Demi Moore Talks with Jia Tolentino

0:13This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Demi Moore was one of the biggest stars of the 80s and 90s. And for a time, she was the highest paid actress in Hollywood. And since she reemerged as a lead in the 2024 film The Substance, Demi Moore has been very busy. She's got a major role in the new season of Taylor Sheridan's Landman. And she stars in two widely anticipated films that are coming out this year. First, there's a science fiction film directed by Boots Riley. And then there's Strange Arrivals, where she plays a role alongside Coleman Domingo. And it's about a couple who claim to have been abducted by aliens.

0:51Sounds pretty good. Demi Moore's memoir, Inside Out, came out a few years ago. And this fall at the New Yorker Festival, she sat down to talk with staff writer Gia Tolentino.

1:08You had quite young parents. You moved around a ton. you were required to grow up very quickly. And you write in the memoir that all the adapting that you had to do as you moved from place to place was part of perhaps early training to become an actor. Can you just talk about that? Yeah. I mean, so I was in roughly never less than two schools a year. So we were always moving and I became quite excellent at loading a U-Haul. But one of the things when you don't know any different is that you, there's two aspects to that, yes, I became very adaptable to being in a new environment, new schools, new friends.

1:45And on the plus side, I also learned kind of the positive side of not clinging to attachment. And, you know, the downside of that is that it made it harder to know how to really nurture friendships. But that ability to be adaptable lent itself very much to what the nature of being an actor is because that is entirely what we're asked and required to do. Not just in our roles, but, you know, with each project, it's kind of like many marriages, many families that you're stepping into and each is slightly different and you, you know, have to find a way of holding on to your own center as you are in entirely new settings, environments, and with different people.

2:37When you were, did you feel when you were little that you, did you have a sense of what that center was or did it take longer to realize that you had to hold on to? I think the thing is, is when you're like always trying to just like I became very quick at assessing like what the situation is, who's who, who's popular, who's not. And and and the effort became how to fit in. But in doing so, sometimes I didn't always have a sense of myself at all. I think that that's something that evolved much more as I matured. And in truth, as I made a clearer decision about what path I wanted to take, by the way, that was still at only 15 years old.

3:28But no, I think I actually didn't know, like, well, what do I like? What do I like? because I was so always working towards just fitting in and belonging. And then, right, so you started acting as a teenager, and you were, you know, as they say, you were booked and busy. And you were also, you know, you were quite young when you had children too. You were kind of in the thick of it in terms of your career. I don't think that any one of us watching A Few Good Men could really have had any idea that you began rehearsing for that movie, I mean, mere weeks after having your second child, right? Yeah, she was a month old when we started rehearsing.

4:10And all I could think about is that I was going to be in a military uniform. Well, you're right. And you auditioned or you started, you were in talks for it. When I auditioned for A Few Good Men, I was almost eight months pregnant, which was quite awkward reading those lines with Tom Cruise with this gigantic belly. I think Tom was quite embarrassed. I actually felt okay about it I was moving around alright but I could tell he felt that it was a bit awkward Well, I mean, it's kind of amazing like you really, you pushed yourself to, you know there was an unbelievable amount of discipline in play an unbelievable amount of just like will and effort There was another part of the memoir you were writing about when you were filming Indecent Proposal Shooting days were 4am to 4pm so you'd get up at 1.30am start training by 2 do a full day shoot, you'd get off, your kids would still be up, hang out with them.

5:07And I'm kind of wondering, what does that time period feel like to you now? At that moment, none of my peers were having children. And I think that there was still a bit of a feeling that you had to choose. You had to choose a career or being a mother. And it's one of the many things for me that I just felt like that, that didn't make sense. And, and, and so I challenged that to say, you know, why not? Why, why, why can't you have both? But with that, I think came a lot of pressure I put on myself to, in a sense, prove that it was possible. And it was a lot. I look back at that time now and I go, what the fuck was I thinking?

5:52I mean, and what was I even trying to prove? But it wasn't as supported as it is today, you know, to be breastfeeding and then blocking and rehearsing a scene. Well, I was wondering, let's let's just go to the first clip from the movie that you were getting up at 1.30 to train for from A Decent Proposal. You want me to lie. You want me to say he's awful. So you know what? I'm going to tell you he's awful and you won't believe me. How can I win? Just tell me the truth. It was sex, David. Just sex, not love. Just sex. Was it good sex? Don't do this, David. Can you just tell me that, Dee? Was it good?

6:27What are you hesitating for? Just tell me. Was it good? Was it good? Was it good? Yes.

6:37Watching you watch it, the lines are still in your head. I mean, I haven't seen it in such a long time. They were coming. Your mouth was making the like, I mean, it's it's lodged, right? I mean, is it like that for a lot of stuff or just these really pivotal scenes? I don't know. Like literally, I don't know. I think I was maybe wondering what was going to be coming out of my mouth. But it's sometimes what's nice at this point in my life is that I actually have the ability to look back and have more appreciation. Yeah. I was like, yeah, that was pretty damn good. Versus remembering being in it, how critical I was, how much I just dissected and tore apart all that wasn't versus today where I can really appreciate all that is.

7:34And so it's really nice. And I appreciate being able to like see that. And I love Woody so much. he's so although doing it I have to say you know I met Woody because he was good friends with Bruce and so doing the scenes with him which obviously we have quite a few love scenes was literally like having to do it with my brother which was a little bit awkward well I wondered you know I wonder if you can talk about filming it that this scene is probably the most vulnerable moment for diana your character in the whole movie despite the fact that indecent proposal is engineered around what's ostensibly this other moment of vulnerability this you know if you haven't seen it the you know the billionaire played by robert redford offers her a million dollars for a single night and we don't see that moment like very wisely it's it's cut out but tell like tell tell us about filming that scene and summoning that the one particular with with redford no sorry this one yeah i mean i think you know this was such an interesting film in terms of the provocative nature the deep question that it was bringing forward which is is there a price for everything does everyone have a price and also like what what we will do to survive like and in this case it's you know, the pain of making a choice and having to live with the consequences is what that scene is really all about.

9:05And the unforeseen consequences of doing something that's for the higher good and not really knowing the depth of loss that could be at stake. Yeah. But you know, what's also, it is profoundly provocative movie, especially, you know I went back and re-read all the coverage but there was something about it that was you know just like you were saying so much has changed in terms of what women who are in the middle of their careers and having young children what they can sort of demand and expect and sort of it's quite different watching like all of reviews are like you know this scandalous this you know this unspeakable like but it's like you know David and Diana they talk about what happened in Vegas like Like, it's this mortal sin, right?

9:53The sin that they committed together, but that also within kind of the sexual morality of the time kind of has to sit upon your character. Like, it's made that it's a thing they did together, but somehow she... Is shamed for it. Yeah, and I'm also like, I mean, if you built a contemporary movie around this choice, I mean, it is my sense that many more people, men and women, would have offered a million dollars to spend a night with Robert Redford, which would be like, you know? I'm in. Like, does it feel less like it carries the provocation that it really did at the time? But is it is it funny to kind of think about it that way?

10:31I mean, it is interesting, but I think at the core, at the core of our humanness, like while there are aspects of, you know, that the what's a question may have changed in terms of our morality. I think in terms of the core of our humanness, the idea that you break a certain bond of being chosen, which is what's really occurring is that we have two people who've chosen each other. And by breaking that bond by her going outside for them, it's like a glass breaking that can never quite be put back together. And I don't know if that's any different today than it was then. Do you have a favorite character?

11:18That I've played? Yeah. I have a partial attachment to G.I. Jane. Because there was something in that for me that really addressed so many bigger questions at play in women's roles. And particularly, you know, just this idea of if there is someone who is skilled and has the desire, why wouldn't we want them in that? Why is gender even a question? But just on a personal level, it was really transformative for me.

11:59Demi Moore speaking with The New Yorker's Gia Tolentino. More in a moment.

12:17I'm interested in, you know, these commonalities. I've had such a fun time rewatching my way through your filmography. And, you know, you are always playing tough, incredibly capable women who are in the middle of some battle between the complex reality that that this woman lives in. and the larger world's idea of how she should be. I mean, it's maybe not every single role, but it's, you know, it's G.I.J. and the substance. And the battles often center on the body, right? Like high stakes have been placed on your character's bodies in many of your movies, whether it's the financial salvation of the household, like in Indecent Proposal or Striptease, you know, or the entry of women into combat or, you know, in the substance.

12:56Decades of box office, millions of dollars have been riding on Elizabeth Sparkle. And yeah, Disclosure. Like there are many movies of yours that engage these ideas. And I was wondering if you ever remember a moment of sort of seeing these commonalities and trying to, like, at what point did you realize that you were playing these characters that were? I mean, I think so often, well, one, I really feel like roles choose you as much as you choose them. And I do think you're 100 % right that there is a thread that goes through, even if it's an unconscious one. And I think mine tend to also challenge the status quo.

13:39And there is a certain physicality. And I think that a lot of that was in an effort also for me to overcome some of my own issues around my body and my own discomfort in my own body. And, you know, with particularly the ones that were so physical, like G.I. Jane, where I really knew that my body was a real pivotal part of the character. It pushed me to have to, in a sense, face myself and face that discomfort. And you wrote in the memoir that this was, you know, the film that you were most proud of because it was the hardest for you to make in every way, emotionally, physically, mentally. And I wonder if you can tell us about just, you know, playing this character, the training.

14:29I think, like, you did it all. You outlasted Sam Rockwell, who dropped out because of the water shoots or, you know, whatever. And, you know, you wrote that they called you Jordan, your character's name, the whole time. And by the end, you know, they were yelling at the guys, are you going to let yourself get beaten by some mother of three? Yeah, I mean, it was, you know, when I went down to do the the the training before we started filming, it was literally me and 40 guys. They like made it so that I really had to feel like in the movie. I had to feel like physically, emotionally, mentally, what the experience would be that that you go through through the buds training.

15:11and I mean, even down to being freezing in the water and saying, oh my God, I have to pee and somebody saying, well, let it go and I hope it comes downstream. I'm like, wow, I am really in it. I am in in this. Well, I was, when rewatching the movie, I was struck by this other confrontation between you and Viggo Mortensen's character, this moment where he is haranguing Jordan in the shower. The Israelis tried it, women in combat. Seems men couldn't get used to the sight of women blown open. They'd linger over the wounded females, often trying to save those who obviously couldn't be saved, often to the detriment of the mission.

15:54You were given a Navy Cross, right? Can I ask what you got it for? Since it bears on this conversation, I got it for pulling a 240-pound man out of a burning tank. So when a man tries to rescue another man, he's a hero. But when he tries to rescue a woman, he's just gone soft. Could you pull that man clear? Lieutenant, you couldn't even haul your own body weight out of the water today. Permission to get dressed, Master Chief? And it's an interesting decision that I love so much looking back. It's like she's nude. She's in the shower. It's this intimate and charged moment. The two of you are obviously incredibly hot, but it's not played.

16:41But it's the movie. It's not played like that. There's no it's it's brusque. It's short. There's no charged like it's there was not a sexual. It's not it's brusque. It's quick. And and I was and I was I was thinking about that and how, you know, kind of for even a movie of that time. That's that's unusual. That's an unusual decision to not have there be kind of a like a moment. And I was thinking about another bit of your memoir when you wrote, when you were writing about A Few Good Men, you wrote, what I admired most about A Few Good Men was the originality Aaron Sorkin and Rob Reiner showed by not having my character in Tom's get involved in anything romantic or even unprofessional.

17:19There was an expectation at that time on the part of studios and audience that if an attractive woman showed up on film, it was only a matter of time before you saw her in bed with a leading man or at least half naked. Sorkin said he wrote to an exec who had been lobbying hard for a sex scene. And he said, I'll never forget what the executive wrote back, which was, well, if Tom and Demi aren't going to sleep together, then why is Demi a woman? And in that time, to be fair, like that, you know, it was really a big part of the dynamic that was at play. And so I really I always really appreciated that they took a stand for the integrity of the material because that it wouldn't have ever been right.

17:58and it didn't need it yeah it didn't need it there's there's a there's something different about the substance in that your characters have tended to be fearless more or less i mean they they have their vulnerabilities but they they go through life like they do what needs to be done like they are just doing like they are unbelievably competent they don't they don't have a breakdown and kind of you know the front they put on to the world basically and your performances are all fearless. But this film struck me as a little different because Elizabeth is actually wracked with fear and she shows it.

18:32You said, accepting your golden globe, that a producer told you 30 years ago that you were a popcorn actress, meaning, as you said, that I could make very successful films that make a lot of money, but I wasn't going to be recognized. And you said, there came a moment where I thought that was it. Maybe I was complete and I had done what I was supposed to do. And, you know, and people in the substance, you know, people reacted in a way that repudiated all of that so forcefully, like people responding to your, your acting, your craft, like not your presence, not your star power, but really the particularity and the nuance of what you were doing.

19:03And I wondered if that changed the way that you, like, what does that do to your own process now? Like if it changed the way either you look for and consider new roles, or if it made you think differently about the work that you had done in past decades? I mean, I think, you know, in my own growth, you know, what I've learned is how we relate to the issue is the issue. How I related to myself for a very long time was only that of what I wasn't. Everything that I hadn't done, what I, and I really didn't have a sense of my own value or appreciation. So if there's probably any thread of everything I've done, it's probably in finding that sense of value that I didn't get in the foundation of when I grew up that.

19:54And so I don't know. So how do I? So your question is, let me go back, is do I see myself differently now? How does it change the way you go after new roles now? I mean, no, it's still the same for me. It's, you know, really looking to do stuff that still, you know, really pushes the envelope that pushes me to places I need to do something enough that I'm willing to fail. So I think my only other thing I was going to share is that I realized today that, you You know, there's a point in my early career where I had nothing to lose because I didn't have anything. And then I had a little bit of success where you then start to get afraid of losing that success.

20:40And sometimes that fear of losing creates a contraction and then you fear taking a risk. And so what I've always tried to do is keep pushing myself beyond that limit. Thank you. The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Louis Mitchell and Jared Paul. This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Sommer, with guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, Victor Guan, and Alejandra Deckett.

21:54And special thanks this week to Catherine Sterling, Amanda Miller, Julia Rothschild, Nico Brown, and Michael Etherington. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Charina Endowment Fund.