GAYLE PALMER Part 5 of 7: Far From Over

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1:25I mean, I don't even know how to answer that question. Allison after NXIVM from CBC's Uncover is available now wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast contains disturbing content. Please take care while listening. Amanda D. Rose and three other teenagers were stranded out in the Arizona Strip, a sprawling, arid piece of land south of the Utah border and north of the Colorado River. It's incredibly remote. The Grand Canyon almost completely cuts it off from the rest of Arizona, which means St. George, Utah is the closest city by car. But that was still 92 miles away. They didn't have a working radio or a vehicle.

2:06They were low on water and food, and the sun was setting. It was May 9th. Michelle Sutton's body lay on the ground. Amanda and the others had been unable to resuscitate her. And according to Amanda, their counselors, Ruth and Lance, were nowhere to be seen. At that point, it became very real that like, holy shit, we're going to die out here. They left us. And what are we going to do? We don't have radios. We don't have food. We don't have water outside of what we had found. Amanda remembered they had hiked by a little cabin a few hours before. It was most likely used by National Park Services to store supplies.

2:45The group backtracked, found the cabin, and broke in. They were looking for food. We found like two of those, you know, freeze-dried military-style mills that were in there. And I remember us opening them and sharing those between the four of us. Out of all of them, Amanda was the only one who had learned how to make a fire with a bow and drill. The group gathered brush from the area, which is populated with juniper trees and sagebrush. Amanda lit three fires in the shape of a triangle, an international distress signal. and the teenagers kept those fires burning all night long. There were four of them, Amanda, Chad, Kurt, and Andrea.

3:24How are the other kids reacting to Michelle's death and then being next to her body throughout the night? Every one of us were reacting pretty much the same, shocked, crying, terrified. They placed a blue tarp over Michelle's body. We covered her up. We were afraid that she'd be cold. All of us were very sensitive to her still as almost, oh, she was alive, you know? We had a lot of nightmares that night that all of us felt like we could have done something different to stop it. All night, the four of them replayed the events of that day, wishing that they could turn back time, do something, anything to save Michelle.

4:07But what could they have done realistically? This could have turned deadly for any of them. In fact, it still could. We were really seriously thought that we were just going to be left out there. We weren't certain what was going to happen to us. They made it through the night. And then, around 7 a.m., a small plane flew overhead. We saw a plane, a private plane. And when they saw us, they chipped their wings. And we knew we were seen, finally. How did you feel when you saw that plane? Thank God we're getting out of here. We're saved. We're not going to die. Amanda remembers the plane disappearing, and then about an hour later, National Park Services arrived in another plane.

4:50And then hours after that, two vehicles pulled up. It was the Bureau of Land Management, or BLM, and the Mojave County Sheriff's Office. At that point, it had been about 20 hours since Michelle died. Amanda said that once help finally arrived, Ruth and Lance rejoined the group. Apparently, they had been close by the whole night, just out of view. And then Ruth and Lance came back out again once they saw the state vehicles coming in to, you know, to the body. That's when they came back out of the tree line. Michelle's body was taken away by a helicopter. Amanda and the four other kids waited to see what would happen to them.

5:30She told me that the night that they spent out in the desert, the night of May 9th, the four of them said one thing to each other over and over, one thought to keep hope alive. If they were rescued, then at least they could go home. Their hellish experience at Summit Quest would be over. We were all constantly, like, talking about how, even though that was super terrifying, that we're going to get out now, we're not going to have to worry, that our parents would never make us stay, and that, you know, they're going to find out and they're going to come and they're going to rescue us. And that's not what happened at all.

6:07From Cast Media, this is The Opportunist. This is Season 7, Episode 5. Gail Palmer, Far From Over. I'm Hannah Smith.

6:40and review The Opportunist on Apple Podcasts. You can also listen ad-free on Amazon Music.

6:56According to the case incident record taken by the National Park Service, Amanda and the other kids were interviewed by Detective Hadlock from the Mojave County Sheriff's Department. Detective Hadlock did not reply to my interview request. Lance and Ruth were also interviewed for the case incident record. They stated that this was the first class Summit Quest had ever sent out and that they were both unfamiliar with the area where they were hiking. After everyone was interviewed, they were transported back to St. George, where Gail Palmer was waiting for them. And how did she interact with you?

7:30You know, what did she say? Empathetic. But, you know, when we say we want to talk to our parents, she's like, they don't want to talk to you guys right now. You know, we just think it's for the best. We wanted so bad to talk to our parents, and Gail felt like it was for the best that we didn't. She told our parents the same thing, apparently. So Gail really promoted to the parents not to speak with us and told us that the parents didn't want to speak with us. The scene at the Summit Quest headquarters was chaotic, swarming with police officers and BLM personnel. Amanda and the other three kids were sort of pushed to the side in all of that.

8:07David Teo got a call on May 10th to come to Summit Quest. We heard from David in episode one. He was a college football player at the time in St. George, and he'd been hired to transport Michelle to Summit Quest just a week before. The call he received on May 10th was from a male Summit Quest employee, but David doesn't remember his name. He called me, said they need assistance at the facility. I believe he promised me a couple hours out of that. David wasn't told much just to come to Summit Quest. When he arrived, he was left alone with the four teenagers. The kids were all crying. Everyone was saying, I want to call my parents.

8:48I want to go home. And they just kept saying, I want to go home. Consistently, repeatedly, throughout like every minute, just crying and saying that. So it's to the point where I'm like, man, what? What's going on? But none of them would tell him. They just kept crying and asking to call their parents. Finally, David thought, I'll ask Michelle what's going on. Michelle knows me. But I didn't see Michelle. So I'm looking around and I look at the boy. I said, hey, where's Michelle? And then he just starts crying like she died. David had been worried when he dropped Michelle off that she might not be ready for an intensive outdoor program.

9:34And now he was hearing what seemed to be impossible. She was dead? He said all the kids started speaking at once through their tears, telling him that Michelle had run out of water on the morning of May 9th and then hiked all day. I'm like, OK, why didn't you guys just get her water? I said, we couldn't. They sold us not to give her water. They're basically saying if I shared my drink, I would be in a world of hurt myself. and one of the teens was saying that they thought she was faking it. Who thought she was faking it? The wilderness guide person, the staffer, was saying that she was faking her stumbling, being delirious out there.

10:19David said before he knew any of this, he had been told by someone at Summit Quest not to let the kids call their parents. The male staffer said no one's calling their parents. That's what he said. and he didn't give a reason behind it. And obviously to me, it was, I think they just didn't want that information leaked out. But then David, who was only 20 years old at the time, was left alone with these four teenagers who were clearly traumatized. They needed help. And he started to wonder, what was Summit Quest going to do to help them, if anything? They were witness to something that they shouldn't have witnessed.

11:02And there was no one from the staff to have an individual there to comfort these kids. The kids were just left to kind of absorb it with me. And I'm like, I don't know what the hell is going on. You know, and I had to kind of figure things out. So I'm like, you know what? Call your parents. It was the wrong thing to do for a company's perspective. But if you're not going to help these kids, then you don't deserve to have these kids. David told them to call their parents, although the details of what happened next are fuzzy. As far as he can recall, he thinks at least one of the teenagers was able to get a hold of their parents before Summit Quest realized what was going on.

11:47David was told to go home, and he was never offered work from Summit Quest again. But he has never forgotten that day. Or Michelle Sutton. I think that's the whole sad thing about it, that she was willing to go get whatever help that she needed and put her life in the hands of these idiots. And they took it.

12:12Amanda told me the details of May 9th, the day Michelle died, are burned into her memory forever. But not so much the direct aftermath on May 10th. She does remember that after less than a day in St. George, she was taken back, back out to the desert. I just remember it being so short that we were there, and then they were just driving us right back out there again. As hard as it might be to believe, the kids were sent back to the desert to complete the 63-day Summit Quest program. Gail Palmer had called their parents and convinced them that this was best, that sending them home right now would interrupt their healing process.

12:54According to a complaint later filed by attorney Thomas Burton, Gail told the kids that their parents didn't want to talk to them, and she encouraged the kids to, quote, not be quitters like Michelle and go back out and complete the 63-day program. Gail had a lot to gain by keeping these kids at Summit Quest. For one, she wouldn't have to return anyone's money. Additionally, she could keep these kids, the ones who really knew what happened to Michelle, isolated from the outside world and the media. But what about law enforcement? You'd think if a 15-year-old girl died in a program that the police would immediately step in and shut the program down.

13:39But remember, in May of 1990, there were no regulations in place in Utah for wilderness therapy programs. It was unclear to law enforcement if Gail Palmer had actually broken any laws. The Mojave County Sheriff's Office in Kingman, Arizona, opened an investigation into Michelle's death. But while that was ongoing, Summit Quest was allowed to keep operating. Amanda and the four other teens were sent back out into the desert to complete the 63-day program. How did that feel to you that they were driving you back out there? That we were going to die. We really all thought we were going to die. We're just going to be shipped right back out to die.

14:20We were terrified. We were absolutely terrified. I just remember us walking out and them saying, get back in the van. We're taking you guys back out to the field. I don't remember anything much more than just being shocked because we were going back out. Who the hell would send us back out there? Someone just died. Someone had just died. And yet very little changed at Summit Quest. They were given working radios and a vehicle for emergencies. But everything else was pretty much the same. So from that point on, we had a vehicle and we had radios and water. But the same amount of water was given to us.

14:59It's just our water ration was more accessible because it was in the back of the truck. So they wouldn't lose it. What was the rest of the program like, you know, after Michelle's death? They were more strict, which didn't even seem to be possible. But they were, we weren't allowed to talk about it. And we weren't allowed to talk about it with the other students either. But still just the same intensive hiking, you know. And that was months, months longer that we were out there. We really thought we were going to die. Summit Quest was supposed to be a therapeutic program, and yet Amanda and the others did not receive any therapy or support in processing what they had been through.

15:38Instead, they were forbidden to talk about Michelle.

16:07Thank you.

16:20Amanda endured two more months in the desert, long arduous hikes, limited food and water, and abuse from the counselors. Every once in a while, Gail Palmer would come visit them and bring a treat or some kind words. Despite the fact that Amanda hated Summit Quest, She never blamed Gail back then. It wouldn't be until years later that Amanda realized Gail was behind all of it. But at the time, she said Gail felt motherly. I never recall hating Gail. I always recall thinking when we saw her, it was a good thing because she was nice, like I said, you know. And it was like good news always. It was either letters or a candy or sometimes she'd bring this bully on for our food.

17:05But Gail was the one who had hired Ruth and Lance and Murdoch, Summit Quest's field director. Gail approved the harsh conditions. Murdoch also paid visits to the group out in the desert. But the kids were not excited when he showed up. God, just a bad man. Just an evil man. I hated him so bad. I'm highly claustrophobic. And at one point of camp, he took and he wrapped me up in a tarp and then he put bungee cords around it. And he strung me up between two trees and made me sit there with my body just mummified, you know. And he just thought that was so funny to watch me feel so scared. And God, I hated him.

17:47Things were so bad that Amanda thought about trying to escape. But honestly, it seemed impossible, like a sure death sentence. I don't think anybody can survive walking out because they make sure that they own your equipment. so that they can control you with it. So say you turned 18 out there, they can say, fine, go ahead and walk out. But your shoes are ours, your socks are ours, those water bottles are ours, your sleeping bags are ours, your clothes are ours. So you'll have to walk out in your underwear. They'd say that to us all the time. I ended up getting a really bad kidney infection. I ended up getting a UTI that then just went to my kidneys and it took months for it to get bad enough, but my back was all distended and swollen.

18:28It got so bad. Amanda was finally driven to the ER. The emergency doctor had me locked away in this room and he wasn't letting the staff come in there. He was really concerned about putting me back out there because of the state I was in. My body physically, I was so malnourished and cut up, bruised up. My kidneys were, they had a drain bolt to them. Like I said, I had a horrible UTI. And he was concerned because of the lack of food we were eating that the antibiotics would be hard on my system. So he kept telling them, you need a feeder. And they're like, we're not going to feed her. So give us the antibiotics.

19:01We'll let her have five raisins before she eats one. And the doctor kept trying to call the cops. He just kept saying, this just doesn't seem right to me. How are they able to do this? So he was trying to do everything he could to keep me from going back out. But that didn't matter. They just took me back out anyway. Amanda's parents signed paperwork legally giving Summit Quest guardianship over her, so the doctor had no power to stop them from taking Amanda back. But part of the horror of Amanda's story is all of the times that adults saw the state that she was in, saw what was happening to her, and yet nothing was done.

19:39From the moment that she was kidnapped out of a sizzler in Provo, to the horrible day that she watched Michelle die and wasn't allowed to give her water, to the aftermath in St. George, all of those adults, government employees, law enforcement, and now this doctor, they saw what was happening to her and either didn't or couldn't step in. Amanda knew no one was coming to help her. She just had to survive. And then finally, one day in July in 1990, it was over. Amanda woke up and was told, today is the day you get to see your parents. It was the run-in, the end of the program in which the kids are made to run for miles to get to the place where their parents are waiting for them.

20:23But before they could start running, they were told one other thing by Summit Quest. There would be a news crew at the run-in. What Amanda and the other kids at Summit Quest didn't know is that while they were out there in the desert, forbidden from discussing Michelle's death, their experience at Summit Quest had become national news. And so it was really important that we make it look really good and be so happy. And if your parents didn't like what they were seeing, they could have you sent back out. So, you know, you're just really scared to not have to go back. That's what I remember is not wanting to be with them, but not wanting to be there either.

21:03So, you know, just fear, a lot of fear. It was a threat that would be used to control Amanda until the day she turned 18. it was the worst possible thing she could imagine, being sent back to Summit Quest. And so she did what she was told. They said, start running, you'll find your parents. And as I was running, I felt so like I could just collapse after just a few steps because like my body was just so, you know, pumping with adrenaline and fear. And yeah, it was really bad. The truth was Amanda was not excited to see her parents. She felt so deeply betrayed by them, so horrified that they would send her to a place like this.

21:47I don't even know. I don't even know how to describe how it felt. You were just so happy that you survived. I guess not happy to see them. Just you get to finally eat and you're not trapped. And, you know, you felt glad that you were finally free. I don't know. Just not glad to be back there with them, but anything to get out of Summit Quest. That's how I remember feeling. I couldn't wait till I turned 18 and never speak with them again. That's what I remember thinking at the time. And then, just like that, Amanda was back in the world. She was underweight and filthy for months of not showering.

22:27My parents were really shocked to see how thin I had gone. And like, we were so dirty. I remember that we had to use scrub brushes For like a good solid week it took to get that dirt out of my pores, on my body, you know. Remember, they were only given two quarts of water a day, and that had to be used for drinking, cooking, and bathing. No one wanted to waste that precious water on bathing. I remember we were at the gas station about to leave St. George. And I remember my dad was draining the cooler water from, you know, the cooler that he had in the back of his truck. and I went and closed it and started crying.

23:05How can you do this? You're wasting water. What are you thinking? Like the mentality that we were in at that point was very much still survival. Seeing water go to waste like this sent Amanda into a panic. For months, it had been the most precious commodity. She had watched someone die in front of her from not having enough of it. The adjustment back to her pre-SummitQuest life was rough. I slept on the floor for months. I couldn't sleep in my bed. I rationed my food. I counted my toilet paper squares. I had nightmares every single night that they were going to take me back. You know, like my stomach was literally completely distended.

23:48Just, I think I was, I was like maybe close to 70 something pounds, maybe even less. It was horrible. You were starving to death all the time. I stayed very, very, very thin after that for quite some time. But eventually, I think it took about five or six months, and I slowly got my diet back to where it was more normal. When Amanda got back from Summit Quest, she was malnourished, underweight, and deeply shaken. And yet, she was complacent. She did what her parents told her to do. She didn't argue with them. She didn't cause problems. She didn't try to run away from home. And she thinks that her parents interpreted that as proof that Summit Quest had worked.

24:34Remember, before Amanda went into Summit Quest, she had run away from home for nine months. I said to my parents, when you were watching the news and you found out, you know, about her dying, did you want to pull me out? And they said, well, actually, when we were watching the news, all they knew there was a female victim in Summit Quest that had died. They said, actually, we didn't know who had died. And I said, you didn't. And they said, no, we just knew it was a female. And we thought it was for sure you because you were the worst one out there. And all we said, we could think right then was, well, at least we know where her body is.

25:09When Amanda was a runaway, her parents were terrified that she would die. They perceived her life choices as so destructive and dangerous that she would never grow up. she would never get to be an adult. And they clearly thought that death was imminent for her. So much so that when they heard that a girl died at Summit Quest, they were sure it was their daughter. That is how desperate they felt things were. And so the fact that she was alive and she was home, it made it all worth it to them. Even when they had to seek out additional help because Amanda was clearly traumatized, plagued with nightmares every night.