Min Jin Lee on “American Hagwon,” Her First Novel After the Phenomenon of “Pachinko”

0:01This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it at Progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

0:22The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC and The New Yorker.

0:33This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Now, some authors publish a book every year or every couple of years, and then there are those who disappear, like cicadas, buried underground for a long period of time, cultivating the work, and then they prepare to reemerge. Min Jin Lee is one of those writers. Once a corporate lawyer, she quit her job and spent more than 10 years working on her debut novel. free food for millionaires. And a decade went by before we read Pachinko, a historical epic and truly a phenomenon that was translated into some 35 languages. And now, after nearly another decade, we finally have a chance to read Min Jin Lee's third book, American Hagwon.

1:20It follows a Korean family as they move from Seoul to Sydney, Australia, to Southern California, all in pursuit of a better life and the best possible education for the kids. Min, tell me about arriving in the United States. I think you were seven years old. Mm-hmm. What was your English like when you were seven years old and you arrived here? Zero, zero. And you arrived where in half? Fifty years ago. Is it really? Yeah, 50, yeah. I'm 57. And what do you remember of those years? What do you remember of that initial landing here, seeing America, hearing English rushing at you, and how quickly did you adapt?

1:59Oh, I was so disappointed. And I can tell you why. Because in Korea, my mother had this set of Grimm's fairy tales that she bought. And I read them as a kid. And I thought that America would be like Cinderella. It's not, is it? No. So I get off the plane. I'm kind of expecting ball gowns and castles and white horses and carriages. But it looks just like Seoul, except with not Korean people. Yeah. And I didn't even have the words, not English or Korean, to even just say, I was misled. So that was really shocking. And where did you find yourself right away? Where did you move to? What was life like right away?

2:41Oh, well, my Uncle John invited us. So he was a software engineer at IBM. So he was able to sponsor our immigration. And he went to college at a school in Missouri. So he's been in America for a long time. He passed away, I'm sorry, during COVID. So we get to his house in Elmhurst, Queens, and he's renting a, I think it was a two-bedroom apartment on the second floor of some schlubby house. And we get there, and there's five of us, and there's four of them, and we're in the living room. And I think our aunt was not happy. You know, she's passed away. She was not happy that all of a sudden her husband's sister's family is parked in the living room.

3:25And as a kid, I kind of thought it was an adventure, but it was really— And you didn't know it was for reals, that it was permanent? I couldn't believe there were no white horses and carriages in Prince Charlie. I was still like in that. My wife's grandmother came to this country from Poland. Yeah. And she arrived, and there was a parade. And she thought the parade—she was a little girl, too. She thought the parade was for her arriving in America. It was St. Patrick's Day. Yeah. Yeah. That would have been me. Yeah. No, because I really kind of thought it would be different. And then, of course, my uncle made it better because he bought this giant vat of bananas.

4:05And in Korea at the time, bananas were so expensive. Yeah. And they're really tiny. They're from Jeju. But here, they're just these giant things from Ecuador. Yeah. And he said, you can have as many as you like. So you just ate bananas. And how quickly did you also learn to speak English and to read English? I think reading took me almost no time at all. But the speaking took me years. Not because I couldn't do it, but because I really couldn't talk to people. I've taken so many classes, David, to sit here with you. Really? Why would speaking take so much longer than reading? Well, I couldn't speak in Korea either, really.

4:42How do you mean? I couldn't talk. This is verifiable. I just really couldn't talk to anybody. I talked a little bit at home, but even then, not that much. Were your parents worried about you? I think so, but they had two others who were fine. But did they consider you like a little kid genius too? No, they thought I was slow. Because when I came to America in 1976 in Queens, in public school, you had accelerated, normal, and slow. And I was in the slow class. You were in the slow lane. For two years. But both my sisters, we came at the same time. They were in the fast immediately. Right. So they tested immediately into the fast kids.

5:26And I was in the slow for two years. And then because I didn't talk in Korea or here, my parents just thought, well, you know, we don't expect that much from her. How did you become you? In other words, how did you become the little girl who's not speaking very well, but reading in English pretty quickly, and does well in school and eventually, and starts marching through the achievement ladder, and you're a corporate lawyer for a couple of years, and then you throw it all away, and you start making up stories. Well, I quit being a lawyer in 95, so two years of practicing corporate law, and I quit because...

6:05Because you hated it? No, no, no, I really liked it. And also, I really love lawyers. That's not a popular opinion. I want to hear all about that. I have so many friends who are lawyers, especially litigators, are so fun to talk to. Because? Oh, I don't have to talk. I just have to ask questions. And they just have all these yarns because they're very extroverted and they like to argue. So in a way, they're very good at teaching you how to talk. So I was a really good grunt. And so, like, if you were my partner and I was your first-year associate, I was the kid that you would just say, go to that basement and read all the boxes and give me a 10-page memo.

6:44And I would be like, okay, David. Like, that was me. So you're that second person at the table in all those movies. Yes. You could be making right now what my father used to call big money. Big money. Big money. Stupid money. And why did you decide, you know what? I'm going to make up a story for a living. I knew that if I had worked that hard and unless I took – and also I didn't have therapy. I didn't know how to tell people, oh, by the way, I should take some time off. But you quit. You just quit. It's not like you had a novel in the drawer. No, I had no novel in the drawer. So what was it like to quit and then the next day you don't have that job and then you're sitting at a desk and it takes you quite a while to write that first book?

7:23Only 12 years. Yeah. Yeah, only 12 years. Free Food for Millionaires took 12 years and it's a terrific book. Thank you. But that's a long time. How do you teach yourself to be a novelist? You have to write bad novels. How many did you write? Two. You wrote two complete bad novels, and you had this discipline to shelve them, or an agent told you, keep this in a drawer? No, the first one, all of New York said, we will not be publishing this. What was that first novel that we'll never see? Revival of the Senses. It was so pretentious. So Free Food for Millionaires became my first novel that I published, but it was the third novel that I wrote.

7:57But unlike, I think, a lot of novelists, what's clear that goes into your books is a hell of a lot of research. Oh, yeah. I mean, that's not thick on the ground. You know, there's some research some people do or they'll read up on something. But the way I read you is it's clear that you've spent hundreds and hundreds of hours on reading, traveling, talking to other people. Tell me about that process. I love research. And then after I do all the research, I love sitting and imagining it as to what the truth is. And, I mean, you know, like when I do a lot of interviews, not everybody tells the truth.

8:38So then what I have to do is fact check them, and I do that in my own little way. So if I was with a plumber, let's say, for two days, and I've done stuff like that, and I follow the plumber and I try to figure out, well, what makes a person do this job and why is he so good at what he does? And then he might tell me stories. And then I might go and figure out where the school is where he became a plumber to see, is it true what he said about three years versus two years? And that level of research is great because the contradictions are where you find plot. So how does the research work for this third book, American Heg One, which is that you regard as a trilogy, a completed trilogy?

9:17It is a completed trilogy, but I've actually decided to do a quartet of writing diaspora. There's a novel that I've always wanted to write, so I'm going to write Marshall Plan, which is my fourth book. It's not a trilogy in the conventional sense. No. They're recurring characters and plot lines that pick up. They're not related. How do you regard it as a trilogy soon to become a quartet? It's related by the theme of diaspora. So I'm obsessed with diaspora. I think it's a permanent condition. I think it's going to be only ongoing and increasing throughout the world. I think borders are disappearing.

9:47And also the thing that I think most Americans don't like to think about is the fact that actually we are having environmental diaspora within America now where you don't have water, right? Or you might have educational diaspora where you feel like I cannot get an education here. And obviously economic diaspora where these jobs don't exist anymore. And instead of thinking about you being that person, we have this idea that diaspora relates to these, you know, unwanted people who are just sort of scattered in the world. So I think that I have to write about diaspora. So that theme, as you might imagine, we know each other a little bit, has been mother's milk for my fiction reading of a particular kind, right?

10:27Jewish American, Bellow, Roth, Ozick. Chabon. Michael Chabon and Next Generation, and on and on and on. And its relation to biblical history, it has linguistic diasporic aspects to it. What is particular about it for you and for a Korean-American writer? Well, I think that I'm glad you brought up the diaspora of the Jewish people because that is actually where we understand the term from. It's a Greek word from the Bible, and it's about initially the Jewish people who were scattered and dispersed. And I think – and they were forcibly done so. What I find really interesting is that people keep thinking about these unwashed people coming and showing up somewhere, how terrifying that is.

11:15What I really want to question and upset the idea is to show how much not only do they change, not only do you and I become assimilated, but actually how do we assimilate others? I know that when I go somewhere, I am changing the molecules in the air in the way that I'm being changed. Particularly when you're with non-Korean people. Yes. It's my job to make everybody Korean, David. I'm feeling it right now. Good. I think Koreans are awesome. I want you to be Korean. I'm halfway there. Now, just saying that, tell me what a hagwon is, because this is at the center of the novel. It's a very, it feels like a familiar institution almost.

12:02Well, the first one in America is really invented by a Jewish American. So, a hagwon is a learning center. It's where you pay money. And in Korea, it's called shadow education because it literally tracks most schools. But a hagwon in Korea could be for anything. Like you can have a piano hagwon. You can have a ballet hagwon. You can have a Model UN hagwon. If you want to pass a civil service exam, you go to hagwon because they have all the exams there. And in America, the hagwons that we would be familiar with is like Kaplan, Princeton Review, Akumon. Those are very simple ones. For SATs. For SATs.

12:42Yeah. Or you can have Barbary for lawyers, and they'll have ones for MCATs. They have all the different hagwons in America. And did you attend these as a kid? I didn't attend the ones that are, like, Korean ones, because there are Korean hagwons. My mother doesn't believe in them. Really? Yeah. She really is kind of puzzled by the fact that people go to them. Why? Well, she's a piano teacher. Well, she was a piano teacher. And her attitude is you can't make kids study. You can't. She's like, you cannot. So there were such schools around in Queens, but you didn't partake. No. Well, one, we didn't have money.

13:20And two, my mother doesn't believe in them. And her whole attitude is if she doesn't figure this out, that's really her problem. Really? That's pretty mean. Not mean, but tough. Yes. Yes, it's very – it's kind of like this very – my mother's very – she's so funny because she's very laissez-faire. Yeah? Like her – one of her favorite expressions in Korean is – well, and I'll just translate it in English, which is, I guess she'll figure it out. And in some ways it kind of like gives you an out of responsibility. There's – early in the novel, the mother puts an envelope filled with cash in her daughter's teacher's bag.

14:04the teacher makes it clear that he expects this money if i remember correctly right it's a silent extortion that's treated as a common occurrence was that something you heard about in research is that kind of detail that actually happened to me oh i want to hear all about that so um as a kid i got hit almost exactly like in chapter one so but it wasn't with the math mistake my problem was that I finished my worksheet, and I was sitting in the back because I'm really tall. And I was kind of wandering because I think I'm a little, there's something off about the way I learn. And I was a very dreamy kid.

14:42So I sat in the back, and after I finished my worksheet, I thought I was done. And I kind of walked back and forth by myself. I was six years old. The teacher calls me up. So you're in first grade or kindergarten? I guess first grade, yeah. So the teacher calls me up, and she says, like, hold out your hands. So I hold out my hands. I'm thinking I'm going to get something. Like a present. And then she does thwack and she hit my hands in front of everybody several times. And I was so stunned because— This is in a regular old school. Yeah, public school. Wow. Yeah. And then I didn't even tell my parents.

15:19And I was little. And also because I didn't know how to talk, I didn't know what to do. But anyway, I didn't tell my parents. She calls my mother and says, your daughter has behavioral issues. But then my mother told me, I kid you not, when I was like 49, because this entire time I'm thinking this is my fault because I'm goofy. She tells me, no, she came to the house because she wanted money. And she's whacking you for it. Yeah. Sounds like the mob. Yeah. Now, you've said that the opening line of Pachinko is your, I don't know, thesis statement about so much. All my books. And the line is, history has failed us, but no matter.

16:02What do you mean by that? Oh, well, I think history has failed almost all ordinary people. We have no idea what happens to ordinary people. We have the history of rulers, winners, and losers. But the average person and how they cope is something that we're just missing, that information. So unless you look for, like, war diaries or memoirs, you're really not going to know what happened. Do you feel that your project is to correct that in some way? Yes, I think so. I mean, I want to, but also it can't be just telling the truth. It has to be really interesting. Like it has to really make you want to keep turning the pages.

16:41That's very important. The opening line of the new novel is the rules of engagement have changed already. Yeah. Tell me about that. Yeah. Well, I think the reason why the modern person in advanced economies is feeling so horrible and anxious is because the roles of engagement have changed already. Not that they've changed. Explain what you mean. Not that they'll keep changing, but they've already changed, which means that we're on the back foot. Like, clear example, AI. We did not see it coming. We actually don't know what's going to happen. And almost all of us are terrified. And we still have to get up in the morning, go to work, wonder if work will exist tomorrow, and raise children.

17:24It's very hard because of roles of engagement, decency, truth-telling, all of it has changed already. And somehow we have to function, which goes back to my second thesis from Pachinko, history has failed us. But no matter, a part of me is saying we have to be defiant. Novelist Minjin Lee. More in a moment.

17:54WNYC Studios is supported by Quince. I'm New Yorker cartoonist and number one fan of autumn, Jason Adam Katzenstein. As New York gets its five actually perfect weather days, it's important to have that comfortable sweater that goes with everything and a shirt that looks great under a light jacket. Really all the pieces that make getting dressed easy. And that's what Quince does best. Quince makes premium pants, fitted tees and polos, and breathable activewear. Quality basics designed to work across your wardrobe. Essentials with style. I'm about to rock the Quince denim chore jacket all autumn long.

18:31Every afternoon when I take my pup out for a walk in the park, I'm wearing that chore jacket. I love the color, I love the way it looks, and I love the way it feels. And I've been getting a lot of compliments, and I feel great. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com slash radio hour. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. That's quince.com slash radio hour. WNYC Studios is supported by Wayfair. I'm New Yorker cartoonist Jason Adam Katzenstein, and I'm here to tell you that it is not a chic Brooklyn one-bedroom artist's apartment without a stylish rug.

19:16My Parthenia Red Area Rug is from Wayfair. It's stylish, it's cozy, it's perfect for early autumn evenings when I want to have a few friends over and accept all the compliments about my decor. I can personally attest that Wayfair helps you turn your apartment into a home. At Wayfair, you can shop thousands of products across every style and budget. There are more than 20 million verified five-star reviews to help you buy with confidence. Plus, Wayfair Rewards members get 5 % back on every purchase. Transform your space with pieces that hold up to real life. Join Wayfair Rewards today and get 5 % back on every purchase.

19:56Head to Wayfair.com or shop the Wayfair app for all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R dot com. Way fair, every style, every home. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported by Mint Mobile. There are things in life that you don't want to be transparent, like your swimsuit or your search history. But when it comes to your wireless bill, transparency is everything. That's why Mint Mobile's wireless plans have no gimmicks and no gotchas, just high-speed data and reliable coverage on the T-Mobile 5G network. And right now, all plans are$15 per month, even unlimited. Choose from 3, 6, or 12-month plans and say goodbye to a monthly bill.

20:37You can even bring your current phone and your number. To get your new wireless plan for just$15 a month, go to mintmobile.com slash nyradiohour. That's mintmobile.com slash nyradiohour. Cut your wireless bill to$15 a month at mintmobile.com slash nyradiohour. That's it. There's no catch. Upfront payment of$45 for three months,$90 for six months, or$180 for 12 months. Plan required,$15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only. Greater than 50 GB may slow when network is busy. Includes up to 20 GB hotspot. Capable device required. Availability, speed, and coverage varies.

21:24See mintmobile.com. I'm Emily Flake, cartoonist at The New Yorker. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported by Bombas. It's finally cozy season, my favorite time of year. That means crisp mornings, fresh cool air, and dressing in layers. Bombas makes your comfiest fall staples, so you can make the most out of this glorious time. I love the feeling of opening my sock drawer and seeing all my Bombas and knowing there's a perfect pair for wherever I'm going that day. And it's not just socks. Bombas makes t-shirts, camis, and even underwear, so your first layer can be your most comfortable. They've even got slippers if you just want to stay cozy at home.

22:02And the best part about Bombas? For every item you purchase, they donate an essential clothing item to someone facing housing insecurity. One purchased equals one donated, with over 200 million donations and counting. Head over to bombas.com slash radio hour and use code radio hour for 20 % off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash radio hour. Code radio hour at checkout.

22:30What's your version in your own life as an artist and as a human being of defiance? We can't all do everything. What is your role in that defiance? I do a lot of things behind the scenes. Tell me. I do things also public-facing. I get really upset when I hear things are unfair. And I will pick up a phone and say, this is what I heard. Is this true? Give me an example. Without getting people in trouble.

23:02Like when a kid doesn't get a job. And I don't think it's fair. And I'll argue, well, no, just because he doesn't have these connections doesn't mean that you can't give him a shot. So there's a little bit of that. And I get very like, ugh, about it. And I think part of that's also just because I feel like I wanted that. I wanted that sort of patronage, which I never had. and also the accuracy. And again, what else do I do? I'll go on record on things. Politically. Yes, I have. Yeah. Which has gotten me in trouble. How so? Where have you gotten in trouble?

23:46Well, I was a member of the inauguration committee for Mayor Malandani. And some people just didn't like that. And I thought, actually, he's our mayor. He was voted in by an overwhelming majority. And he's as qualified or more qualified than other people. What possible trouble could that bring you? I think people imputed whatever they didn't like about Mayor Mom Donnie onto me. I see. And I thought that that was really limited. And I also said, you know, there are very few artists who are invited to be on the inauguration committee. So part of what I'm doing is representing other artists. And I see it that way because I do advocacy for other writers.

24:30But it's very hard to convince people who just want to see what they want to see. I sometimes think about your novels, which I really adore, that there's a 19th century quality to what you're doing. In other words, there's this kind of – there's the research aspect of it, which is kind of Dickensian. There's the raw storytelling, commodious bigness of these novels. These are not hyper, you know, slivers of novels, but a hyper-intellectual – it's not Ben Lerner, which is an entirely different approach to the novel. And yet there's a big moral dimension imputed in each of these novels. Am I reading you wrong in terms of your intent?

25:12No, I mean, that's exactly what I want. I want to write social novels of the highest order. That's what I really want because there are so many things that I'm upset about. But I have to get you to sit with me and be immersed for, I don't know, 15, 20 hours. And then— That's longer than The Odyssey. Much longer. But he was doing it in verse. I was thinking movies. There's that too. I want to do social novels, and I want to argue against things, and I really believe that morality matters. I do. And why is the novel a good vehicle for moral argument? Because I think readers are willing to become the characters in dramatic tension.