424: How to Manage Up, Down, and Across with Kristen Harcourt

0:00Kristen Harcourt: No matter what your job title is, success at work isn't just about doing your own job well. It's about working effectively with all the people around you. That means knowing how to support your team, influence your peers, and build a productive relationship with your own boss. I usually focus on leading the people who report to you, but the best managers know that leadership extends in every direction. So today's guest is talking about the art of managing up, down, and across. why each relationship matters, the common mistakes people make, and practical strategies you can use to build trust, increase your influence, and get better results throughout your organization.

0:38Kristen Harcourt: Joining me today is Kristen Harcourt. For almost 20 years, Kristen has been a trusted partner to executives and emerging leaders across hundreds of organizations around the globe, helping them unlock extraordinary sustainable results through the power of self-awareness, emotional intelligence, and conscious leadership. A sought after speaker and facilitator, Kristen is also a professionally accredited coach who empowers leaders to uncover their strengths, challenge their blind spots, and lead with purpose and impact. You might also recognize her as the voice behind the Inspirational Leadership Podcast, where I was recently a guest and where she hosts powerful conversations that spark growth and transformation.

1:17Kristen Harcourt: While you're here, follow the show so you never miss an episode. And if you're feeling some love, leave a rating or review so other managers know that this show is worth a listen. Now here's my conversation with Kristen.

1:32Kristen Harcourt: Thank you so much for joining me today, Kristen. I am so excited to talk to you about managing across and managing up because it's not something I usually talk about on the show. We usually talk about managing your direct reports, but this one is a little different. So thank you so much for joining me. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really, really super excited and pumped for this conversation. Me too. I should also mention that I was recently a guest on your show. And so anyone who's listening should definitely check out your podcast at the end and go find my episode, as well as the many other amazing guests that you've had.

2:01Kristen Harcourt: So need to put that little plug in there. Thank you. All right. Let's talk about what kind of what is managing up, what is managing across and what is managing down. Let's just get clear about what we're talking about when we refer to those three different types of managing people? Yeah, absolutely. So I'll start with managing down because I think once you're a manager in a leadership position, we tend to recognize that we're going to have direct reports and people that you're going to be managing on a daily basis and hopefully coaching and mentoring and spending time having one-on-ones and setting them up for success and hopefully delegating as well in order to be able to now have others that you're supporting in order to be able to achieve your business outcomes.

2:44And that is, I want to acknowledge that can be a very challenging role that you're having to work through as a manager every day. You've got all these different personalities that you're working with and you're constantly adapting and what might work really well with one person is completely the opposite of how you handle another person. So you're constantly flexing and adapting with your direct reports. What I don't think people spend as much time thinking about is you have some other stakeholders within your organization. that are going to help you be set up for success to achieve what you want to achieve.

3:16And that would be also when we start to think about managing across. And so you have a lot of different peers. I'm sure you've experienced this a lot where you start to think about different teams that can sometimes feel like they're operating in silos. And if you're going to be able to achieve what you need to achieve within your organization for a lot of these big goals, it's really important that you're building strong relationships, you're building trust, you're influencing with peers in different areas of the organization. And where you're already maybe feeling quite exhausted with all of the ways that you're directing and working with your direct reports on a daily basis, it's really, really important that time is spent to understand this audience, how you could be supporting them better, how you could be working together more effectively, understanding their challenges.

4:03So that's the managing across. And then managing up, You have bosses that you're reporting to and sometimes other levels up. So it could be your boss, but your boss's boss. And a lot of times, again, when we start to think about empathy and putting yourself in the shoes of other individuals, they have a lot of pressures and people that they're having to report into your boss and the boss's boss. And so the more you can be thinking about what are they trying to treat? What are they trying to achieve? What's in it for them? What are the things that are keeping them up at night? and being able to be more proactive and perhaps around how you're communicating things to them.

4:42But also another thing is, and depending on your personality style, sometimes you're kind of the work you're being going about doing things, but you're not necessarily managing up and letting others know what you're working on and having that visibility and making sure that they're aware of some of the challenges and roadblocks that you're coming across and different things that need to be prioritized. And when you think about managing up, when I talk about with your direct reports and managing down, a lot of times you want to be asking questions around, you know, how can I best manage you? How can I support you?

5:14What do you need more of from me? Sometimes your boss, your manager might not think to ask those questions of you. And when you're managing up, you can actually say to them, in order for me to be set up for success, this is what I need more of and less of from you. This is when things start to feel like overwhelmed and struggled that you can best support me. And then, of course, also letting your boss know what you're working on and where you might be having too many priorities and feeling like you're under-resourced. They can't always know that because they also have other things that they're working through.

5:50So the more that you can communicate what's happening in your world, the better they can help get you to where you need to get to.

5:57Kristen Harcourt: This is such a helpful, just ground laying. And I want to keep on this topic of managing up because I've talked to folks who get very nervous about this idea of telling their boss, I have too many priorities. Can you help me sort them? Or this is what I need from you. It feels risky to go to your boss sometimes. Are there ways that we can open those conversations? Or if we're still uncomfortable with the conversation, are there other strategies that we can take to do some of that managing up almost under the radar? Yeah, really, really great question. I think that sometimes people can feel like it's intimidating.

6:39They can feel like, I actually feel like my boss has so much on their plate. I don't want to be another person that's adding to things on their plate, which comes from such a good place. I sometimes say to people when they're feeling like that, take a step back and think about your direct reports. and would you want them to be thinking, well, I'm just not gonna tell my boss what's going on. I'm feeling completely overwhelmed. I don't know what to prioritize. And then would you want them to think, well, just figure out on yourself team. No, you would want them to come to you. So I think sometimes even helping to have a bit of that perspective shift, think about what you would want for your team.

7:18Wouldn't you want that same thing for yourself, right? So it starts to maybe take away a little bit of that pressure, just recognizing, you know, we're all working together here to achieve what we're trying to achieve. I think also acknowledging the more we're thinking about whoever we're reporting into, and sometimes we have several people we're reporting into, what's their personality style? What's the best way of approaching this when you're having a conversation? Is this something that you should have on your one-on-one? Is this something that you should have it more formalized set up? Or are they more a person that they kind of feel like you kind of show up at their office and let them know what's going on and do it more in real time.

7:56So just being conscious of your particular leader that you're reporting into, what's their personality style, noticing if they're coming into work and they're already feels like, you know, you're paying attention. I'm always talking about emotional intelligence and you're paying attention to their body language. You're paying attention to the kind of day that they're having. You might recognize this might not be the best moment to bring up this conversation. So trying to be as intentional as possible around being proactive, right? Do we want to schedule this in advance? Paying attention to what's going on with them and what they have in terms of bandwidth.

8:33I think also recognizing when you're going to have this kind of conversation, it's not so much only going to them and saying, hey, this is what's going on. Can you solve my problem? It's more, hey, this is what's been going on. again these are some of the solutions that I'm thinking as a good way to address this I'd love to talk this through with you see what you think do you think I'm on the right page or you know do we need to course correct do things a little bit differently I think that's really important I think if you're just going up to your boss just like I'm sure you're trying to be mentoring and coaching your team members that report to you in the same way come to them with solutions come to them with you know, this is where this is how I think would be a good way to approach this.

9:17Even when it comes to this is a conversation that shows up with a lot of my leaders where they're saying, I'm just so under resourced. I have so much on my plate right now. I can't handle this and I can't I can't bring another task in. They sometimes don't recognize and realize the extent of what's going on in your world right now and how many different things are on your plate and being able to just communicate to them in a very grounded way and just say, hey, this is what's currently going on in my world. And I love that this is something else that you want to bring front and center. And this is a project we need to really make sure gets prioritized.

9:57I'm just curious on your end, what do you want me to take away and deprioritize in order to make this a priority?

10:03Kristen Harcourt: It can feel I want to be, I want to acknowledge, it can feel a little bit intimidating the first time you do that. But the more you get and do that, the more it becomes easier and the more it starts to become a rhythm between you and your boss. First off, I love that you described it as basically be the kind of employee that you want your team members to be, right? Like if we can all remember that what we want from our team members is most likely what our boss wants from us in terms of how we show up and how we behave, that just kind of takes some of that pressure off, as you said, and also gives us very clear guidance for what we should be doing because we mostly know what we want our team members to be doing, right?

10:41Kristen Harcourt: Coming with solutions, asking questions when they're confused, asking for support in certain ways. We can use that as guidance to help us know how we can show up to our boss in a more professional, proactive way. So I love that. And then the second piece on prioritizing, I had a client who decided that they were going to have a spreadsheet and they were going to put a red line at row number six. And so they could have anything they wanted above the line. Those were active projects. And anything, other ideas or things that came up, it either had to take one of those slots, which meant something moved down, or it got added to the for later list.

11:18Kristen Harcourt: And that was their way of containing how many things they had going on at once. And once a project was finished, it got taken off the spreadsheet, opened up a new line. And that was a great tool for them to be able to contain how much work they had going on while not losing track of all the other ideas or all the projects that they had paused. And I just thought that was such a brilliant approach. So totally with you. I love that. And I think that's a great thing that they might be able to model that to other people on their team or their boss might say, hey, here's something that's working better for what's working really well for someone on the team, maybe something you can experiment and play with.

11:55Because the other thing I was thinking about that, and we didn't really speak to this piece, but around the work-life integration, my experience is a lot of times that pressure that people are putting on themselves, their boss doesn't have that same expectation for them. They want them to take vacation. They want them to take space out of the office. And they feel like I can't say no. I need to keep on saying yes to this. So I always try to approach it from both perspectives. Like, what do we want to be aware of in terms of the organization and the culture and the pace that they're creating. But what also is that?

12:31And of course, the leader that person's reporting into. But what also is, where do you have agency? And where's your opportunity and responsibility here as an individual in order to be able to let them know, you know, I would love to take vacation this summer, but I'm just really feeling like with all the projects that are happening right now, I can't do that. 99.9 % of the time, your boss is going to say, no, I want you to take vacation. please do not do that. But my experience with so many of the leaders that I work with and through coaching, I help them to have that conversation around the work-life integration and whether that's taking vacation or whether that's feeling like they have too much on their plate and they don't want to take anything off.

13:14It's some of it a bit self-created, right? They're not saying no and having those boundaries, but the expectation isn't there from their boss. It's actually quite the opposite. They realize how important it is to have that rest and to be able to have that recovery in order to show up as your best self at work. But you need to help yourself in order to be able to have those dialogues to be able to create that environment in that situation where you are having that work-life integration. Because I don't know if you've experienced this, but what I've experienced is so many leaders that are either at burnout or bordering at burnout or they're in burnout because of that lack of boundaries.

13:55Kristen Harcourt: Completely. And it's so true. It's always a no if you don't ask. So if you can figure out how to ask in a way that doesn't, it's not a demand, right? It's a request. It's a, I understand that this could be complicated if I'm gone or if I miss Friday afternoon to go to my kid's school and I'm going to miss that meeting, right? They'll work on it with you, but they want you to have a full life because the last thing they want is for you to leave because you're burned out or you're unhappy. So we're all on the same page here. All right. I want to shift a little bit and talk about managing across because it's totally different to work through influence when you don't have any kind of direct reporting lines, right?

14:37Kristen Harcourt: If you're managing up, it's directly to your boss who's got a lot of power control over where your career goes. And if you're managing down, same thing. But if you're managing across, it feels super different. Can you talk a little bit more about what that looks like in terms of the kinds of things we might want to focus on if we are really truly trying to manage our peers in that way? Yeah, yeah. I think this one is a great opportunity because I think when, again, going back to intentionality and you think about how you could do this war effectively, it could have a huge ROI, really, really big impact.

15:16So the first thing I think is really important is tapping into curiosity and asking more questions and understanding your peers' worlds. My experience, and when I have coached leaders on this and they have showed up with curiosity and asked more questions, they realized that they were making a lot of assumptions. So where they thought, what they thought was most important for that particular team was not actually what was most important to that team or where they thought the team would have been having the biggest struggles were not the biggest struggles. So spending more time asking questions, understanding your peers' worlds, where they want to get to, where they might see barriers to getting where they need to get to, how you could better support them to get to those places, how you might be able to leverage your network, your community, your team to help make their jobs easier and get to where they want to get to.

16:16And I think part of this is just a mindset shift because you and I get it, you know, as your team and what you have going on, it feels like there's a lot going on. So it's like, oh, now I have to spend more time understanding what's going on in their worlds and their agendas and what they're trying to achieve. But I sometimes describe it as a short term pain for a long term gain. And I don't even want to say pain, but spending some of that time where it can feel counterintuitive that you don't have the time. But I guarantee you, curving out a bit of this time proactively and doing it intentionally on a regular basis is saving you so much time in the long run.

16:55Because there's going to be less conflict, there's going to be this different level of trust. So when you are having times where, you know, there are going to be more high stakes moments, or there are going to be times where you're on a sprint and things are happening quickly and you need to be working really effectively with those other teams, with those other stakeholders, it's going to happen way more effectively because you've invested in those relationships. You understand what they're also experiencing. Because of course, we can get very me focused, right? Like, ah, I have all of these deliverables that I need to focus on.

17:28Guess what? They're over there and they have all of their deliverables that they need to focus on. Some even tighter deadlines that you're than you're even having to deal with, or you're not necessarily zooming out and understanding how what's happening on your team is now impacting this other team. So the zooming in and zooming out, I find can be super, super, super effective. And what ends up happening is the more that you invest in these relationships, you more understand and come from curiosity and ask questions and don't make assumptions, the more you actually get to be more effective at achieving what you ultimately want to achieve.

18:03But I really, really want to acknowledge it can feel counterintuitive when you're already working at such a fast pace to invest in these relationships. But I promise over 10 years of coaching leaders in this area, every single time I've seen where they have invested in this way, it has had huge, huge payoff.

18:23Kristen Harcourt: I'm wondering actually if you can tell us a story about one of your clients and kind of what shifted besides the time? Just kind of who was this person? Kind of what happened? Yeah. So here's what I find is very interesting. Even when there's times where you might see, you know, we hear a lot of organizations going through transformation, right? And change management strategies or big projects that they're working on. And I'm thinking of a team where they were working on a big project. And so operations was trying to get them, operations was the one working so much on the, on this big project.

18:53And of course, having to get a lot of people buying in for this new system that they're going to be using. And of course, when you're doing a new system, people are like, ah, here we go again. I like the old system. Why are we moving to a new system? Everyone always says it's going to be so much better. And then we get it and it's not better. And there's all these headaches. So they had this assumption that, okay, this is the reason why this team is kind of so upset or frustrated. But what it really came down to in this particular situation was, again, not asking enough questions and making assumptions.

19:28The team wasn't not bought in because, oh, here we go, another thing that we're moving forward with. They were feeling really frustrated because what has happened in the past is they bring in these new systems, and yet they don't speak to the stakeholders who are the ones who are going to be using said systems all day long, who have a much better understanding of how it's all going to come to play, you can imagine you have somebody in this particular one, it's from HR. HR is thinking, we're bringing in the system. Oh my gosh, it's all great. It's so wonderful. But they don't understand what the day-to-day actually looks like.

20:04And so over and over and over again, these new systems would come in and nobody really took the time to understand the people who are actually in the front line and ask them, what do you think? What do you think would be more effective? What do we need to be aware of around what wasn't working well before and what is working? And so because they had this, they did go and start to have some of these dialogues and have these conversations. What ended up happening is they actually made some course corrections around how they were going to work with the program and how they were going to implement it because now they had some really good data from the people who are the front lines that are using it all the time.

20:44And guess what? Adoption rates way higher because now there's much more buy-in because they were asked, they were part of the process, they're making suggestions. They feel engaged and bought into it because now they're like, oh, I'm actually going to have a system that is going to increase efficiencies and optimizing and making my life easier, right? So we can make assumptions around what's getting in the way. Sometimes we might think, oh, the reason why they're feeling so frustrated is around time constraints. But actually, it isn't about time constraints. Or they might feel like, oh, they're angry because it costs this much money and they don't have budgets for that thing.

21:23But really, they're actually feeling more frustrated because the last time they had a system come in like this, it was handled really, really, really, really poorly. So they're feeling quite scared and frustrated around how that can impact them again. So that and that particular situation was amazing. It had huge, huge payoff in terms of adoption rate. But I've seen even micro versions and smaller versions like this constantly with clients. And the theme that I see over and over again, is that they pause, they slow down, they stop making assumptions, and they ask more questions. And lo and behold, they find out what they thought was, you know, what they think is a problem, they went three layers down and then really got at the root of what the true problem was.

22:09Kristen Harcourt: It's so true. Over and over again, we learn if you want to go fast, you got to go slow. It's just, it's a fact of life, it feels like. And somehow we have to keep relearning this frustrating lesson. Yes. Oh my gosh, I love it because one of my sayings is slow down to speed up. Yes. Yes. We're so on the same page here. Okay. I want to talk about kind of a I don't know if it's still considered managing across or something different, but I've worked with cross-functional teams where the team leader is managing people who aren't their peers. They're from another department. They are a step or two lower than the senior leader who's running the program or running the project team.

22:53Kristen Harcourt: So there's this weird dotted line reporting thing that starts to happen because it's only temporary. It's just a particular project that they're running and they're kind of like your direct report for the sake of the project that you're running, but you're not having one-on-ones with them. You're not really kind of managing them in the same way as you are. Just thoughts on like, what is our responsibility to manage those team members who truly report to somebody else, but who are kind of under our care for a particular project or initiative? Yeah. Yeah. No, I think it's a great when you don't necessarily have that title and the power dynamics start to shift and the hierarchy and all of that kind of stuff.

23:32I think it does come back to some of the themes I talked before around, you know, what does it really look like to build trust and strong relationships? And I find what that looks like is trust and strong relationships come from the curiosity thing again and understanding what's going on in their world. But then there's this balance of making sure the way you're showing up is with empathy and care, but also assertiveness. And there are going to be times where you have to say something and be direct. And this is what that thing is going to look like. If the trust and relationship has already been created, and you put some time and energy in doing that, then when you do make that assertive, direct, but kind request, there's a different level of respect.

24:17However, I think what we need to spend a little time focusing on is when I say building a relationship, what does that look like? I don't mean work relationship. I mean, getting to know them human to human, because if you get to know them, and again, I hear this all the time. Oh, Kristen, I don't, I don't have time for small talk and like spending a little bit of time to ask them questions that guess what you actually feel really good and engaged because you're talking about something that you're also care about and you're passionate about. And we all have different things that we can connect about.

24:48Right. So I was actually doing some training a couple of weeks ago and I was talking with the people in the room about this and they're saying like oh well like if I'm someone who struggles a little bit like what do I talk to them about because I'm not really in about small talk I want to just get right into action and it's a muscle and it's practicing and the more you do it the easier it gets the better that you get at it but it doesn't have to be as complicated or convoluted as we might make it out to be like oh like what do I do with this human talk and building relationship right it's just even noticing like what's going on right now.

25:20So for me, the World Cup was just going on. I mean, I'm not a soccer player and I don't do soccer, but I'm so fascinated and interested, right? So I just say like, hey, have you been watching the World Cup? Are you following any teams? Even people who don't watch soccer at all, there's been such great dialogue, right? They'll say no, but did you know, did you hear how this thing happened? Or, oh, it was so funny around that kind of thing. So it's just noticing, you know, that's the way you can connect where right now we're in the summer, you could be saying things like, oh, like any plans on vacation.

25:51And, and then sometimes that morphs into, hey, I'm curious, like, if you were if you could go anywhere on vacation, like, or you could go on any trip, like what's one of the what are some of the things on your bucket list, right? Just finding those different ways to connect, because it's so interesting. When you get to when you ask people questions, and they get to talk about things that they're passionate about, and this I'm describing as any even people who would they would describe themselves as more introverted, as soon as you get them talking about their passions, they like they talk a lot.

26:20And when you start to spend a little bit more time doing that, and listen, when I say this, I'm not saying spending a half an hour, I'm talking five minutes with those different people that you're, you know, you're that team lead that you're having those people work with you that don't directly report to you. Because you start to strengthen that relationship, because you start to connect with them more human to human. There's just this other dynamic that starts to play that isn't about the hierarchy and your title and any of the status and any of that kind of stuff, they just respect you. They have connection with you.

26:51They have trust with you. And then when you are making the request and having to be a little bit more assertive around something that you're needing their support with, they just show up differently. And I know that anyone listening might feel like that sounds so simple. It's simple, but hard, right? Simple or hard because it's not necessarily hard because building relationship and talking with people, It's that people can feel like you're so rushed to the next thing. They're not intentionally creating the space to do this.

27:20Kristen Harcourt: It's such a beautiful way to say it's simple but hard. And when you have a cross-functional team especially, you might only have a few times a week or a month with some of these folks, unlike your team members who you're seeing constantly because you're always in meetings and you're having one-on-ones and you're checking in and all that stuff. So remembering that we need to be more proactive when we have new folks on our team, even if it's for a short time, even if it's only for a specific project, that we need to invest in that relationship because it totally is worth it in so many ways. Okay.

27:52Kristen Harcourt: I have one quick, quick, quick question, and then we have to wrap up. So if you're on this team and you have team members from other departments and they say, I have too many things on my plate to get to this, right? because they have their whole other job with their regular boss and their regular team. Can we go talk to their boss? Should we coach them how to talk to their boss? Should we just say, like, I get it. When can you get this to me? What do we do in those moments where there's tension between what we need from them and what their kind of regular job needs from them? That's a great question.

28:27And I think definitely not a one-size-fits-all, depending on the circumstances, depending on the personality of that individual. And the first thing that jumps out at me, if there is a level of comfort that you could have a conversation with that individual, I love where you went with the second one, right? How can you coach that person to help them go have a conversation? So you're almost helping them to manage up, right? So what a beautiful way that you could be supporting them. And yeah, I get that. And I've also had those kind of struggles. And here's how I handled that when this is happening, if this is maybe a little bit helpful for you.

29:02I had this kind of dialogue with my boss. Do you want to practice? Like if you're interested, I'm more than happy to give you an opportunity to role play with me, right? So if there is that level of comfort, I would start there. I think that's huge because you're getting an opportunity to be able to use your voice and to advocate and to be able to share what's going on. And that would even strengthen the relationship with those two people, right? Because now that person's getting an opportunity to support them and helping them to be more successful and do things more effectively. In terms of like a couple, like going in directly speaking with their boss, I'm going to be careful around how I would approach this one because I don't, I want to be, I don't think it's a one size fits all with this one either.

29:45I do think there are certain times where it makes sense, where that person might be advocating and depending on the level it may go and they already have a relationship with that person, be careful about how they approach it. But saying, you know, I just wanted to let you know some of the things I'm observing from a work-life integration. Like, I think there's a lot on this person's plate and I see some drowning happening. So in some cases, especially when I've seen leaders advocate for someone else from a burnout perspective, that person just got into the place, there's just like, they just don't have it in them.

30:20So coaching them on going and having a conversation with their boss, they just, they just don't have the cognitive or emotional or psychological bandwidth at this point. So I think in that case, it's not about you saying, yeah, this person's not strong enough. So I'm just going to go do it for them, right? Like, so I just want to be very conscious of the energy of where this is coming from. But the energy in this case is coming more from this person is just drowning and I'm going to be an advocate for them and I'm going to support them in trying to help get this situation under control.

30:52Kristen Harcourt: I'm so glad that you gave us that nuance that we should not jump to go talk to their boss and we should also not assume that it's not our place to ever step in. But there are moments when we can be an advocate and we can be supportive of somebody who really is struggling and that's a role that we should consider. So thank you for clarifying. Okay, but now we actually have to wrap up. So Kristen, can you tell us about a great boss you worked for and what made this person such a fabulous manager? Yes. I mean, my first three bosses were not so good. And then my next three bosses were amazing. So if I contrast in my career journey, but the person who really jumps out at me was my boss.

31:30His name is Ian Cameron. I'm happy to like shout out. I'll share this episode with him. And I worked with him when I was at a company called the McWaig Institute. two. And what I loved so much about Ian and how he showed up as a boss is I had a lot of autonomy, but we also got to, he was a managing director and I was in sales. And then I worked across with somebody in marketing and I got so much freedom to be able to really ideate and be creative and take these ideas and really run with them. And he really was like, yeah, you know what you're doing. Like I trust you. Um, and gave me a lot of space to be able to do that.

32:07He was someone, if I was having a challenge, I never felt there was a lot of psychological safety. I always felt that I could go to him and share any time that I was having struggles. And he was also somebody who would see things in me and reflect them back to me and help me hit my edges. So where I might want to stay a little bit in my comfort zone, he would always help me to be able to go up to these new levels and level up in a way that maybe I wouldn't have. I might have eventually got there. I'm pretty driven and ambitious, but I think he helped get me there faster. And I'll always remember when I decided I was going to go on my entrepreneurial journey, which is just about 10 years ago.

32:46And I had that itch. And I was having the conversation with him. And it'd be easy as a manager because, you know, you're leaving, you're losing a high performer and someone that's working really well with your organization. And he said, I see so much potential in you and you are so ready to fly. It's your time. Wow. That'll always stay with me, right? Like it was such a, you know, in that moment, because you're still feeling all the trepidation. You're going to leave corporate and go start your own company. And it just, I think that epitomizes who he was. Like it always felt like he wanted to bring out the best in his people.

33:19And I definitely experienced that with him.

33:21Kristen Harcourt: So, so beautiful and supportive. And where can people learn more about you? Tell us the name of your podcast where people can find it and all that jazz. Yeah, thank you. So you can find me, my website is kristenharcourt.com. And I'm pretty active on the socials, for sure, on LinkedIn, Instagram. So that's under Kristen Harcourt. And the podcast is called Inspirational Leadership. And I would love for you to check it out. Available in all major podcast platforms as well in video on YouTube. Fabulous. Well, thank you again so much, Kristen. So fun. I definitely learned some things. So I really appreciate you coming on today.

33:57Thank you for a wonderful conversation and for the work that you're doing in the world.

34:04Kristen Harcourt: Here's what I'm taking away from today's conversation with Kristen. One of the best investments you can make is building good relationships with people you work with regularly. That means getting to know them, their challenges, how they work, and how you can work more effectively with them. This is true for your direct reports, your boss, and your peers. All the links are in the show notes, and they can be delivered to your inbox along with my weekly episode guide with my key takeaways from the conversation. Simply subscribe to my newsletter at themodernmanager.com. Thanks again for listening.

34:33Kristen Harcourt: Until next time.