Serial Killer John Wayne Gacy's Sister and Mass Murderer Jim Jones' Son Speak Out

0:00Through 25 seasons, 4 ,561 episodes, I believe The Oprah Winfrey Show is one of the greatest classrooms in the world. I really never thought of it that way. The aha moments, the breakthroughs, the connections, the occasional ugly cry. I'm missing so terribly. I miss it every single minute. The LOLs, the moments that mattered, the eye-opening life lessons. Never allow them to take you somewhere else. I'm bringing them back. It's time to open the vault. I've personally chosen these classic episodes to share with you again. Every single person you ever will meet shares that common desire. They want to know, do you see me?

0:47Do you hear me? Does what I say mean anything to you? You are listening to The Oprah Winfrey Show, the podcast. We've all heard the expression, don't drink the Kool-Aid, which means don't just go blindly along with the crowd. Think for yourself. But do you know where that term comes from? The 1978 Jonestown Massacre, where more than 900 Americans all drank a Kool-Aid-like beverage, it wasn't actually Kool-Aid, laced with poisonous cyanide. 900 people. That's everybody in this room multiplied by three. 900 people. It was the biggest mass murder-suicide in modern history, and it was masterminded by this man, Jim Jones, the leader of the People's Temple.

1:42Here's how it all began. In 1956, Jim Jones was a young and dynamic preacher with a big voice and a radical message for the times, racial equality. I represent divine principle, total equality, a society where people own all things in common, whether there is no rich or poor, whether there are no races. Jones created his own church in Indiana and called it the People's Temple. Practicing what he preached, Jones and his wife, Marceline, had what they called a rainbow family. We were called the rainbow family because out of the seven kids that we had, we had an African-American, We had two Korean Americans from Seoul, Korea.

2:25And then we had HomeAid, a natural son. In 1965, Jim Jones moved his family and the People's Temple to the progressive state of California. It was the turbulent 60s and the People's Temple offered what many were seeking. What he spoke about were things that were in our hearts. The government was not taking care of the people. There were too many poor people out there. There were poor children. When I joined People's Temple in the spring of 1966, there were exactly 81 members. Five years later, an extended family of 80 people had become an organization of thousands. As the movement grew, so did Reverend Jones' demands of his followers.

3:15They signed over their paychecks, life savings, and even their homes. But in the 70s, as Jim Jones grew more powerful, he claimed he could miraculously heal the sick. Now, is the pain gone? Oh, great! A darker side of Jim Jones was emerging, and rumors of sexual and physical abuse at the People's Temple began to spread. I was in a lot of the meetings where people were spanked or beaten, and I was slapped once also in a public meeting. Threatened by growing media and government scrutiny, Jones sent an advance team to the jungles of Guyana, South America, to build what would be their utopia, Jonestown.

4:04So in 1977, with Jonestown almost complete, Jim Jones ordered his followers to move with him to Guyana. Nearly a thousand people dropped everything and moved to South America, where they believed heaven on earth awaited them.

4:27We all wanted to go. I wanted to go. It looked like freedom. Just everyone, we're a happy family. Yes, we are. Jonestown was a well-planned community with a clinic, school, and communal kitchen. flour, rice, black-eyed peas, Kool-Aid. But as Jonestown flourished, their leader's behavior grew increasingly bizarre. In Jonestown, there was a speaker system, and only Jim spoke on it, and it went 24 hours a day, and he would tape himself. So in the middle of the night, all through the night, his voice was talking to you. Give us our liberty or give us our death. Over the summer of 1978, all of us noticed that Jim seemed to be getting sicker.

5:19It was widely rumored that Jim was abusing drugs, amphetamines, percodone, and even heroin. His harangues over the loudspeaker were getting more and more frantic and really just sounding more and more insane. We choose our death, and no one chooses it for us. Back in the States, former church members began complaining that Jones was holding their loved ones against their will. So California Congressman Leo Ryan traveled to Jonestown with a handful of reporters to investigate the allegations. The People's Temple welcomed him with a party.

6:00I think that all of you know that I'm here to find out more about their operation here. I can tell you right now there are some people here who believe that this is the best thing that ever happened in their whole life.

6:16But later that evening, a Jonestown resident passed a note to one of the reporters saying he was being held against his will. The next morning, more and more defectors came forward. Now do I both understand you to say that you both want to leave Jones town on this date, November 1878? Yeah. Though Jim Jones appeared calm before the cameras, behind the scenes he had ordered what he called his avenging angels to take action. They ambushed the congressman and his crew at the airstrip.

6:55Congressman Ryan and four others were killed in the shootout. Back at Jonestown, Jim Jones called an emergency meeting. The congress is dead. You think they're going to allow us to get by with this? If we can't live in peace, we must die in peace. Jones presented to his followers a large metal vat filled with a great drink laced with cyanide. First mothers were ordered to feed the deadly potion to their babies, then drink it themselves. Die with respect, die with the degree of dignity. Mother, mother, mother, mother, please. Put down your life with your child.

7:47Tim Carter is one of only seven who survived the mass suicide at Jonestown. I looked to my right and I saw my wife with our son in her arms and poison being injected into his mouth. My son was dead and he was frothing at the mouth. My wife died in my arms and my dead baby son was in her arms. and I held her and said, I love you, I love you, because that's all I could say. It was like...

8:23She died in my arms, man. Jim Jones Jr. also lost his family that day. In the mass suicide, I lost my wife, my unborn child, my mother and father. Quickly, quickly, quickly, quickly, quickly.

8:44It still seems unbelievable. 909 people, including nearly 300 children, died a painful death at Jonestown. Another five people were shot and killed at the airstrip. They were coming, taking like newborn babies out of the mother's arms. Quickly, quickly, quickly, quickly, quickly. Where's the vat, the vat, the vat? Right here so the adults can begin. We were just slaughtered. We were f***ing slaughtered. There was nothing dignified about it. It was just senseless waste. Senseless waste and death.

9:31Those were two eyewitnesses who survived the Jonestown Massacre. For those of you who are too young or who might not remember, the Reverend Jim Jones ordered more than 900 of his followers to drink a poison-laced grape beverage, making it the biggest mass murder-suicide in history. Jim Jones, his wife, Marceline, two of their children and five of their grandchildren died that day. Three of their sons were spared. Here is how. Jim Jones Jr. remembers it. On November 18, 1978, I was in Georgetown, Guyana with the basketball team. That is the day that my father radioed to me that they were visiting Miss Frazier, which was code for committing suicide.

10:21Jim and his two brothers were 150 miles away from Jonestown, playing in a basketball tournament when he answered his father's shocking call. I couldn't believe it. When he told me that this is what he planned to do, I argued with him. I said, can't there... Isn't there another way? Can't we do something else? My father told us to find knives, piano wire, poison if we were able to find it, and commit suicide. When I received those instructions to kill myself, I didn't believe it. I couldn't understand it. I was concerned about my loved ones, my family, my wife. I didn't know if they would...

11:15drink the Kool-Aid. Well, at the time of the massacre, Jim Jones Jr. was 18. When you heard, obviously, refused your father's command to kill yourself... Yes. and you tried to talk him out of it, and then you went and told whom? Well, we went to the U.S. Embassy and tried to find out what was going on. We had gotten the report that they were going to commit Ms. Frazier, which is the code word for committing to reference. Because had he had practice runs before? Yes. You know, in Jonestown Prior, they had practice drills of suicide. And when I say practice drills of suicide, it was test of loyalty.

11:53People would line up and, you know, pledge their life to the cause. And what was the cause? Well, the cause was the non-isms. Non-isms. Yeah, the non-isms. When I say non-isms, non-racism, non-sexism, non-ageism. The class system of coming out of the 60s and 70s, we had this white versus black. We had this haves and have-nots. And that's what people's temple really was. So he was trying to create a utopian society where if you come with me, You will not be discriminated against. You will not have to suffer because you're poor. You won't have to, you know, we're going to have the perfect society.

12:34We're going to create a new world. We're going to create a new world. Yeah. And that's what people believe. Yeah. And that's what I believe. Were these smart people, educated people? We had a whole gamut. Okay. Doctors, lawyers, teachers. But we also had another gamut. We had, I think People's Temple was like almost 70 % African-American. Mm-hmm. And what a vessel for African-Americans at that time. But were there doctors and lawyers who were African-American at the time? Yes. The common theme was people wanted to make a difference. When were you adopted by Jim Jones? Ten weeks old. Ten weeks old.

13:05Ten weeks old in Indiana. I heard you were the first black kid ever adopted by a white family. Yeah. As the story goes, I was the first African-American child adopted by a Caucasian family instead of Indiana. Look at you. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. It's been a long time over. I understand. So this was your father? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I loved him as a son. I loved my father. I took great pride in being a son. Was it difficult being the first black kid adopted by a white family? I didn't know. You didn't know? No. You didn't know you were black? Well, no. Actually, Oprah, I didn't. Okay, that's what I'm asking.

13:45No, I didn't because I had Koreans in the family. I just thought I had a better tan. I really thought I had... Really? Yeah, because when you have Koreans in your family, They're a little darker than white, but, you know. I had a blonde-haired blue-eyed brother. I had homemade, the natural son. I remember going to San Francisco. Is that what you all called him, homemade? Well, yeah. I remember going to San Francisco and seeing other African-Americans and thinking that was my biological family. Really? Because that was, I mean, there was no race. There was no race in your family. You were Jimmy, Steve, or Lou.

14:20And that's why people were coming to the church, because you could be a part of something that wasn't... We were a rainbow family. Okay.

14:30He had gotten to the place that even his voice was becoming... Every day it was getting worse and worse. United States is calling for the removal of all blacks and Indians. So is England. We heard people on the tape say, during the last year you could see that Jim Jones was becoming more and more detached and more crazy, literally. Could you see that as his son? You know, I probably was one of the last true believers. So you couldn't see the craziness? I didn't want to see it, Oprah. I got to be honest. I didn't want to see it. I always thought the end justifies the means. Okay. So I heard, too, that he was having multiple affairs with mistresses and had many mistresses and...

15:15Yes. This went on for years prior to Jonestown. I remember as a young child in my early teens going on vacations and going a week with a mistress with my brothers and then my mother coming for the second week. Was your mother aware? Yes, she was. She was. How did you justify that in your head? Well, I didn't justify it, but what I was told is people needed my father. The women that he was with needed him. Yeah, needed him. And so you were resentful of that. You were resentful of how it affected your family, but then you also felt, you know, he has to do this for the people. You know, we're building a new world, you know.

15:56So it's interesting to say, but I drank the Kool-Aid before it was even served. Yeah, because you're indoctrinated by this man. That was my bubble. Yes, that was your bubble. So what was it? This is what none of us could understand at the time and still today can't answer. Why would 900 people agree to do that? Well, Oprah, I can't answer that question except I can just explain it to you, the mindset. There's 900 people that have been told, the congressman has been shocked, that they have been told, if you listen to the tapes, people were going to come in and take their children away. They were going to separate.

16:36They were going to invade our community. My father's words were we needed to lay down our lives in protest. But what he does, very manipulative, he has the children ingest the cyanide first. And Oprah, I mean, I have three boys. And I got to tell you, if I saw my kids dying, why would I want to live? He created that vacuum. When you see the syringes and needles, I don't think everybody lined up. So some people were forced against their will, is what you're saying. And weren't there guards there to shoot people if they didn't drink the Kool-Aid? Yeah. So your wife and your unborn child died that day.

17:15Wife, unborn child, brother and sister, their children, and then my mother and father, Jim and Marceline. Did you want to not live? Yes. Yeah. I didn't think you wouldn't. No, I mean, to me, there was no reason to go forward. Yeah. I came back to the States. And why didn't you change your name? Well, I did. I did. I did. I went by James Jones. Very common for many years. And it wasn't until about 15 years later, I'd gone to school and worked hard and I worked up my way to be a director of a cardiopulmonary department at the hospital. Because of the acronyms behind my name, they had to shorten James and they put Jim.

17:58So I walk up to my great new job as being a director of a department and I see Jim Jones, it was at that moment, Oprah, that's who I am. You know, I realize that's who I am. I'm Jim Jones Jr. I am a part of an organization that tried to build a new world. I mean, 9 and a half people died, Oprah, and I miss them every day. But I also recognize that they tried. They tried something. They failed horrifically. But they tried. And out of that, I took a lot of pride. to realize that's who I'm Jim Jones Jr. I can't hide from that. So you don't hate your father? No, I don't. You know, I've forgiven him.

18:42You've forgiven him? Yeah. And I think out of that... Was he mentally ill? Yes. And that's where I forgive him. I think when you look at the changes in him and what has happened... Was it mentally ill or did he... Was he on drugs? Was he taking... I think it's almost like a cocktail. The mental illness was exacerbated by the drug abuse and the absolute power where no one challenged him. You put that cocktail together and the mind can spiral out of control. And that's what Jim Jones did. He spiraled out of control and self-destructed. And by him self-destruction, he took 900 people with him.

19:27I went back to Jonestown about the 20th anniversary. and I took my sons with me. The reason why I did that is I wanted them to walk the ground of Jonestown, to understand what it is to stand in Jonestown. I knew they would have their own impression and they would hear their own stories of Jonestown, but I wanted to give them a foundation of what kind of world was trying to be created in. It wasn't until I actually returned to Jonestown, I'm looking for an answer, looking for the why. Why it happened, what caused it, why did I survive? And when I got there, the only thing I could find was the tub, the tin tub that the vat of Kool-Aid was stored in.

20:19There it is. And grass had grown over it. And when I found that, I knew there weren't any answers why, that more of how can I move on with my life.

20:32So if you'd been in Jonestown on that day, do you think you would have drunk the Kool-Aid? You know, Oprah, I've asked that question. Mm-hmm. And when I look at my wife, my mother, my family, who ingested the Kool-Aid, I cannot say I wouldn't have. Mm-hmm. In respect of they did it. Well, the other thing is what choice would you have had? Well, and why wouldn't I have lined up also? Because I believed that we were going to be invaded. Well, the point is, when we ask and still are asking, how do 900 people agree to do that, they had already been brainwashed, as you had already been brainwashed.

21:06And so the fact that you all are practicing suicide raids and were this indoctrinated before, that's why it was easy to carry out. And as you hear him on the tape, Jim Jones saying, quickly, quickly, quickly, quickly, doing it. Wow. And then when the kids die first. And that was a part of the strategy. That was part of the strategy, yeah. How could I say, well, I don't want to give up my life? Yeah, but it is still, I have to tell you, and I know for every mother here, it's incomprehensible that you would give cyanide to your child. Well, Jim escaped the massacre because he was playing in a basketball tournament 150 miles away from Jonestown, and he says basketball actually saved his life.

21:48Twice. I think I hit rock bottom 15 to 18 years after Jonestown. I have I had found solace in alcoholism I had found solace in drugs Became emotionally unavailable to my family To my wife, to my children And it was at the point or at the stage To where she was willing to take that all away from me To protect her children That I realized that the cycle of dysfunction had to stop And I had to move on To save my family I stopped drinking stop using drugs. And I found something that my son gave me as a gift that we could connect on, and that was basketball. Something that I denied myself because of guilt, and that saved me.

22:40So when people say sports saved my life, sports saved my life twice. If I wasn't playing basketball in Georgetown, when the Jonestown event happened, I wouldn't be alive. And 15, 20 years later, if it wasn't for the gift of that, my son and his passion and love for basketball, it wouldn't have brought me back. Today, Jim's oldest son, Rob, is making a name for himself on the basketball court. For years, everywhere I went, people who knew me knew me as the son of Jim Jones. Now, with great pride and great honor, it's nice to be known as the father of Rob Jones, the basketball player. That's great.

23:21That's really great. That's really great. Well, as you saw, Jim is married with three sons. So how did your children actually find out about your past? Well, you know, I shared a lot of stories with them about their grandfather, stories of playing ball together or different trips we went on. The most powerful story that Rob told me once was he was walking out of his high school class, and one of his friends came up to and goes, hey, Rob, we were talking about Jim Jones in our history class. And Rob goes, yeah, that was my grandfather. To him, it's all stories. Well, see, this is amazing to me that there isn't, or maybe you've already been through this phase, but I would think that there would be such guilt and shame and resentment and all of that connected to...

24:10You know, Oprah, I think... It'd be easy, but that's why this is so interesting to me. Don't y 'all think? Because it would be so easy to dismiss the first 17 years of your life and say, boy, this is a horrible, horrible, horrible person. And move on. And move on and say, I want to banish that from my life. But you're saying that... You know, Oprah, I think what I did with myself and I did with my children is I wanted to embrace it. You wanted to embrace it? And when I embrace it, I don't have to hide from it. That's really good. You know what I mean? That's really good. And because of my embracement, my kids don't have a stigma with it.

24:45That's really interesting. You know what I mean? Yeah. So... We can learn a lot from you. Well, I... Because everybody has stuff in their past that people have done in their families they're embarrassed about or ashamed of or carrying that around. But you are proof that you don't have to let it be the burden to you. Well, by the grace of God and a great wife. Yeah, a great wife. A great wife. Listen to your wife, Jim. Thank you very much. Thank you, Jim.

25:13None of my neighbors here, nobody knows who I am, really. They know what my last name is and they know that I work hard in the community. But they don't know anything about my background because that's a part of my life that I had to bury.

25:34I like to talk about my brother, the brother I knew. and he wasn't the person that killed anybody. He was kind. He was loving. He was always there to help me. He was an uncle to my children who they dearly loved and dearly remember. Karen's brother was one of the most prolific serial killers of our time, John Wayne Gacy. Anybody under 35 might not remember him, but back in 1978 when he was arrested, it was the grisliest story of the century. He was not only one of the craziest, but one of the scariest human beings because he functioned in normal society. At 25 years old, John Wayne Gacy was a family man with a wife and two children.