Tim Ballard E10: The Roundtable

0:00A warning. This episode contains discussion of sexual assault that may be disturbing. Listener discretion is advised. As a note, we reached out to Tim Ballard's attorney to request an interview. Our request went unanswered. And one last thing, after Tim Ballard left the anti-trafficking organization OUR in 2023, it was renamed OUR Rescue. Its new leaders say they do not condone Tim Ballard's alleged actions while part of the old organization. Last week, we wrapped up episode nine with a conversation about the smokescreen Tim Ballard hid behind to carry out all of his alleged misconduct. And I say alleged, but at this point, it's pretty obvious what my opinion is.

0:43But that brings us to today's episode. We'll be continuing the broader conversation around the climate and context of Ballard's actions. I've got my team here with me today, some of whom you've already met, Executive Producer Connor Powell, Producer Abby Newhouse, and Andrew Iden and Sarah Batchelor.

1:08This is The Opportunist.

1:19I want to reflect on everything we've learned and to make space for any lingering thoughts from the team. But I want to open with the topic we discussed briefly in Episode 9, and that's OUR's new leadership. their move to Minnesota, and why they decided not to speak with us. Connor and Andrew, you were able to speak with a member of their PR team. Can you tell us about that conversation? I'll go ahead and start with this. I had a lot of conversations with people from OUR, including Tammy Lee, the new CEO, and one of their lawyers at the very early stages of this series. That conversation was off the record.

1:56I'm not going to dive into that conversation a whole lot because I think we had a really frank conversation, but it ended that first conversation with a discussion and an openness to saying, okay, let's move forward with trying to schedule an interview between us and Tammy to talk about OUR in the future. She sounded pretty open to that, like there wasn't any hesitation? Yeah. And Tammy has a background in media. She's been a former CEO. I think she's very media savvy in that sense. And so she was open to a conversation. And I think they have a message they want to get out. What they've told us, they sort of disavow the Tim Ballard era.

2:39They think they have an important mission and they're trying to make changes so that the new OUR Rescue is in position to help combat child trafficking. And that's the message they wanted to get out, which is perfectly fine. I think that's a legitimate conversation. And that leads us to the conversation we had with their PR team in which Andrew and I spoke to them and basically tried to get some questions and some answers about what the conversation might look like. And I left that conversation with the PR team pretty positive. What about you, Andrew? Yeah, you know, sometimes these conversations are important to have before you get to the interview stage, right?

3:22You have to kind of foam their runway, talk a little bit about kind of everyone's intentions. They have a responsibility to talk about OUR and kind of the way things are going to be moving forward. Obviously, it's their decision whether they want to do that. It's also kind of a tough needle to thread because they know going in, they're going to get a lot of questions about the past. They're going to get a lot of questions about Tim Ballard. They obviously felt not talking about it with us was the best way to go. I think we we would all kind of disagree on that front, but it's a difficult needle to thread for sure.

3:56I was just looking back at some of my emails and one of the things that Tammy said in one of my emails was, you know, the move to Minnesota is a definitive break from the past, meaning Tim Ballard, and a fresh start for the future, which like, I get that. These are all different people. She wasn't part of the Tim Ballard era. The board wasn't part of the Tim Ballard era. Almost all of the employees that were part of the Tim Ballard era are gone. So like they want to continue doing the so-called good work of, oh, you are a rescue and sort of break from the Tim Ballard era. And they even said, like they told us, like, we don't condone this.

4:32We're not doing the couple's ruse anymore. They want to basically focus on the future. And Andrew and I said that was perfectly fine. We are going to have to ask some questions about the past, though. And I think the question that most bothered them that we said we wanted to ask was, is there a joint defense fund? Is there joint defense resources for Tim Ballard and OUR going forward? Meaning, is any of the money that is going to OUR today helping pay for Tim Ballard's defense? And that was the one question where they wouldn't answer. And that was sort of the last question. And that was sort of where the conversation felt like it took a real turn.

5:17Right, Andrew? Yeah, I think it was a positive dialogue up until that point. And I think obviously, you know, the answer to that question can have a big bearing on their ability to fundraise moving forward. So you can imagine that if they are, if there is some involvement in funding Tim Ballard's legal defense, that's problematic. You mentioned that the OUR organization at this point, there's nobody there still that is sort of still left over from the old regime. On some level, that should make sort of their conversation and their dialogue with the media a lot easier because it's simple. Look, there's nobody here that was involved in that before.

5:57We're all trying to move forward. We can address some stuff in the past. They know that's coming. And you're right. That was when the tone shifted. One of the things that we talked about was because all of the people today at OUR Rescue were not there under Tim Ballard, it was going to be a really easy conversation for them. I remember we had this conversation was that basically they're going to be able to say, like, we don't condone his actions. We condemn it. And we're about the future. And that's literally all we thought they were going to say. And I would think you would want to take that opportunity to address people who have donated or would possibly donate and clear the air.

6:39Right. And we don't know if any money is going. I mean, they didn't answer the question. It was the only answer they didn't give. And I don't know if there's any shared money or shared resources. It makes logical sense. I talked to a lawyer a couple of days ago and they said a lot of times when there was criminal investigations or lawsuits and that type of things. If an organization has cut ties with a former leader, they almost are bound to have a joint defense relationship because the one organization was connected in the past, and that's what the lawsuits or criminal investigations are about.

7:15So it would make sense, but I do think it's in fairness to OUR Rescue, the new organization. We don't know if they are sharing any joint resources. It's just they wouldn't answer that question. Yeah, it's just really messy. And I keep thinking of this quote from Celeste Boris, who we featured in episode one, where she's talking about the new OUR. And she's saying, you know, basically, the fact of the matter is you're new and you've changed up everything, but you're still not coming forward to say that the women were done wrong by the old organization. Abby, let's play that clip from Celeste. She keeps claiming that they're a new OUR and they don't do the operations like they used to do.

8:01But the fact of the matter is this, you're a new OUR for whatever you've changed up, but you are literally shaming all these women that your old OUR has trafficked and abused and shamed and manipulated because you have admitted that you've ousted Tim Ballard. So you know it and you still are shaming us. And, you know, they're literally suing me. And that seems to me a very easy thing to admit and something that they could even stand on to say that we're doing things completely differently going forward. But the fact that they're kind of not and then in her own words, they're literally suing her.

8:44I'm not exactly sure what that means or how that's evolved since our interview. But it kind of feels like they're not taking that opportunity to sever themselves in a real way from Tim Ballard, even though they say they are. I mean, that kind of goes into the complete lack of responsibility, right? Yeah, for sure. It feels like there is sort of a lack of responsibility by a lot of people. and again i don't think it's necessarily up to tammy the new ceo and everyone to take responsibility for whatever tim did but we certainly know tim's not taking responsibility for his actions if anything he's pushing back and is still still fighting and basically saying you know everything i did was proper and if you disagree with me you're on the side of the traffickers and you know you hate children right i mean that's basically his attitude but it does still feel like there should be a lot more investigation into the way the operation ran under Ballard and a lot more information needs to come out about what was done and what wasn't done.

9:52And that's not happening. I want to give them the benefit of the doubt. Like you said, if they're tied legally right now, then is there really anything they could do for the women that of come in with these suits? I mean, isn't that sort of, they need to leave that alone until that's resolved? That's kind of what I've been wondering. It seems like a logical explanation. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think court cases, lawsuits dictate a lot of this. And I think we all understand that, right? I'm not surprised that necessarily they didn't want to do an interview. I think we always thought that an interview was a long shot, although as we were talking to them, they seem very eager to get their message out.

10:36And I think we thought an interview would be possible. You know, in theory, there are no criminal investigations into OUR. They sort of have been cleared by all accounts. We know there's criminal investigations into Tim Ballard. Like we've heard that there are multiple open cases in California and Utah and a couple other places where the women have filed complaints against Tim Ballard for sexual assault. and we don't know what's going on with those. We also know there's the federal lawsuit against Tim Ballard, which I think there's meant to be a hearing here in the next couple of weeks, according to Suzette Rasmussen and the lawyers for the women.

11:14So, you know, probably criminal is sort of off the table for OUR, but it's certainly not off the table for Tim Ballard. I was just going to point out, OUR and Tammy Lee have done interviews. So they have spoken and, you know, had dialogue with outlets about some of these things we're talking about. And those places have asked some of the same questions we have. So what was behind the choice not to do with us? Hard to say. And going back to what Connor was saying earlier about OUR not having investigations and them being off the table, it brings you back to another quote from Celeste Boris where she's talking about when she worked at OUR.

11:56Abby, we have the soundbite. Let's play it right now. I'm so angry because I worked at OUR for so long before Tim got a hold of me. And like they were my friends, right? Like I made relationships with these people. They were supposed to protect me. And I literally feel like they trafficked me to Tim. So Tim could traffic me around several countries and several states. and they still aren't taking responsibility for it. And I'm like, I don't want anything from you other than just to acknowledge that that's so wrong. That's so wrong. You can't do this to people. And the thing is so hurtful that they knew what he was doing.

12:43They knew he had done this in the past and they still allowed him to work with women. They still allowed him to work with me and they knew who I was. I was their employee. I was their friend. They all knew that he had done it before to different women. And so that's part of what she felt was so hurtful is that people that she trusted, including Tim, including all these, a couple other people that are involved in the federal case, like Michael Polenta, right? Matt Cooper, you know, those people all knew. So it is interesting that OUR is kind of off the hook in some ways because those people who worked for OUR perpetuated harmful practices.

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14:04This isn't your average mocktail. Choose between tapping in with Flo's dose of Lion's Mane or tuning out with Dream, a sparkling mocktail made to help you relax and ease into rest with reishi, chamomile, and passionflower. Head to feelthebreeze.com slash drink5. That's feelthebreeze.com slash drink5 and use the code drink5 for a$5 credit plus free shipping on your first order. Since we're a group of journalists and writers, I think it's important to take a minute to talk about the difference between disinformation and misinformation. And Sarah, you had written about this in a previous episode.

14:45I feel like you feel pretty strongly about this. Do you have anything that you want to add? Well, we talked a lot about how Tim Ballard's upbringing in the LDS church likely influenced a lot of his behavior forming OUR and everything thereafter. One thing we pointed out, because you brought up the difference between disinformation and misinformation is the fact that on OUR's website, when Tim Ballard was still part of the organization, they have rescue numbers right there on their homepage, like the amount of children they've rescued from trafficking, but there's no evidence for that. I think that was there to just kind of fueled this image of OUR and therefore Tim Ballard as extremely powerful without a lot of government or systemic backing, at least as far as he wants us to think.

15:46And we analyzed how he sort of sets himself up as, or like aligns himself with Joseph Smith as a prophet, as this figurehead. And I think because of all the emotion and spirituality surrounding him and his community and everything that he does, that kind of leads people. And because anti-trafficking is a really noble effort in general, that sort of leads people to not question the claims that he's making. Like he treats himself as a brand and that this PR is the way that he wants to present things when it might not necessarily be 100 % accurate. Yeah. And I think you made a point in that episode, Sarah, about how even Tim Ballard's language and OUR under him, their language surrounding trafficking wasn't always consistent.

16:43Sometimes they would refer to what I presume they meant traffickers, but they would say predators. And that's something different. And the muddling of the topic of trafficking in general, again, to me seems like another disinformation tactic to confuse people and kind of just get them on board and create this good versus evil narrative or a belief cycle that made it really easy for them to, or I should say Ballard specifically, to do all of his alleged behavior. One of the things that sticks out to me is they're always talking about child trafficking. Yeah. But then a lot of the women, you know, when they go to London, places like that, they're actually grown women.

17:28And it's not to mean that trafficking is better because they're adults, right? But like, they do like to conflate a lot of terms. However, sort of best fits whatever narrative they're talking about. And that is sort of just a jumbled collection of phrases and things that make you feel like they're on the moral right side. Well, because child trafficking, that's a next level depravity, right? And I'm kind of speaking in their vernacular, like, can't we all agree child trafficking is something we should be behind? Like it's kind of that, you know, language. It's getting people, pulling at people and making them think that there's this like moral high ground they're on.

18:15And I think it also caused a frenzy, to be honest, like kind of what me and Sarah talked about in episode nine just recently about how you started noticing in airports and wherever it was telling you to watch out for signs of trafficking. And when you get these terms so misconstrued, it's actually really difficult to understand what that means, what you should be looking for, who's in danger, where danger is coming from. And I think because of that, you know, they kind of lost the plot at some points. That doesn't seem to have really messed with donors or anything. but I think, of course, why we're making this podcast right now is because that always comes to a head at some point.

18:56When things are not quite clicking, we have to investigate why. I think also obfuscating definitions and using buzzwords to do that ties back to what Andrew was saying because, I mean, it's dark to think this, but when it comes to the issue of trafficking adults, for many people, there's still a level of victim blaming. And that's one thing that concerns me with this federal lawsuit because these women have already described such a level of victim blaming when it comes to the sexual abuse allegations. And I think that's sort of delineation. It is really easy rhetorically to get people behind the issue of child trafficking because it's children.

19:44They're innocent. But then when it's adults, there are many people who have this natural tendency to think, oh, well, how did that person get themselves into this situation? Maybe they shouldn't have been doing X, Y, and Z. And I think that that mentality largely comes from fear because people don't want to think about the fact that this could happen to them. So they want to come up with all these reasons why this other person, quote unquote, got themselves into that situation. But again, that's kind of what concerns me about the federal lawsuit is how much of that rhetoric are we going to see?

20:21And then what's that going to do to the larger world of anti-trafficking and much more valid, credible efforts against all forms of trafficking, especially because Tim Ballard is so high profile. I don't think the governments of the world, for whatever they were doing or not doing, I don't think that Ballard's story changes everything, right? You still have a massive effort at the US government and even state and locals to combat child trafficking, trafficking in general, you know, sex crimes and things like that. In some ways, it goes back to a little bit of a conversation we last week, which is, is there really a need for private organizations to be doing these type of paramilitary operations?

21:05You know, maybe they'd be better off raising awareness and helping with aftercare. And I think that's one of the things that's really interesting is several of the women we interviewed, they all signed up because they wanted to help the kids that were rescued. They didn't really care about the operations themselves. They sort of saw that as like, oh, let the professionals do that. I really want to help with the aftercare. And that's one of the things we've heard is like, there just doesn't seem to be as much an emphasis on the aftercare as there is, or as there was under Tim Ballard with the sort of the guns and the body armor and the raids and stuff like that, the operations.

21:40And what Celeste and Kira and others, I think, signed up for is they really wanted to help those children after the fact. And maybe that's a better place for a group like OUR to be operating in as opposed to being the paramilitary organization that they were under Tim Ballard, essentially. Well, it kind of makes you wonder, is there no aftercare because there are no children that they're actually procuring on these missions? I mean, do they have - That's certainly the accusation by Robert Gerke and Damian Moore, the journalist who's done a lot of research, and there's a couple other journalists who've done a lot of research.

22:16That's the accusation, is that there aren't that many kids being rescued in these operations. Yeah, I think the woman actually said as much in some of their interviews. Where are the children? How can I help with the children? Here's what Sasha had to say on this. I wanted to know what was happening if we rescued any kids. So I kept texting him, hey, what's the status of our mission? Are there any kids that have been rescued? No, no, no. So after two years of me asking, I just stopped asking because there was no kids. There was no updates. There was no nothing. Which if you watch The Sound of Freedom, that couldn't be further from – like if you watch The Sound of Freedom, the number of children that Tim Ballard is rescuing is just endless.

23:06Right. Yeah, they should be up to their necks in aftercare. They should be reaching out for more volunteers to help with that. And instead, it's just crickets. I think that also proves, going back to something Connor said earlier, that these women like Celeste who got involved with OUR are probably way more educated in anti-trafficking than Tim Ballard ever was because there is research that shows trafficking victims without proper aftercare, they're at super high risk for being trafficked again. If you're running an anti-trafficking organization, private or otherwise, you have to take that into account.

23:44So if women like Celeste joined OUR with the intention of really focusing on aftercare, it's like they probably really knew what they were doing. And Tim Ballard kind of just like you said, he just it was like optics. He just wanted this like paramilitary. What was shown in that movie is like really what he thinks was happening in his mind. It also goes back to what we were talking about at the very beginning of this episode. I'm disappointed that the new OUR Rescue wouldn't talk because one of the things I'd love to know is what are they doing in the world of aftercare? They're still doing operations.

24:20Now, they're not doing the Tim Ballard type operations. It's more law enforcement that they're working with. But the sense I got is that they are trying to focus on aftercare. I don't know if they actually are. But that was certainly the sense that they were trying to portray themselves. And I'd love to know more about aftercare because, as Sarah just made the point, like children, women who are trafficked once are always at risk of being trafficked if they aren't out of that cycle. And an organization like OUR Rescue is probably best positioned to help break that cycle as opposed to help identifying the places and the people who are trafficking.

25:00You know, that's really where there is a need. You have law enforcement to do the identification of the traffickers. Law enforcement is not positioned to deal with aftercare in any meaningful way. We'll be right back. Tim Ballard might not be an actual politician, but he has brushed elbows with some that are, and he's used these political tactics to gain influence in Utah and elsewhere. So let's talk about how he capitalized on the issue of human trafficking. This is an issue that should be nonpartisan and nonpolarizing, but he's using it to gain fame and power. I think one of the things that has kind of stuck out to me is that Tim Ballard really is capitalizing on actual human trafficking.

25:50He's getting people to donate. He's using the money in ways that shareholders aren't aware of. He's also using it to gain popularity, gets his movie made. He is making money off of this. And this is one of the things that bothers me the most is if you're not with him, then you're a trafficker. It's really hard to take that from him. I still go back to the craziness of an organization that is running undercover operations, having a CEO who is on social media nonstop, who's doing interviews nonstop. And I completely understand the criticism and I tend to agree with it, that this was a vehicle for promotion of Tim Ballard, more than anything.

26:40Maybe it did some good, maybe it didn't. That's still, I think, very much up in the air. But what is definitive is that this OUR organization was a vehicle for the promotion of Tim Ballard and for whatever he wanted to promote, whether it was a political career, whether it was a movie, whether it was just himself in fundraising. That's what OUR was in the business of doing more than anything. I'm kind of distilling it down to some basic tenets here, but at the end of the day, I think Tim Ballard wanted to be an influencer, man. That's really what he was doing, was he was building this persona, largely on social media, of this crusader and this noble higher calling.

27:26And it was all a charade. And like, you know, I will give Tim Ballard credit here. The guy believed the things it seemed to me he believed the things that were coming out of his mouth because he sold people on these these ideas. And they always say the best way to sell somebody on the idea is for you to be the first one to buy it. well how do you feel about him saying that you know he might be a prophet do you think that he really truly thinks it's a prophet or is this just another angle for the influencer well well it's hard to say i mean he it may be a situation where you know sometimes people get such an inflated view of themselves that before they know it you know he's talking about himself as a prophet like maybe he did believe that in the beginning i think tim ballard was like i'm gonna build a brand a persona all on the back of being this noble human trafficking crusader yeah i really i really think he wanted to be president yeah i think that was one of the end goals i can't remember what year it was 21 or 22 there was this big conference in utah called alpha con i don't know if anybody's heard of this but tim was set to headline at one point i can't remember if he actually did it.