GAYLE PALMER Part 4 of 7: I Hate This Place

0:00You may have heard of the sex cult NXIVM and the famous actress who went to prison for her involvement, Alison Mack. But she's never told her side of the story, until now. People assume that I'm like this pervert. My name is Natalie Robamed, and in my new podcast, I talk to Alison to try to understand how she went from TV actor to cult member, and what she thinks of it all now. How do you feel about having been involved in bringing sexual trauma to other people? I mean, I don't even know how to answer that question. Alison, after NXIVM from CBC's Uncover, is available now, wherever you get your podcasts.

0:33This podcast contains disturbing content. Please take care while listening. Kathy Sutton had been struggling to figure out the truth of what happened to her daughter Michelle at Summit Quest. Michelle's death certificate said that she died of dehydration due to exposure. But Gail Palmer continued to insist that that was incorrect, that Michelle had wanted to die. But then, in an incredible turn of events, Kathy was given a copy of Michelle's journal from her time at Summit Quest. Kathy now had access to words Michelle wrote in her final days. She didn't need Gail's story anymore. She had Michelle's.

1:15Here's Kathy reading one of Michelle's journal entries. I hate this place. I hate this place. I hate this place. I hate this place. I hate this place. I hate this place. I hate this place because it sucks. Michelle wrote in her journal every day that she was at Summit Quest, starting with day one, May 1st. On May 4th, she wrote, I hate this place. I want to go home 33 times in a row. And then she wrote, I hate this place, with an exclamation mark, 48 more times. She wrote that she was badly sunburned, had bled through her underwear, but was made to keep wearing them. and that she was hungry and feeling sick.

2:00She wrote, I want to go home. I came here to get away from the guy that raped me. My mom left the decision up to me if I were to come or not. I want to get away from here and go back to my family. My life is more screwed up here than it was back in P-Town. I want to talk to my mom and have her get me out of here. Until then, I will not do anything. You can drag me, beat me, insult me, whatever you want, but I won't do anymore. This whole place is a bunch of bull. If I even had the kind of problems you are all talking about, this wouldn't be the way to solve them. I want to go home. Reading those words was devastating to Kathy.

2:41Kathy realized that Gail lied to her about nearly every aspect of Michelle's time at Summit Quest. When Kathy found out what really happened to her daughter, she wanted to expose Gail and Summit Quest to the world. Here she is on a show called Investigative Reports on an episode about wilderness therapy. This was no accident. A child crying for help, writing in her journal, stating her sickness, and being told this all in her head, and that she's a faker and a manipulator, and doing this to herself. I don't call that an accident. I call that a preventable death. During my first conversation with Kathy, she mentioned someone named Mandy, a young woman who was in Michelle's same session at Summit Quest.

3:30It took me a few weeks, but I finally tracked her down on Facebook. She goes by Amanda now. Amanda wrote me back pretty quickly, but it would be almost six months before she agreed to an interview. She said it finally felt like the right time to tell her story. She's been living with those memories for over 30 years now. The day of her death, I have so burned in my memory that I literally went and had reverse hypnotism done because I couldn't go to sleep at night. I would see what we saw that day over and over and over every time I closed my eyes. No, that day, I'll never forget it. Michelle's journal offers a lot of insight into her mental state leading up to her death and how she was treated.

4:17But only someone who witnessed Michelle's death and survived could tell me what really happened. And that would be Amanda DeRose. From Cast Media, this is The Opportunist. This is Season 7, Episode 4. Gail Palmer. I hate this place. I'm Hannah Smith.

5:05Thank you.

5:17Just like Michelle Sutton, Amanda DeRose grew up in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or the Mormon Church. She was the youngest of three girls, and as she got into her teenage years, Amanda started to have what her parents perceived as an attitude problem, a rebellious streak, something that Amanda doesn't deny. But now, as an adult, she attributes that to sexual abuse she suffered from ages 5 to 11, abuse that she hid from her parents for fear of how her abuser might retaliate. I believe that is the reason that my parents later felt like my attitude had changed and, oh, it must be drugs because, you know, that's what the community would say.

5:58And I was a very LDS community. The parents feel that, like, you know, the misgivings of the children reflect on them directly. So it's almost like, let's try to hide that away. So when they started sensing this attitude I had, they were like, well, it must be drugs. Amanda tried to tell her parents that no, she was not using drugs. But they didn't believe her. Instead, they doubled down, isolating Amanda from her friends. I'm like, I'm not on drugs. You can test me, whatever. And they're, oh, no, we know you are. So my mom and dad at that point, this is when I was about roughly 15, they just started to get really strict.

6:39You know, like you're not going out, you're grounded every day, we'll choose who you talk to, we'll choose who you date. And I just, I finally had just had it. And I ran away from home. Amanda couldn't take it anymore. In the fall of 1989, she ran away from home and was gone for about nine months. Her parents hired private investigators to find her and bring her home. But Amanda just ran away again. Then, in May of 1990, Amanda got word that her grandfather was dying. She wanted to see him. So she called her parents and agreed to meet them so that they could take her to Springville, Utah, where she could visit her grandfather.

7:19On the way back, Amanda's mom suggested they meet her father for lunch in Provo. And I said, no, mom, I don't want to go. I need to get back. I've got work. And, you know, I just immediately started feeling sick in my stomach. What does she have planned? Something's going on here. You know, she was acting so secretive. So anyway, we get to Provo, to Sizzler. And all of a sudden, four or five of these really big, I think they were like football players that they had at the BYU or whatever. They hired them. They walked into Sizzler. And this still trips me out to this day. No one did anything. They pick me up and they carry me out of the sizzler.

7:56I'm screaming and kicking and fighting and yelling. And what is going on? Amanda didn't know it yet, but her parents had hired a youth transport service to take her to Summit Quest, the same way Tamira's parents had to take them to Challenger. All these years later, what seemed to stick out the most to Amanda about this experience is how no one in the restaurant did anything. They all just watched. Everyone just stood there. They don't know who I am. They don't know who those guys are. They threw me into a van. The van was headed to St. George, Utah, about a four-hour drive. But to Amanda, it felt like forever.

8:33We passed through St. George and we go out into the middle of nowhere. And they had this, like, you know, makeshift shop type thing set up that was more like a storage shed or something like that. And at this point, it's me and the two men that had driven me. and then there was a man named Murdoch that was back at this shelter. And he was the one that was like in charge of health counselors. His name is Dennis Murdoch, but Amanda and others told me he went by Mad Dog Murdoch. He was an ex-Marine. He was a total dick. Just mean, get in your face, you know, yelling at you, degrading you, bringing you down.

9:10So they tell me you have to strip, strip all your clothes off. Now here's a 16-year-old rape victim, terrified. I'm in the middle of nowhere. No one seemed to care that I was kidnapped. I have still no clue what is happening. No one would answer any question I had. So they tell me, you got to strip all your clothes off. This could be traumatizing for anyone. But as a survivor of sexual abuse, this was particularly terrifying for Amanda. She had no idea where she was or what would be done to her. And I just remember just sobbing. So I stripped down to my bra and my underwear. And they throw some clothes at me and said, you know, put these on.

9:47And then they, so I put on my shorts and a t-shirt. I got a pair of hiking shoes and a pair of socks. We all had, you know, basically the same type outfit. So then they put me back in the van and we drove, again, a really long amount of time. But at this point it's night, so I can't see where we're going. You know, it's just there is literally no lights anywhere to be seen. As they drove through the pitch black darkness further and further from town, Amanda couldn't help but think about her parents. How could they have done this to her? I mean, I wasn't a perfect kid. You know, I drank, I smoked some pot.

10:24I tried LSD one time when I was a runaway. I understand that like my parents felt scared and compelled to do something, right? But it's still like, I'm like, I hadn't done anything that bad. I'm still trying to like, what the hell is going on? Why would I be subjected to this? I mean, to strip in front of total strangers and get kidnapped. It was absolutely terrifying. As the van rolled to a stop, Amanda saw the bright orange light of a bonfire. There were four other teenagers there who looked just as scared as Amanda felt. Michelle Sutton was one of them. Amanda joined the group around the fire, and then she said Murdoch started yelling at them.

11:06I think we're all just terrified and in disbelief, like what in the hell is going on? That first night, the counselors gave each kid a sleeping bag, a seatbelt cord, and a metal can. They could wrap up their belongings in the sleeping bag with the seatbelt cord, and that would be their pack. So far, everything Amanda told me about Summit Quest reminded me of what I'd heard about Challenger. The strip searches, the militaristic bonfire welcome, even down to the materials they were provided. No food was given to us. And then we were given two quarts, two plastic bottles for our water. Just two quarts of water a day is what we were given.

11:44That two quarts of water was used for cooking, cleaning your body, and for drinking. That's it. And we were in the four corners. Desert. Bad, bad, bad. Two quarts is not nearly enough water to stay adequately hydrated while out in the desert all day, let alone to be spread out for other uses like cooking or personal hygiene. In fact, Utah's Bureau of Land Management advises a minimum of four quarts per day, double the amount Summit Quest provided, just for drinking. When hiking at high elevations, they advise eight quarts per day. That night, Amanda and the others were also required to remove their shoes and hand them over to the counselors, a measure taken to discourage the kids from trying to escape.

12:30As they crawled into their sleeping bags, a quiet fear came over the camp. If this was night one, what did the coming days have in store?

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14:39There were five teenagers in total, three girls and two boys, all between the ages of 15 and 18. There were two counselors, Ruth Young, who was 25 years old at the time, and Lance Verwerda, who was 26. But according to Amanda, Ruth was the one in charge. She had like, kind of like how you would imagine a mountain woman to look like. She had long hair and she'd put it in a beret, very natural looking, quite a bit of a, you know, like a leathery type tan to her face. She had hazel eyes, kind of shorter in stature, but not super thin, but not heavy either. Lance was tall. When we were hiking, he'd sit there and burp and fart the alphabet.

15:23He thought that was funny. For most of their time at Summit Quest, it was just the five teens and the two counselors hiking in the desert. But every once in a while, Murdoch would drive in to bring food or water supplies. Amanda said it was never pleasant when he was around. He seemed to enjoy making things harder than they already were. He would just yell at us and make it really hard while he was there. You know, you're going to go on an extra hike now today. The plan was for the group to be out in the desert for 63 days. And most days, they hiked. It wasn't clear to Amanda where they were hiking or why.

16:01They weren't allowed to talk to each other or to ask questions. Michelle had been out in the desert for four days by the time Amanda arrived and the program officially started. The first section was called Impact, and it lasted for two days. They weren't given any food during this time. They were told to forage from the land, which, of course, they didn't know how to do. After that, they were given rations, germade, rice, dried peas, and some flour. But they couldn't cook their food unless they could learn how to make a fire with a bow drill. Michelle wrote in her journal that she mostly ate ash cakes, flour mixed with a little water, and formed into a ball and eaten raw.

16:44The reality of Summit Quest was strikingly different from the way the program was described in the Summit Quest brochure. Where were the ropes courses, the pottery classes? Gail told Kathy that Summit Quest was not a harsh program. Her daughter Krista even spoke with Michelle on the phone before she left Pleasanton. But once Michelle arrived at Summit Quest and contact was cut off with her family, she wrote in her journal, Krista lied to me. She said you can shower every once in a while, but you can't shower the whole time you're here. She also said you hike every other day, but you don't. You hike 10 to 15 miles a day.

17:25Summit Quest seemed pretty much the same as Challenger, harsh and punishing. Which makes sense because Murdoch, Lance, and Ruth all worked at Challenger before Gail hired them to come work for her. By the way, none of them agreed to speak with me for this podcast. According to Amanda, none of them were very nice. Not Lance, not Ruth, definitely not Murdoch. But every once in a while, Gail Palmer would drive out to the desert to visit them. And surprisingly, she was very nice. Gail would be the one that would come in and she'd be like, come and see Mama Gail. Here's some candy. Here's some, you know, and it'd be like one little morsel of candy.

18:09But it was like, oh, yay. So you got happy when you saw her because she was the only one that wasn't ever just yelling at you or punishing you or disciplining you. Mama Gail, she'd show up and offer the only respite. Amanda said Gail gave them inspirational speeches about how Summit Quest would change their lives for the better. She would tell us things like, all the other people have been through this. They have just thrived and they're not lost anymore. And you can have hope to having a better life now. So everything she had to say was positive. She'd bring our letters out to us from our parents, which of course, even though you hate them, it's communication.

18:48And that was awesome because you're just isolated. So even though she was the one that developed the program, we didn't see her as that person at the time. We saw her as our savior out there, our hope to having something better. Despite the fact that Gail was really the one in charge at Summit Quest, it would be years before Amanda saw it this way. At the time, she liked Gail. She trusted Gail. Day in and day out, they hiked. They were told to write in their journals every day. Ruth Young read the journals and left notes in the margins. They also occasionally sat around a fire and talked. This was the only time the kids were allowed to talk to each other, and it was only when Ruth was present.

19:35As far as I can tell, this is what Summit Quest was calling therapy. Feedback in their journals and the occasional fireside talk, all conducted by Ruth Young, who had no training or experience as a therapist. And what do you remember about your first impressions of meeting the other participants? I don't think any of us dared talk. Like, we didn't talk to each other for a few days. We were hiked nonstop. They didn't encourage you to talk. Each day meant another strenuous hike through the hot desert. It was always hiking, usually zigzagging. Sometimes they would let us keep our campsite together and just take us out in the middle of the night and hike us and then bring us back.

20:23So, you know, not every time would we have to repack up camp, but most of the time we would. And then on May 5th, things took a turn for Michelle. She writes, During that last part of the first hike and all during the second one, I felt totally sick. When we got back to our campground, I relaxed for a while, and then I threw up all the water I drank throughout the day. I am down to a very little bit of water that has to last me until tomorrow night. I don't know what I'll do. Today, my sister got married. It was one of the happiest days in her life, and I wasn't there to share it with her. I hope it turned out okay.

21:03Underneath Michelle's journal entry that day is a response written by her counselor, Ruth Young. Ruth writes, Ruth Young attended some nursing school previously, was CPR certified, and had experience working in multiple outdoors programs. And yet, as Michelle started to get sick, Ruth continued to tell her that she needed to try harder. They were just very authoritative, you know. They never talked to you. That was kind of part of their punishment, was you never got answers. you're never really spoken to, you're only told what to do, and that was that. Once Michelle got sick, she wasn't able to recover.

21:46There was no relief from the daily torment of hiking hours through the desert with little food or water. And so her condition worsened. She writes, Dear Mom, Dad, and Family, today is May 6th. I have been hiking every day since I got there. I haven't eaten a single thing for three days straight. For the last two days, I have thrown up all the water that I drink. I have a pretty bad sunburn on my arms. It hurts pretty bad. She goes on to write, I wish you guys would let me come home. All the staff here think that feeling will go away soon, but I know it won't. I have never wanted anything as bad than my wish to come home now.

22:28Please, I beg you to bring me home. I love you guys so much. This place isn't helping me one bit. I am more discouraged about life than I have ever been. Of course, the Suttons did not see her plea for help as it was just written in her journal, and Michelle wasn't allowed to send letters home yet. The next day, May 7th, Michelle wrote that she was tired and still sick. And then beside her entry is a note from Ruth Young. It says, Michelle, I realize you are tired, but you have been sloughing off on completing your tasks. Be aware that you are now being warned. She signs off with, I'm here to talk if you need me.

23:08Love ya, Ruth. And a smiley face with the tongue hanging out. This was two days before Michelle died. And then all of a sudden she's sick and throwing up, and I'm thinking, as her mom, when I'm reading that journal, I'm going, if she were home, we'd be giving her 7-Up and crackers and taking her to the doctor and, you know, things like that. Michelle asked to leave. She wrote about it in her journal as well. She wanted the counselors to call her mother, but no one did. If you had known at that time that she was asking to leave, would you have wanted her to be able to leave? Of course, yes, yes.

23:46But Kathy had no idea that her daughter was sick. She wishes she had been told that Michelle wanted to come home. She said there was time, days, in which something could have been done. But Kathy was given a very different report. from Summit Quest. Yale wasn't telling us any of those things. None of that was being told to us about Michelle being sick and throwing up now because what we heard from her, remember, was she's the mother of the camp, a real trooper, leadership qualities. As I sat with Kathy on her living room sofa, she flipped through the bound copy she made of Michelle's journal. It's clear that she already knows what's written on every page, that she's read the entries over and over again.

24:29She was thought to be a faker. a whiner, a manipulator, and told it was all in her head, that 10 % of her brain was making her do this. That was from Ruth Young, her counselor. And I was like, you know, why did they, how could they treat my child this way? I mean, it's just the anger welled up inside of me. How dare they? How could they treat her this way? During Impact, Michelle wrote that she ate a little bit of cactus and one gooseberry. That's it, for two days. And then on the evening of May 7th, presumably to celebrate the end of the impact phase, the kids received a gift from Gail Palmer, a big can of peaches.

25:10Amanda remembers Gail delivering the peaches in person, but Michelle wrote that they were told the can of peaches was behind a tree. She doesn't mention Gail being there. Either way, Michelle was already feeling too sick at that point to eat any of the peaches. The others ate the peaches, and then they paid the price. We all had horrific diarrhea, massive stomach cramping. We hadn't had any food, any solid food. So we all got really sick, and almost as much as you were happy to eat the peaches, you regretted eating the peaches. Because now you were just sick, your stomach was cramping, and you had diarrhea, no toilet paper, no ability to wash yourself, unless you used the water that you drink with.

25:56Despite the fact that Amanda and Michelle were enduring the same uniquely horrible experience at Summit Quest, they hadn't had a real conversation yet. Connecting with your peers was all but forbidden at Summit Quest, the same way it was at Challenger. But the night of May 8th, Amanda and Michelle finally had a chance to talk. I know it sounds like the first few days, everyone's in shock. You're not really talking to anyone. But, you know, what are your first memories of her and what was your impression of Michelle? Okay, so my first memory of Michelle was actually the day before she died. Or not my first memory, but my first time that I spoke with her was the night before she died.