The Seven Levels of Marriage

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0:59Hi, everyone. I'm Oprah Winfrey. Listen and see if you recognize your marriage going through one of the seven following levels. Number one, the beginning or newlywed level. You fight over family, friends, and finances and deal with the loss of independence. The second stage, the acceptance level, when the good times begin and you understand that you can be separate but still part of a team. The third stage, parenthood level, when the big decision to have a baby or not to have a baby is decided. The fourth level, the family level, when jealousies over divided attention and affection flare up and disputes over childbearing begin.

1:37Number five, the rebirth and reconciliation level, when she may enter the career world and he realizes that his career is not taking him where he wants to go. Male midlife crisis starts and the bedroom may become a battleground. The sixth level. You been there? Sixth level. Humdrum when boredom and the thought of straying from the marriage bed comes into play. And the seventh level, the freedom level when the kids are gone and you're free and the freedom from responsibility brings peace back to the bedroom and the relationship. According to a woman you'll meet a little later on in the show, you're going to fight with your spouse and at times feel so bad about your marriage that you want to run home to your mother.

2:18But she says the good news is that every single married person goes through those feelings. And if you understand that, you can make your marriage stronger. My first guests are couples in three of the levels of marriage, the critical levels of marriage. Our first couple is in the entry level. They've been married since last September and are learning now still how to deal with finances and family and independence and his mother and her mother. And she says sometimes she feels that she is doing more giving and he is doing more taking in the marriage. Welcome Sarah and John Ahe to the show. Glad to have you here.

2:55Our next couple is in the humdrum level. They've been married for 19 years and they are dealing with marriage and a family at midlife. She says sometimes she feels trapped and bored in the relationships and finds that she and her husband walk around their house without really seeing or talking to each other. Welcome Laverne and Charlie Bell. And our last couple is free. They're in the freedom level of their marriage. The kids are grown. The kids are gone. And they are glad. And they're starting to relax again. She says that after so many years of putting her energy into her children, it is nice to finally spend some time getting to know her husband again.

3:36Welcome Sherry and John Drives. Welcome all of our guest. And I just want you all to know that we're certainly not here to attack marriage. We're here to find out what it's really like, because the thing is, nobody tells you what it's really like. So many people intermarriage, and I think that's why our guest wrote the book, they intermarried with incredible expectations. How is it, Sarah, different than your expectations? Well, John's working a lot more than I originally thought. Well, I knew he had lots of hours, but he's just gone and I'm home a lot more than I thought and I'm in charge of household responsibilities to the point and I'm you know I don't mind them but it's a lot and when you when you first married before you married were you working yourself no I just graduated from college so you expected to see him more yes because when you're dating you see each other and it's happy times and it's the paddle boats on the lake.

4:34Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And so you don't see him enough. Right. Do you realize she doesn't see you enough? Yes. Yes. I do. I'm working. This is just starting up with work. And I understand that. You know, there's nothing we can do about it right now. And, uh, you know, there are, we use the time we have together real quality. It's quality time. Uh-huh. What do you do? In a family business. Oh, what do I do working? Oh, yeah. No, No, when you're using your quality time, yeah. Oh, we're out a lot. I mean, we're always active when we're not either anything. We enjoy being home watching TV on one night to going out to a concert or a show or going out with friends or family.

5:12We always keep pretty busy when we're even just being home. Does he spend a lot of, I understand the family lives close by. Yes. Your family lives close by. Does he spend a lot of time with the family? We both do. Okay. By choice. Yeah, I have five brothers and a sister and they're all married. so we often do things with our families as well. What do you do with your family? Well, they're in a different town, so we visit them on weekends and as much as possible, and they come to visit us too as much. And holidays are divided up as equally as possible. Do you think he spends too much time with his family?

5:47Do you have to spend too much time with his family? I'm trying to pick a fight. I'm doing the best. No, I'm new to the area, and so his family are initially the first friends that I had there. So I really enjoy the time with my sister-in-laws and brother-in-laws and my in-laws. How is it different than you expected, John? The adjustment. I was used to being able to work late at night or, you know, to work till nine o 'clock without calling home and saying, you know, I'm still going to be another couple hours or another hour till seven o 'clock or whatever times. And now just seeing the responsibilities of, you know, letting Sarah know when I'll be home or just getting budgets in order.

6:27I mean, you never know how many expenses you'll have until you actually incur them and the bills come in the mail. Different things and waiting for someone else to be ready on time.

6:40Here we go.

6:44Okay, Sarah, so do you manage the finances at home? You have to balance the checkbooks and all that stuff? Not. You write checks very often. John gives me money and that's the money I have. So, yeah, right now we're, John's pretty much in charge of the budget. Let's talk about that for a moment because if you are accustomed to being somewhat independent, I don't know what I would do if I had to now have to depend upon my husband to give me so much money per week, especially if it wasn't the amount I wanted. So how do you handle that? Does he, every week he says to you, what do you need? And he gives you pantyhose money?

7:22It takes a lot of work. It's a lot of creative financing. We both try to set realistic budgets and it's hard. You never know. There's always something that you'd never expect coming out of the blue. And does that tick you off? No, we've been pretty flexible about it. It surprises us, I would say, both of us, because we both want to work out within a budget. Okay. So have you all had any arguments yet? No, none. That's not true.

7:50That's not true. We have argued. I think one of the biggest changes that has occurred is I'm going through some different phases because I'm away from my family for the first time. I'm in a new area, getting used to a new environment. And it's the environment John grew up in. So that he's not going through the same type of challenges that I am. And I guess that's one of the toughest things. Yeah, I'm sure it gets lonely for you too. Sometimes, but it's nice having family nearby. Okay. I think you've been where, Laverne, you've been where there. Yeah. Was that fun? Are you guys still having fun?

8:28Yes. Oh, look at them. There's some happy ones. Yes. Okay. So you've been there. You guys have been there. You all have been there, too. And was that fun when you were there? The early stages, the entry stage? That was fun. Oh, yeah. When does it start to, like, we hear, everyone's heard about the seven-year itch. when does it when does sometimes it comes around three years but when does it start to hit humdrum when it's the same little thing you got the budgets worked out you know what his finances are he knows what yours are and you sort of see each other on the stairs for me I think for us it began when the children all went to school and after I had got my degree and everything, I think it started at that point becoming humdrum because the kids are, well now they're all on their way, you know, they're in school, but they're having, at least we're having difficulties.

9:34The kids are in school? Yeah. The kids are out of the house? No. No, they're not in the house, they're in school. They're in school. Yeah. We have teenagers. You have teenagers. Twins, 13, 17 and 18 year old. Oh, my Lord. So, we're dealing with an 18-year-old right now. Yeah. You know.

9:57What do you think makes a marriage lose its zippity-doo-dah every day? Raising the kids. Raising the kids? Having the children at home, and there's really no privacy, you know, like we would like it. you know, you can't walk around like they might be able to do, walk around the house and just, you know, look at everything. So it's that, it's the kids. Yeah. Well, see, I'd say the humdrum stage comes and goes, you know. I mean, that was after the twins were born, you know, she went to school full time. And when I got off in the evening, I took care of the kids. You know, you got these two babies you're feeding at the same time, you know, throwing stuff in your face and you want to, you know.

10:45And then when she comes in, hey, I'm too mad to talk, you know. I got to cool down. And she wants to do homework and I have to get up at 3 3 in the morning, you know. And, you know, various stages in life, you know. And for a while everything, you know, levels out. Because it's not always humdrum. We might have a very nice period of happiness, and then all of a sudden it's back down to dumb. So it's kind of an on and off kind of thing. How long have you been in a humdrum?

11:20Well, I think about a year and a half now. Really? About a year and a half. A year and a half? Yeah. At least. At least. Usually when people get in a humdrum, stages and we talk about this a lot on this show, they start thinking about straying. You ever thought about it? Sure. There's a lot of stress involved in raising a family and we started actually we started out with a child anyway you know but it's a lot of responsibility raising small children and still trying to find a time to be together you know so. You know there's times when we want to go out on Saturday nights. And the kids are teenagers now, you know.

12:04They get mad because we're going out. But you know, you just have to make them stay there and go out. But they're wonderful children. You know, we love all of them. That's it. They want to spend all their time with us. Okay, I understand. Sherry and John, you've absolutely lived this, right? Yeah, we've been through it. How many kids? Three. Three kids. And they're now out of the house? Yes, except for one still at the University of Wisconsin. Okay. But she's out of the house. Yeah, she's not at home. But out of the house. Was it, did you go through the empty nest syndrome? To a certain degree, yes.

12:40I took it in stages and I missed each one of them as they left. Probably the girls not as much because they went to colleges close by so I could periodically see them. But my son left immediately for California and we hardly ever see him. So I probably in a way miss him more, not that I love him anymore, but at that stage. I don't think John probably missed him as much. No, I don't think I went through this as much because I wasn't around the house and probably as close to him, so to speak, as my wife would be. And what's it like for you now? Because as we're hearing here, you all have to look forward to this, is that you spend, once you have children, you spend 18 years talking about the kid.

13:25living for the kids, doing things, going places, vacations are based on the kids, right? Everything is about the kids. So when the kids are gone, it's like getting to know each other again, isn't it? I've got one word. I think it's great. I mean, not that I miss my kids, but like he said, when you get a baby, you don't have to get a babysitter. You can call your wife and say, hey, honey, what are you doing at 5 o 'clock? let's go out for lunch or let's go someplace, let's take in a movie. And the amount of freedom is just wonderful. How has it changed your relationship? Well, I think we're closer now than we were before because we don't have the strain.

14:10A lot of our problems, I think, stem from the children that he's much more the disciplinarian than I am, so we were kind of at odds that way. Was it difficult getting to relearn him or re-know him? Yeah, I was panicked about that a lot because I said, how am I going to talk to him now when we don't have the subject of children anymore? But we've gotten to do things together. We've got a few interests in common. I wouldn't worry about that. It just comes. It comes. How long have you been married? How long? We'll be married about 30 years. That's good. That's good. Did you go through the humdrum period?

14:45Oh, yes. Sure. Yeah, it was very humdrum for a lot of years. Well, we had a unique situation, too. And I... See, it's interesting. The women always think it was far more hum of a drum than the guys. See, I have not liked the first couple. I got to see my wife all the time because I'm a veterinarian and lived above the practice. And in fact, it probably got to be a bad thing. We saw each other too much. Too much togetherness. And I was home at noon and I was home at night and we lived there. And it was a whole different situation in the beginning of America. So how did you get out of the humdrums, Sherry?

15:24I went to work. That's one thing that helped me a lot. I found myself. Because I got married right out of college, and I really didn't feel like I had much of my identity. And so it was very nice to get to work and to learn that I had a value, even though maybe I wasn't making that much money, but there was a little value in myself outside of being a wife and a mother. Regardless of, well, that is incredible value. I mean, don't you think... No, but I think people put it down. Of course people do, but having worked in the world where you get paid for it, isn't it even a lot easier, don't you think, to work outside than to work in the home?

16:02The people who work in the home, my goodness.

16:11My next guest says that the secret to a happy marriage is knowing that each marriage goes through seven levels, some of which are painful and difficult to handle. If you know about them beforehand and realize the road may be rough, but you'll get through it, you can avoid divorce and come through the crisis stronger and healthier. Please welcome the author of The Seven Levels of Marriage, Cynthia Smith. Welcome, Cynthia.

16:39And these are all predictable stages. We're not talking about living with a husband who abuses you or... No, these are the normal garden variety stages people go through. I did a lot of interviewing on this. I interviewed people all over the country, all income levels, all educational levels, all economic levels, and it was astounding the similarities that couples go through as each level of marriage progresses. You know it's a movable thing, marriage. It just changes like life changes, and your relationship changes. And the secret is really, if there is a secret, well, there was one secret, a woman who was married 50 years.

17:12I asked her what the secret of her success was, and she said, overlooking. Overlooking a lot. Isn't the problem in many relationships that one person grows in one direction and the other person does not? Not really, because we all grow. Growth is something we go through all the time. It's a question of each person accommodating to the other persons. And as long as a marriage stays 100 percent, it doesn't matter if one gives 60 and one gives 40, and the configuration changes as time goes on. I interviewed couples who he was the, as you were talking about where he's the sole support and she's the home body, where in the middle of the marriage it changes.

17:50And all of a sudden he's home and she's running everything and the whole configuration changes. And it works out wonderfully. If there's love and trust, it works. Who are you guys in the marriage? You're still holding hands, so it's early. We've kind of gone to stage four very quickly. We've had our first child. It's hard because we're trying to get to know each other at the same time we're faced with the stress of taking care of a young infant. How long have you been married? About a year and a couple months. And it's hard for me also because I'm younger than, well, about eight years younger.

18:26And so I'm trying to find myself and take care of an infant and go through all these, you know, we're just getting to live with each other. You know, I leave closet doors open and he can't stand it. And, you know, just little things like that that normally wouldn't bother a person. But once you're trying to get to know each other. closet doors open? You know, I'm like, big deal. But to him, you know, he can't work. You know, just little things that you never, when you're going out, you don't, you just kind of not say anything about it because you don't want to upset the other person. They're going through, unfortunately, you're having a rough one.

18:58You're going through the entry level, the acceptance level, the parenthood level, and the family level. All the way here. And exactly what you said is exactly what I describe about the people told me about in the entry level, where she says, he's such a darn slob. He leaves the beer bottles on the table and the crackers. I mean, who does he think is going to clean up? The tooth fairy? And then he says, why does she have to hang her clothes out every night? The place looks like a rummage sale. And she says, well, I have to air my clothes out. And all these little things. But in time, those passes, you get to appreciate other factors about each other.

19:29And then it kind of goes into, but you're going through then dealing with another persona in the marriage too, a child. It will work. I mean, you're going through an accelerated period. What we're trying to do now is not, you can either do one or two things. You can say, this is never going to work and I'm so frustrated and have a negative attitude. Or you can find a system. You're never going to completely be happy with each other as far as things that you like and dislike. You have to work out a system where you can deal with these things without fighting. Well, what you have to do really is relegate things to their importance.

20:00And many of them that you're talking about can assume tremendous importance when they're really not that important. They're irritants. They're not troubles. There's a big difference between irritants. You're nodding because, Sarah? Oh, I agree with those, you know, they're irritants and they can, you know, blossom into big ones. I leave cupboard doors open and John doesn't like that. My God, I leave closet doors and cupboard doors. What a problem I'm gonna have. Yes. I can agree with that. I think one of the things that may be a little different between our marriage and some of the other newer marriages is I have a job that allows me a fairly flexible time schedule.

20:37So I've been able to stay home at times where a lot of husbands wouldn't be able to. And it has enabled Linda to continue with her education and work towards a career. And I'd really like her to have a career. And I also want to develop a relationship with my children. My parents always brought me up with a very strong family virtue and emphasized that it's important for a child to have a relationship with both a mother and a father. And, you know, the flexibility has allowed me to do that, and I'm very happy. Okay. You guys are working it out. Yeah. But a lot of people don't, and that's why many people advise that you don't have children, at least for the first year or two, because you're going through this whole entry stage.

21:15Well, it depends. It doesn't really, the time, it isn't any time frame. And people ask me about the level. When do I know which level I'm passing into? There's no set time. Sometimes entry level can pass, you can pass through that in months, sometimes years. And then you get, it's very important, though, really, to get from that entry level when you're keeping a scorecard. That's what you're doing now. That's the problem. You really keep a scorecard. and deep down inside you've got your eye on the exit door. You may not say so, but you really think, well, if this yo-yo keeps this up much longer, I'm getting the hell out of this thing.

21:43I mean, you really think that, and if you keep that inside, that's what's bad. And when that passes and when you say, geez, I'm going to take him warts and all, and this is the way he is, and that's it, I shouldn't keep saying he. The same thing applies for she. But you have to go through this, and then there just comes a point where you just accept what the other person is like because the whole relationship works for you. and then you go on into that next level which is the acceptance level when you really know the marriage is going to be for good and then all these little minor annoyances become just that minor annoyance you blow your sack and you tell them to get the crackers off the table and that's it and it's finished and shut the doors and close the doors or you get to say it's not so bad if you close it you know it wouldn't kill you if you close it if it bothers you that much all right you're married yes i didn't get married till i was 31 and six months after i was well i got a lot of things out of the way first.

22:33Did my traveling and but now I was pregnant six months after we got married and now I've been married five years and have two little children and it gets real hairy at home. My husband comes home and wants it to be quiet. You want to have a nice quiet dinner and talk to each other. Two little children at home? That's right. It doesn't work. And then my husband gets upset and we start bickering and then he's more of a disciplinarian than I am, so we argue about the kids, and it just gets real hairy. It's very unusual if we have a nice, quiet evening that we don't argue about the kids, and we love them dearly.

23:09Who has quiet, nice evenings and have kids? You do? They don't have kids.