The new life cycle of a brand ‘cancellation’

0:09Hello and welcome to the Modern Retail Podcast, our show that covers the ways the retail industry is changing and modernizing. I'm senior reporter Gabi Barkho. In an era where brand reputation is tethered to the relentless cycles of social media, silence is no longer a defensive strategy for brands. In fact, often it can be a liability. In this episode, we're unpacking the intersection of corporate crisis management and online backlash. For example, this week Target had to quickly scramble to do damage control after one of its Halloween costumes was called out for its depiction of blackface. Neutrogena is also facing backlash in the wake of former Ambassador Hayden Panettiere's death.

0:56People are scrutinizing the brand's 2015 decision to sever ties with her for opening up about postpartum depression. It was in contrast with the lighthearted viral moment that happened just days prior, featuring current ambassador Tate McRae misusing the brand's makeup wipes. And so this week, we're looking at what canceling a brand actually means today, and why there is more pressure to address consumer criticism head on. Here with me today to break down why the old PR playbook of Wait and See is increasingly failing major brands is Sam Gauthier, a crisis PR consultant who's worked with a number of brands, including Shein, Limited To, and Tom's.

1:40Sam, welcome to the show. Hi, thank you so much for having me. All right, so we do have a lot to get into, but I feel like first and foremost, our question that we want to try to answer today is like, in 2026, how do you distinguish between a fleeting social media storm that's going to blow over within days and a genuine long-term brand damage that, you know, these companies have to actually jump onto and deal with? Sometimes it can be really hard to tell at first. And so as somebody who's worked with a lot of brands on crisis PR management? Like, yeah, where do you really start there? And we'll get into some of the examples I named in the intro and maybe dissect, you know, where they went wrong or where they went right, maybe.

2:35Yeah, absolutely. Honestly, I think the biggest mistakes a brand makes is just measuring the size of their social reaction instead of like the depth of their behavioral change. A story can be like everywhere for three days, almost have no commercial impact. And the question is like once people close Instagram X, like all these apps, are they actually changing what they're going to buy? Like where are they going to shop? Like what they recommend? I mean, honestly, I'd look at a few things like does the issue like contradict something central to the brand's identity? Like how easy is it for customers to switch?

3:16Is there like an actual organized boycott? Like we're meeting in Central Park and we'll, you know, we'll boycott this specific issue with a clear demand or is it just offense? Like, are we just like individually outraged? Like how does controversy reinforce an existing pattern? I mean, Neutrogena is like so interesting to me because the story challenges like the image of understanding and supporting women. But then again, on the flip side, the products are familiar. Like you can ask our, like our generation, our parents' generation, so on and so forth. And everyone would recognize the brand name because it's affordable, it's everywhere.

3:59So it really goes down to like social, like commercial recovery, like may happen faster, I believe, than emotional recovery. Like Target shows something similar, like people can remain disappointed in the company and still return because it's nearby. I mean, like I have like three different targets, like within a five minute vicinity from me, that's just convenient, you know, rather than like a CVS or a Walgreens or like all of these other companies that are an extra 10 minutes to get to. So the question is, like, am I, as a consumer, like offended enough to change my behavioral like shopping patterns?

4:42Quite frankly, no. Yeah. And it's it's not just us as consumers and maybe we're an anomaly because we are paying attention to this stuff. But I think of like the average person who's running into Target for an Are they thinking about the boycotts that started last year, for example, due to the rollbacks of their DEI initiatives? I think that was, to me, one of the biggest examples of the last year of a backlash actually coming offline. which is interesting because given their response, and we'll talk about it in a minute, to the Halloween costume this week that they took down pretty swiftly after being called out, it does seem like Target is one of those companies that maybe is just under a microscope or is just constantly watched and somehow they always end up in hot water, whether it's about their pride stance or merchandise or in this case, you know, racist monikers or, yeah, the DI pullbacks and a lot of those boycotts that did, you know, they did show up in the numbers.

5:53I mean, they did dent their sales, but it wasn't the only thing. I mean, Target's also been struggling generally in the last couple of years. So, yeah, I don't know what your thoughts are on whether they're maybe learned their lesson by now. Oh, geez, have they? I don't think so. I can totally anticipate this happening time and time again, like around Christmas. I'm not going to, you know, bring that into the air. Well, Halloween, maybe this will come back around. Halloween. Yes, this could be a revival on Halloween. But I think Target is a really interesting example because the backlash did come offline.

6:34Like we saw declines in traffic. I'm sure there's articles around that. sale pressures and organized boycott that lasted beyond the original news cycle. So I wouldn't just like dismiss this as just social media noise. But on the flip side, I also think that we have to be careful about attributing every business problem to the boycott. Like, for example, Target was dealing with merchandise issues, inconsistent stores, price sensitivity, competition. There's so many factors here. So yes, the boycott mattered, but it wasn't the only thing that was happening. I think what makes the reputational damage more durable is that the DEI rollback wasn't perceived as one random mistake.

7:27Like for some longtime customers, it felt like Target walked away from an identity that it spent years building. So that sense of betrayal almost is harder to repair than just one offensive post or listing. And then again, you have target sales and traffics that have started recovering, especially when we're looking at, you know, different shopping, back to school, for example. I'm thinking of gift guide seasons, but in translation, it's like Mother's Day, Father's Day, all of these like key periods where sales are supposedly supposed to increase. So I think it is possible for the business to recover while the reputation remains vulnerable.

8:16Like the Halloween costume is a great example. Like Target removed it so quickly, but people immediately connected it back to the DEI decision. So that leads me to say like old controversy gave the new mistake a different and larger meaning. That's what long term damage looks like to me. It doesn't always mean, you know, customers never return. It could mean that the brand loses the benefit of the doubt and every new mistakes reopens the entry case against it. So it's an interesting time for Target. We're going to see this play out like time and time. Unfortunately, I hate to, you know, be the bearer of bad news, but bluntly, this will happen again.

9:08We had the whole pride issue happen in 2025, I want to say, 2024, 2025. Yeah. About two years ago now we have the whole DI issue. I mean, there's probably countless others that hasn't made the news cycle of similar incidences that have happened. But like my my my question is, is when not when are we going to learn, but when like how many mistakes needs to be made in order to warrant change, lasting change so that an issue like this doesn't happen again? which is a little difficult because we're dealing with different groups of shoppers. You have the shoppers that are coming from social media, who's very in the know about everything bad Target or whatever brand has done.

9:59Right. And then you have the shoppers who are outside of, I'm just separating it into two different buckets, but of course there's like so many avenues here, but you have the shoppers outside of social media that just needs some toothpaste, right? So they're walking into Target to get their toothpaste unaware of what's going on on social media and internet. Like it hasn't, like the controversy hasn't hit the stores. It hasn't hit the market of people that are shopping offline and may not be touched about like what has happened or offended as I would like to say. So that's what makes, you know, the point of this whole like longevity of cancellations, It's not really a thing anymore because you have to hit all of these different avenues of shoppers.

10:46Everybody has to be offended in order to change a behavioral pattern. Yeah, I think it kind of begs the question, what is the life cycle of that? And has a brand really been truly canceled? I can't really think of anything off the top of my head where, I mean, there has been a couple of smaller examples of brands that like went out of business eventually after having a controversy. I think Youthphoria, the beauty brand that went out of business last year, they had a controversy with their, it was like a foundation tone backlash where it looked like, yeah, they had like a jet black foundation. that offended a lot of people, understandably.

11:35And so, I mean, maybe that one incident, you know, drove the conversation. But a year later, going out of business, I'm sure the business itself probably was not sound to begin with. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I do wonder whether the bigger companies, like the targets of the world, the Neutrogenas of the world that have been around for decades, and some of them are these multinational corporations, are probably going to be okay in the grand scheme of things. Sure, there's a stain there, you know, when it comes to brand image, but it's not like they're going to go out of business the next day. And so I do wonder what the ramifications are and whether any of these companies will truly face real consequences other than, of course, these boycotts that people are trying to do.

12:25But we're seeing that those are still kind of a small scale when it comes to their customer base. So, yeah, I do feel like a smaller brand probably would not survive that as we saw with Euthoria. Yeah, I agree. I think generally these legacy brands have much more protection. You have brand familiarity. You have brand recognition. You have larger distribution. You have larger just product profiles and just decades of consumer habit working in their favor. Like someone may be angry with a brand as big as Neutrogena. And I don't even know how long Neutrogena has been in business. I feel like it's been like 30, 40, 50 plus years.

13:10Correct me if I'm wrong. But someone can, are you looking at it? Neutrogena was founded in 1930. I mean, under a different name. As a brand, yeah. You have that longevity there. So someone can still be angry with Neutrogena, but still trust the sunscreen that they've had for 15 years. I personally feel that reputational damage does not outweigh the convenience. There's three different targets within walking a distance of me. me as a Black American, yes, I am offended and I feel a type of way about Target specifically with their Halloween costume and using blackface, but that's where I do grocery shopping.

13:58Like, I have not personally, and I can use me as the best example because I am a consumer of Target. I'm also a consumer of Neutrogena, PR aside. So I have not been, unfortunately, offended enough to change my behavioral pattern. Like legacy brands also have more resources to absorb a bad quarter. They can invest in new campaigns that go viral, that kind of like dies down the bad news or the bad reputation that they have garnered from the other campaign that went viral. But smaller brands, They have to depend on one hero product, one retailer, a small business standing that these larger legacy brands don't have.

14:48So they are catering to a specific customer community. And if a smaller brand loses that community trust, there might not be anything else holding the two pieces of the pie together, that relationship together. Um, so I do think the more meaning a brand has built over time, the more, um, a controversy can feel like a betrayal, like a company can survive commercially, but lose, uh, emotional trust and, and, you know, the benefit of the doubt it spent decades building. Yeah. I'm kind of curious about, you know, given your background in, uh, crisis PR, uh, have Have you yourself had to make some of these decisions alongside a brand when there's been controversy or any sort of backlash?

15:42I'd love to hear any personal anecdotes there. Oh, geez. Yes. Unfortunately, I feel like all PR has been in a position where we have to put our thinking caps on and address situations that we rather not. But come on now, in 2026, we'll have to, you know, address and say something. So in my previous experience, I have worked with Sheehan, unfortunately, not my decision. I was with, I always say, I always have to preempt that because I had no choice in the matter. At the time, I was with Michelle Marie PR, where I was a vice president. And unfortunately, Shein was one of the accounts that I was required, let's say required to work on.

16:32As we know with Shein, there's a plethora of controversies that they have to mitigate, deal with and address. And I think what's unique about Shein is that every controversy after another just does not seemingly have any impact on the brand or the business or customers' behavioral patterns. It's like time and time again, I've had actual conversations with Shein and the team members. And also, you know, the editors and influencers, if we looked at, you know, both sides of the spectrum in my job role and, you know, who I communicate with, I've had conversations on both ends where everyone can agree.

17:16I mean, you know, is she in a good standing, like ethically eco friendliness, all of those humane standards, like are they in a good standing in regards to that? No. But are they affordable and cheap and convenient? And, you know, if I'm going on vacation, I need something cute to wear that costs like five dollars. Would someone shop on there in light of all of the ethical controversies and everything? Yes. You know, again, it goes to that point. People have not been offended enough by Sheehan's behaviors and patterns. Ironically, it took tariffs to actually take a hit. Yeah, it was due to some of the tariff policies the last couple of years where they did take a hit in the U.S.

18:07and in Europe. So that was more of, again, an economic decision that some consumers made versus feeling badly about their practices. which is interesting because you see how money plays a part in all of this versus ethics you know you would think like oh if there's some child's laboring uh uh laws that they are just disrespectful with or you know the way that they make their clothing is just you know something that the larger consumer wouldn't agree with people are not inclined to change their behavioral patterns unless we have to pay more for shipping. We have to like pay for terrorists. We have to pay duties and taxes.

18:56Well, now I'm offended. Right. I'm offended now because now it's a personal attack almost, you know? So I always think that it's interesting, you know, as a PR, as a PR executive, I always like to bring brands to where their audience and consumers are like, I, I'm annoying in a sense where I'm like, yeah, you know, Shein, you're not the, the best brand in the world because of some of the things that you've done in the past and some of the articles that are out there. And, uh, maybe you should correct yourself. Maybe you should, you know, push, push out a statement that, you know, corrects some of these, um, some of these like media releases, but I am only a PR person.

19:46Right. You can only advise them. In the larger, yes, I can only advise them to do so much. I mean, they have faced repeated criticism over labor practices, environmental impact, product safety, like all of these things, which I think is just a basis for humanity. And yet it still attracts, you know, customers because of the endless selection and constant newness. And it's only until, like you mentioned earlier, with the tariffs and, you know, us being affected personally and things coming out of our wallet where now we're affected enough. It's a sad juxtaposition, but that's where Shein is these days.

20:32Yeah, I mean, you touched on something with humanity, which doesn't necessarily always come up when it comes to marketing or PR or just branding in general. But one thing that I did see a through line between the Neutrogena incident from this past week and even to some extent, like the American Eagles-Sydney Sweeney campaign from last year, which we're coming up on a year of, who's still a brand ambassador. That did not seem to deter them, is that I think sometimes the backlash is really more about how a brand is responding or even their lack of response in like a human way. Because as you know, a lot of times we'll get these generic statements just to kind of cover their bases, these companies, versus actually sounding like a human who's actually like being like, okay, we hear you, et cetera.

21:33I think in the case of Hayden, unfortunately, you know, it's like a very dark situation. There's a celebrity death involved. And what people I noticed, what people were upset about was actually the fact that they had multiple opportunities to respond. And when they did, it still kind of sounded like a little robotic and not really that human. Maybe you feel the same way about the Target costume incident. But yeah, is there a way, I guess, for a large company with all of these, you know, consultants and publicists that are advising them to address something in a human way that's actually going to resonate?

22:13Because people are still upset. I think that's sort of maybe the major through line is that there's always going to be people who are upset no matter how you respond. So how do you maybe use that as an opportunity to actually use your voice, I guess? or an authentic voice as a company. I mean, I mean, first of all, I completely agree. A lot of the time, the original mistake, as we call it, starts the controversy. But it's the response that determines whether people sees it as like one bad decision or an evidence of something greater and deeper about the company. I feel like a sounding, a very normal sounding human doesn't necessarily mean something casual.

23:02I feel like it means being specific. Like what happens? What do you understand now? Who was affected? Who are you actually changing? Like the generic, this doesn't reflect our value statement. It fails because people are thinking like, but it did reflect your value. Right. Like it did because someone approved it and it's out there in the universe. Like it came from somewhere, you know, if you if you don't explain how that as a company, if you don't explain how that happened or what will be different. I mean, the statement feels designed to end the conversation and like sweep it along. Yeah. Yeah.

23:44Like sweep it under the rug rather than like engage with it. Like American Eagle, I think is interesting because it didn't really apologize to me. I feel like it clarified. It kind of doubled down a little bit. Yes, yes, 100 percent it did. It clarified its position and stayed with Sydney. People can disagree with that decision, but it was consistent with what the brand wanted. And the brand clearly decided that it could live without the audience that was offended. It could live with this audience split almost. So another, like Neutrogena, if we bring that back into conversation, Neutrogena is a little different because its identity is tied to understanding and supporting women in regards to the statement that they made.

24:38It feels hypocritical because they have this long history of having these young female ambassadors. 100%. Yeah, sort of positivity. So yeah, it's kind of like that dark underbelly people do not like, of course. At a certain point, I feel, especially if we, you know, with the Hayden, her being an ambassador of Neutrogena, this was what, a decade long? More than a decade ago. That's kind of circled back around given that she finally spoke up. back around. And I feel like it's a little different with the way that we do partnership these days. Like, you know, it could be a one off Instagram ad, it could be a paid post, it could be like a short term, whatever.

25:21But at a certain point, 10 years, a decade worth of partnerships, I would hope like, you know, there's some humanity involved, right? Like, you know, me, you know, Hayden, not for the celebrity Hayden, or the Hayden that you're writing out paychecks for but the the young girl how old was she at the time she was probably i guess her partnership was like she started at 15 and it ended when she was maybe about 25 so that's a really long time to be with a company long time and you're i'm sure you're working with a similar team same you know neutrogena is a legacy company so i'm sure their employees last like 10 15 plus year.

26:02So you're working with relatively the same people, right? So at a certain point, it's not only a business relationship, it's also, I would hope after 10 years, personal. So I would hope people would, okay, we don't want to renew the contract with Hayden. Fine, it happens. But let's check in with her as a person because postpartum depression, you know, the topic of conversation is something that everyone, every almost, I can say, almost everyone has gone through. It's not a new terminology. It's not a new, like, you know, human experience. So it's a little disheartening that we can see after a decade long relationship that it's just business and humanity doesn't play a part.

26:48Like you can be going through the motions and not have the brand that you have an allegiance towards publicly stand by you. So it's a little sad it's a little sad i feel like especially looking back in uh 20 around 2014 2015 time like maybe they didn't view like partnerships the way uh pr and comms teams today yeah like personally yes with influencers and you know um really looking at the person behind the celebratorial status. So we're dealing with different times here. 2015 versus 2026, two very different times. Today's outrage cycle, very different. Today's cultural standards, very different.

27:42A lot faster. It's easier to dig for those receipts. It's easier to find what a brand did in the 2000s and bring that back into conversation these days. So what we're doing here, I mean, old controversy, I mean, it's being judged by today's standards. Yeah, I think the most interesting thing to me is that being, you know, in the media is that this is all being led by either creators or just normal consumers online and were the ones following the story. Whereas maybe in 2015, this had some coverage or at least the subvertise had some coverage, but it was very under wraps. There was no immediate news cycle that followed.

28:26And that is no longer an option for a lot of these companies. And they were learning that in real time. So I'm interested to see where this takes Neutrogena long term, kind of like it did with the other companies. But yeah, well, I guess we'll just have to wait and see there. But Sam, thank you so much for joining us. This was such an interesting conversation. I feel like we really delved into a lot. No, this was great. This was great. I mean, honestly, I hope the conversation continues outside of, you know, this and this podcast. because there is something to say. The media climate we're in, the cultural standards we're dealing with, the outreach cycle that we're seeing is a lot more different now than it was then.

29:12So, I mean, we'll just have to wait and see.

29:19Thank you for listening to this episode of the Modern Retail Podcast, a show by Digiday Media. If you haven't already, please subscribe and head to Apple Podcasts to leave us a review and a rating. Find more of our coverage at modernretail.co and follow us on socials like LinkedIn and Instagram at Modern Retail. You can also follow me at Gabriella Barco, that's B-A-R-K-H-O, on all socials. See you next week.

30:01Thank you.