Office Hours: Halal Investments, Career Guidance for Recent Grads, and Making Decisions When You’re Angry

0:28Support for this show comes from Snapdragon Snapdragon. more at snapdragon.com slash laptops. Battery life varies significantly based on device, settings, usage, and other factors. Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odoo. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more. And the best part? Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost.

1:08That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com.

1:29Welcome to the Prof. G. Pod's Office Hours. This is the part of the show where we answer your questions about business, big tech, entrepreneurship, and whatever else is on your mind. If you'd like to submit a question, please email a voice recording to officehours at profgmedia.com. Again, that's officehours at profgmedia.com. First question. Hey, Prof. G. This is Mohamed from Toronto, and I wanted to ask for your thoughts in an area that I feel is underserved by more mainstream financial wisdom. As a practicing Muslim, I am precluded from investing primarily in interest-based assets such as bonds.

2:01It's only been a few years since I've graduated and started working, and I've used this restriction so far to hold more cash and pay off my student loans, put a down payment on a house, and investment primarily in index funds. However, how would you factor this restriction into a longer-term investment thesis? In an inflationary environment, should I be shifting the quote-unquote safer a portion of my savings from cash to commodities, REITs, paying off my mortgage early, or something else entirely? Love the show. Thanks for your thoughts. Yeah, Mohamed from Toronto. Thanks for the thoughtful question.

2:32So first off, you have to acknowledge that whenever you put restrictions on the universe of investment options, your returns are probably going to be lower. So for example, I don't invest in Meta. And I felt at the end of last year in October when Meta was trading at six times earnings, it was trading at a lower multiple than Ford Motor. I predicted that it would be one of the best performers. The stock has tripled. You know, it's better to be lucky than good. And that would have been great. That would have been great for my portfolio. But I have decided to exclude certain companies from my investment universe.

3:04So your returns are likely going to be lower. And that's okay. You know, your principles and the comfort that your spirituality or religion gives you is you've done the math and it's worth it to you. So some key principles that guide Islamic investing, my understanding of prohibition of interest, or I think it's riba, so investments in conventional interest-bearing instruments, you know, fixed income bonds or conventional bank accounts are not allowed. Garar, something around, I think it's prohibition of uncertainty. Haram, which I believe is like, you can't be in the sin stuff, gambling, alcohol.

3:43But my sense is like any large market, and this is, I think about a three plus trillion dollar market, and that is the Islamic finance industry. They have workarounds. And that's the great thing about capitalism is people realize there's a lot of individuals like you. And there are investment vehicles catered to practicing Muslims, Islamic bonds, Islamic mutual funds, equity investments, real estate investments. So I think the universe is out there. And I think there are people doing the work for you in terms of deciding what you can or cannot invest in. In terms of paying off your mortgage, first off, I think someone your age should not be in cash.

4:23I think you should always try to be putting money to work. And I'm actually thinking of paying off, and this is a privileged position, I'm thinking of paying off some of my mortgages because I think to refinance one of my mortgages, they're quoting me 6 % or 7%. I'm like, I'm not sure I know how to beat that consistently. And at my age, I don't want to take a lot of risk anymore. So maybe I'm better off taking money if I have it and paying down loans that are charging six or 7%. Two years ago, it was smart to kind of lever up because I could borrow money at 2.375%. So if I had a home, which I did in Florida that had gone up dramatically in value, I took out a second on it at two and three-eighths and invested in the market in diversified funds and thought, chances are I'm going to beat that interest rate.

5:06Now it's not so clear. So paying down debt, especially high interest debt, isn't a bad solution. At your age, you sound young and being a little bit more aggressive. I would say index funds and funds that comply with your beliefs, there's a lot of them out there. So I think you should be able to figure this out. Get out of cash, pay off high interest loans. I understand that you got out of your student loans for a reason, but most people when they ask me if they should pay off their student loans, they say it's a function of the interest rate. If the interest rate is, say, lower than 4%, which oftentimes it is, just hold on to them.

5:41That's good debt. There's good debt and bad debt. If you have credit card balances that are 15%, 18 % or 12 % or anything approaching or greater than double digits, pay that off. But it sounds like you're thinking about this the right way. And the fact that you just have additional cash and you're thinking about investing means you're ahead of the game, that you're ahead of probably 80 % of America, 90 % of people your age. And there are vehicles that comply, that cater to someone with your specific concerns. The only thing I would check with this type of esoteric fund is fees. You always want to be diversified, and also real low cost.

6:21The difference between Vanguard charging you, I think it's three basis points, and most brokers who will in general charge you about 1 % of assets. 1 % doesn't sound like a lot, but it takes a third of your returns away over the long term when you factor in compounding. So there's an industry that catering to you that you can access. Don't be in cash. Pay off your high interest debt. Be diversified and make sure you're not paying high fees. I wonder if Vanguard offers something that caters to your market, but you're well ahead of the game. You're thinking about investing, you're saving, and you're building economic security for you and your family.

6:58So well done, Muhammad from Toronto. Go Leafs, go Leafs. Next question. Hi, Scott. This is Matt from Colorado. I'm a big fan of the podcast and I find your takes refreshing and particularly insightful. A little bit of background on me. I'm headed into my final year of university at a non-target school. I chose this university for the reason that I would graduate debt-free, despite getting into more competitive universities. I have a strong GPA and internship experience in management consulting this summer. However, I'm running into some headwinds with the market conditions being what they are for full-time recruiting.

7:40I'm curious if you have any strategies for dealing with uncertainty surrounding the early stages of a career, thoughts on best learning environments to start a career in and any practical steps you would take for somebody in my position. Thank you. Thanks for the question. I don't care how strong the economy is. When you get out of college, it does not feel easy to get a job, or at least it's never been easier for me. I graduated from Berkeley in 1992, and 40 % of us had a job on graduation, meaning the majority of us didn't have a job. And I interview well. I'm talented. I had good certification, and I had to interview a ton to get job offers.

8:17And then ultimately I ended up getting a couple of job offers with consulting firms and then thinking, do I really want to do this? And I decided to do my own thing, but that's not what you asked. Look, I don't think there's a silver bullet here. I think it's finding the alum from your university that are in industries or companies or adjacents that you're interested in and emailing them and trying to get a coffee or find more. Leveraging the career services of your university, sometimes depending on the university, they're not that great. doing LinkedIn searches for your friends to see if they have any connections to people.

8:49And quite frankly, just not being afraid to ask, be persistent, and maybe even a little bit obnoxious. There was all those stories when I was trying to get a job in investment banking about, and I never did this, about people showing up in the lobby with muffins and saying, I'm here in the lobby with muffins, will you interview me? But I don't think it's wrong to email someone and when you don't hear back from them, to email them again. And that hunger, that persistence, being a little bit of a, you know, a little bit of a pest. I think those are life skills that are useful in every aspect of life, being super aggressive.

9:23So I don't know, other than contacting alumni, friends of friends, cold emailing people, experimenting with a really strong letter, using ChatGPT to incorporate feed, you know, get good at ChatGPT and get it to not only write you a great letter, but maybe start learning about a specific, very deep niche in the field you're interested in going into and expressing that domain expertise in the letter that I'm super interested in how AI is impacting the mining industry. You want to basically be able to answer some very basic questions in the outreach, and that is, why me? Why am I interested in your company.

10:08You know, you got to kind of pretend you were born to work at whatever it is, Monsanto. And then what is it I'm doing to maintain that point of differentiation? But at the end of the day, getting a job right at college, it's kind of a numbers game and it's a willingness to get out a big spoon and eat shit. And what do I mean by that? You got to call people that don't want to hear from you. It's embarrassing to ask people for favors and reach out to alumni and call your mom's cousin who might know someone in this industry and just follow up and bother them. It really is a numbers game and show real persistence here.

10:42And then really think hard about the interviews and the companies and the people. I find sort of a hack or a trick. Whenever I was doing an interview, I would get across my point. And the moment I felt it was going well, I'd start asking them questions. I find that people love to talk about themselves. And at the end of the interview will think, wow, I really like this person because people like anyone that likes them. And one way to express your goodwill towards someone is to ask them about them. The other thing to keep in mind is the majority of CEOs did not come from Ivy League schools. I wouldn't be self-conscious.

11:17Feel as if you need to have a story for why you ended up at that university. I don't even think you need it. Let you speak for yourself. And graduating debt-free is a great reason to go to a school and you have a strong GPA, internship experience. But what you are going through is what everyone goes through. No matter what the economy was, I've never found it's like super easy. Unless you're at an elite school, a business school, and a boom economy, it's always kind of hard. So you're where you should be. But how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. Every morning, you're going to send out three, five, eight emails, follow up, follow up emails, get really organized, disciplined about it.

11:59And just when you think, oh, God, I'm sick of the rejection, that means you send out another two or three emails or call people or contact them or try and come up with unique, innovative ways to get in the door, a trick or mentioning something or sending them something or following up with a handwritten note, whatever it might be. Best of luck to you. We have one quick break before our final question. Stay with us.

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13:25Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odoo. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more. And the best part? Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com.

14:08Welcome back. Question number three. Dear Prof G, do you have a timeline or checklist on making or not making a decision when you're angry? My assistant at work, a higher education institution, is a young single mother who is celebrating her son's graduation from high school. She asked to work from home for the week to celebrate with her son and family, all of whom are flying in from out of state. At the ripe age of 34, this young woman will be an empty nester next week, and I believe this is a milestone moment for her son and for her. My workplace, however, has no work-from-home policy. Word got out that I have allowed her to do this.

14:47HR called my boss, who then called me. It is possible that I will be reprimanded. I do not want to make an irrational decision or do something hasty, like search for other employment, or quit my degree program, which is free due to my employment status. As a manager, I thought I had the autonomy to make these types of decisions, but it has become clear that I do not. Knowing this, how do you make decisions when you feel threatened? or are angry with your working environment. Thanks for your time and consideration. Clayton. Hey, Clayton. Thanks for the question. So in general, making decisions from anger is fine as long as it's planned.

15:27There's this great picture, I think it's of Khrushchev at the UN, and he's literally banging on the desk with his shoe. But the picture has enough perspective, or the wide angle is broad enough such that you see his feet and he's still wearing both shoes, meaning that he brought a shoe to bang on the desk, meaning he was planning to get angry. I write angry emails all the time. I struggle with anger. I lash out. I've gotten better as I've gotten older. But what I do is a couple of things. One, I'll write an email and really let it flow. And then I don't press send. And I wait 24 hours and I read it again.

16:05And most of the time I'm going to decide not to send it. And then when I get mad at somebody close to me, you know, it's true, you usually hurt or get angry at the people close to you because they're in proximity to you. And you know that for the most part, they'll forgive you, which is, you know, which is bad, right? But when I'm about to fucking lose it, and that happens to me a lot, I really try to check myself. And you recognize as you get older, a lot of times your anger is more a function about you, your contacts, and not what that person has done. They've just triggered you. At the same time, I occasionally do blow up at my kids, and I don't think that's necessarily terrible.

16:44I don't want to traumatize them. You know, their mom will say to me, that was an outsized reaction, and I'll be like, well, they're going to get run across outsized reaction their entire life, and it's okay if that happens, and they can learn to deal with it, and it's okay for me to apologize and say, apologize, This is what's going on with me, and this is why I got so angry at, you know, you not cleaning up the dog shit or whatever. But in terms of a work context, the bottom line is it sucks to be a grown-up. And regardless of how head-up-their-ass policies they have, and not letting a woman work from home when her kid is graduating from high school, that's just, I don't know.

17:19It strikes me that that organization is choosing policy and scale and standards over empathy. I just can't imagine anyone. The reason why you have policies is so you can scale and such that people feel like they're working in an equitable workplace. And I can't imagine any of your colleagues being angry that they gave a woman whose kid is graduating from high school an opportunity to work from home for a week. Now, would everyone start asking? Maybe, but I don't know. It just feels like they could deal with it. But look, they're in charge and you sign the back of their checks. In other words, you cash them and you have to deal with it.

17:54And you have two choices. You know, if you can't fix it, you got to stand it, as Heath Ledger and Brokeback Mountain said. Was that was that the other guy? I don't know. I don't know. Anyways. So you have a couple of choices. You can either you can go to them and say, this is why I think we should do it. And who knows? You don't know what they're going to do. It doesn't sound like they've responded yet. And I think your position is entirely defensible. I think erring on the side of empathy and just being a good person is always a pretty good plan B. And that sounds like what you're trying to do here.

18:26And then if they tell you you can't do it, they get to make that decision. And then you have a decision. And that is, do you want to stay at that firm long term? And you have to make a series of tradeoffs. But there's just no getting around it. I think you've got to do what they want. I think you make your case. You can say, I disagree. But let's be honest, this isn't a democracy. You're in charge. And I'll do what you tell me to do. And then over the long term or the medium term, I wouldn't have an emotional reaction to it. I'd get back to work. And then you've got to decide, based on a series of probably good and bad things and trade-offs at that company, if it's somewhere you can put up with the downside, including decisions like this, or if you want to look for a different job.

19:07Thanks so much. And I think your instincts and your empathy are right on in terms of the decision you made about this young woman. Thanks for the question, Clayton. That's all for this episode. If you'd like to submit a question, please email a voice recording to officehours at propgmedia.com. Again, that's officehours at propgmedia.com.

19:36This episode was produced by Jennifer Sanchez and Caroline Shagrin. Drew Burrows is our technical director. Thank you for listening to the Propg Pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network. We will catch you on Saturday for No Mercy, No Malice, as read by George Hahn, and on Monday with our weekly market show.