YouTube’s Audio Ads, Channel 4's Big Shake-Up

0:01Hello, welcome to the Media Club. I'm Matt Deegan. In the club today, YouTube is the world's number one podcast platform. But how many are actually watching Karin Robinson, Senior Director of Strategy at Edelman, on whether we all need to open our eyes? Also on the show, STV Studio CEO David Mortimer on mergers, acquisitions and more in the TV sector. All That's Plus, Channel 4 launches a Root & Branch review. And there's the Audio Network Media Quiz, where we test our guests' grasp of the week's news by dropping some big names. That's all coming up in the media club. Go on in.

0:38Joining me are two club members to discuss the week's biggest media stories. First, it's a welcome back to Karen Robinson. Karen has a hard job planning comms and strategy in this fragmented world. But Karen, who are you going to give your plus one to this week? Hi, Matt. So this week, I'm going to give it to two people, Anna Hall, the chef, and Grace Dent, the food critic. A lot of your listeners will be aware they took over presenting duties this week for BBC MasterChef. And I personally am thrilled by that. Grace Dent has obviously been a food critic on the show for many years. Anna Hall filled in on the show a few years ago when I think when Monica Galletti was off.

1:17And I was a big fan of her at that time. So looking forward to see what they do with a show that, frankly, irrespective of all the scandals, I think was probably due for a refresh anyway. So let's see where that goes. Yeah, I think it was definitely due for a reboot and it will give it a different flavour, I imagine. A distinctly more female flavour. Yeah, Grace Dents had a really interesting media career. The writing, obviously food being her thing. She's obviously lots of different bits of telly. but she could do this for a long time if it goes well for her. Yeah, she's a real pro. She knows what she's doing so I'm sure she'll make a success of it.

1:55And making his debut today, David Mortimer, CEO of SDV Studios and one of the people behind Dragon's Den, Louis Theroux's Weed Weekends, Criminal Record for Apple TV +, The Witness for Netflix but obviously now a member of the media club that's the best of all those credits. Delighted. Now you're in, who would you like to add as your plus ones? Well, yeah, I'm going to go plus twos again. sorry to be greedy i'm going to go with a couple of behind the scenes uh talent uh so a chap called matt steiner and his creative colleague adam wood now they run a street fighting indie primal media um they're very good but like lots of street fighting indies you know they were waiting for their their moment and their moment has come so yesterday it was announced that disney hulu have commissioned a massive new reality show from them the mob and you know that couldn't happen to two nicer guys they're very very talented and unusually they're also nice and this is in one of your stable it is yeah i'm sorry yeah you've pointed out that basically this is nepotism on my part that's fine i've only just got in the club and i'm already getting i mean what the club needs is another two white men to join it obviously um yeah so they're one of our stable um they're probably best known for a show called Release the Hounds back in the day.

3:11They also created a show called Cash Cap, which was a huge international format, again a few years back. But they've been developing big bold formats and that's their role in the group is really to take big swings. And the thing about taking big swings is a lot of the time you miss. And this time they've absolutely knocked out the park to take the metaphor further than anyone wanted it to go. And you've been working with the guys behind the traitors with studio lambert on on this as well um and it must be fun to to do something big for a big company so disney obviously owner of hooli absolutely it is it's you you don't have that thing that you sometimes get with a uk psb commission and don't get me wrong i love you uk psb commissions but almost from moment one you're thinking about you know how there's a mismatch really between the money available and the ambition and really when you work with one of the streamers gone are the days where they're just going to write you a blank check but certainly to to have the ambition to bring an idea to screen fully formed and the best version of that idea requires money and particularly for these big reality competitions you need to have the money to put enough crews on the ground so you're capturing all the reality that you want to capture you want to have a decent prize pot that the celebrities in this case are playing for that's one of the extraordinary things about this show actually is that it's uh obviously in the uk when celebrities play for money they do so for charity because that's that's what we do as brits whereas american celebrities as well as getting paid rather nicely to be on the show um are also paying playing for cash so um it's but it means that they really want to win that's good it's which brings a completely new dynamic to it and parker posey's hosting that one parker posey that's a good booking it's a very good booking a surprising booking but no we're Really, her role is to be both host, but also the kind of mother figure of this mafia family that we brought together.

5:09And she plays the role brilliantly. Okay, we might talk about it a bit later on too. Karen, Park Posey, that's a great choice for a reality show. Absolutely love her. She's my 90s indie film icon. So I'm delighted to hear that she's good to work with in person. They say never meet your heroes. And it always worries me when I like people. well some breaking news just as we're recording it should be announced that Sarah Cox is going to be the next presenter of the Radio 2 breakfast show obviously taking over after Scott Mills exited stage left earlier in the year Karen that's a good choice for Radio 2 obviously she's someone that's been on the network I think doing Drive for seven years obvious choice?

5:56I mean I don't know about obvious but a solid choice I think you know she's proven she can do that job she's an absolute pro knows her stuff I think they'll feel really good about about that decision and I think they probably are craving the safety of someone who they know they can rely on like that so yeah completely makes sense to me a safe pair of hands is a bit mean because she's a super talented host but that's a good choice for Radio 2 they're going to take me happy with that and she's actually also one of the nicest people in show business although people did say that about Scott Mills so I'm not suggesting anything untoward no Sarah is a brilliantly talented broadcaster a very nice person to be and loved by the Radio 2 audience and I think what the BBC have got really good at is bringing talent across from Radio 1 to Radio 2 not losing the audience in the meantime and so you've got someone there who's had a 20 year plus relationship with their listeners and so it doesn't feel risky.

6:58It doesn't feel dramatic. But that doesn't make it the wrong choice. I think it's spot on. We'll see how she gets on. I think she starts in the summer. Right, stick around. More media news next. Make Mother's Day even more special at Whole Foods Market. Kick off brunch or dinner with quality cheese and charcuterie with no synthetic nitrates. Then go seafood. There's an abundance on sale at Whole Foods Market, where it's all sustainable while cod are responsibly farmed. At the bakery, grab seasonal treats like their strawberry pretzel cream pie, and you can't go wrong with a ready-to-heat quiche Lorraine, deviled eggs, and fresh-cut fruits to go.

7:35Celebrate mom with Whole Foods Market. Security program on spreadsheets, new regulations piling up, and audit dread? It's time for Vanta. Vanta automates security and compliance, brings evidence into one place, and cuts audit prep by 82%. Less manual work, clearer visibility, faster deals. Zero chaos. Call it compliance or call it compliance. Get it? Join the 15 ,000 companies using Vanta to prove trust. Go to Vanta.com slash com.

8:15Welcome back to the Media Club. YouTube has signed a deal with SiriusXM. Now, that might seem a bit odd given that SiriusXM sales audio advertising. Karen, why have YouTube suddenly done this deal? Well, it's a fascinating deal and it makes loads of sense, actually. SiriusXM is a huge radio network and they're now going to be the exclusive kind of broker for YouTube's audio-specific advertising. And a lot of people don't realize that YouTube is absolutely massive for listeners who listen for audio only, even if they're consuming video content, video podcasts. There was some great research that just came out that really dug into these kind of podcast first, these audio first listeners.

9:04And what they identified surprisingly is that even amongst the group of people who are listening purely on audio, 90 % of those are using YouTube. So they're just turning their screens away or looking away from it. consuming that content as audio, which I think is a real change from people's expectation and shows why SiriusXM is exactly the right partner for YouTube. YouTube, let's be honest, not a channel that necessarily has an understanding of the radio format. SiriusXM actually absolutely does. So it makes a lot of sense. Yeah, it's interesting. You can obviously have YouTube music app. So that's sort of more audio type experience.

9:43I was reading about you can obviously send YouTube to a smart speaker in your home, which again, audio type experience. We haven't talked about YouTube, David, and we talk about there's a lot of TV consumption on main television. Absolutely. And now there's a lot of audio consumption on TV screens. Are they just here to own all attention? YouTube. I mean, yeah, there's an argument that YouTube and Netflix have won. the battle is over although um it's never that simple is it um they they have a desire to connect with their audience in a million different ways and i think that you know a few years ago not many people would have thought that youtube would end up as a main tv choice but as as you probably know in um in all tv homes 10 of viewing is on any given day is is youtube viewing on the main television this isn't viewing um on your phone so they are they are a big player and it's no surprise that they want to try and be as dominant in audio as they are in video and it's sort of it's one of those when i when i first heard that stat about um 70 percent of uh pod listeners or or that in certain demographics 70 percent of pod listeners who are listening on youtube aren't watching it at first you think how can that be true but then you realize that of course the phone is still the dominant delivery system for podcasts and a lot of the time when you're listening to podcasts you're running or you're on the tube or wherever you might be other transport systems are available and uh and so presumably at that point like me most people even if they're listening on youtube aren't watching their phone they're just listening to podcasts or even just other tabs like it running in another tab on your desktop do you have a thing with the tv programming that you're making that you haven't got everyone's full attention maybe that you used to have, maybe someone's watching it they're on their phones, in the lounge does it change how you make a show or think about stuff?

11:44It's a really good question, I mean there's research that shows that people who watch on a big screen even if they're watching YouTube on a big screen are much more likely to get to the end of a program than if they watch on a mobile device but I think I think if you overthink how you're going to keep people hooked then that way is you know that's a road to destroying creativity really you know there's the classic thing if anyone who's ever made a show from a commercial broadcast so you're always thinking about okay how do we bring them back after the break and so that's part of the discipline but I think I think the point at which particularly if you're making long form if you're making long form to be overly worried about people's attention spans well you probably shouldn't be making long form at that point YouTube have really sold to brands that they should use YouTube and advertise on YouTube.

12:31Do you think this kind of mixes the message slightly that it's not that actually maybe it's not about video, it's about other things? No, I think you have to understand that there are different usage behaviors, right? If the podcast consumer, like the ones I was just talking about, who are audio first consumers of YouTube, they're having a different experience than, you know, for example, David's TV viewers who are there to lean in. And I think YouTube is big enough and powerful enough that it can serve both different audiences with different advertising needs. And in fact, what works for audio advertising on YouTube is quite different than what works for somebody who's watching purely for video content.

13:08They tend to be really, really sensitive to how relevant audio audiences tend to be really, really sensitive to how relevant the message is. So it really, really matters. They like, for example, having the voice be the voice of the host or at least the message being very closely aligned with what's being talked about. That's not quite as much of an issue for video watchers. And people are watching video for different things. Even audio explorers are often watching video first to get a sense of whether this podcast is for them. Then they'll turn the screen away and watch. So I think it's just worth having that in mind if you're a brand looking to partner with a podcast is think about what's the mode of operation that people are leaning into rather than just assuming all formats are the same.

13:50Yeah, this is all research from Sounds Profitable. I mean, they also talk about these sort of audio first listeners. They're loyal, often most commercially valuable because they're really into the content, but not big fans of AI generated voices. Well, that's good news for us, isn't it? Good news for humans. Good news for humans on podcasts. People like people. I mean, there's some people I don't like. It's quite a long list, actually, now I think about it. But no, people do like people. The other effect that, of course, YouTube has had with this kind of content for traditional TV is there's a whole load of content that used to be at the heart of traditional TV, certainly pre-watched traditional TV that just doesn't exist anymore.

14:30So, you know, what we're called in the business, chop and make shows, chop and cook shows, where a chef would show you how to make something there's a reason you don't see those shows on pre-watched tv anymore because no one needs to come to television for that content if you if you're thinking what am i going to cook tonight you're not going to go on the iplayer and look at an old rick's nine show you're going to go to your favorite um you know youtube chef your youtube cooking star also those shows get now chopped up and and re-serve themselves on their YouTube channels. Okay, next up, and Channel 4 is in the middle of a significant moment.

15:07New CEO Priya Dogra is just 50 days into the job. Last week, Chief Content Officer Ian Katz confirmed he'll leave in October. And now she's launched a full review of the broadcaster's strategy, size, and structure. Karen, from like a communications perspective, is this sort of standard CEO behavior, new one comes in? We're going to have a look at everything. Is that good for a new CEO? Oh, my goodness. It is so, so typical. The first thing a new CEO will do is come in and look at their staffing, look at their agencies they're working with, look at their partnerships. Partly because, you know, it's an opportunity for the business to reset.

15:48And that's something that, you know, you should never let such an opportunity go to waste. That's the business reason. The more personal reason is often purely from an ego point of view. They might have their stamp that they want to make, and they know that if they move quickly, they can make a bigger mark. And the third thing is that they might have kind of people that they've worked with in the past or kind of ideas that they want to bring in that, you know, they need to create opportunities for. It was also just like purely useful to get to know your organization sometimes to run these kinds of processes.

16:19So it's not surprising. It's very standard behavior. and I think for Channel 4 again probably a good opportunity for them to look afresh at some of their programming which has been perhaps a little bit, you know, I don't want to say they produce some fantastic work but I think there is room for them to be a little bit more cutting edge as they have been in the past David, I mean Channel 4 had been through a bit of the mill it had the issues with Conservative government is it going to be sold off, it was sort of saved Covid issues that pays a lot of trouble. Alex Marne left, Ian Katz now is gone.

16:55I mean, they've got a refresh moment. They're probably going to introduce production themselves. It's easy for the production community to sort of feel a bit jaded about another Channel 4 pause and review. I wouldn't say I was jaded. I think the reality is this is an existential moment for Channel 4. Arguably, it's an existential moment for all the UK PSBs. are there going to be five UK PSBs operating separately from each other in three, four years time? Probably not. How does Channel 4 fit into that? On one level, Channel 4's challenge is no more complicated than, for heaven's sake, commission some hits.

17:38Oh, it's easy. It's certainly not easy. You could argue that that's been proved recently. But Channel 4 seems to have spent a lot of time thinking about what its identity is. And a lot of that conversation was around Channel 4 reflecting what it was 40 years ago. It's pretty much impossible for a 44-year-old brand to be the challenger brand, to be young, to be hip. I mean, that's not possible. In a world where it's average years, 60 years of age, that's a fool's errand. but trying to be impactful by commissioning some hit shows that feel like they have particular relevance for a UK audience, that feels like the future of the channel.

18:22I think that there was a lot of, and it was great that there was a big campaign, and frankly I was part of it to stop Channel 4 from being privatised, but actually what that meant was there wasn't really a sufficient debate or sufficient conversation around what did need to change. And Channel 4's line was basically, nothing to see here, it's fine, we definitely don't need to be privatized everything's great well turns out everything's not great um and in terms of its relationship with independent producers it's very different to what its relationship was traditionally you know it's relying on um group m find funding for a lot of its biggest shows which means that rather than the traditional channel 4 model of come to us and you will own your ip it's now come to us and you'll own 50 percent of your ip now i'm not saying they should dump that relationship but they just need to be honest with themselves about what they can be in the new world order.

19:14Karen, how does a 44-year-old brand reboot itself in today's world? Well, I think there are lots of opportunities for older brands to reboot themselves. You know, brands reinvent themselves all the time. I think the point is they need to find the right link between their heritage and their future. Something we talk a lot about to clients is you have to be grounded in your heritage. That's what gives you the credibility. but then you need to figure out what from your heritage you're taking forward that gives you the right credibility to be the voice for this next phase. So it's a process we go through with corporate clients all the time.

19:52And, you know, it often fails. But when it fails, it's usually more because the brand can't get over the things it needs to leave behind. And, you know, sometimes for structural reasons, they're just not set up to operate in a different way. sometimes because of you know reasons of pride or ego of just the sense of well but this is who we are this is we've been but you do have to make choices as a business which means that for everything you you step forward into you have to leave something else behind and i think that's presumably going to be an important part of of this consultation exercise well definitely don't leave goggle box behind as they as they move forward no there'll be there'll be plenty more Gogglebox.

20:32I think partly what they need to do, and I'm sure Priya will do this, is be really honest with the supplier base about what Channel 4 has the ambition to be going forward. I think the financial challenges it faced were made all the more challenging for the production community because there wasn't really sufficient honesty about what the new Channel 4 could or couldn't afford and that i think for too long the production some in the production community sort of took the message that um all we need to do is wait long wait around for long enough and magically it will go back to being 2016 it's not going to come back to being 2016 the position of the psbs in terms of their prominence in terms of their available resource to spend on new commissions and in terms of their impact with an audience is changed forever that doesn't doesn't have to be existential but if you're not honest with yourself and by extension with your supplier base and frankly with your audience about who you are in this new world then it could become existential we'll just finally um ash atala stood up for ian katz's legacy uh this week what did you make of um ian's time in charge i think ian brought a very different feel to the the role of a chief creative officer to a creative leader um i think there are there are some really good shows that you can point to um i think it's really really difficult to run a traditional linear network and that it became more difficult over time and you end up in this situation where if the reason the hits to explain the absolutely obvious but sometimes it doesn't seem obvious when people were talking about channel four is if you don't have hits people won't come to your channel if people don't come to your channel then your ad revenue is going to go down and that's going to mean that you've got less money to commission new shows and you're in this you know worse kind of death spiral and it feels like there's an opportunity now to be very honest about what the opportunities are that channel four has as a as a broadcaster as a as a substantial digital player but also what the challenges are and i mean in person was really very supportive of a lot of the stuff that we did.

22:47Two Cities, the guys behind Blue Lights, one of our production companies, they've got a big new drama coming to Channel 4. We did Game of War for Ian. He was incredibly supportive about that, to the extent he was wearing kind of ridiculous knitted outfits in various press photographs to help push the show. So Ian's a lovely man. That doesn't change the fact that Channel 4 faces some really significant challenges going forward. I mean, Karen, the deadline we're talking this week about who's likely to replace Ian. I got David Brindley from 2.4, Alisa Pomeroy, internal candidates like Alicia and Louisa Compton.

23:28Talk about Ben Frow from Channel 5. Do you think we'll see a sort of TV to TV move or there's opportunity to think more differently about who their creative lead is? Well, I mean, I wish I knew from the inside out what's going to happen. I do think it's interesting to know that there has never been someone in this role who came directly from Channel 4. So, you know, you'd have to assume law of averages, especially if a new CEO is looking for, you know, that fresh voice, that they might continue to pick someone from outside the organization. But they've got some great names to choose from. I was, you know, I wouldn't be able to judge between these different people.

24:08But the only name on that list down at the bottom of the list that I know personally is Phil Edgar Jones, who I worked with a little bit when we did some work for Sky. And he is delightful. So who do you think, David, anybody put your money on? I mean, it's the absolute poison chalice being given by me giving them my backing publicly. but I think we might end up in a situation that we had at the BBC where no one was talking about Matt Britton for a long time and then suddenly late in the day it became clear that he landed the job. My bet would be they will go for a very big hire and the list of names we've talked about, they're all very talented with the possible exception of Ben, they're not big hires.

24:52I mean, I can't see Ben leaving five because five is his baby and he's just done such a magnificent job there. I'm not sure he'd want to go to four I might be wrong um but I think I think they should go for a big name and they should think about they should be left field the moment I mention these names that they probably then become unpickable but you look at someone like Rob Wade who's a Brit who's been in LA for a long time running Fox somebody like him would bring a completely different flavor to what Channel 4 could be I think Stuart Murphy is interested in being back in television I mean, I don't say that knowing Stuart that well, but you hear that he's interested in being back in TV.

25:35Again, a very big name who I'm sure would have a kind of a bold plan. So I think it's going to have to be someone big, ambitious. If they could get Charlotte Moore to do it, Charlotte would be great. I don't think Charlotte would do it. I think Charlotte would probably have seen herself as being at the pre-level and has obviously got an exciting job at Left Bank. But they should take a big swing, is what I would... I'm sure they're not looking for my advice, but if they were, I'd say go big. Well, we'll see who they pick. But if you've got a great idea, why not tell it to us? You can leave a comment if you're listening on Spotify or YouTube or maybe drop us a note at themediaclub.com.

26:16Stick around. More chats after this.

26:24Hello Media Club listeners, Patrick here from Podcast Discovery, the podcast marketing company, where this week we've been thinking about hosting. Apple Podcasts just announced several more hosting partners that will be able to post video podcasts to the platform. But Spotify still has their own different list of posts that will get your video podcast on their platform. So where's the best place to be? We have thoughts. Get in touch at podcastdiscovery.com. That's podcastdiscovery.com. If this week's news tells us anything, it's that everything in this industry is up for grabs. While almost everything, the one thing that doesn't change is the fantastic service here at Podshop Studios, where we record every week.

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27:51heat quiche Lorraine, deviled eggs, and fresh cut fruits to go. Celebrate mom with Whole Foods Market. Security program on spreadsheets, new regulations piling up, and audit dread? It's time for Vanta. Vanta automates security and compliance, brings evidence into one place, and cuts audit prep by 82%. Less manual work, clearer visibility, faster deals. Zero chaos. Call it compliance or call it Calm clients. Get it? Join the 15 ,000 companies using Vanta to prove trust. Go to Vanta.com.

28:30Welcome back. Here's a few stories that we've been talking about in the club this week. Sky News is making a move into subscription content with plans to launch a paywall defense and security app. Premium news for paying subscribers, a first for the news channel. And the standards website is transferred to the independent with about 30 staff leaving as part of the transition. The two titles now operating under the same roof. And is this the world's most expensive joke? Having failed to buy it outright, The Onion has announced plans to lease Infowars from Alex Jones, meaning the brand made famous for conspiracy theories is finally set to be managed by America's most prominent satirists.

29:09That is, if the judge agrees. Links to all those stories are available on our sub stack. Sign up for free at themediaclub.com. That's themediaclub.com. Karen and David are still with me. David, let's give you some space. So SCV Studios in 2026, tell us about the business. Yeah, no, absolutely. So I joined seven years ago. And for starters, I have to be perfectly clear that the transformation has very little to do with me. It's about the brilliant team of people that we've been able to bring in and the relationships we built, commercial relationships, creative relationships, finding a way of getting the best in the business to come and work for us and i think you know going back to the the channel four conversation part of the part of the advantage we had i guess is we were a challenger brand that we had we hadn't really made much television for a long time and had only really made television for the psbs so in seven years we've gone from being i'm going to sound like a suit now but i've started so i'll finish in seven years we've gone from being a two million pound business to a 90 million pound business and what that means in human terms is we're making a lot more shows and we're making shows for buyers that you one would never have imagined that stv studios would have a relationship with and in the end that comes down to nothing more sophisticated than taking some bets on bringing in brilliant creative talent and what we used to be was a kind of moribund in-house operation um and now what we are is a group of 20 different production companies, a mix of scripted and unscripted companies, all of the labels having a slight different flavor in terms of the creatives who are leading them.

30:46But what they have in common is that they're really good. And actually, my job has never been any more sophisticated than just backing good people. You know, we're a PLC, which means that there is a financial imperative. But my job, I think, is basically to protect creatives from that financial imperative. and we've had a number of you know i used to be i was you know as a producer you were kind enough to say that at the top so people didn't just think i was a boring suit i mean i am a boring suit but i used to make tv shows and that and in my heart i still think that i am a producer and find any excuse to go and meddle um but but actually what that taught me the one thing that taught me and also having had my own independent production company um back in the day was that when you've got a backer all you need from that back is trust and belief and some of our best production companies and i won't name name names but some of the best most talented people working in production companies that are now incredibly successful successful as part of our group had nights of the dark soul where you know they couldn't even get a meeting let alone get a show away and those very same creative talents those very same production companies are now making award-winning shows and thankfully because we're a plc making some money for us as well and so as I say my job has been no more than pick the right people to work with and then back them to the hill.

32:05How do you sort of split that kind of leave them alone let them benefit from the group when do you get involved when do you when do you not get involved? That's a really good question I mean I think part of the conversation that I have when we're talking about bringing a new creative into the group or making an investment in an indie or a startup or saying to an indie look we think you'd be better housed with us is to talk to them about what they want there are lots of different creators there are some creatives who want you to kind of hold them close and and offer support and and you know creative ideas and and own their financial plan for them and there are others who don't want that at all they just want the backing that you know they don't want to take money from a bank or from from private equity they want to they want money from a creative enterprise but they don't want to be told what to do and so part of the you know the skill if i have any skill at all is just in listening to what they want and and frankly you know a lot of the time when we're talking to we just recently did a deal with um kevin mckitt who's um best known as an actor and director um but has a production entity ferryman films they've got a brilliant slate they've got some great relationships with potential um buyers and and the moment where i think he believed that we'd be the right home was when i said look rather than do it listening to my pitch and you know i have to say i can do quite a good pitch but rather than just listening to pitch go and talk to some of the other production entities go and talk to some of the creatives already work for us and get a sense of what we can bring to the table and if that chimes with what you want then there may be with a right home for you i mean there's 24 labels so that's a difficult bunch of there's a lot of people to think about I mean some of those deals like any acquisitions some go better than others sometimes people stick around sometimes they don't stick around often production companies are very connected to an individual either they started it or they become the creative lead absolutely does it always work with the ebb and flow of the talent and when they stick around or when they move on what you're left with perhaps you just you've never got to take the relationship for granted i guess is what i'd say you've got to have a constant conversation about what are you bringing to the table and a part of what our starting point for those conversations in the day at the point at which we're a challenger brand and we had never made a stream a show and we had very little activity um it was important for us to say do you know what the one thing we can promise you is there's we're not going to present you with a one size fits all deal for your for your creative dreams or for your production company or whatever the entity is and where some of the other production groups were saying okay here's the money we'll give you but this is what you have to give us in return and often what you have to give in return is quite a lot so you're getting a million pounds say for your your production entity but then on day two that group saying oh we're going to charge you for you for the use of your of our desks and for our lawyers oh and you need a production manager to do that budget for you we're going to charge you for that you know i didn't believe we should be doing that but frankly because we're a challenger brand we we couldn't do that and so what that creative as a culture where it's just a very honest conversation all the way down the down the line about the value that these creatives are bringing to the table and what's interesting is you know every creative is different some are absolutely they wouldn't necessarily admit it but absolutely purely driven by money yeah and uh and that you know they want to you know they want to make money and there's nothing bad about that but it's sort of it's slightly surprising really in in what is a creative enterprise and there are others who want to make great work and if they get rewarded financially that's sort of a bonus and then most sort of sit somewhere in the middle and you've just got to work out what what's the best framework to help them bring their best work to the table and then the other thing hopefully the benefit of being part of a bigger group is that sometimes there's a really difficult discussion that you have to have with the network that's being arsey and difficult and greedy and sometimes it just falls to me to be the bad guy and say come on this isn't fair and you know actually sometimes I can say to the labels tell them that I'm not happy because that protects your position and you can just you know I can be the bad guy um that's it you're giving away all the secrets it's terrible isn't it it's terrible yeah actually Yeah, David, it's really fascinating.

36:34I'm loving listening to you talk so passionately about supporting and protecting creators and people who work in the creative industries, which is something that I think there's a real hunger for these days. I'm just very aware. I have a friend who works in video effects. He's recently been made redundant from her position because AI has taken over a lot of what her role was doing. how do you see the kind of shape and the the nature of the work the roles that you're hiring for changing um in light of what is frankly a a quite transformative and and for to many people quite concerning time in terms of how we we go about our work at the heart of it is we need to have an honest conversation with both existing freelancers because it is primarily a freelance industry you know we've got about 60 people who work for us permanently and we've got over 2 000 people a year who come in and work on our shows on you know different shows and some of them come back year after year some of them just come make one drama with us and and we'll never work with this again and when you've got that kind of free flow of people in and out the business you get a really good sense of how it is to be a freelancer and it's really tough at the moment and I think part of the responsibility that creative leaders have that business leaders have but to go back to the earlier conversation about you know networks definitely part of the responsibility that the leaders of networks have is to be honest about the fact this is now a changed market it's not it's very easy to think well it was there's an after effect of covid or actually there are macroeconomic conditions which make things challenging the harsh reality is that it is a it's a changed market and you know what do you see do you see because often freelancers do come back and work on shows there's a lot of connective tissue between leaders and producers and directors and who works on them but there's a lot of people who've had to leave the industry and when you actually go hey we're doing another series like oh why they're working television anymore no no sure that's got to be a challenge finding skilled people if they're abandoning shit no no it's it is it's absolutely a challenge you know i was um listening to last week's show and simon draper who's someone i've worked with louis and i worked with him back in the day then he was a lead director on a show we made for ITV called 71 Degrees North at Fever.

38:46He is one of the best and the brightest and also a very nice man. And yet, as he was really honest about last week, he found himself in a position where as a BAFTA award-winning director, he couldn't get arrested. And that tells you something about the industry. And to Karen's point, I think part of our responsibility as leaders is to be honest to new people coming into the business about how challenging and difficult it is and that there isn't what there isn't anymore is a defined career path where you know you begin as a runner you become a researcher you'll get to be an ap you work out whether you want to you know be a shooting director or whether you want to take a sort of more producer line and if you're good there's a career there you know there was always the the slight terror of having to run your own career as a freelancer but there was enough work to go around that isn't the case anymore and i think it's incumbent incumbent upon us as leaders to be honest with the existing freelancers about the reality of the situation but beyond that when talking to young people i mean frankly i'm kind of excited when a young person says they want to work in television i'm pretty excited when a young person even knows what television is but when you when when there is that enthusiasm part of my responsibility or any of our responsibility is to say okay it's really there are things that are fantastic about working in tv or in content production but there are some real challenges um and does that push us back a little bit on you know the kinds of people that get into television and what backgrounds they're from and where they are geographically if actually it gets harder and harder then it's the people who can sort of survive without working that really can stick around i think we did make a bit more progress in that direction and have we sort of stepped back a little bit from that no i think that's a real danger that you just end up with a load of posh shows or a load of children of posh shows who can afford to not be paid or can afford to be paid minimum wage and are frankly doing it as a you know as a passion or a hobby that then might turn into a career that that would be disastrous it'd be disastrous because it's morally repugnant but beyond that from a creative point of view it's it would be mad because you're just going to get one set of voices but you're absolutely right it's the first thing that ever happens in any kind of economic challenge is those programs get cut and all the things that corporations are previously enthusiastic about in terms of wanting to make sure that representations at the heart of what they do suddenly get forgotten we cannot forget that and i so it's about you know going back to karen's question i think it's about getting the balance right between still wanting to encourage new entrants into the business but being honest with them about the challenges they're in and in particular being honest to everyone about the fact that there's going to be less jobs I mean you just you just need to look around you pretty much every day there's another announcement of and and by the way not just traditional broadcasters it's in every sector isn't it Karen we're seeing this in in lots of companies making quite big decisions sure it's happening across the board and I think sadly it is the case that I think some companies might be overestimating how many jobs they can let go and some of those people might not be come back.

41:56But I'm curious, David, kind of if you did have a bright young person in front of you who's passionate to work in television and doesn't have those family networks and connections, how would you at this point be suggesting that they steer their careers? Is it about becoming more of a generalist, having that broader creative capabilities rather than developing niche attributes? Or what would be your advice to somebody kind of in terms of career prospects and longevity? I mean, I'd say primarily it's think about how you can train yourself, how you can, there are obviously there are barriers to entry, but actually one of the good things about the availability of technologies and platforms now is that you can play around.

42:37You know, anyone who's got a phone can play around with an editing app or can create content. And so I think that's really, really important. You know, the single most important thing of all, which sounds obvious, but actually remarkably isn't obvious is just watch everything you know that i i still try and when people just contact me out the blue and say i want to you know i want to know how to get in i didn't know anyone television i didn't know how to get in you know and i had a kind of series of happy coincidences and clerical errors that got me in um and so you know but when you sometimes you sit down with people and you go what you're watching and there's a slight blankness that is that actually as a kind of entry-level person, as someone who wants to get into telly or wants to really get into any content business, just consuming as much as you can and having an opinion.

43:24You know, there's no wrong or right opinion. And there's nothing more impressive when you meet a young person who wants to get into TV or wants to get into content creation where they've got really strong opinions. And that's great because that's inherently at the heart of the creative process is watching stuff and deciding whether you like it or not. Yeah, so develop your taste. Develop your taste, indeed, yeah. I mean, mostly, obviously watch Blue Lights, Criminal Records. You know, maybe watch some of the old Weird Weekends if you want to go deep, deep in the archives. Talking about Criminal Records, that's back for Series 2 on Apple TV.

43:55Yeah. That's a nice home for a series. It's great. No, it is. And I think that Apple TV is a really interesting example of everything we've been talking about. The sort of phrase that my teams get completely bored witness of me parroting back at them is that it feels like the best of times and the worst of times. it is you know it's there is massive opportunity out there for the big bold kind of game-changing dramas or unscripted shows there's very limited if no opportunity for the stuff that used to sit in the middle which is why there's a big freelancer crisis in terms of the amount of jobs available but if you get a drama away on apple then it's a it's an amazing situation to be in the team is very supportive there joe barton's a brilliant commissioner jay when once she loves a show will own it and will be passionate about it and will put a huge support behind it and that's when you realize the nature of the the challenge going back to the channel 4 conversation that the terrestrials have is that you see the prominence that criminal record has had on the apple platform that the mass the massive sort of 360 marketing and comms plan they have for the launch of this thing it feels like a global event and obviously you've got to earn the right to win one of those global events but when you do it's incredibly exciting um and yeah we're really we're lucky to have apples backing but we're mostly lucky to have some brilliant people um making the show and and you know and working on the show so we talked about the mob earlier it's going to be on hulu when's when's that tx not allowed to say but it's kind of uh suffice to say and we will get it on um disney plus over here it will be yeah it'll be available on disney plus over here it's um as with all content these days you know it's international immediately i mean you know that again feels we just sort of take that for granted now that everything's available to everyone all the time but uh yeah so you know look out for uh the mob later in the year and if you're a parky posy fan in particular you're gonna you're gonna love it uh before we do the quiz uh some quickfire questions uh will sky buy the itv broadcast channels i uh yes i think they will will the BBC get a good charter settlement wow define good define good yes yes will SNL UK return from the series it has to they've spent so much money it has to it's got to keep going and it'll be I tell you what if Sky do buy ITV the ITV channels then I'm pretty sure part of the plan will be to have a narrative repeat on Sunday night on ITV1 and at that point it feels like a really exciting moment actually.

46:32Well, that's a good prediction. We'll see if that one comes true. Right, just enough time for the Audio Network Media Quiz.

46:42Three media stories hidden within an existing media property. This week it's Name Drop. I'm going to feed you a series of names. You work out what story connects them. And for some added tension, we asked Ben at Audio Network to pick out some music in the style of the 1 % Club for that right mix of tension. So you can buzz in with your names when you know the answer. So Karen, you'll say... Karen. And David, you will say... David. Let's play Name Drop. Right. Name number one. And Shula Kapoor. Karen. Oh. Wow. That's a quick buzz in. I mean, that's terrifying. I'm taking a punt, but I think this one is about that BBC just acquired Indian Traders?

47:32That is correct. She was one of the contestants. I was going to read off some others as well. Traders India made for Amazon Prime Video and acquired this week by iPlayer, which is interesting. Karen, would you try and catch some of the Indian Traders? I mean, a shameful confession after David was just so passionate about watching things. I have never watched actual traitors. Oh, my word. This is your route in. I think I'm the last person. Are you an alien? Are you a real human being? That's extraordinary. It's interesting getting the foreign versions. We did some of the Australian traitors. We watched a bit of the New Zealand traitors, which had such a low budget.

48:16It was like we're abandoning ship. Well, the Irish traitors have got a pretty low budget too. Yeah, I think it's quite a clever move. I mean, apart from anything else, obviously the Indian diaspora in the UK, you'd imagine there's a kind of big built-in audience for that. Yeah, it's quite clever. I imagine they've paid pennies for it or rupees maybe. BBC have signed up the whole Traders franchise until 2030. That's a decent amount of time. No, it is, yeah. I mean, they obviously didn't want Bake Off happening all over again. but it just feels like the BBC feels like the natural home for that show and it's kind of not saying Bake Off hasn't worked for Channel 4 but I would imagine Bake Off would be a bigger show than it is now if it had remained on the BBC so I'm sure that was part of Studio Lambert's thinking is that the BBC is the natural home but it's good and to go back to your quickfire question about charter renewal part of the importance of giving the BBC a long term future rather than having to beg for its existence every 10 years is frankly deals like that it's difficult for them to bid for sports rights to bid for long-term relationships with indies if every 10 years they're having to start all over again work you know kind of singing for their supper i wonder if there's an opt-out in the contract just in case there is there is no um renewal uh okay um can i say by the way i was going to warn everyone that i'm incredibly competitive and apologize in advance to count for that, but I didn't need to because...

49:48Well, we'll see how you do with this one. It's a terrifying question. I am also quite competitive. I've noticed. Right, let's do question number two. Okay, name number one, Asha Taller. Name number two, Dexter Fletcher. Name number three, Gary Lineker. David. Yes, David. Is it... I mean, I'm desperate basically just to have a go now. Is it Richard Bacon's new podcast? Yes, they're all guests on Richard Bacon's new video podcast, Why Are You More Successful Than Me, which I think is launching today. Lineker's first up, followed by Dexter Fletcher. I think Elizabeth Day's in there as well. It's made through his production company, Yes, Yes Media.

50:30Karen, there's been quite a lot of talk about sort of death of the chat show. Claudia kind of has come back and done one. Have all chat shows just moved to podcasts? Quite a lot of them have moved to podcasts, but I don't think that means that the chat show itself is dead. it might just change, right? I think it is a format that has always existed as long as television has. So I would be surprised if it ever ceased to exist. I think it's a little bit typically more of a successful format in America than it is often here, where they tend to mix it up with different style formats. But then you get someone like Graham Norton coming along and completely reinventing it.

51:05So I think Richard Bacon has every chance. I mean, I actually quite like the format of interviewing people more successful than me because it creates that nice kind of instant sense of tension. So, you know, let's see how it goes. But I think it's an interesting approach and I see no reason why there couldn't be space for a chat show of that form. I mean, Richard Bacon, great talent. There's a lot more behind the scenes than maybe people realise is quite a format-focused person. Interesting to see him jumping in front of the mic again. Yeah, no, absolutely. And he'll have a very deep black book of contacts.

51:42But I mean, thank God that someone's finally launched a podcast where famous people talk to each other. I mean, I just don't. There's not enough of that, is there? It's good that that's going to happen. But no, Rich is very talented and it'll be fun, I'm sure. OK, here comes number three. The Judicial Appointments Commission. Karen. Oh, my God. So I think this is about it's quite a complicated story, but I believe this is about the journalist Barney Chowdhury has been fined or charged£14 ,000 for his Freedom of Information Act requests that he levied against the Judicial Selection Committee, which the National Union of Journalists is very concerned about, as am I, because it does feel like silencing someone attempting to do top quality journalism.

52:34them yes um just as you said really uh barney chowdhury 14k bill by the judicial appointments commission uh spent years um pursuing freedom of information requests to investigate judicial secrecy uh for the eastern eye um uh the jack's their costs isn't it they're basically going after their costs yeah i mean the jack says he acted unreasonably he says it's a slap so a strategic lawsuit against public participation designed to silence him nuj is warning of a kind chilling effect on journalism um it's difficult when the judiciary is the sort is the target and they're the ones that have seemingly fought back yeah i mean yeah i don't think it's i think it's literally the organized judiciary that have decided to find him as it were i think it's the it's that body claiming their costs in a new court case that having been said i think taking journalists to court is a very bad look i just a very it's a very bad look for anyone but for people in the legal profession to be somehow claiming that they've been the victim of a journalist because of their successful endeavours to uncover something which seems to have been provably bad.

53:48Very, very bad look. Do not take journalists to court. Well, I think that makes Karen our winner. It does. David, you have to work harder next time. Sorry, David. I think there probably won't be a next time after that performance. As a special prize. This will go to judicial review. We'll see what the costs are. Karen, you can see whether you have to pay them. My thanks to Karen and David and also to Ben Audio Network for supplying today's music. Remember, Audio Network can do that for you as well. There's a link to them in the show notes or you can remember audionetwork.com Just visit audionetwork.com So, Karen, what's been keeping you busy?

54:25Where can people keep in touch with you? Yeah, just mostly busy with flogging my various different strategic advice services on behalf of Edelman. I've got three pitches in these three weeks, so it's been manic, but you can always find me on my Blue Sky account, which is at KarenJR, that's K-A-R-I-N-J-R. And also if you're interested in my sideline in writing fantastical novels about politics and modern society, you can find me on my sub stack at Fantasy and Politics. Lovely. And David, how can people keep up with you? Have you got a social network of choice? I do have a social network of choice, but I'm not going to encourage people to follow me because it's mostly just me moaning about how Arsenal are in a state of perennial collapse, which no one needs another one of those people in their lives.

55:16There's enough content for that. Yeah, there's definitely enough content for that. I'd say, I mean, mostly I spend my time going up to random people in the street and saying, I used to make television. Have you heard of Louis Theroux? Have you heard of Dragon's Den? And that's the sort of sad human being I am. So, yeah, seek out one of those classic shows from my past. Thank you for listening and watching as well. My name is Matt Deegan. The producer is Matt Hill. It was a Rethink Audio production with video support from Podcast Discovery. I'll see you next week.

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56:25So retrospectors, what historical events are we ticking off on this week's run of Today in History? On Monday, the anniversary of the day boring old grass got an upgrade, AstroTurf. On Tuesday, when World War One flying ace the Red Baron was finally shot out of the sky. On Wednesday, how the Hitler diary hoax fooled the British media. On Thursday, why Bavarian beer can only be made with three ingredients. And on Friday, grab your leg warmers for the sensational Jane Fonda workout. That's Today in History with The Retrospectives. 10 minutes each weekday, wherever you get your podcasts.