to say anything about master?

23:27I'm with Heather Fallon from Broadcast and Frazz Oslund from Gold Waller. We're talking Channel 4 and Channel 5. Both just come out of sessions looking at those channels. Heather, Ben Frow, Chief Content Officer at Channel 5. Always an entertaining session. Always an entertaining session. What did he have to say? Ben Frow had quite a lot to say actually. He got two articles out of it so that's how much he had to say. But Ben always has a lot to say. And I think a reason why a lot of people like to turn up to those sessions is because he's not afraid to take a swipe. Yes, he was very complimentary about the Channel 4 head of content.

24:01Yes, on paper, I would say that Ben was very complimentary of Ian Capps. I actually have the line here. He's a genius. I think he's completely reinvented television. And I take my hat off to his originality and creativity. although he did ask why no one was laughing straight after. I think he had some choice words for it. And he also talked about whether Channel 5's Henry sold. Yes, so the other thing that he did do was confirm that under his impression Channel 5 will not be sold as part of the merger with Skydance. He said they'd spoken to the new boss and they really liked what Channel 5 was doing and they were confident it would be going forward.

24:44So that's a nice confirmation to have. It's good, it's good. And what happened in the Channel 4 session? Well, at the bottom of the stairs, we all are streaming out of the Channel 4 session. You know, it's really interesting what Heather just said, because there is a little bit of, like, sniping between the broadcasters and the streamers. They're all kind of, like, having little digs at each other, which, you know, as an indie, I think is really fun. It's good that that's happening. And as a journalist, great coffee. It's kind of quite lovely. I mean, look, they talked about how they're pushing more into regions.

25:07They talked about how, you know, the fast-forward strategy. Sounds like they're doubling down on drama. I think that's the big takeaway for a lot of people, is that they're doubling their drama spend, which as somebody who works in Unscripted is slightly terrifying there were a few criticisms from the audience they're working with the same writer, Stephen Moffat lots of people that we hear Russell T Davies, we hear the same name Jack Thorne, again and again and again we're in a new writer's space how are they cutting through with new ideas they showed some interesting stuff they've got a few new reality shows that they're coming out with they said that last year they were looking at reality the year before that they were looking at docs and then next year is their drama doubling down on the streaming service.

25:47And they've sort of been talking about drama for about six months, haven't they? Is it new news? Well, I mean, they're doubling the spend. And look, the reality is you can talk about it all you want, but until you spend the money, it's probably not going to mean anything. So if that is true, they're doubling the spend, then that probably means that something is going to come out of it. But it's important to say that they double the spend there, spending less money elsewhere. I mean, it wasn't really clear where those cuts are. I mean, Channel 4 is getting quite a lot of grief from delegates about their push.

26:11Channel 4 getting grief for Edinburgh. Who would have thought it? They're potentially going to build their own production outfit. No one seems happy about that. Well, look, I mean, I think that the reason that people aren't happy about those sorts of things, there's so much ambiguity about it. I don't even think they really know what it is. Do they know what their plans are? Are they having to kind of busk it somewhat? You know what? It's funny. One of the things that we come to Edinburgh for is to, you know, try and get an idea of who's going to be the head of Channel 4 in house production, for instance.

26:39It feels like no one wants to put their name on that role. in the same way that you get people wanting to float their name for other big jobs. I feel like it's almost a bit of a poison chalice because it feels like to put your name on being in-house means that you're going to be eating from someone else's plate. You're going to be taking their potential commissions in the future. So it does feel like something that people are a bit more nervous about, I would say. There's battles between Channel 4 and Channel 5. Also, interesting how the streamers are here this year. So last year, last couple of years, the streamers have been sort of elevated to the same level as the main networks, with sessions that were looking at what they were doing.

27:20This year, not so much. You're kind of here, but not here. Yeah, kind of closed-door sessions, some of the press can't go to, and other streamers get them. Do I count as press, by the way? I don't count as press. By doing this podcast, I don't count as press. If you're basing on the same press, you're good. Right, OK, that's fine. So you could go to a Netflix session. I could have gone to a Netflix session, which you could not have. You were very quick on the draw because there were only 150 places and a lot more than 150 attendees at Edinburgh Festival. Like I said, they're here, but they're not here.

27:47There was actually, you know, a snipe from me and Katz about the fact they're not doing a spotlight session. But they were in a development session that I was in. As I said, they are talking to delegates. They're talking to people here. You know, I haven't seen Apple do anything. I don't think, you know, Amazon may be on a couple of panels. I haven't seen them do anything in their entirety. Should they get away with Hayden? Well I think the problem for me is this is the International Edinburgh TV Festival but yet we're talking about UK TV, Channel 4 and Channel 5 which are very much British channels.

28:15So there's a bit of a, there's two things one is the branding of the festival because they need to be here and say what they want for the sake of their festival and they're spending a lot of money and there's chats about how they've inflated the price of television and it means that some people have been muscled out of TV etc so they are, you know, they should be held up to some level of scrutiny but the reality is they don't have to be are they hiding or they're just playing their own game i can sympathize with i think there is some frustration from the uk broadcasters and it's every year i do a spotlight session and i have my feet held to the fire but the streamers don't necessarily have that same obligation and i can totally understand why that is frustrating and it is interesting speaking to a lot of people walking around And they have definitely pointed out the whole kind of streamer divide and whether or not it's fair that, you know, Anne Mentor and Fosier from Netflix and Amazon have both done a session.

29:11But it's good in a way because they could be a bit more candid and maybe say some things without the press being there to kind of follow that up. But at the same time, it does mean that they're not necessarily being held accountable in the same way. So it's a tricky balance. I think they have, Rowan Woods did say that they're likely to come back next year and do a spotlight, but there is that kind of imbalance, which I can see is from showing. I guess there would be. Heather Price, thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you.

29:42It's the Media Club, supported by Audio Network here at the Edinburgh TV Festival. I'm here with one of their customers, Jordan Laird from Studio Something. Hello. Yes, how are you doing? Very good, thank you. Are you local? I am, yes, I am. It feels interesting that we work in this industry and then this TV festival just lands here. But tell us more about the company. A lot of sport-based productions or branded content as well. Yeah, I mean, we sort of fell into sport to some extent in the sense of we set up the company. Myself and my business partner, Ian, we used to work in advertising. And when we were working in there, we realised that advertising takes a long time to make.

30:17We would work on scripts and it would take like six months. And then you'd go on television and none of your friends watched it. In our spare time we would make music videos because we had an interest in film. It was an easy way to try and make film because most bands we found out wanted music videos but had no money. So they would let us make whatever they wanted. So we started the music videos and we realised you could turn them around quick. They had an idea at the heart and we realised actually maybe you could do this for brands. And obviously now that's obvious ten years on that that became branded content.

30:46So we started working with a lot of brands in Scotland, producing short form documentaries and content, bringing in sort of the advertising ideas, but into essentially entertainment content. And then at some point probably TV kind of caught up with a little bit of that. BBC up here in Scotland launched a channel about six years ago now, and they were looking for pilots around football and sport and fan culture. So we presented an idea around looking at Scottish football all across the board and understanding what fans love about it. And it became a weekly show called A View from the Terrace. We didn't realise what a returnable format was.

31:23Yes. And it turned out we are accidentally, our first commission ever was a returnable format. Well, it's been seven seasons of that. Seven seasons, yeah. We literally started the eighth season pre-production today. And then from there, we've moved into documentaries for BBC, long-form documentaries. And how are you finding the small indie fund? It's been fantastic, I have to say that. No, no, no, no. No, that's all. No, we are probably sometimes victims of our own, where we just get our head down and work away and just keep working and working on what we're making. But this year we made a concerted effort to let's try and sort of put our heads up and try and develop properly.

32:00So, yeah, we applied for the Small Indie Fund. We've got an incredible mentor at the BBC. And, yeah, weirdly, the first idea we came up with on the Small Indie Fund has got us into a longer development with BBC, which you can't say anything about, which I probably ruined. I probably broke some sort of NDA there, but yeah. And making things has changed as well. I mean, you talk about coming from an advertising world into the broadcast world, how we produce things, how we record them, how we film them, how we score them. All of that's starting to, all that's changed. I think so. I mean, I suppose for us, when we started off, we started off in a position where I would use the camera, Ian would produce things, he would direct, I would direct.

32:40We were always quite cautious of, it's only the two of us, So we try to learn as much as we possibly could at the start, learn editing, just basically for self-preservation, for the idea of if it all goes tits up, at least we can go back to the two of us and we know how to, I don't know, we'll always be able to make a corporate video. So we've always been quite cautious of being able to try and learn as many parts of the process as possible. I think it's always useful. I think Nelson can fire his own cannon. Yeah, I think there's something valuable in that. Yeah, I might be rubbish at firing the cannon, but I do know the logics of firing the cannon.

33:14I'm not very good at producing, but I do understand the spreadsheet. So how are you finding scoring your shows, whether Brandon's shows or broadcasts? I love, and I'm not just saying this, I love picking music. It's one of my favourite parts of it, because ultimately, you'll know, you can change something very badly, dramatically, by putting the wrong song on it. Also, I find a fun thing with the editor is we will always go and pick the most inappropriate song first. just to see what it does to it. You've got this beautiful scene and you weren't on it for ages and contributors opened up. You're like, let's just put some comedy on it, just for a minute.

33:49You know when you get in an edit and you get a little bit stir-crazy. So it's always a fun thing to put the wrong song on it. But no, I love finding music. And then when you find that right song, because you have to go through 20, 30 songs, not because they're bad songs, but just you're like, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Oh, that just might be the one. It's one of those things that you know what the answer is. Where do you find it? Oh, 100%. You're like, that is the perfect. See, when you find it first time or second time, you're like, oh, my goodness. It's like in a true Malteser. You're like, oh, this is the best thing ever.

34:20So other than starting with the Benny Hill music, what is the true way you start to go, actually, what should this be? I think a lot of the time, it's probably a simple trial and error. It's what I would do. Just listen to it, put your ominous sound and just bouncing through songs. And you almost know immediately when you hear a little something, you're like, oh, that, that might, and we always got this phrase, like, that could work. And then usually that could work means, I think this is the song. Because you don't want to put, you don't want to pin all your hopes on it, and then the editor thinks you're an idiot when he puts it on.

34:50Also, there's a terrifying moment when you send an editor some songs, you're like, I think these could work. He or she is judging me so badly here. Well, I also noticed on your LinkedIn, you made a short film about your lad's football team. Oh, yeah. Is the company sponsoring their shirt? Yes, yeah. I mean, that feels like a life milestone when you can sponsor your little boys football team. You feel Man United and all these big teams, and you're like, imagine we did that for an eight-year-old football team. And I think it was one of my most favourite films I've ever made because they kids loved it.

35:26They felt like they were on Sky Sports. So you got them to do all the poses and give us the celebrations. We've kind of fallen into doing sport a lot, But I think to me what sport is, it's just a vehicle for stories. Winning, losing, ambition, hopes, fears, and it comes around every time. And every game, those things come back alike. So it's not so much that we're massive sports fans. I think we're massive fans of storytelling and people, and sport is full of that. That was Jordan Laird. Remember, Audio Network can score your next project. Just head to audionetwork.com. There's a link in our show notes, but just head to audionetwork.com.

36:05When we return, we'll find out whether the Observer and Tortoise boss, James Harding, was the right pick to do the McTaggart lecture. And there's still time for the media quiz. I'll see you in a sec. Hello, Media Club listeners. Patrick here from Podcast Discovery, the podcast marketing company, where this week we've been thinking about podcast advertising. Yes, that thing we're doing right now. How do you make sure you're targeting the right listeners on the right shows? What should you say to them when you get there? And what kind of data are you able to get out of the campaign to help you understand how successful you've been?

36:39For answers to all of these questions and anything else to do with podcast marketing, book in a call at podcastdiscovery.com. That's podcastdiscovery.com. Here's a tip for you. There's a podcast out there with fans waiting to be your next customer. They tune in every week. They trust the host. And that host wants to talk about brands like yours in their own words to their audience. The problem is, you just haven't been introduced yet. We're Acast, where that introduction happens. As the world's largest podcast marketplace, we let you browse shows, see who's listening, and book host-read sponsorships or run your own ads all from one platform.

37:21Transparent pricing, real-time data, complete control. Start advertising on podcasts by visiting acast.com slash advertise.

37:34So before we go back to the fray, I thought it'd be useful to pick up on some of the stories you might have missed whilst we've been away. Now, it may be a tech-savvy magazine, but Wired has had to pull an article after it assessed that it has most probably an AI work of fiction. The article was published under the name Margeau Blanchard, who has bylines in a A number of other outlets all now are being investigated. Podcast giant Wondery has cut almost its entire workforce, 110 layoffs in total, with those left either moving into Audible or into Amazon's creator department. Execs for hit show British Scandal remain in post, suggesting a future for that brand.

38:14But the mood amongst narrative production houses, many of whom have had commissions out of Wondery, isn't great. And any journalist looking for a staff job at REIT should consider moving to Australia. The news outlet behind The Mirror, The Express and others have decided to refocus their overnight team by hiring Down Under, according to the Press Gazette. All those stories and more are available on our sub-stack. Sign up for free at themediaclub.com. That's themediaclub.com. OK, time to talk about the McTaggart Lecture this year from Observer slash Tortoise Boss James Harding. We'll catch up with Jake Cantor in a sec, but first, let's see a clip.

38:53It's kind of extraordinary. If Parliament chooses not to renew the Royal Charter in 2027, the BBC will just cease to exist. This, by the way, is different from universities or other organisations that are established by charter in perpetuity. The BBC, which politicians can't help but keep on a leash is in effect on a 10-year contract. And it's true politically. Donald Trump has, as you'll have seen, cut$1.1 billion from the funding of public broadcasters in the US, killing off the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, forcing the closure of many local stations, and hacking away at NPR and PBS. Donald Trump has driven a partisan divide in trust.

39:4554 % of Democrats trust the media. It's just 12 % of Republicans. A similar partisan gap is opening up here. So what you get in James is, you know, he's a deep thinker. So it's James Harding, runs Tortoise and the Observer now. Observer now. Former BBC News chief, you know, former editor of the Times, so he's sort of plugged into the Murdoch empire a little bit. And, you know, he's a deep thinker, obviously cares very deeply about news. What he delivered was effectively a very full-throated case for safeguarding the BBC's independence from politicians. And he's doing that. And tech bros. And tech bros, yes.

40:27Both of those things. And he talks about sort of untangling the BBC from government decisions of funding, about government appointments to its board. And I think that those things are incredibly sensible. and the BBC, I'm sure, will be glad that we've had a MacTaggart that has put those things on the agenda. Why do you think you did it? Why do you think you re-went on it on the BBC? So I think, I mean, he was quite clear that we've got reform surging in the polls. The reform platform is to turn off the BBC? Yeah, it's to abolish the licensing. And probably go further than that. And he put it in the context of what's going on in America, where Donald Trump has clearly attacked public service, media, and James Harding set it in that context that if we don't put in place these safeguards and we have a reformed government, the BBC's future could be in jeopardy, very serious jeopardy.

41:29And that is not good for the country. It's not good for democracy. It's not good for the viewers. I guess on the reform front, even if it's a coalition between reform and the Conservatives, that could be a thing that they argue to happen. So it's not in the realms of impossibility. We have seen the BBC's independence being threatened time and again. And I think, and James Harding mentions this in his speech, by Labour. Yes. I think we need to be really clear about that. Lisa Nandy, the current Culture Secretary, has clearly overstepped boundaries. She has consistently shown on certain crises that she is calling for the head of the director general, albeit using a language that is perhaps not as direct as the words that I've just used.

42:16And she has bypassed the board to raise concerns about BBC editorial matters directly from the director general. And from what I understand, the BBC does not like that and does not think it's appropriate. So you've got some of the sections of all stripes and colors, perhaps, overstepping the mark in terms of the BBC's independence. And the other thing he talks about was kind of BBC GPT. So an idea of taking the BBC's archive and turning that into a kind of a larger language model and maybe there's funding opportunities with that trusted resource to sell to the tech companies. Yes. Is that doable?

42:54It felt a bit half-baked to me. We must get AI on the agenda. Have you got any big thinking ideas? I don't know. I'm not so sure about that. I'm sure the BBC is giving a lot of thought to what it does with its archive. I've heard chatter of big tech companies making approaches to the BBC to access its deep well of content. Yeah, I'm sure we'll hear more about it going forward. I'm not sure it will be what James is suggesting. I think James has got an interesting voice where he sort of sits on the left-right spectrum. Telly is obviously usually pointed to a bunch of lefties. Are we getting a broad selection of ideas and thought here?

43:40Yeah, I think, look, let's be a no-doubt, this is quite a liberal festival. I would like to have seen a few more conservative voices for the reasons that we've discussed, you know, with Trump in power in America and reform surging here in the polls. I do think it's really important that the industry is thinking about those voices, and not just of the politicians, but of the viewers that support those voices. If you look at UK television networks, one of the few that is growing is GV News. Yes. And they are not on any platform here. Now, that might be their decision. and the festival may have approached them.

44:20I don't know. And sort of a success isn't sort of a news channel. I mean, it's basically creating daily programming that people, certain people find attractive. And so it's getting regular viewers and that's starting to tackle the news channels where it's normally grouped together on like average hours of listening and average 30 minutes of listening. Yes. Like it or load it, what GB News is doing is impressive and they are clearly accessing an audience that is feeling disenfranchised by other major broadcasters here in the UK. And the industry needs to grapple with that. It needs to be having open conversations about that.

44:56And that is not happening at this year's Edinburgh. And I think that's a shame. The last thing, let's get back to BBC. I think you're at the BBC session with the new content boss. Yes, Kate Phillips' first Edinburgh. She was very confident. She gives a bit more of herself than Charlotte Moore. She's a bit more relaxed on these platforms. She's been in the job for a couple of months. Everyone I speak to has been really impressed by her early decision making. She was asked about MasterChef and handled that pretty smoothly. She was in receipt of a complaint about Greg Wallace in 2017. And she talked about what she did and why she didn't fire him at the time.

45:38And I thought she handled that reasonably well. And then she just talked about the programming strategy. you know actually the bbc's in in reasonable health you know you look at things like the traitors uh you know other big shows that they've got coming up you've got the night manager coming up potentially maybe around christmas time you know yeah there's some things on the agenda that she can you know state quite clearly the bbc's doing all right on and any commissioning coming up anything interesting that they're working on next well the big thing was the celeb creators trailer which they showed oh interesting I mean, it didn't give anything away about the show, but they announced that that's coming in October.

46:18So that's something to look forward to in the darker days of autumn. Do that be first before the regular civilian version? Yes, it's October and then I think the next civilian series will be in the new year. OK. So, yeah, we're going to get a traitor's treat this autumn. Anybody you saw in the trailer that you thought they're going to win? Well, they kept saying that the comparison they made was to Vanessa Feltz when she did Big Brother. And when you were watching that, they're like, I can't believe we're able to capture Vanessa Feltz crawling all over a table. It's like that all the time, watching celebrities.

46:54Interesting. And 25 years of Big Brother as well. So in June, we've got the next wave of reality telling. Jake Hunter, thank you very much. Thank you. You've got social dialed in. Search is doing its thing. So why do your marketing results look the same as six months ago? That's because you're fishing in the same pond as everyone else. Podcast listeners are a different audience entirely, more engaged, harder to reach through traditional channels, and ready to act when someone they trust makes a recommendation. We're Acast, and we put them right in front of you. Browse thousands of the world's leading podcasts, book host reads or run your own ads, and track every conversion in real time.

47:34Same skills you already have, brand new results. Acast. Acast.com slash advertise.

47:47Okay, even on location, the media quiz still happens here on the Media Club. And today we're going to be asking you whether you paid enough attention to all the commissioning announcements. In a quiz we're calling the weakest format. Right, lots of new TV shows been announced. You've just got to tell me whether they are true or false, whether they've really been commissioned or producer Matt has just made them up. Okay. You're taking turns to answer with 60 seconds on the clock. Let's play the weakest format. Rebecca, Channel 5 revised 80s anthology, Play for Today. Oh, that's true. It is true.

48:23Boyd, Celebrity Crazy Golf. False. Rebecca, Danny Dyer saves a caravan park. True. Boyd, when air fryers attack for Channel 5. False. Rebecca, Liz Hurley and Judge Rinder put members of the public against each other to win the contents of a will. True. It is true. Boyd, BBC announced second season of Destination X. Yes, true. False. Oh. Rebecca, how deep is your love, dating in a submarine? False. It is false. Boyd, a new BBC drama from Richard Gad. True. That is true. Rebecca, Ben Fogle rescues a Sheffield clothing brand. False. No, it's true. Boyd, the 10-year-old doctor, drama for CBBC. True.

49:11It's true. Adaptation of Off Menu for Sky Mix. False. It is false. Upstairs, downstairs drama set in 10 Downing Street. True. It's true. A reality show where Jonathan Ross handcuffs together odd couples. Oh, true. It is true, amazingly. It's an awful experience for everybody. It's a great show. It's an awful experience for everybody involved. Boyd, a footballer and seismologist chase earthquakes around the world for BBC2. False. It is false. Rebecca, rival law firms do battle starring Dominic West and Sienna Miller. True. That is for SkyHBO. Finally Boyd, a drama where a nun falls in love with a priest for Channel 4.

49:51True. It is true. The well-traumtell. That's our time. I think Boyd just scraped it. Congratulations. Thank you very much. Any of those that you're really looking forward to? I am really looking forward to the number 10, which is Stephen Moffat, we should say, is writing that. And I spoke to him last night, and he's telling me all about it, and it sounds fascinating. Cannot wait for that. I think it's a brilliant idea. And I consider it to be Stephen Moffat's West Wing. Ah, yes. We're all hoping for a West Wing reboot. So, Rebecca? I mean, similarly, I was at a chalifle dinner and talking Stephen Moffat's ear off about it.

50:26There you go. Oh God, I love the one swing. God, he must have been attached constantly by journalists. It was pathetic, but it was, yeah. So yeah, that I'm looking forward to. Honestly, after the Sky Spotlight session that you hosted, the Danny Dyer saves a caravan park. I'd sort of heard about this. Yeah. The clip from they have a meeting with the local, kind of the people who are using the caravan park to be like, what could we do better? And it just devolves into an argument about who's been misusing the swimming pool. Misusing is a very tasty way of putting it. Yeah. Yeah. It was a great clip, wasn't it?

50:55Well, well done. Thanks for joining us. How can people keep up with what you're up to at the moment? Well, I'm doing a session in about two hours on A Last One Laughing and a pilot TV podcast. Just, you know, get on it. Get it where you get this. Exactly. Rebecca? You can find my work on broadcastnow.co.uk. I'm on Blue Sky and most other things as Rebecca K. Cooney. Also, quick plug, if that's okay, for Best Places to Work, which is our annual kind of scheme. and there's a company that comes in and it does it all very thoroughly and sort of interviews the employers, the employees of different production companies, well, anybody in the industry.

51:29So if you think your company is a good place to work, please do get in touch because we really do want to hear from you. I guess head to broadcastnow.co.uk. And thank you for watching. Remember, you can press follow on your podcast app of choice or subscribe to us on YouTube. I'm Matt Deegan. The producer is Matt Hill. It was a Rethink Audio production with video support from Podcast Discovery. And we'll see you in a couple of weeks.

52:19We'll see you next time. host-read authenticity and performance data that proves it worked don't fight for attention buy it with a cast learn more by visiting a cast.com slash advertise

52:36right it's time for our annual listener survey if you can spare five minutes to share your opinions on the show not only will you help shape the future of the media club but one lucky respondent will win a£50 John Lewis voucher. Do it now. There's a link in the show notes or at themediaclub.com.