Erin Brockovich Takes on Data Centers

0:00The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported by Amazon Music. With Amazon Music Unlimited, you can listen to music, podcasts, and now audiobooks, all in one app. This includes popular titles like Project Hail Mary, one of the most beloved adventure stories by Andy Weir. I have been listening to this audiobook and constantly looking for any pockets of time during the day to turn it on and find out what will happen next in the story. So whether you're catching up on a podcast, listening to your favorite playlist, or, like me, getting lost in a great audiobook, it's all right there within the Amazon Music app.

0:31Amazon Music. Music, podcasts, audiobooks, all in one app. The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC and The New Yorker.

0:47This is The New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. The name Erin Brockovich has been synonymous with a fighter taking on big polluters. And, of course, many of us remember her from the film, which dramatized a landmark case against a California utility, Pacific Gas and Electric, which had poisoned the groundwater in a small town. Julia Roberts played Erin Brockovich. These people don't dream about being rich. They dream about being able to watch their kids swim in a pool without worrying that they'll have to have a hysterectomy at the age of 20. like Rosa Diaz, a client of ours, or have their spine deteriorate like Stan Bloom, another client of ours.

1:26So before you come back here with another lame-ass offer, I want you to think real hard about what your spine is worth, Mr. Walker, or what you might expect someone to pay you for your uterus, Miss Sanchez. Then you take out your calculator and you multiply that number by a hundred. Anything less than that is a waste of our time. By the way, we had that water brought in special for you folks. It came from well in Hinkley. Erin Brockovich has been involved in other major cases against polluters since then, and she runs a research firm that consults for lawyers. Earlier this year, she began receiving emails from people worried about the construction of AI data centers, something that's happening at a frenetic pace all over the country.

2:13Erin Brockovich. Hey. How are you? How are you? Good. Good. How are you? I'm good. You making some good trouble? I didn't set out to do that, but apparently yes. Yes, you did. Who are you kidding? I really, it was a total surprise to me. Erin, it's been 30 years, 30 years. Oh, my God. I know. We're going to start this way. It's been 30 years since a certain legal case about groundwater contamination changed your life and the lives of a lot of other people and inspired the movie that we know you by. And you've been filing lawsuits around chemical pollutants for years thereafter. Now you're involved with data centers.

2:56You're involved in this for a fairly brief time, right? Just for a few months. And you're collecting information. This is the beginning of your process. How would you assess what the opposition is to the construction of data processing centers? How much pushback has already begun against the tech companies on this? A lot. This is, in my 30 years, I've never really seen the people show up like they are at a very local level. Just down in Florida, and they got a moratorium. The city council meeting went on for 12 hours. and it just, it was an overflow. And every city council meeting now, you're just seeing this huge overflow of people.

3:53When I started the map, when a community reached out to me. Explain what the map is. So it's pretty simple. It's called Brockovich Data Center, But it's a map where people who have data centers being developed, proposed, or up and running in and around the country can report their issues to the map. And it comes to me in a submission, you know. I go through 12 ,000 and I read each one. So for me, it was a visual to see the bigger picture. What does the map look like? well with all the the red dots now it's getting pretty hard it's getting pretty hard it's just coast to coast data centers it's coast to coast data centers and so it's pretty incredible it's very incredible and it's it is it's actually really um very concerning you know they're they're building in many drought restricted areas and i don't know that people always understand and you You know, listen, this has been a huge learning curve for me.

5:02And I'm learning from the people on the inside, the workers, the people, the city hall and everybody. The amount in the consumption of water, it is almost staggering. And the bigger hyperscales can use anywhere from one to seven, possibly eight million gallons of water per day. Now, what does a data center do in terms of the environmental drag on a community? So what they're reporting is, and this is not just a few towns here or there, it's just everybody has the same report. A, during the construction phase. These are not small facilities. They're 2 ,200 acres. They're 3 ,000 acres. They're 4 ,000 acres.

5:55And the first thing that they get extremely upset about is the destruction of the land. You're talking rural land. So all the trees, all the vegetation, all the farmland, all goes away. It's disruptive to their sanctuary. It's disruptive to the wildlife. People are definitely reporting changes in the wildlife, the absence of wildlife, dead wildlife. and they find that very concerning. And in the construction phase, wells can often get damaged. The construction for people that are there will tell you is almost violent. You can feel the ground shaking. So all your water can get very turbid. People have lost their well pressure.

6:43Their wells have been damaged. They're having to drill for deeper wells. And the gentleman that I I reported on Austin Newsome is his name, and he's in a litigation. But his house is unlivable at this point. Why is that? Because now the water, you can't drink the water. You can't bathe the water. The water pressure is too low. He's got young children, and they just can't. I mean, they can't live without water, and they can't now drink their water. And I'm really surprised at the number of reports, consistent reports from varying states on these large data centers is the 24-7 humming, the decibels, how far they go out, how disruptive it is.

7:28It's just a nonstop, almost buzz, hum in their ears 24-7, and they're finding it extremely disruptive, creating a lot of anxiety. More and more information is coming in now by submission. People now reporting their utility bills. You know, a water bill that was$30 is now almost$300. Why has it gone up so fast? because of all the energy that has to be required to build these huge data centers. So the locals are paying the bill. Correct. And they're starting to send in their before and after electric bills. So on the map, we kind of will list stats of the number of people that have reported how many have now reported electrical issues and water bill increases.

8:19And that is definitely on the rise, but I have one woman and she says, you know, I'm on a fixed income. So now it's, do I pay my electric bill or eat? We are, and I am seeing some reports, and this is where I'm going to start going out to these ranches, to these locations, with these communities to see exactly what's happening. But they're starting to report, They're noticing that they're seeing more stillbirths in the cows. So there are a lot of things. Stillbirths that are demonstrably the fault of data centers. Do we have any evidence of that? No. What they're saying is since the data centers came in and began up and running with this constant noise, it seems that they're now noticing more stillbirths.

9:07So we'll stipulate that that's going to require more research to figure out if there's any relationship. Oh, my gosh, yes. Yeah. Absolutely. But let me ask you this. What laws, if any, are being broken in the construction of these data centers, whether it's in rural areas or near closer to suburban areas? I'm definitely getting reports from people working inside and from the counties and the cities that there was inappropriate permitting, inappropriate zoning. That is definitely a big issue for everybody at the city council level, how they got in, how they came in as a pretense of a warehouse.

9:45They were a data center, that type of thing at a very local level. I'm not quite sure what you mean by inappropriate. Are you suggesting that government officials are profiting in some way by giving permits, building permits and the like? Well, according to many communities at their local levels, they're showing up. They're changing zoning ordinances. Some are building without the appropriate permits. And yeah, I think it's very difficult for city council members when these big tech giants come in and they offer, you know, they want money for the city. So they're getting money for that. And the people had no say in that.

10:29And they're also saying the money that they did receive wasn't changing their environment. So that seems to be the crux of the problem. Who decides, who gets to decide about the construction of a data center and then who profits and how, if there is one, and then what effect on the public health there is. Am I right? Yes. And the big issue is non-disclosure. Nobody was informed of anything. There was no city council meeting for the ones that are being proposed now that they know there was a nondisclosure, but now they're having city council meetings. So they're asking local government officials to sign NDAs about arrangements between tech companies and the purchase of real estate?

11:12Yes. Everyone's been reporting that. It's been a nondisclosure agreement that a city council level who are in charge. You've got to go to the local council to get your permits to build and zone. And they're changing zoning ordinances are signing non-disclosures. I'm talking with Erin Brockovich. More in a moment.

11:52I'm Emily Flake, cartoonist at The New Yorker. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported by Bombas. Summer's here and we are living for all things outdoors. Whether your thing is jogging, heading to the beach, or grilling in front of your stoop, Bombas makes your comfiest summer staples so you can make the most out of all your summer plans. They've got a whole line of pro-level, sports-specific socks for golf, yoga, the gym, and socks for every kind of runner. I personally do not run if I can help it, but I walk everywhere. And if I don't get my 10 ,000 steps in, my phone will yell at me. These socks are so soft and cushioned right where I need it, whether I'm doing a power saunter in the park or just running a million errands.

12:29Plus, they're airy, sweat-wicking. My feet feel as good after a long day of pounding the pavement as they did when I left the apartment. Head over to bombas.com slash radio hour and use code radio hour for 20 % off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash radio hour. Code radio hour at checkout. WNYC Studios is supported by Wayfair. One of the things I love most in the world is cooking for my family and friends. But if you could see my kitchen, you might have concerns. Chaotic would be a polite term to describe it. So believe me when I tell you that my recent Wayfair finds have worked miracles.

13:05The kitchen baker's rack and three-tier countertop organizer have tamed that chaos and made my kitchen a beautiful place that is so much easier to work in. Who knew I'd been cooking on hard mode? Wayfair can breathe new life into your home or office with furniture and decor that's built to last and prices that help you make a space you love without breaking the bank They have a huge range of options for every budget and Wayfair Rewards members get 5 % back every day You can see real customer feedback and photos so you get to shop with confidence and feel good about what you're buying So whether you're beating back kitchen chaos or just looking for a rug to pull the room together Wayfair is here to help.

13:42Join Wayfair Awards today to get 5 % back on every purchase and start saving on your next home upgrade. Head to Wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R dot com. Wayfair. Every style, every home. Wayfair. Every style, every home. WNYC Studios is supported by Monarch. Hi. My name is Emily Flake, and I'm a cartoonist for The New Yorker. I've been living the freelance life for over two decades, And if there's one thing I've learned, it's that financial savvy is not among my skill set. I can write you a joke or draw you a picture, but balancing my bank account might as well be sorcery.

14:18That's why the Monarch Personal Finance app has been a lifesaver. Monarch has taken my chaotic money picture and given me a clear picture of where my money is going, where I can budget better, and how I might even save a little? Revolutionary. It's like having a financial advisor in my pocket. It sends weekly updates that help me keep track of spending, easy-to-read diagrams, I do love a visual, and even has an AI assistant that can answer questions like, how much did I spend on streaming services? And can I afford this skincare kit? Monarch's bill split even makes it easy to sort out the check at the end of the night with friends.

14:49It takes the guesswork and the anxiety out of my finances. And who couldn't use a little more clarity in their lives? Write your own money story with Monarch. Use code NEWYORKER at MONARCH.COM to get your first year of Monarch Core half off at just$50. That's 50 % off your first year at Monarch.com with code NEWYORKER. WNYC Studios is supported by Hero Bread. Okay, I love bread. But sadly, I love bread more than bread loves me. I can handle gluten, not to brag, but bread seems to hit my waistline like cake. Furthermore, I seem to have become a person who cares about her fiber and protein intake, and bread just wasn't helping me with those goals.

15:27That's why I was so excited to learn about Hero Bread. Look, I've messed around with low-carb breads and baked goods, and most of them taste more like a cardboard box than something you'd actually want to eat. But not Hero Bread. Their sliced white and seeded loaves taste like actual bread, without the hit to the scale. And they help me meet those fiber and protein numbers. And Hero doesn't just do bread. We're talking tortillas, buns, bagels, plus fun new options like Hero Noodles, 32 grams of fiber, 12 grams of protein, and just 80 calories per serving, if you're a numbers person. And limited-edition treats like lemon poppy seed scones and pan au chocolat.

16:00All keto-friendly, all packed with fiber, all high in protein and low in sugar, and most importantly, all delicious. So stop chasing your fitness goals by eating cardboard. Hero Bread is offering 10 % off your order. Go to Hero.co and use code NEWYORKER at checkout. That's code NEWYORKER at H-E-R-O dot C-O.

16:23Aaron, you've got Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez trying to put together a AI data center moratorium act. How prevalent is that in American politics? In other words, how much support do you see out there for this kind of moratorium? So, well, there's federal, there's state, and there's local. when we started, the moratoriums were starting to come. And maybe 12 weeks ago, maybe over 100 local counties and cities in multiple states had put on either pauses for six months, moratoriums for at least two years, because now as city council and states have seen the pushback from the people.

17:19They're like, let's wait, because now city council wants to know more information. And we have seen some flat-out bans. We had one here in California in Monterey Park where they flat-out ban it. We've now seen 300 municipalities with moratoriums and or bans. We've now seen 14 states that have come in with possible, you know, state oversight. And we just saw New York completely ban them. So it's kind of growing in regards to the moratorium and what kind of we just have no information. I mean, everybody in any leadership is like, wait a minute, you've got to tell us what you're doing. What who's going to pay for the electrical?

18:10What is going with the water? What is going to be your water consumption? What size of land mass do you need? And so now you are seeing, as you said, Bernie Sanders and AOC looking at some federal oversight. And I'm watching that get some momentum. Does the political debate break down along party lines or is it bipartisan? It's bipartisan. I'm definitely seeing that. That is pretty well known as everyone's starting to talk more and more and more and more and more about the data centers. Do you think it'll be a campaign issue in the midterms and in the presidential election in 2028? I do. Well, possibly, yes.

18:55So I don't know if you watched the situation, and I watched with fascination, the situation that happened out in Utah. and the people just showed up in huge numbers, so much so, and they were so upset about the size of the facility, the damage it could do to the Great Salt Lake. Utah is already in a huge drought. In fact, Erin, the president of the state Senate in Utah just lost his seat over this issue. Yes, I do think this could be a very important thing for the leaders. And I really, I've always been this way. And ever since I began my work in Hinkley, I've just never understood it. When you have issues so important to the people, why on earth you don't listen to them or completely disregard that they're showing up and they're like, we don't want this.

19:57Have a conversation with this. And that's one thing I've learned, in community after community after community for 30 years, communities are willing to cooperate. Communities want to have their voice heard. They want to have a seat at the table. They are willing to compromise, but what they won't deal with is the lie. And that this is, again, I feel like I've come full circle. That young girl that showed up in Hinkley, California, What was really motivating the community and their frustration was, you lied. I didn't know. And that's the exact same thing that's happening here. This feels like the 90s to you again in some way.

20:43It does. I just feel full circle and I'm watching. You know, Hinkley was one town, one utility, and one aquifer. This is every town, every utility, every resource across the country. I think the stakes are really high for the people and what's really got their goat, if you will, in everything. And I've had mayors call me. I've had city council members call me. I've had California legislation call me. and I'm getting the same reports. Other city council members who are now not in office, this was an absolute secret. Have the AI companies reached out to you to say, hey, Aaron, well, you know, we understand your concern, but we're really not so terrible.

21:40We're doing X, Y, and Z to, you know, ameliorate the situation or anything. Do you ever hear from the corporate side where they try to get you to come on over and understand their point of view? No. Never. I have to laugh at that. They're like, oh, shit. They're not that stupid. No. You know, that's interesting because I did get a text from somebody who said there was a data center executive out of Dallas. It's somebody that I work with, would like to have a meeting. Will you take that meeting? Here's the thing. Sure. With the people. You don't have to have a meeting with me. You have to have a meeting with the people.

22:27With the community in question. Whose backyards are being, their life turned upside down. And I'll be happy to show up for a meeting with all of them. Erin, I wonder, do you use AI yourself? No, not much. I get curious. I use it out of curiosity. And when I do talk about AI, I encourage people. Remember who you're talking to. It's a machine, okay? It is a tool that could be used for good purposes. I don't think it's be-all, end-all. And I've always encouraged people, it's a tool. But you have to use your own brain. Vet your information. It's a tool. Use it for the good tool it is. You don't need to use it for anything else.

23:18So use it or don't use it. But the fact that to have this AI is at the expense, first of all, the big companies don't be appearing to pay for it. Now we're watching a lot of things happen and where states are now not giving them the tax breaks. They're starting to say, you have to pay for all the electrical. But for us, we the people, to now have to have water consumption issues, electrical bills going up, water bills going up, the loss of our sanctuary, our wildlife, everything and all the resources at once are at jeopardy. It's too much. The name Erin Brockovich is associated with class action lawsuits.

24:05Do you see a class action lawsuit in the offing here? Well, the case that I was involved in that everyone became famous for, Hinckley, was a direct action, not a class action. That depends. You could. There's a lot of diminution of property value. But I would see possibly in that, that's going to be up to all the lawyers to decide. It wouldn't be one national class. It could be state by state. But I see the lawsuits coming. You are seeing more citizens and communities that are organized hiring attorneys. I'm starting to see actually now in a couple of places where they've put on moratoriums, the city councils are now being sued by the tech giants.

24:52There's a couple of them out there for$100 million or more. That's going to be really hard for these small local cities to push back on that. So I think that you'll start to see more litigation like that. AI executives will tell you this is going to bring a lot of jobs, endless amounts of innovation. It's going to make everybody's life better. And you're, you know, yeah, again, there's difficulties along the way. How much do you trust, if at all, AI executives and AI innovators? I don't. I don't, and I don't think the people do. And you're showing all of them that you can't be trustworthy. If this is so great and so awesome, what's the non-disclosure agreement?

25:41If it's so great and so awesome, come out here and talk to these communities whose lives you are turning upside down. It's no different than PG &E, hiding the information and not coming out to talk to these people, oh, behind your back, I'm sorry, I'm poisoning you. So there's not going to be a lot of trust with these giant corporations. So this is just about money then, in the end. For them? Sure. But for the people, it's their land, it's their home, it's their water, it's their resources, it's their sanctuary. It's the rivers and the creeks and the tributaries that all of us enjoy. And it's coming at like a mass invasion.

26:26We're not talking one or two. We're talking it's happening simultaneously across the country. And so there's not going to be a lot of trust with the people. Tell me your next steps. Well, right now, gathering more information, I'm going to start going out to some of these communities. I'm going to start going out to some of the ones that are construction, up and running. And in some communities are asking me to start coming to their city council members' meetings. And look, I can't be everywhere at once, but this is what I tell the people. You're there, you're showing up. And so on my Brockovich report, every week we're doing a story about this.

27:07We give a lot of tips to different communities who they can network with, how they can join forces. And that's really important because it's really hard as one. and they are starting to make a difference. And the more of them that are together, the more support they are for each other. I've not ever seen this in 30 years. Erin Brockovich, thanks so much. Hey, thank you. Erin Brockovich. The mapping tool that she's launched is at BrockovichDataCenter.com. BrockovichDataCenter.com. I'm David Remnick, And that's our program for today. Thanks for joining us.

28:18Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, Victor Guan, and Alejandra Deckett. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Charina Endowment Fund.

28:40Hi, I'm Nicole Phelps, Global Fashion News and Features Director at Vogue and co-host of the Run-Through podcast. Each week on the show, our listeners get an all-access pass into the world of Vogue. On Tuesdays, join me as I interview influential designers like Calvin Klein, Rachel Scott, and Simone Belotti. On Thursdays, join Chloe Mao, head of editorial content at Vogue US, and Choma Nadi, British Vogue's head of editorial content, as they explore fashion through the lens of culture with guests like Doja Cat and Margot Robbie. Listen and watch The Run Through with Vogue wherever you get your podcasts and Vogue's YouTube channel.