Spike Lee and Denzel Washington on a Reunion Making “Highest 2 Lowest”

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1:34This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Spike Lee and Denzel Washington first worked together in 1990. They were relatively early in their careers, and the movie was More Better Blues. Washington starred as a trumpet player, scrambling to make a living in jazz clubs, and Lee played his manager. Gee, you're doing a half-assed job, man. You okay the deal. You told me to get you in the dog, and I did. I got you the best turns possible at the time. You understand if you do it on the back end, down the line.

2:13Well, this is down the line. And I'm working on it. Well, you ain't working hard enough. I think you're taking advantage of me. How can you say that? We grew up together. I'd rather chop off my left hand and take advantage of you. You're my boy. Look, this is about more than friendship, G. I'm breaking my friggin' neck for you. Does it look like I'm rich? Somebody's been talking to you. Washington and Lee, actor and director, have collaborated with some frequency. Malcolm X and many other films. But Inside Man, the last film together, was almost two decades ago. So highest to lowest is kind of a reunion.

2:47Washington plays a music mogul targeted in a kidnapping and ransom plot. And the film is inspired by Akira Kurosawa's film High and Low from 1963. Last week, I had a chance to talk with Spike Lee and Denzel Washington. Spike, we spoke a couple of years ago, and you were telling me that for She's Gotta Have It, you borrowed from Kurosawa's Rashomon, the way different perspectives complicate the narrative and so on. And why did you go to high and low as kind of source material and inspiration for the new movie? Well, first of all, I got asked to do it, but my brother right here, Denzel Washington, that's how this whole thing happened.

3:30It was a gift given me by Mr. Washington. We had not worked, our last film we worked before that was Inside Man, which was like, how many years? 19. 19 years before. But here's the thing, though. I was amazed when I was told that number because time flies. And I just never thought. I did not know that it had been that long. I had hoped that I'd work with Denzel again because Inside Man was our most profitable. It is called show business. I've heard that. I've heard that. And another thing I like to say is like, we'd have to, we'd learn how we work together. Really? No. It was like the next day, you know, we had that relationship.

4:19And so I know I'm using the word blessing a lot, but I'm going to say it again. It was a blessing. I've read your long list of best films. And Kurosawa is one of the directors that really stands out there for multiple films on it. And these are things that you've loved since being at NYU. why high and low the story essentially a business story amazingly about the shoe business in Kurosawa we made an adjustment with that I saw that it's about this film to me is about morals and what someone will do and won't do and I believe when this film opens August 15th Friday. Go and see the movies. See it in the theaters.

5:06Don't see it in your house. I would, I know that they will put themselves in the place. The character that David King is. They will ask themselves if you were in this situation would you pay the ransom? Would you pay, how much would you pay? I think the audience is going to put themselves in that situation. Denzel, have you ever said no to Spike Lee when he's trying to cast you? Never tried to cast me. How do you mean? We don't work for each other. So how does it work? In this case, the script came to me first. I knew this was a story that Spike, I hoped that Spike would be interested in. So I called him up.

5:55He said, send it to me. He read it. He said, let's make it. And here we are. Here we are. Quick as all that. It was that simple. Yeah. But Denzel Washington is Denzel Washington. And there are certain figures in this industry that... And we made almost a quarter of a billion dollars on the last picture we did together. So it was good business. You know, it's not rocket science. You're talking inside man. Yes, exactly. Now, over time, there have been lots of, well, a fair number of directors and actors who have had long associations. In fact, Kurosawa had one with Toshiro Mofune and De Niro has one with Scorsese, Hitchcock and Jimmy Stewart.

6:38Tell me a little bit about... Jimmy Lomit and Al Pacino. That's right. Tell me about working together for the first time and how that relationship has evolved. I sent Denzel the script and that was it. When I started acting, two or three actors that I followed, De Niro, Hoffman, Pacino, the filmmakers that made those films never called me. I was never asked to be in any of their films. So when Spike called me, we developed a relationship and we made our own films. So when I was in a position to return a favor to Spike that he started by calling me with Mo Better, I said, hey, I'm calling the guy who called me and who can tell the New York story as well as any of the other New York storytellers.

7:31Did you feel iced out by those directors? I don't care. I don't care. Worked out all right. it did but i hear something in your voice that's you hear god in my voice i fear god not man i could care man i could care less what man thinks about what i've done or about what i'm doing so wherever i go from this day forward you remember that god is leading me not the industry not Apple, not interviews, not interviewers, not Spike Lee, not this world. I'm being led by the Almighty. And that's what's most important to me. What sense do you make of where God is leading you as an artist? Toward what end?

8:23To fulfill what goals. To lead more souls to our Heavenly Father. That's what I'm here for. As a human being and as an artist. As a human being and as a human being. The platform is film, but that's not the purpose for me personally. How has collaborating changed as your careers have grown? I've become a better director working with Mr. Denzel Washington. What he does, there's a scene in this film, a scene where Jeffrey Wright is really begging, his character is on his knees, begging Denzel's character to pay this ransom, $17.5 million. dollars. And it's really a scene where it's heartbreaking.

9:26And at the end of the scene, Denzel picked up a grenade which is a prop. That is not in the script. He grabbed his grenade and said, you know, sometimes I feel like blowing this motherfucker out. It's not about just what's on the script. it has to be deeper than that it has to be deeper than that how much do you discuss when did you see that grenade when did you see the grenade I don't even remember you don't remember that moment Denzel I remember picking it up yeah how much do you discuss scenes ahead of time and how much do you leave it to chance in improvisation I mean what we do is that we have a reading before that we're auditioning it's a lot of times we audition actors we see there's something we don't have to fix this part in the script because up to that point we haven't heard the lines read there's 100 % I gotta tell young filmmakers reading the script is not the same as hearing the words that are written it is day and night and so over my career, I've had to do a lot of rewriting during auditions because it was written.

10:49I'm talking about stuff that I wrote too. And so when Dennis and I auditioned to people, we'll both say, you know, we've got to change that line. It's the process. And then Spike hired great actors. He hired great actors because I know if we got, don't get mad, we got Jordan here. We're not going to have some okey-dokes around him. You got to have a Pippin. Horace Bratton, you know, you got to have surround. A team. A team, there you go. A team. Somebody that knocked me out as an actor in this is A$AP Rocky. King David, now ain't this something. Sorry? I got your full attention now, huh? You finally listening to me.

11:40Yeah, I'm listening. Good. You know you got the wrong boy, right? Yeah, so I've heard. And I also learned you can never trust the help. But luckily for me, it was never about the boy. It was always about you. Well, fair enough. But if it's about me, then you can't expect me to pay$17.5 million for somebody else's son if it's about me. Well, then his blood is gonna be on your hands, then. How you want it? No, man, come on now. This ain't no fucking negotiation. This is a day of reckoning. You're not God no more than I am. All right, listen. God give you everything you want, right? No, God give you everything you need.

12:15So the question is, what do you need? How can I help you? I ain't saying I'm God, but I could help. And there's one scene where they're separated by a panel of glass. It's an amazing scene. And it's shot with the two characters in profile with this prism effect representing the glass between them. Spike, talk a little bit about that just as a piece of filmmaking and the technical side of it and the imaginary side of it. Yeah, we had to go to that. That's from the original. I mean, that's one of the highlights of a tourist artist film, High and Low. And I always shoot with two cameras. I always shoot with two cameras.

12:55And I've never done this before. So we have Denzel and Aseraki, as you said, separated by glass. And they're the profile. And so what we did, we had two dollies that were attached. So they'll move at the same exact time. Oh, the two dollies were attached? Yeah, they were attached. I've never done that before. And they were like they were on either side of what was supposed to be the glass? Yeah, we had two cameras on. Like the glass is right here. In the middle. Okay. In the middle. I mean you had another scene before that And recorded the studio Which Turned into a rap battle Here's the thing I'm going to tell this to you Again My brother surprised me Because it wasn't the script So we're going in You improvised the rap battle?

13:53Well it was It was badly written So D He kills. He comes out with now it's just elematic. I'm going to be pissing in the elevator. The rap game reminds me of the crap game used to support ballets. And I got to give credit to ASF Rocky because he was there right with it. So even though it wasn't scripted, he was ready. And then finally, the line says, what is this, a rap battle? I didn't know that was going to happen ASAP when ASAP was rolling with it and it lifted that scene too which is why I call Spike trust I trust Spike completely I didn't even know the way he was shooting it I'm learning today because I wasn't there for that he was handling that we were battling we had that over five years over five films and whatever amount of years it's been that shorthand and I completely 1000 % trust Spike and I do what I I do my part and he does the rest.

15:04And I would like to say you know I trust my brother. Here's the thing though David isn't that I mean we work together it's not a lot of discussion. It's like, it's this relationship we built up for how many years? Over five films that you say, we could say, that's Scorsese and De Niro. That's the great C. Lument. Marty's great too, but C. Lument and Al Pacino and there's Francis with Rando in The Godfather and the apocalypse now. And when you have that, it's like a great band. We're all playing the same parts, but it's not something that's discussed. It's a feeling.

15:59It takes over time. It's very rare you're going to have that from the jump. That's just... 35-year overnight sensations.

16:16So it's hard to explain. I know people might think it's some type of magic or voodoo, whatever you want to call it, but it's being human beings. That's the best way I can explain that. I was going to say, and like those other relationships, Scorsese and the other filmmakers and actors that he talked about, those films were in the theaters. So I would ask all of my followers and Spike Lee's followers to follow us to the theater on Friday. The movie opens Friday, August 15th. Here's the thing, though. Again, I know it might be more convenient to sit home and live on your big, big-ass TV. But it's not the same experience as going to a theater.

17:07I remember going to the Ziegfeld I love going to the Ziegfeld what I saw and it's a shame it's a ballroom now but when a big film came out you went to the Ziegfeld and the theater is packed and there's energy and there's nothing like it it's a great sport event too but to go to a packed theater I remember seeing Jaws alien, close encounter. I mean, like, I waited two hours in the freezing cold to see the Exorcist. Remember the Paramount Theater? I do. It was being called the circle. You had to go down. I saw the Exorcist there. Two hours. Must have been two degrees. People were screaming. You could hear people vomiting.

17:59You can't get that at home. Hey, so go to the theater Friday and vomit. You need everybody Friday. Go to your local theater and throw up. No, don't throw up to somebody else. Don't blow yourself. Yeah. I'm speaking with Spike Lee and Denzel Washington. More in a moment.

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23:18Denzel, I spoke a while back to Judi Dench, and like you, she's spent a lot of time performing Shakespeare, and she told me something really surprising and interesting. She said that playing a role like M in the James Bond movies was as hard for her as being on stage in a Shakespeare tragedy. What do you think? No, Shakespeare plays much harder. Tell me why. For the actor? Well, because iambic pentameter to begin with. Her father loved me, often invited me, still questioned me the story of my life from year to year, the battle, sieges, fortunes that I have passed. I ran it through even for my boyish days at the very moment he bad me tell it.

23:55When I speak of most disastrous chances of moving accidents by flood and field of hairbread scapes, naming a deadly breach of being taken by the insulin foe and sold to slavery, that's harder than yo.

24:08But also, film, you stop and start. You don't have that on the stage. but that's what Judy that's what she thought right? She did Spike I came back from the screening of this movie and I told a friend of mine who works here who's a musician that one of the great parts of the movie was the chase scene and it's propelled by the Puerto Rican Day Parade music of Eddie Palmieri and the salsa orchestra oh it's fantastic and then as I was telling him this Eddie Palmieri probably died that's very same day because the next day I read his obituary. Huge loss, big loss for the culture, for the world, for the world.

24:51But that's something you've, forever, you think a lot about is the propulsion of these movies through music and through... Driven by the music. Tell me about thinking about that and conceiving that for a movie to make it move. It's a very, it's two words, three words. The French connection.

25:20Hold on! The chase scene. That scene is from the French Connection. When you say that, though, what do you mean? The style of it? Yeah, I mean, the whole, first of all, the big scene in High and Low is the scene where they have to dump the money. because I really had this show that young Delon was not just some dog, he's smart look NYPD they're going to catch your ass so he's thinking how am I going to orchestrate how can I orchestrate this drop of 17.5 million Swiss francs and a Michael Jordan Jumpman black backpack and not be caught.

26:16So, looks at the calendar. Oh, the hated Boston Redside is going to be at Yankee Stadium. That was cold. It's still the afternoon game. This is why I called him, Spike. That was cold. So, that's not enough. So, number four train, the last stop. Jerome Avenue line. is 161st Yankee Stadium. So what happens on a Sunday every year? Puerto Rican Day Parade.

26:51So right away, I'm going, I went to the Blue Note to see Eddie Palveri. And I told him, you got to do it. He said, good. I said, Eddie, word can't get out. It has to be surprised. This has to be on the low, on the low. So in post-production, I need another song he said okay I got you Spike he said I need another song and the title is I'm alone you said he performed the song thank you G also that was not the playback we did seven six seven takes so every time we did it they performed it live from beginning to end then we have Anthony Rainbows and Rosie Merez two famous Boricua Boricua Boricua Boricua Boricua Boricua Boricua Boricua Boricua No, you say Boricua Boricua Boricua Boricua That's not it But keep going And then we recruited as many Boricua as we could find in the Bronx Puerto Rican ladies Yeah, I got it There being the crowd we hand out the Puerto Rican flags So it was a joyous, joyous day.