Special: A Mother's Controversial Confession

0:00Through 25 seasons, 4 ,561 episodes, I believe The Oprah Winfrey Show is one of the greatest classrooms in the world. I really never thought of it that way. The aha moments, the breakthroughs, the connections, the occasional ugly cry. I miss him so terribly. I miss him every single minute. The LOLs. The moments that mattered. The eye-opening life lessons. Never allow them to take you somewhere else. I'm bringing them back. It's time to open the vault. I've personally chosen these classic episodes to share with you again. Every single person you ever will meet shares that common desire. They want to know, do you see me?

0:47Do you hear me? Does what I say mean anything to you? You are listening to The Oprah Winfrey Show, the podcast. I want you to brace yourselves because you're about to hear one mother's really controversial confession. She revealed it in a very provocative New York Times article, and in it she boldly proclaimed, I love my husband more than I love my children. Ayelet Waldman, a mother of four, also says her children are not the center of her universe, And that is the key reason she says she and her husband have a very passionate sex life. She is a mother who says she loves her husband more than her kids, and she is swinging from the chandeliers.

1:39Oh, boy. Did she strike a nerve. How do you measure your passion for your children and your husband? I think this is a woman who clearly did not want to have children. And I think that she's doing a disservice to her children, to her husband, and to herself, and especially the family unit as a whole. I thought that her point of view was sort of silly. You can't actually compare the type of love that exists between two grown adults and that bond that you have between a mother and a child. The way she puts her husband on a pedestal is dangerous because she loses him, her whole world crumbles. What she said might seem hurtful to her kids someday if they ever read that.

2:18She shouldn't have had children, if that's how she's gonna feel about having kids. I think Ayelet has an obsessive relationship with her husband. I think Ayelet really needs to reclaim a sense of self. I questioned Ayelet's security in her marriage. I thought Ayelet's article was goofy. My children are first, my husband and I come second. It makes me think, you know, what are her children, chopped liver? Whoa! Okay, so I'm here with a group of mothers who have a lot to say about this. The woman who sparked this controversy, Ayelet Wallman, is here. Ayelet is a Harvard-trained lawyer turned stay-at-home mother turned writer who has been married to Pulitzer Prize-winning author Michael Chabon for 12 years, and they have four children.

3:06So let me read the passage that has everybody up in arms. She says, I have four children, but I'm not in love with any of them. I am in love with my husband. If a good mother is one who loves her child more than anyone else in the world, then I'm not a good mother. I am, in fact, a bad mother. I love my husband more than my children. I yell it. You knew that you were going out on a limb, did you not, when you wrote it? Well, I did. I didn't quite know that Star Jones was going to take off after me on The View. I didn't know I'd be sitting here next to you. I didn't know that I'd be facing down a group of angry mothers.

3:42But I did, you know, I had been experiencing this again and again in moms groups. I'm like a lot of you. I spent a long time just a stay-at-home mom. Now I work part-time. But I have four kids. I spend most of my day with my children. And I have felt for a long time very different than most of the moms that I know. Tell us, you start the article talking about your mommy group, and you noticed in the conversation all the mothers talking about their not having sex. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the interesting thing was I was talking to a mom, and she was telling me about how she was trying to have a second kid, but it wasn't going very well.

4:18And I said, you should try one of those electronic fertility monitors because they tell you when you ovulate, like right that day. And she said, oh, great. Then I won't have to have all that unnecessary sex. I thought, you know, there's a reason that everyone is so angry. This is striking a chord. This is a real issue. Okay. Tara Brown, why do you say Ayelet is doing a disservice to her family? Why? Well, I believe that children are such a gift. And I think that there is a healthy balance that can be formed with the family, not necessarily putting one above the other, per se. Oh, I think that's a really good point.

4:55And I think so many women today have become so focused on their children. They've developed these romantic entanglements with their children's lives, and the husbands are secondary. They're left out. And the romantic focus is on the children. I mean, you guys know Valentine's Day at your kids' schools. What happens on Valentine's Day? All the moms come in with, you know, perfect frosted pink cupcakes that they've made with their kids. Well, what's Valentine's Day? Is Valentine's a day to make cupcakes with your children? No, Valentine's supposed to be a day about, you know, romantic love. I know you guys probably don't believe me, but I love my children as much as any of you loves your children.

5:36But my husband is the focus of my romantic devotion, and he is the one I am in love with. He is the one I feel ardor for. He is the one who quickens my heart. Kelly, you say you had a light bulb moment. Kelly? I just realized I've given all my energy and passion and love into my little girl. And I don't think that's wrong, but the article made me see that I need to give some of that to my husband, too. You know, he needs me as well. and I just felt that I needed to find a little bit better balance, because he's been put on the back burner, and you don't want to all of a sudden discover that you don't have anything in common anymore or what to talk to.

6:15Ayelet also writes very candidly about her sex life. She says, I'm the only woman in Mommy and Me who seems to be getting any. I have to say, you are the only woman I have ever heard say this, because I, you know, I talk to women for a living, And all I ever hear is how women are sick of having sex. They still love their husbands, but they're sick of having sex with their husbands, and everybody's so tired. Oh, they're so tired. Everybody's so tired, and they spend so much time with their children. They're so tired. And I love my husband, but I could care less if I ever had sex again. Okay. Who is this that has sex, who watches TV when you're having sex?

6:58Who is that? Okay. You know what? What I have said is that... Wait, what are you watching on TV? Are you watching Wheel of... It's Oprah.

7:10Well, are we all of it? You're watching... Are we all of it? Are we all of it? Okay. No, I said on the occasion, on the occasion that I am just too exhausted after the third night in a row, I may watch TV. While you're having sex? While he does his business. Nobody said she was having sex. But I'm satisfying his needs. No. No, you're not. And I can't be into it 100 % of the time, all the time. So the TV's on and you're watching it and he knows it. And it's okay. And it's okay. It's okay. This is really true. And the thing is, what I hear, what I would hear in these mommies group is, well, men are different from women.

7:48Men need it more than women. And the thing, you know, what I wanted to say is, if you think that's true, do you imagine that the men are just not doing it? I mean, what? I don't want to... Go there. Go ahead. Go there. Do you really? No, go there. No, go there, because I was going to say this. I just did a show just like this. I was sitting in a room for two hours with all husbands who cheated. It's so interesting. You all should watch that show, because all of the husbands talked about women, their wives, who gave everything to the children and to everything else and not to them. And I think that wives and mothers think that their husbands should understand.

8:34I've heard women say that they should understand, well, my child needs to be nurtured and taken care of, and you don't need to be nurtured and taken care of the way they do. So you should understand that my attention is gone to that person. Am I right? Yeah. Okay, now let me ask you, did you all notice, was there a shift after your children came? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. OK, was there anybody here going to admit other than you that you have put your husband on the back burner? Sometimes. Sometimes. But I try to be a loving wife. And the days that I say, OK, tonight's your night, honey. But if we're in the middle of lovemaking, and I hear one of the children scream or anything, my maternal instinct kicks in.

9:15And I'm out the door. Hey, catch you later. I go to a baby when he's crying. But at the same time, that's not what I'm talking about. And I don't just think it's about being tired. I think there's something deeper. I think there's... I don't mean just physically tired. Yeah, no, exactly. But I see so many people that I've seen, Mommy and me, and I see so many of my friends, and I see so many of the women that I know who have left demanding, exciting careers and have chosen to stay home. There is this kind of dissatisfaction sometimes that translates itself sometimes in some people to a kind of low-level anger.

9:53And I think there is a kind of depression that some people are experiencing when they've taken all their ambition and all of their focus and shifted that to their children. And I see so many of my friends who are not... It's not just that they're tired from the exhaustion of having children. They're... It's not just that they don't want to have sex. It's... I think sometimes they don't want to have sex with their husbands. Okay, and do you think also, too, Do you say that sometimes the wives' passion has been refocused from their husband to their kids? Right. But why do you say that you can love your husband and not your children, though?

10:28No, you've absolutely misunderstood. I did not say I love my husband and not my children. I'm sorry. You said that you love your husband, but you are not in love with your children. I'm not. Absolutely. Okay. I'm not in love with my children. What I'm saying... What does that mean? Let me explain it. What I've seen is that we are totally out of balance. So many women have taken our children, we've replaced them as the objects of our romantic entanglements, and instead of having our partners, we've replaced them. Now listen, sex is a symptom of this. I'm not the woman who says, wrap yourself in some beautiful saran wrap and greet your husband at the door.

11:08The sex is a symptom of what's happened when marriages are so focused on the children that you lose sight of your partner, and you have to start thinking about, you know, when's the last time we took a date night? Okay.

11:24Sex. Before children, it was wonderful. It was all the time. After children, it was nonexistent. Your marriage changes so drastically when you have kids. Like, after you have four children, my libido is just shot. I don't show as much interest as he would like because I'm so much on autopilot, you know. You just feel like, okay, tonight I know I'm going to need to have sex. But then the next day, you're free. We go out once a month and we hang out with the girls. And it's a joke amongst us, you know, whose husband's going to be waiting up? You know, we're dog tired. We stayed out way too late.

12:07We pull into the subdivision. We look to see whose house has the light on. And our light on means that our husbands are waiting for us to have sex.

12:19Okay.

12:24Okay, now, Leanne just told us that she watches TV sometimes because she's just not into it, and I can't... I don't know if I'm happy I'm in the room with you or not at that time. Thank you, though. Thank you. I'm just tired. Thank you. Now, Laura, you're not thrilled about the prospect of sex, right? What I wanted to say is I think that your marriage changes. I don't have a lot of time right now because my kids are very small, but my husband and I know that someday they won't be, and there will be more time for us. That's what I'm thinking. It changes. That's what you're banking on. Yeah. Okay, what are you saying?

12:56What do you say? Ladies, a lot of us are married and our husbands are like roommates to us, and that's not what marriage was designed for. Yes, I love my children. I have two beautiful girls. But I love my husband. I agree with you. When our children grow up, they're going to go to college, they're going to grow up, and they're going to leave the home. And our husbands are going to be left there wondering what happened all of those years that they were there. And so we have to, yes, find balance. And I believe that the husband is first priority. I've been married 30 years. I've been married for 30 years.

13:30And this is my youngest child, Lisa. And my husband came home from work one day, and he sat at the dinner table, and I was nursing my firstborn. And he came home, and he said, I've lost my best friend. And I looked at him and said, Who? Who's your friend? I mean, who did you lose? I just felt so bad for him that he lost this best friend. And he looked at me, and he said, You. Just for a split second, I wanted to yell at him and say, Look, this baby needs me. You don't. And then I saw the look on his face, and I knew that I could be the best mom in the world, and I could be the best wife. But I had to prioritize what I was thinking.

14:16And women, if you're thinking that you just can give to one and not the other, you can't do that. Because if your kids are grown like mine are, if I didn't have that relationship with him, there wouldn't be anything. Yeah. But we have... This is one of the things I've learned. One of the things we talk about often on this show, and the thing that causes affairs the most, you know, and divorce, 57 % of the country, it isn't working, their marriages aren't working, is the disconnect. And so everybody who says, you know, with all due respect to you, that I'm hoping that these years I'll give my attention to this, and then we'll catch up in the later years, and he'll understand, And the disconnect happens when the person isn't getting the attention.

15:01And then... When I get home, I am just tired. And when my husband gets home from work, he wants dinner on the table. I'm thinking, like, in three years, maybe I'll catch a break. Do you know what can happen into your marriage in three years? I've already been married three years, and it's fine. I love him. I love to give him all the time and all the sex he wants. But right now, I've got two kids who are... I am nursing and who are on my back. I don't want a third to have to need that, like, to be on top of me, too. You're a husband for a third? Yes. What do you want to say? There's this joke that the highest form of foreplay for a mother of small children is unloading the dishwasher.

15:40And I do have a husband who's very there in the house. He cooks and he takes care of the children, and that is part of it. And maybe that's, maybe part of the answer is that I do have someone who's an equal partner in the job of raising the family. One of the things that you say at the end of the article, if your children ever wonder if they were loved by you, that they can, that they would have the memory of the way you looked at your husband. So you grew up in a house where your father was a priority, correct? Definitely. I mean, total priority. Did you feel unloved? No. I mean, the thing I was thinking, because you guys were talking about nurturing your children and nurturing, you know, and taking care of them.

16:18But part of nurturing is also letting them see the affection you have for your husband. I mean... Huge. That is so huge. I mean, I've watched them hold hands. I've watched them kiss. I mean... No, I agree with that completely. I'm not at all saying my husband doesn't get any love. Oh, no, I know. Most of it right now goes to my kids. And whatever I can give to my husband, he knows. I think that they need to see the affection. I think they need to see the affection. Also, I think what is important is for women to communicate that to their husbands. Like you said, it's not like I don't love my husband.

16:52My husband knows I still love him. I think a lot of women don't communicate that. And men need things communicated. They need like a, you know, a stretch hammer, you know? And so when they see your, all of your attention going to your children, they think, okay, what about me? What happened to me? And I'm sure if you were to go home and have a really honest conversation with your husbands about it, In many cases, if they could be open with you about it, they would tell you they have felt that. They have felt that. Okay? I guess I'm now in second place or third place. We've had those conversations.

17:28Okay. Well, at least you're talking about it. Right. According to a recent report by the National Marriage Project at Rutgers University, I'm quoting here, that children seem to be a growing impediment for the happiness of marriages. That's a quote. I'm a mom first. I take care of my kids first. They are the center of our universe. My husband, my needs come second. Sometimes our needs don't come at all. The reality is at 7 at night when four kids need a bath and have to do homework, I can't say, okay, look, I need to focus on my husband right now, so this is going to have to wait. My marriage changed when we had kids because we redirected the focus on the kids.

18:11It was never, it was no longer about us. My husband needs me. I mean, he doesn't need me the way a five-month-old needs me, but he needs my attention. He needs my love. He needs my focus. And if I'm wrapped up into our children, he'll suffer too. I am in love with my kids, and I love my kids. I think it's wonderful that parents are devoted, and I say this all the time, that being a parent, staying-at-home mom is the hardest job on earth. But what kinds of kids are we raising now? Everybody is seeing these children who, for one reason or another, because they have been given so much attention, think that they are the center of the universe.

18:49You know, the center of the universe. Schools are filled with these kids. Yeah, you wanted to say about that? Yeah, I wanted to say that maybe I'm one of those children. I mean, I'm an only child. My parents were divorced when I was very young, and I know that I'm the center of my mother's universe. And I have a nine-month-old at home, and I'm trying very hard not to repeat that kind of unbalance that I experienced as a child myself. So was it fun being the center of the universe? I guess it was. I mean, as you get older, you find that you have some issues about it. You know, you're a little self-centered, perhaps, or you expect the world to revolve around you.

19:26So, yeah, I mean, I think it would have been better if I had witnessed a healthy marriage in my childhood. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, so I know that there are millions of women out there who feel tremendous pressure to be super moms. And when you're constantly trying to be the best mother you can be, super moms say sacrifices have to be made. And sometimes those sacrifices include your husband. I definitely have to be a mother first and then a wife second. The maternal instinct in me makes me take care of my children first. With three young children who need lots of attention and plenty of chores to do, Leslie Gorey says her husband Mike isn't even on her priority list.

20:08He does seem to come last after the kids because I'm just focusing on getting the list done. Leslie says sometimes she's so focused on her children that she forgets to speak to Mike when he walks by. I just ignored him when I went by because I was so busy with the kids. Sometimes I feel like, you know, she's put so much energy into them and she's kind of forgotten about her husband. I am a little bit neglected, but I understand why. She's an unbelievable mother. After school, Leslie focuses on music lessons and scout activities. And after dinner, Mike is on the sidelines while Leslie spends time with the kids.

20:44My husband has been very neglected in the evenings and does seem to come last because I'm up there with the kids. When he's down here talking on the phone to his friends or is watching TV by himself, I don't sit with them and hang out because I don't have time. My life is overcommitted, so it affects my relationship with my husband. That does affect our sex life, definitely. I'm so tired, so it's hard to just stop and switch gears to that. The needs of the children have to come first. I do wish I'd got a little more attention. It's a conflict between going out with my husband and staying home with the kids.

21:20And quite honestly, I feel like we should be together as a family. So what do you hope the results of your parenting will be, Leslie? I'm trying to make sure they have a great self-esteem and a great childhood. And it's hard because I have so many commitments, so my husband does get fed on the back burner just because I only have 24 hours. Mm-hmm. Are you okay with it? I feel that you...I'm sensing that you're in some conflict about it. I am in conflict about it, and I know that I need to spend more time with my...and I know he wants it, and I want to be there with him. It's just sometimes I'm so exhausted, I keep thinking, OK, we'll win.

21:59Reese gets into first grade. So I keep thinking maybe I'll have more time to give him more focus. I know that the husband needs attention. I'm not blind to it. And we do talk about it. And we try to go away for trips. But the day-to-day part, I don't have time at the end of the day for my husband. But you know, my children, I don't do flashcards. And I don't. We failed at the violin. And I don't have a checklist. And sometimes I'm late to soccer practice, and once I was snack mom and I forgot.

22:37What happened? Oh, my God, you've never seen such angry cases. I went to...I found a...I drove at the speed of light to 7-Eleven and that and I bought things with partially hydrogenated vegetable oil. When your husband was in the kitchen with you when you were doing flashcards and he had said something to the effect, you know, I feel neglected and then he went downstairs to watch TV. Have you ever thought of doing those teachings at night together? That would be great but my husband actually likes to have his, he has his little TiVo thing going on downstairs. He, and what, He wants to watch his shows, which I think most men want to sit there and watch some of those.

23:17I don't, I'm not a TV person. We'll get to a man later. Yeah. Okay.

23:23I want you to meet Muffy, who calls herself a slacker mom. After deciding to ditch the supermom rat race, she's written about this in Confessions of a Slacker Mom, is what she calls it. So Muffy is convinced that by slacking, her kids are way better off now, correct? I hope so. I mean, they're only five and six, so we'll have to wait and see. You know, we all want our kids to succeed, and I'm no different. I really do want my kids to succeed, even though I call myself a slacker mom. I want them to be happy. My question is, what is going to get them there? And when I think about what has brought me happiness in my own life, it's the relationships that I have with other people, number one.