Perfecting Parenthood

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0:59How crazy do your kids drive you when you try to take five minutes, just five little minutes to yourself to take a shower or eat a sandwich? Do the little darlings start performing, beating each other up, jumping all over your sofa, whining about being hungry when you just threw away a whole plate of food they refused to eat? If you're starting to feel like parenthood is a torture test that you are not going to survive, keep the faith. Because my guests today say that bringing up baby is not easy, but you do not have to lose your sanity in the process. Meet Brooke Beebe. When she had her first child nine years ago and realized how much she didn't know, Brooke networked with thousands of mothers through questionnaires, plus talk with pediatricians and child care experts.

1:46She wrote two best-selling books, Best Bets for Babies and Tips for Toddlers. Both are filled with hundreds of ways to make life with children a little easier. And Dr. Kevin Lehman gets right to the point in his book, Making Children Mine Without Losing Yours. He uses what he calls reality discipline to teach kids what's what. And Dr. James Commer is a child psychiatrist from Yale. He also writes a monthly child care column in Parents Magazine. Welcome them all to the show.

2:18The biggest problem with your children is what? The biggest problem with your children. I just want to see, you know, you're talking about child molestation, your child being abducted and everything. And what I want to know is, how do you protect them without getting them so scared that they're afraid to go outside and play? You tell them that everybody in life isn't like mommy and daddy, that there are people in life that really do hurt children. And so you really have to prepare a kid to be streetwise and go through what-if games and develop code words so that you don't get suckered into, hey, little girl, your mother has sent me to pick you up.

2:56Your mom's been hurt in an accident. Those kinds of things. It's a tough, tough job. Yeah, we use our cat's name. Nobody would know our cat's name except for me. And so that's the one my son knows. And at the same time... You want to know what it is? She's not going to tell... Think she's going to tell you on national TV so everyone can... I have to protect my child. Yes, yes. At the same time, they have to understand that not all people are bad people. And how do you teach them that without making them paranoid? Yeah, that's right. Well, I think you let them know that not all people are bad people.

3:28Most people are good people like Mommy and Daddy. But there are some people that you have to watch out for. Let's talk about... That's a very serious subject. I want to talk about whining. I want to talk about whining. Mom. Have you heard those words? Mom. How do you stop the whining? Dr. Comer. Well, I think they're going to whine. Is it a part of a child's nature to whine? I think whining is a request for attention, and giving some attention will stop some whining, but they're going to whine. Why? Why do they whine all the time? I think it is because they want attention, and it's one way to get the attention is to whine and go after mom and dad.

4:23But I think you have to ask for and give them instructions about what to do and other things to do that will get them doing their thing rather than trying to get all the attention from you. Is there any such thing as a perfect child that doesn't whine? Is there a way you can do it? Is it that everybody's doing it wrong? Is there a way you can do it? Children whine because they are the enemy. Yeah.

4:53It's amazing. I believe that children have piranha-like instincts They know just where to come in and, you know, if a mom is on the phone. I mean, all you've got to do is mention the phone. And there's the phone call. Oh, hi, Mary Jane. Ha-ha. Oh, Friday evening? Oh, we'd love to. Mary Jane, could you hold on for just one second? Would you catch me? Shut up. Could I bring a salad? Yeah, but I have a good tip for that. You keep things by the phone that they ordinarily do not have access to. And when you get that important phone call, you know, a simple thing like a roll of scotch tape. You just pull it off, give it to the kid.

5:35He spends a long time getting it off his fingers and clothes and everything. That's a good thing to do by the time. How do you handle lying? Well, it depends on what age you're talking about as to whether it's lying or not. Let's start with young lying. Very young children really don't understand the difference between the truth and getting their own way. Oh, really? Getting their own way is really kind of normal and natural. When does it occur to them, the difference between the truth and getting their own way? Well, seven, eight years of age, they really begin to understand, and the reality testing is better, and they begin to understand.

6:11But even there, children will manipulate and try and get their own way, and you have to help them understand and explain, and explain the consequences of lying and not telling the truth and manipulating. but they don't really understand for a long time. Ophrah, I had a 16-year-old daughter's mom call me. She found a brand new pair of very expensive jeans in her closet. Where did you get these, honey? Oh, those. Yeah, those. Where'd you get them? Oh, a friend gave them to me at school. Who? Oh, you wouldn't know her. Mama used what I call reality discipline. She marched the 16-year-old down to the store, And I don't know what school of psychology those managers go to, but it was a good school because that guy sat down with her and talked about ripping off clothes and what the consequences were.

6:59So I think sometimes parents are afraid to stand in healthy authority over their children, and that's what parents today have to do in 1987 to help protect their kids. Right. Caller, you say what? I am so glad that you have this program on today. It's a little desperation. Do you know how windy it was last night when the weather here in Chicago changed? Oh, yeah. And I have an 8-year-old son who, I have to talk to the psychologist about this, he has an unbelievable fear of wind. Oh. It's paralyzing. He can't sleep. He makes himself so upset, physically upset, that he throws up. Did you hear the wind outside your house last night?

7:42Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, he can, you know, the window, it's an old house. The windows rattle. Yeah. And he hears that, and he feels unsafe. He wouldn't walk to school this morning. Because of the wind. Right. It is pretty windy out there. Well, come on now. I mean, in Chicago yesterday, those of you who are watching around the country, I was in Phoenix yesterday, by the way. Thank you, Phoenix. You all were wonderful. And it was 74 degrees, and you're leaving at 74 degrees. In Chicago, you call home people saying, oh, it's 73 here. It's wonderful. I got off the plane. It was 34 degrees. The temperature dropped 50 degrees in a matter of a couple of hours here yesterday.

8:18It's amazing. Yeah, it did that here. Anyway, it's gotten to the point where sometimes he has to recite a mantra. I gave him a mantra. I am Sammy. I am strong. I can overcome this. He repeats it to himself over and over and over. How old is he? He's eight. Okay. You say what, Dr. Kama? You might want to examine and ask him why he's so afraid of the wind, because there might be something going on in his mind. He may have associated the wind with some television show that he saw a long time ago that frightened him. We don't know what that fear is about. The Wizard of Oz where Dorothy gets blown away.

8:56That's enough to knock you out with the wind for a while. That's right. So you might want to examine and then explain and help him get a realistic understanding of when, the consequences of when the real effect of when and the danger and lack of danger involved in when and explore that it's unlikely that he'll need professional help but maybe but for the most part it's just examining what's going on and helping him take a realistic view and have a realistic understanding of it thank you caller has parenting changed a parent or parents more understanding more tolerant than they were 10 15 years ago or certainly when we were coming up?

9:35Well, sure, parenthood certainly changed. Early in the program, we talked about the danger, stranger danger, I call it. A kid can't sit and have his cereal this morning without looking at the pictures of four little kids who were abducted. Right. And we think we do everyone such a great service by putting these little faces all over America. I'm not so sure, because I'm seeing lots of kids in my private practice who are fearful. They're afraid that people are going to smash their windows at night and rip them off and steal them away. It's frightening. If someone saw me in Tucson, Arizona, where I live, walk through a mall with my little son, age nine, and he's clutched to my hand, they'd say, isn't that nice, father and son?

10:13The reason he's clutched to my hand is he's afraid somebody's going to rip him off.

10:20Hi. I have six-year-old twins and a four-and-a-half-year-old. I do not speak civilly anymore. I scream 24 hours a day, and I feel like I'm repeating the same question over and over. Put your toys away. Put your clothes away. Put your dishes in the sink. Yeah, when you're out in a restaurant with a girlfriend, you excuse yourself, you say, excuse me, Mary Jane, I've got to go potty. You start picking up the lingo. Can I ask you something about your twins? The oldest twin, is he the dominant, or is she the dominant twin? One's more physically dominant, one's more mentally dominant. So they sort of even each other out.

10:52And so when the little ankle-biter battalion moves in on you, you know, it might be good to use what I call reality discipline. When the two kids fight, for example, the constant verbal pawing, she did that, he looked at me, huh, huh, those kind of things. We go in there, many of us, and we say, all right, now who started it? She did, Mommy. Notice how children cooperate. And I say, don't be the Judge Wapner. Don't go in there and try to be the judge and jury. But take both children, place them in the same room. Same room, they deserve each other. they do not come out until they've solved their little verbal point and usually that will do it a little time out a little swift action on your part will preclude a lot of problems yeah but she needs to get away too you need to hire a good babysitter neighbors and family thank you but caller you say what you're on hello hi oprah i have three children ages nine seven and six and my husband and i are having a problem with trying to instill discipline on them and what they are ending up doing is ganging up on us.

11:59For example, one of them let the dog out. We have a new puppy. And the puppy got like three miles away from the house. And we finally found the puppy. We came home. We said, where, who, who let the puppy out? And each one of them said, I don't know. Of course. Yeah. You know, and so what my husband and I have done is put up work charts, trying to get them to make their beds, rewarding them, you know, with a star system, black marks for if it's a bad day and everything. And it works great for the first week. And then they're ganging up on us again, saying, he did it, she did it. Yeah, they're the enemy.

12:37We established that earlier. Yes. So what I'd like to know, is there any way to instill discipline in them without, like the previous talker said, screaming your lungs out and acting like a mad woman? Right. I think the second method you use, I would hang with it a while, because what you're really trying to do is rather than establish control yourself and maintain control on your own, you're trying to help the children develop some inner personal control and personal responsibility by organizing what it is they're supposed to do. If you can come to some agreement on what it is they're supposed to do, talk it out together as to what the rules and regulations ought to be, the task ought to be, and then have them responsible for achieving those goals rather than trying to control them and make them do things.

13:29The more you make them do things, the more they try and undermine what it is you're up to. And so have them responsible for establishing some of the goals, regulations, rules, and work towards that and reward them. Don't you need to assert some kind of discipline, though? I have noticed that there's a difference. I mean, just for my generation, I think things have changed now because we're all a little more assimilated, but for my generation, black parents certainly tended to raise their children differently than white parents. I used to hear white parents would say, Robin, mommy wants to know why you're exhibiting such poor behavior.

14:05Robin, mommy wants to know, you're three years old, why you've destroyed the entire house. And black parents say, Crescendo, legal of want to eat, get your butt over here, girl. You see, so someone was telling me they heard a parent yesterday sitting out on the lake saying, you whine so much, you whine so much, you always getting in my business. If you don't shut up, I'm gonna kick you across this lake. So there is certainly a cultural difference in, you know, black children understand I'm gonna get my butt kicked across the lake, so I better shut up. Yeah, I think there's a difference. Hello, caller, you say what?

14:40Hi, Oprah. I have a good one for you. I have three children. My two oldest ones were really never whiners. My third one was a whiner from the time he was born. We decided to go out for dinner, and he constantly whines. He wants his ice cream first. My husband and I got together. We're going to gain up on him. What we did was, naturally, he cried for his ice cream. My husband and I, after dinner, got up, took our other two children, paid the bill, and left them sitting in the high chair. He never whined again. The waitress was clued in on this, and she let him out after two minutes and let him run out the door.

15:14But he never whined again. Good. Good for you. If that works, whatever works. You wanted to say what? Well, reality discipline, that sounds close to what I write about. I know all of you are sitting there gas saying, my goodness, what should you do? But I remember being in a restaurant and my daughter chose to throw her first temper tantrum right there. And the manager comes over with a balloon. And this balloon is going to solve the problem, right? And just that time, Holly grabs a sugar container with a chrome top on it and backhands it, smashes it at the guy's feet. Well, what do you do, psychologist, father?

15:46I follow my own book's advice. I picked Holly up by her left earlobe, put her under my arm. I'm going out the restaurant door and the whole place is like E.F. Hutton is talking. All the eyes were, I mean, the first thing I saw was this great big trash barrel. I thought, well, no, I know that's not right. But, you know, that kind of taking a child out or playing shockey with children is really not a bad form of discipline. Parents today are afraid. They say, uh... Yeah, I've seen children in the middle of tantrums, and their parents are saying, now this isn't good behavior. Oh, just step over the child.

16:21There's a great temptation to step on the child. If you step over the child and start walking away, you're going to hear it. Mommy, mommy, wait for me. Because that's a little kid's way of saying, I am an authority over you, parent. Yeah, you say it. My five-year-old has a terrible fear of being stranded somewhere. I can take him to school or to basketball practice, but his first question is, is there a phone? Who's picking me up? And if they're 10 minutes late, he's in tears. He'll call me from a neighbor's house to make sure I'm at home. Is that a firstborn son? Yes. How did I know that? In the birth order, by the way, this is not the child to leave any place, as we just talked about, leaving a child in a high chair or something like this.

17:00But this is a child that's probably a perfectionist, a detailed person. Mommy, what time are we going to leave? Around 9. No, Mommy, what time are we going to leave? You learn to say things like, we will leave the parking lot at 9.03. Thanks, Mom. That's it.

17:19You wanted to say, Dr. Cummer, you wanted to say something, yes? No, on the point about black children and the assertive discipline. And assertive discipline is very important, useful, and there are times when you should be very assertive. Parents who are assertive and also caring and guiding and supportive, that's fine. You have to be careful when you're assertive and controlling and kind of over-control your children. The danger there is that you can be setting them up to be controlled by other people who may not be as caring as you are. I'm going to kick your butt across this lake. It's not appropriate.

17:55That's right. Yes, yes, yes. My question is about adolescence. I have a 12-year-old who used to be enthusiastic about everything. Now everything I present to her is boring. She slumps her shoulders and that's it. How can I rejuvenate that enthusiasm, or is it impossible for 10 more years? Well, you know, it's really funny. Here's a kid that's 12 years old who's halfway obedient, and all of a sudden they hit the hormone group, and they go weird on you. They're up three hours before the school bus, and they comb their hair, and they call each other and ask what they're going to wear. I always remind parents, hey, the good things, all the hard work you put in kids before they hit that tunnel of darkness it seems like, called adolescence, is going to pay off.

18:44You've got to stay with those kids. And even though they look like they don't want you to be in their life, they say things like, get off my case, get off my life, give me space, I need space. You've still got to stay with those kids. And you've got to tell them every day. Dr. Comer's point was so good about you don't want to just control children. You've got to tell kids that you love them. You won't always be able to hug that 12-year-old in public because they will sink right to the floor. but they always have to know that you care and stay with them close caller you say what thank you very much color yes uh i'm calling concerning my five-year-old daughter uh now so far the past five years i've managed to just about solve everything that's come along but this one's got me stumped she is a toddler she will take a mouthful of pudding and make it last 27 minutes as she stands out the window.

19:35I get her up for school in the morning, and I tell her, you have half an hour to eat breakfast. At 7.30, when we get sit down, I tell her, eat your food, you have half an hour, enjoy your cereal. 8 o 'clock, she's still on her second spoonful. What do I do? I have tried everything, including just whisking the food away to the sink, putting her coat on and marching her out the door. I don't want to deprive her of food, but how do I get her to stop dawdling? Dawdling is being paid off in her life. It's being rewarded by mom. And I have a friend, Dr. James Dobson, who would call your child a strong-willed child.

20:13I'd call her a powerful little buzzard. But any way you look at it, the mechanics, the emotions that's going on, this kid is powerful, and you're coaxing and pushing and bribing. I like the idea of taking the plate, running to the garbage disposal, a quick flick of the wrist, and breakfast is over. And some people are thinking, not feed your child. Call your pediatrician and ask him this question. Will a child die if he misses a meal? And the good news is they won't die. And that or set a time limit for food to be digested and at the end of a half hour clean the table off. That's it. They won't die and they'll stop missing the meal, too.

20:52They'll come back. And you can predict they're going to eat at noon. Right. Yes, you wanted to say what. Thank you, caller. Yes, I have a three-year-old, a four-year-old, and a five-year-old. I'm a desperate mother. My husband just returned from a two-week business trip, and this seems to be where most of my problems stem off. As soon as he leaves, the three - and four-year-old boys go into wrecking sprees, and during a two-day period this last trip, they painted my television with deodorant pads, they spun the chandelier on the dining room table. I turned just in time to see it falling to the table.

21:25They cut a hunk out of a new pillow sham on my bed. They gave each other haircuts, and they looked worse than chemotherapy patients when they were finished. Now, they dumped water down their heater duct vent that it came down in through to their playroom in the next room. They decorated their bedroom with baby shampoo and baby conditioner, and then when I bought a carpet steam machine cleaner to clean it, and they dumped water down the motor of the carpet machine. and oh they set my thermostat from heat to air conditioning last week and we had a 51 degree house to wake up to so you know it's I and I'm not leaving them alone I you know I I've learned to panic at quiet you know I hear quiet and I run because I know something's up Dr.

22:11Comer will answer your question

22:16It sounds like time for assertive discipline, but it also sounds like you said that it happens when your husband goes away. And the question is, it sounds like they are unhappy about his going away. You're going to have to talk to them about why he's going away, and he's going to have to talk to them about why he's going away, and what kind of behavior he expects while he's away. But the behavior is probably related to his coming and going. It won't be as drastic as replacing the husband or replacing the boys. Well, you know, I think we're, I'm outspoken on this subject, but I think that we've been, a lot of us have been brought up to think a woman's place is in the home.

22:55A man's place is in the home. And parenthood isn't woman's work. And us men need to roll our sleeves up and become positive influences in our kids' lives, especially daddies to daughters. He's watching the little darlings this morning. Oh, God bless him. That's great. He came back last night, and I said, I think I deserve this break. That's wonderful. So when he's there with them, do they do these kinds of things when he's there alone with them? Maybe he could call in. No, no, really. The problems are mostly when he goes away. And, you know, they're relatively good kids, and I do love them dearly.

23:28You know, God help me. If anybody would ever try and take them away or anything, I do appreciate and love my kids 98 % of the time, I would say. We understand. We understand. Yeah, Dr. Beebe. Oh, I'm not a doctor. I'm just a mother. That isn't just a mother. But my so-called expertise is just talking to thousands of parents. And a lot of parents do have a hard time figuring out what to do when children misbehave. It's the hardest area of all to deal with. And since every child is different and every parent is different and every parent's method of parenting is different, it's hard to give a clear answer on this.

24:04But certainly your husband, it's obviously related to when your husband leaves. And, you know, again, as Dr. Comer said, you talk to the children about how they're feeling and work it out with them, what they think they better do when he's going to be good. Caller, you say what? You're on the air. Hello. Hi. Yeah, I have a two-and-a-half-year-old, and I'm expecting my second in a couple weeks. Now, there's certain nights that it takes an hour and a half to two hours to get her to sleep. It'll be 1030, and I'll be falling asleep on the floor in a room. And I just don't, I know I'm not going to have that much time on my hands.