Jessica Tarlov, a Lonely Liberal on Fox News’ “The Five”

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0:57The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC and The New Yorker. This is The New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. We hear constantly that it's harder and harder to communicate across the country's partisan divides. MAGA conservatives, moderates, liberals, progressives, they tend to hold negative views of one another and attend different institutions and churches and colleges and social groups. In the Trump era, people don't want to talk to those who have different political views, or not often. And they certainly don't want to hang out with them. So it can't be easy for Jessica Tarloff to show up for work on the Fox News panel show The Five.

1:40The Five, if you're not familiar with it, features diehard conservatives like Dana Perino, Greg Gutfeld, and Jesse Waters, and one token liberal on the hot seat. Tarloff alternates that role with Harold Ford Jr. And her exchanges with fellow panelists can get pretty heated pretty fast.

1:59Jessica Tarlov:All Republicans that voted to confirm him who are saying we are denying people vaccines. You promised to uphold the highest standards for vaccines and have not done so. What vaccines has he denied someone? Oh, COVID-19. Exactly. Who can't get a COVID-19 shot? To Eric Erickson's wife to begin and Bill Cassidy used. Wait a second. You mean you can't walk into your doctor's office and get a COVID-19 shot? Why don't you ever prepare? Why don't you prepare? The Five is the most watched program on cable news, with a daily audience of well over 3 million. So there are a lot of eyes on Jessica Tarloff and how she represents liberal views in front of a largely hostile and conservative audience.

2:40She's written a book largely inspired by her work on Fox called I Disagree, Winning Arguments Without Losing Friends.

2:50Jessica Tarlov:I grew up in a pretty political household, parents quite active, typical boomer liberal types. So I consider myself part of the center-left moderates. I have a podcast called Raging Moderates. So an angry moderate who wants to win elections and will go into any venue to talk about it. So that's a great way to start. What is an angry moderate? Because it seems like an oxymoron. It's all of us now, isn't it? I spend a lot of my time looking at the data and the polling. I have a background as a political researcher and pollster. I did a PhD in politics at the London School of Economics. But an angry moderate today, I think, is someone who understands the gravity of the moment that we're in and is laser focused on winning elections as the only solution to that.

3:41Jessica Tarlov:The system is set up a certain way and that you have to get into the system, i.e. you have to win the seat or the election in order to be able to make any change. And how do you see your role? First and foremost, part of the table. But I see myself as part of a fraught and oftentimes friendly bipartisan ensemble discourse that very much reflects real life. What's the virtue of you being the one out of the five and and what's the danger of it? You have an opportunity to have this tremendous platform, a huge amount of eyeballs on it, which is bipartisan. So we have 20 percent Democrats, 30 percent independents and 50 percent Republican.

4:26Jessica Tarlov:And that's everything from a Romney Republican to MAGA. And I get to not just make the Democrats' case or the Democratic Party's case. I get to make my case, which I think is a very sensible and logical blend of policy and humanity that resonates with people. I grew up watching William F. Buckley on the right and debating, you know, somebody from the Black Panthers or William Kunstler, the lefty lawyer, or Allen Ginsberg. I mean, it was very exciting. It was intellectually entertaining. What's the goal now? It doesn't seem things are more rough-hewn. You know, are you trying to persuade? Are we trying to entertain?

5:15What's the purpose? Why are you there?

5:18Jessica Tarlov:So I want to win elections. I don't work for the Democratic Party. Democrats, when they're in office, elicit better policy outcomes for everybody. So there's an idealism to it, not just careerism. No. And I understand I'm on, you know, we're entertaining. And you can't keep 4 million viewers watching it if you aren't entertaining. There are a lot of people who watch either people on your show or Sean Hannity or Laura Ingram, and they can't believe that they're actually saying this. It's an alternative reality. Exactly. They don't really believe that they mean it. Certainly have heard that. People ask, how much of what they say do they believe?

5:54Jessica Tarlov:And likewise, people have asked me, how much of what you say do you believe? And if you spend time consistently with me, you'll see the days when I'm railing against the party for something that I think is a mistake. Like, I don't know how many times I can say, I think that Blue City mayors should cooperate with ICE to turn over people who have committed crimes on American soil. not crossing the border, but once they got here. If you don't do that, then Stephen Miller gets the wind beneath his sails, and he goes after people who have been here for decades who work at a car wash. And nobody wants that.

6:29Jessica Tarlov:Donald Trump doesn't even want that. You've talked to Trump. No. Never? Nope. You want to? He's talked about me. He certainly has. Donald Trump once came after you on Truth Social for citing some portfilling numbers, and he wrote this. Why does Fox News allow failed TV personality Jessica Tarloff to soil the five? Her voice, her manner, and above all else, what she says are a disgrace to television broadcasting. When you read that on Truth Social, do you feel terrible or do you go, I like that? No, I feel terrible. Do you? Generally. Really? Yeah. My husband will try to gauge the reaction. He's like, can she see the value in her platform and her persona being elevated like this?

7:13Jessica Tarlov:You know, hero to the resistance left, et cetera. And then I'm mostly in tears about it. Not that one in particular. So what really gets to you? What really gets to me is threatening my job. I like all of your shows, actually. I'm glad Jessica's not there. Because I think, no, actually, I think your show would be better without it. But, you know, who am I to say that? I think it would be a lot better. I think people who act as if it is not meaningful that the most powerful person in the world is personally attacking you are being dishonest. And I see no reason to do that. And I've shared that with my colleagues.

7:53Jessica Tarlov:What do they say? It's not nice. They also know that if you engage him, it just makes him stronger. Like, you know, in The Little Mermaid when Ursula keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger. Sorry, I have a two and a four-year-old, so we're deep in the Disney trove. That's how I see Trump when he's being fed. So when I have conversations with people in Congress, for example, Democrats will always say to me, you know, our Republican colleagues. Yeah, behind the scenes. Behind the scenes. They can't believe it. They can't believe it. They say this, that, and the other thing about Trump, but then they go pull the lever and they vote the way they do.

8:29Is that the same at Fox?

8:30Jessica Tarlov:I think they believe what they say, or at least the core of it. I mean, one of the most important lessons that I think I've gotten from working in conservative media as a liberal is how angry they are at how life has been for conservatives when Democrats are in office. The Obama years just meant such radically different things to liberals and to conservatives. Well, let's dig down on that. Somebody who's got a very high-paying job on Fox, who has all the privileges in the world, how have they been in some way injured by, say, the Obama years? What is the sense of resentment that they're feeling?

9:13I'm not battling back against it. I want to understand it.

9:16Jessica Tarlov:Yeah. Something like not having the same kind of journalistic access, let's say, to the administration, you know, favored outlets versus ones not as much, that what they do, which is giving voice to that factory worker and millions of people across this country, is not worth spending a few minutes talking to someone about. I'm speaking with Jessica Tarloff. More in a moment.

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14:00You're on an opinion discussion show, but you come, as I've watched you, you come well-armed with facts and figures, and you seem to live in what many people call the reality-based universe. I think a lot of people would look at Fox's journalism about any number of big stories, whether it's election fraud, so-called, or January 6th, or any number of issues. And it's hard to credit that as real journalism as I understand it. How am I wrong?

14:31Jessica Tarlov:Well, listen, I've been very clear and was all through around January 6th. And what it was, I call it an insurrection. Regularly, Donald Trump was responsible for it. And so did many people on Fox for a hot minute. Bill Hemmer, Brett Baier were on air. But then they stopped. No, well, they didn't stop. And you see, Brett Baier, and you've had Brett here, has to defend the Arizona call to a bunch of rabid election deniers. Would you say that Fox helps foment that denier? That has been litigated. When people walk up to that line and, you know, they're talking about, you know, this thing or that thing that happened that might not have been big enough to swing votes, but there was something funny going on.

15:18Jessica Tarlov:And I believe the point of what I'm doing is to say, you just don't want to go there. Like, this is done. It's not only done and dusted. It can never happen again. What have you learned more about conservatives by sitting in the seat that you do that you didn't know before? On specific issues, I think that I have been able to see it from the other perspective. And a lot of liberals have gone through an evolution when it comes to, you know, border security under Biden and things like that. I have learned a lot about people's pro-life views by being with genuine religious conservatives. And then I've even moderated the way that I talk about abortion to be more in step with, frankly, the European standard rather than when we just say safe, legal and rare, because that sounds insane to people.

16:13Jessica Tarlov:if you sit down and say that, versus, you know, can we have a conversation about a viability standard? Is that at, you know, 24 weeks and then obviously exceptions for life of the mother? That comes from talking to people who have, you know, deeply held beliefs that life begins at conception or that it has to be first trimester, for instance. What can you not wrap your head around? I can't wrap my head around thinking that Donald Trump has moved this country in a good direction and that there are so many people who are willing to compromise what they know to be true about character and morals and all of these things.

16:53I think a lot of people share that with you.

16:56Jessica Tarlov:I know, but it doesn't win elections. No, okay, I understand that. So that's like a me talking versus how I would advocate on TV. Let's leave elections alone for a second. You go to work each day with people who do do that, who do find a way to say, oh, that's just him or that's him being funny or he doesn't really mean it. How do your colleagues, in your view, see that or have a kind of cognitive dissonance where they push it to the side? That's hard for me to understand. I understand. And I think that we might have, frankly, a different idea of morality about how a politician behaves than they would inherently.

17:38Jessica Tarlov:They have found a way to make someone into a policy vehicle that they like and excuse the other stuff. And we are always looking for both. And also, people just think politicians are bad dudes. Across the board. Yeah. I mean, you would see those numbers over and over again. You know, faith in Congress cares about people like me. Every institution has gone down in standing. Even fire departments are down 4 % in approval. That's a stunning fact. Yes. Why would that be? Because I'm the data person. Why would that be? I think people just don't think society works. People don't trust doctors in the same way.

18:21Jessica Tarlov:Right. I mean, our insurance system in general is horrific, which is why you have people who would typically be part of, you know, the moderate crew or the center left who are talking about Medicare for all now. Ruben Gallego, for instance, right? And that's what I talk about when you talk about an angry moderate. It's a Ruben Gallego set of policy proposals, right, where you say, yeah, we're all, we should all have health care and we need to close the border. And that's a good thing. You're looking at the midterm elections, I'm sure, and you're also looking at a very fractured Democratic Party.

18:54You've seen Zoran Mamdani. You've seen AOC. They've emerged not only in their particular offices, but I would have to think that AOC, for example, is a lot more powerful than just the district that she's representing.

19:08Jessica Tarlov:100 percent. And she'll be even more when she's perhaps our senator and then maybe when she's a candidate for president. How do you feel about that? I feel better than I used to about it. Yeah. Because she said no to DSA here and there? She didn't say no to DSA. She has great instincts. She didn't touch Graham Plattner. She didn't endorse in that race. She wasn't running up to Maine, you know, ready to stump for him. I don't know if it's because she was a bartender. She was like, I know that guy. Yeah. She didn't endorse against sitting Democratic representatives here in New York. If it's an open seat.

19:46Jessica Tarlov:That's one thing. But she's part of a caucus. And that was certainly a nod to Hakeem Jeffries. I mean, I pay a lot of attention to her because clips of her are constantly used in conservative media. Right. So it all makes her stronger. Jesse Waters, one of your co-hosts, recently commented on Pete Hegseth's plan to screen testosterone levels in the military. And he said the guys that don't need it are going to take it to triple boost. Right. And then they're going to get out there. And women on base, you guys better be careful. Port calls, women in Asia, you better be careful. Because these guys are going to be wild animals, and you better watch out.

20:26Now, you weren't on the panel.

20:27Jessica Tarlov:I was not on the panel. Lucky you. Do you talk to him? Do you say anything? I did ask him when I came back. And he was like, of course I wasn't condoning rape. And you have to, if you were a consumer of Jesse Waters, you would not. You'd get it as pure comedy. You might not think it's funny. Right. I would not have had a ha-ha moment at that. I know that Jesse Waters doesn't think it's okay to rape people. It's certainly not something like I would have said. And I know I have a particular style with Jesse. We're very combative, like siblings. But it links to something that I think is core to this whole discussion.

21:12Jessica Tarlov:People who like Jesse or people who watch Jesse a lot give benefit of the doubt on something like that and also know that he's not ill-intentioned. That has a life to it in the clip economy that I think might not in the regular viewership economy. Do your table mates think that Donald Trump is corrupt? I don't know. I don't—there is a very strong case that they make and have made on air that, well, he was a businessman, so this isn't like a politician making money. There's a lot of animus towards— That even stuns me, yeah. There's a lot of animus towards politicians that get rich. You told us you were a public servant.