348: Exam Special: how to help kids with revision and stress

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1:06Hello, scumbags. This is the Scummy Mummies Podcast. With your hosts, Ellie Gibson and Helen Thorne.

1:19Hello and welcome to the Scummy Mummies Podcast. It's me, Ellie Gibson. And it's me, Helen Thorne. And who is our special guest today? It's Catherine Medici. Hello. I've answered my own question. Welcome, Catherine. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Now, listen, here's the thing. So, obviously, if you're a regular listener, you'll know that this podcast is mainly bunkum, isn't it? Oh, nonsense. Just absolute rubbish. It's just a couple of slags with someone they quite like blathering on about any old shit. But today, we thought we'd try and inform and educate Helen.

1:51Katherine Radice: Yes, it's basically Radio 4 Women's Hour today. That's right. Yes, we've gone serious. We're going to have actual facts instead of fake news. Have you been putting out fake news? Yeah. Imagine if you're in every scummy mummy confession I've ever said has been a complete lie. That's it. All made up. I wish they were, listener, especially the ones about farting in the van. But no, the point is, sometimes we try to do a public service. And that is why you are here. This is like, what's that old quiz show where people have to guess people's profession? What's my line? Did you have that in Australia?

2:23Katherine Radice: No, but I think I am familiar with it just because of, you know, been living here for 20 years. We've got to guess Catherine's profession now. Yes, it's like, what's my line? That famous quiz show from like 1984. Nice contemporary reference for the kids and the younger listeners. Catherine, what is your line? Do I tell it straight? Do I give you a clue? Do you want to guess? Well, we know, don't we? Yeah, no, it's up to you. Do you know what? I'm going to tell you straight. I'm a teacher and I'm a parent and I work on teenage stress. Excellent. So really, we've got her, sometimes, listener, let's just be real.

2:56Katherine Radice: Sometimes we just invite people on the podcast to help solve our problems for free. That's right. Yes. Sometimes we're just like, oh, my God, I've got this problem. I need help. If we invite this person on the podcast, maybe they can solve our problem and we can pretend it's a public service. That's what we're doing. Yes, yes. It's like when we got the weaning specialist on when we had toddlers and various other people. So thank you, Catherine. You will be helping us, but also I think you'll be helping a lot of our listeners as well. Yes. And you've written an excellent book, Catherine. Oh, thank you.

3:23I've tried to write a book. I mean, it exists. No, you did. You succeeded. You literally did.

3:28Katherine Radice: Yeah, you literally wrote a book. And it's called The Parent's Guide to Exam Stress, Practical Positive Ways to Support and Motivate Your Child. Help us, Catherine. Please. Thank you. Let's do it. So here's the thing. So we've both got boys, haven't we, H, who are 15. And you've already done one set of GCSEs. You've lived through it. Yes, I have. How was it for you? Woof. I mean, you were there as well, Ellie. It was a full-on time, I would say, because year 10, not a lot of work happened. Year 11, all of the work happened, probably in the last three or four months. And so that caused enormous stress in our house.

4:05Katherine Radice: And so I've got a second chance at it. I'm trying this time. That's why you have a second child. You practice on the first one. You try and get it right with the second. That's right. And in your case, same with marriage. Yes, exactly. Correct. Exactly. Good to have a second go at these things. Um, but yes, uh, your book wasn't around then Catherine and now it is. So thank you very much. I'm going to try and do this, um, this better, but we sort of go into it blindly. And I think, I mean, as you say in your book, going into exams and school and just being a teenager is vastly different to how we did it.

4:39Katherine Radice: And I think we only go in with the skills and knowledge we had and the parenting we're familiar with. And it's like a whole different fucking planet. Yeah. Yeah. So what, I mean, the title sort of says what the book's about, obviously, The Parents Guide to Exam Stress. But what was the thinking behind, why did you decide to write the book? So I wrote it because I've been a teacher for a long time, 20 years. That's a very long time. And as a teacher, I always thought one of the biggest things that holds kids back is when they are worried they're not doing well enough. Because if they think they're not doing well enough, they pull away, they stop trying, you know, self-esteem goes down, you know, all of this.

5:15and so having watched and having thought you know exam stress is a bigger and be more of a problem than maybe we think it is I wanted to do something in that space and I was going to write for teachers and if I did do a bit for teachers but then when my own sons went through exams it was like a wake up call because I suddenly realized that you know I was so used to seeing exams from the teacher angle that I hadn't thought at all about what my sons would need from me as a parent and I feel a bit ashamed in a way that I've never kind of thought about that difference because as a teacher I've been handing out advice to parents you know for years about this is what it takes to do other exams but when my kids went through it I realized that what teenagers need from parents is not what they need from the teachers they need something different and then I thought well actually how are parents going to know what teenagers need now unless there's actually a bit of space to think about it and understand what's happening at school why is it different from our experience at school and then think how can you position yourself around that as a parent to offer the thing that your kids can only get from you as a parent so it really came out of years in the classroom and then watching my kids go through it and talking to friends of mine who were also parents at the same time and realizing this gig of parenting for exams it is much much harder than I think I had realised in advance and I thought it's time just to give a bit of space and thought to how we can find a route through which is kind of positive, calmer, more supportive, less of the battlegrounds, less of the shouting, less of the stress, you know, all of that.

6:49Well I'm very relieved to hear you say that about the difference between teachers and parents basically because I know that I am like not a good teacher. Like I was a teacher, I taught English very briefly in Vietnam, I was terrible at that and then when like it was the lockdown I think I tried homeschooling for about an hour and I just do not have the patience tolerance and skills basically to to I just I'm like but I don't understand why you don't understand this but I know you can't say that to them yeah yeah I'm going why don't you understand so I'm it's not for me Catherine is the short answer my husband had to do it all in the lockdown but um yeah it said that was all stressful so so that makes me feel better but what is it that I should be doing if it's not tutoring or teaching my kids or standing over them as you say with a with a ruler with a nail in the end what should we be doing well like in the 80s what should we be doing as parents so I think the most important thing is we have to remember that at school for six hours seven hours a day these kids are being directed they're being taught they're being instructed told you know do this do that do it this way when they come home they've already had so much advice at school that what they need at home is the support that just allows them to keep going in a reasonably cheerful and positive way and i think where it goes wrong is you know if a kid comes home and the parent says right you know what you need are flashcards and you know a mind map and you know these revision guys and where's your plan you know if a parent leans in too hard from the outset with the advice what tends to happen as the teenager is that I'm full up I've just had enough advice at school I don't want to talk about exams anymore so what I try and do in the book is kind of trace out how it looks to actually help your child keep going in a way that helps them feel that it's okay to keep trying and that it's worth putting the effort in and that they can risk trying even if they don't quite get the grades that they want and also just the practical brass tacks of you know it lasts a a long time it's months and months and months so you know they need love and they need sleep and they need to laugh and they need to have times when it's okay not to be thinking about exams because what can happen sometimes is you know we go to work we come home and suddenly we're like oh my god my son's doing GCSEs I've got to make sure he's thinking of us GCSEs and you know for us that's just a bit of our life but for a kid who'd be who's been at school hearing about in the exams your GCSEs for you know hours already that day when they come home they probably don't want the massive exam chat at home that would be like us getting home from a gig and the kids going

9:28Katherine Radice: go on mum do a joke no no that's when I'm least funny I'm like no I've run out and my battery is very very low um yeah I what I found with your book was actually you know there was bits where I go oh okay yes that's good you know don't go too hard you know and I wouldn't say that I'm a helicopter parent you know I'm kind of I'm not hovering but I do I do feel myself getting stressed like it's it's got to five o 'clock on a Sunday and my son has done nothing I'm like come on you've got to start you know what if you don't do anything you know like I feel myself spiraling and he's like where did this come from and I I am guilty of a few of your don't say least yeah and so I I want to kind of put my hands up and kind of go oh god you know there's times where I'm like you know you know you know you don't want this number you want this number and and and I feel feel bad but you know sometimes I just feel like I'm going in blind and I don't like what how do I motivate him like do I be too soft do I be too hard all those things and I think that sense of overwhelm because we don't parent uh in silo anymore like Ellie and I are we're in the same whatsapp group uh at you know because our sons are at the same school and you see the same set of parents like whizzing around and going oh how many different you know um past papers and tutors and all that sort of stuff and so we are all in this stress bubble for like two years that's a long time it's a long time and i think one of the challenges is you know you think about that two-year stretch and often as parents like particularly if you've got boys and i don't want to be too gendered but you know particularly with boys their sense of urgency is going to be really really different from the adult sense of urgency because for us age you know mid-40s those two years it feels like they go in a flash but for a teenage boy you know 15 16 yeah the exams are three months away when you're 15 16 like three months is forever and a day it's a percentage of your life exactly so you know as a parent it can be you know january february whatever and you can be looking at the whatsapp group and someone else's got tutoring and someone else is doing this and it's that arms race of parental investment and you can look at your kids who seems to be entirely unfussed about the fact that exams are coming up the track and it's very easy to soak up those other parents sense of urgency and think oh my god this is urgent we've got to get moving it's probably not as urgent as it feels and actually one of the things that I look at in the book is the whole idea of starting early and getting ahead because there is a bit of an arms race amongst parents that you know if someone is ahead like do you remember back when our kids were babies and you know the child who's like reaching first and the mother and baby group and it's yeah god you know they're reaching they're crawling or whatever and I think as parents we can get a bit rattled if someone else's child is doing something sooner and from that we then think we need to try and get our children to get ahead of the curve started early and so on but the thing is when you're a child starting it early just means doing it younger and for longer and one of the things about that run into exams is by the time the exams actually land in the summer of year 16 year 11 they've been in view for like two three years so the question is you know when it comes to revision for example do you really want your kid in may to feel like they've been revising for a year or do you want them to feel actually okay i'm good to go i can give a push for the last month or whatever and therefore the starting it early is not necessarily the secret that i think we kind of intuitively feel that it would be because of that whole thing of the timeline for teenagers is just different and the fact is you're revising how to label I don't know parts of the plant it's no more interesting when you do it for the fifth time so if you start that revision early and you go again and again and again you know the risk is by the time you get to the summer that you really can't face it at the moment where it matters so I'd say if someone is you're doing the homework if they're turning up to school if they are chugging along just fine the need for an extra push on revision early is probably not as great as you might think.

13:47So when should we start the push then? After Christmas or sort of in the spring? So it all depends on the school rhythm. And it's also worth saying that schools are always going to give the message of the more revision, the better. They kind of have to give that message because they don't want to scupper anyone's chances or say, you know, just settle for this and don't push for that. You know, so you're always going to hear from a school a message of revise more rather than less but the fact is you know it's a long time so if a kid is doing their homework and they're turning up to school and they are keeping abreast of the normal stuff then I would say they need to do some revision for interim tests but they don't necessarily need to be revising you know every Monday night from February because the fact is they are going to have time before the exams themselves and also schools do a lot of loop learning now schools do a lot of repetition a lot of consolidation in lessons so there probably isn't quite the need

14:44Katherine Radice: that we might feel that to me oh i feel so reassuring yes yeah i would i would say that because i think i think that's the the thing that we fear is that we're we're not doing enough yeah yeah a hundred percent and i think that that plagues a lot of parents when we probably are doing more than enough like i i sort of sat down with my teens last night because i had the book at at the kitchen table when we were having dinner and I was reading up bits and I said, oh look, you know, Arlo, that's my older daughter, you know, is there anything I could have done better? And she was like, no, I just liked that you were there.

15:20I liked that when I needed you,

15:22Katherine Radice: you were in the same room, not necessarily hovering over me, telling me what to do, but I was just there. Totally. And I was like, that's, I can do that. I can be in a room. I can, I can eat biscuits next to you. That's fine. Yeah. And it's worth so much. So, you know, know when I said at the start parents and teachers play different roles like the teachers are going to be nagging and guiding that revision anyway that's their job but what the teacher can't do is just sit next to a child in an unrushed way and say I see you I hear you I'm cheering you on you know I love you I value you for things that are not wrapped up with your GCSE history and so as a parent if we don't lean into that space if we don't realize that you know the role of a cheerleader is best played by us if we don't do that if we just double up with what the teachers are doing and say you know where's your mind map and how come you don't know this yet then actually the teenagers are getting an awful lot of nag and probably not enough cheerleading and one of the things that's really grim about exams is you know pretty much every teenager knows someone else who does better than they do so it is a vulnerable process you know your kid is going to be putting effort in and they're going to get grades and there will probably be someone in their class who has grades that are higher than theirs.

16:35And so it is emotionally a tough gig because you have to keep trying as a team, but you know that it's possible to be a bit better than you are. And therefore, you know, every child needs a cheerleader, but they particularly need it through exams and they particularly need to know that these exams matter, yes, but they don't define their worth as a person and they definitely don't define how proud you are as a parent of them and how much you value them as a person you know that's really really really important the exams will happen and some revision will happen even if you're doing nothing and you know let's face it in our generation our parents didn't do anything now we got our homework done and we learned some things you know the exams will happen anyway but they're being loved and cared for and nurtured that's only going to be done by us so that's my biggest message really what about just to make it about us again so our our boys have got mock exams in uh is it a few weeks i think yes and um how seriously should we take them because pete my husband we had a disagreement about this by which i'm in a row the other night um where uh he i was sort of like i don't want to put too much pressure on Charlie now because I think this is October right by the time we get to May we'll all be going mental um and Pete was like but the mocks and I was like but I think as I recall and again this was 30 odd years ago what do I know but the mocks are sort of to give them a bit of a scare maybe a kick up the arse and Pete was like no that was what the one GCSE they did early for last year and they've got to take the mocks seriously that's what they said at school and blah blah blah I mean how that feels it feels like a tightrope that what how much emphasis should we put on mocks and revising for the mocks because again you don't want them to do really badly and then lose all their confidence for the the real thing yeah exactly so I think there's a couple of things I think first of all if you've got a kid who's at a school where they need to apply to a sixth form if there is a threshold for grades for the sixth form application the one place where mocks have their own importance is potentially for those sixth form applications yeah but if you've got a kid who is on track for their sixth form choices to be as you might want them to be then the mocks really are mocks and i think as a parent you know either you can focus on trying to get the mocks to go as well as can be or you can think how can i help my child do these mocks and then move forwards to something better and the thing about education is that it is this process or if you do something you get some kind of result then you review and you adapt and the bits of that process that matter the most are they're putting some sort of effort in and then reviewing and adapting afterwards the individual outcome honestly doesn't matter anywhere near as much as keeping going with that process so the problem with putting a whole load of pressure into marks and saying you know i really want you to be getting you know seven eights whatever sixes nines you know you name it now is that if a teen goes into mocks thinking they've got to hit certain thresholds and they don't they are very unlikely to want to have a chat with you about what they do next because they will feel ashamed of their results and they'll feel that they've disappointed you and if you close down the space for the review and adapt conversation afterwards then in the long run you're going to let get less progress whereas if you go into mocks a bit more light touch and say okay these are mocks let's see how they shake out take an interest in what your child's aiming for say to them realistically how much do you think you need to do to get those grades and it may be far less than you think right lots of kids do actually very little revision because so much is done at school and then say okay crack on you know you've got my support you know we're here for you and then let's take stock afterwards and see if your approach gave you what you wanted if you are kind of respectful and interested in advance then if the mocks tank you're going to have much more chance of a conversation of saying okay well you reckoned you could do this on like half an hour on the bus clearly that didn't quite play out quite how you expected you know so let's rethink you know if you can be unpressurizing on the route in then you can be much more helpful when it comes to those reflective conversations afterwards and if a kid reckoned they could just revise off TikTok and it didn't work then actually having a parent who's willing to say all right so what does it look like next time do we need to ring fence a bit more time do you need me to come on a bit stronger to support you you know you tend to get further that way and it's worth remembering that kids don't want to let people down they don't want to disappoint their parents and when they pull away from conversations I mean one of my kids definitely doesn't care but he's not actively trying to disappoint you but actually even if even if it looks like they looks like they don't care on the surface the fact is no kid wakes up in the morning and reckons today my game plan is i want to go to school and come home and feel ashamed of how i'm doing for sure like no one wants to feel ashamed so if you put a load of pressure in then you just increase the risk that your kid is going to feel ashamed of their efforts when they talk to you and if they feel ashamed of their efforts they're not going to talk to you about how hard they're trying and then it's going to be really hard to re-steer in yeah yeah that's i think i think we touched on it there but the other issue is that is it one size fits all because I have found having two children that nothing else is in parenting both my children um are quite different in a lot of way like really different in a lot of ways and in lots of times they need different approaches and different kinds of management and actually different sort of boundaries um so um and I think this Pete and I again when we were talking about this the other day this sort of applies to us as well because when I did my GCSEs I was I was just naturally quite sort of you know subservient and hard working and I just like just just did all the you know I just basically did all my own revision and you know my mum and dad were lovely and supportive but they didn't have to sort of put the screws on me at all because I just sort of did it and I pissed about a bit as well like all children but I did all right you know and I did well and I was trying to say to Pete you know leave him alone like he's you know and Pete was like but he's not like you he's like me um and I said but he's up there doing his work you know um and Pete said well but that's what I used to say I used to tell my parents that I was revising when actually um I was I was knackered because he used to be a swimmer right so he's getting up at half five every day to go to the pool and then go to school and then he'd come home and he'd be like yeah I'm gonna go and do my revision now and he'd just piss about and watch telly and he didn't even have a phone to piss about with now they've got I mean they're not into the phones but the whole thing so Pete's like so that's where Pete and I coming from two different experiences and it's we're really struggling to navigate that and I guess it's the answer is it depends on the child who probably is a mix because he's a mix of us a mix of both those things yeah no it totally depends on the child I think as well you know there'll be people listening to this who look back and think I would never have got to where I got to if my parents haven't pushed me but there are plenty of people for whom that is true of them and there's no doubt that a parent who's willing to kind of encourage can make a big difference but the fact is in our generation at school people were not talking about exams relentlessly and progress was not measured as regularly as it is now so that question of is it enough that you were saying before like every teenager at school is looking to the sides and thinking am i enough is it enough am i doing well enough you know is my mate doing better my parents going to be proud should I be trying harder and that whole thing of should I be trying harder you know back in our day we had a textbook maybe you know some notes like actually there was a limit to how hard we could try but for teenagers now it's potentially limitless because there's so many resources so many past papers so many apps and you know all the rest of it god I never thought that yeah no I had all the let's revision guides and I just used to go through them until they were done and then I go well I've done it yeah he's completed the game yeah yeah yeah it was fine yeah yeah and so you know one of the things i talk about in the book is when people are worried about working hard enough they think should we be pushing more at the starting line often it's more about are we clear about where the finish line is so my kid feels they can stop so you know if there's only push and the kid thinks it's never going to be enough you know my parents are always going to be saying you know you're on seven you might get an eight you're on eight you could push for a nine you know if there's only push because of this sort of limitless expanse that's why it can get so pressurizing and difficult so i think to go back to your question of you know you've got a kid and you know one of you thinks well i just cracked on it was fine and the other one thinks but you know someone needs to push me so we need to push the sun what i would say is you know by the time someone does gcse they're 15 16 like they've got their own sense of what they need and i'm a massive advocate and sitting down and saying to your kid right what do you want how can we help what's constructive what isn't and see what they say and it may be you don't agree with what they say and it may be you say actually do you know what we are going to say phones away or you know going to say no xbox or whatever you don't have to agree with your kids but if you listen to their opinion first about what they think they need from you two things will happen first of all if you properly listen to them they are more likely to listen to you next because most of the time when kids don't listen it's because they feel they haven't been heard but the second thing that will happen which is massive educationally is if you take your kids thoughts seriously they will take their own thoughts more seriously as well and so if rather than thinking we as parents need to have the perfect plan from the off you sit down and say right what do you think it looks like what's hard about revision when do you feel unmotivated what do you think would help you get motivated what type of revision is effective for you are you a last minute are you happy with that are you not you want to have it tidy and early you know take an interest in what they think because if you create the space for that and they actually verbalize it and talk it through they're going to make better better decisions and when i do coaching with kids of this age almost all i do is i just listen so that those kids have a chance to actually hear the good sense behind their own decisions and then typically they crack on better so start by listening just ask him just say you know are we pissing you off is it helpful is it not get his opinion and then position around that yeah what about extreme cases talking about either end of the spectrum and I've I've met both of these children um on one end you've got a child who becomes almost obsessed with advising and doing well and they look really stressed and anxious but they can't seem to stop and then at The other end, you've got the child who just doesn't care, doesn't take it seriously, doesn't see the point.

27:40You know, neither the carrot nor the stick works. They're not interested in your niceness or your threats. They're just like, I don't I don't give a monkeys. Now, do those children need different approaches or is it still about this core thing of just being supportive and listening to them and all of that? so I think the key thing that runs through all of this whether you're whether your kid is hyper engaged or disengaged or somewhere in the middle the key thing that runs through it is there has to be a suitable return on the effort so you put some effort in you know you do some revision you try at school and everybody you know teenagers and adults alike like we all want a return on our effort you know none of us want to put some effort in and think that was a waste of time exams are tricky because most people think the return on the effort is the grade so you have to put all this effort in and then wait you know weeks and months in a day to actually see whether the return is going to be right and if you get grades that are not the grades that you wanted or someone else expected then it feels like the effort was pointless so the kid who's fully disengaged often thinks there's no point trying because they'll never get there the kid who's hyper engaged has already invested so much they're terrified of missing out on the grades that they were hoping for terrified you mean terrified of finding out that was a waste so yeah exactly because if you have already been working really really hard for months and months and months and then you don't get the grades that you want and you know the guy next to you basically did nothing and you know did better that feels gutter yeah so you know whether your kid is disengaged hyper engaged or in the middle one of the most useful things to think about is what do they feel the return on their effort is because if they only think it's worth trying if they get an a or you know a b or whatever it is you're going to have a much riskier relationship with effort but instead if you've got somebody's really disengaged you say right you know i know you hate physics or you know whatever it is what you're going to do today why don't you just like bash out one set of questions i don't mind whether you get them right or wrong i'm just going to be so proud when this work exists how can we celebrate that you know cheer you on if you can just value that effort for its own sake rather than waiting for a grade then you build this safe return on the effort because a kid who knows i've bashed out a set of questions my mum's done happy it's much easier to put that effort in and likewise for the kid who's hyper engaged and is terrified that all that sunk costs is not going to generate what they want if a parent can say you know I can't guarantee the grades are going to be absolutely as you want but you need to know that we have seen how hard you've tried we couldn't be prouder of you that is true regardless of the grades you know if you can think about how to help your child feel that their effort is worth it right now regardless then you're going to find it much easier to motivate but the bit that doesn't work is so take these examples seriously it really matters because if a child doesn't believe that their effort is going to get the grades that they want being told to care more about those grades isn't going to solve the problem the thing that solves the problem is we value the effort this effort is worth it and we're going to help you see that by how we praise or reward or whatever it is so i love that that is that that is a practical thing we can do and as you're saying it i was like oh yeah my parents did yeah They did repeatedly, continuously tell me they did see how hard I was working and that they were proud of me and sometimes maybe you're doing a bit much.

31:15You know, they were taking notice. So there you are, Philip Larkin. It's not fucking true. I don't fuck you up, you mum and dad. At least mine didn't in that specific regard. Let's not go into the rest of it or we'll end up down a rabbit hole. But that's, again, that makes me feel better because that's a good practical thing that is within my power and skills to do is to say to my child, I see that you've done work today and I'm proud of you. Catherine, I want you to be on a roll. Give us more nuggets. So, you know, my next big thing would be remember that doing GCSEs or A-levels or end of year exams or whatever, it's very unlikely to be fun.

31:56Like, let's face it, the exams are not enjoyable and revision is normally boring. And honestly, I like to believe that as a teacher, you know, I like to think I'm a reasonably good teacher. I like to think my lessons are reasonably enjoyable. come year 11 my lessons are as tedious as anybody else's because we're just going round and round and round again so it's the end of the production line where you've just got yeah it's the best before date on the box it's like chewing an orange where even if it was a little bit juicy at first chew by the time you get to the end of year 11 it's like all you've got in your mouth is pith i mean it's just like that it's like being married for 20 years maybe no names maybe no names so the thing i would say is that at school kids have got to behave right no kid can put their hands up in my lesson and say mr dc your lesson is fucking boring like no kid can say that at school yeah but when they get home if you're willing to let them offload and say oh i cannot wait to give up physics or i'm so done with like english poetry or whatever if there's room for them to offload you're not going to make the subjects any better for them but just having someone saying i hear you i get it i recognize this is pissing you off that emotionally really helps and no matter where someone is on the kind of attainment you know effort whatever you know whole like caboodle there will be something at school that pisses them off on a regular basis in the run-up to exams so just be willing to listen listen to it because if they can offload they'll feel a bit lighter and on the whole once a teenager has properly done that i'm so pissed off with this it's actually a load easier to get started because at least someone understands why they didn't want to do it in the first place but if they feel that in order to be good in inverted commas they've got to love it and be interested and be positive and want to do it then you're setting the stakes quite high whereas actually if they can get it done even when they're sick of it then you've got a really reliable relationship with effort and that's nurturing nurturing oh good again i feel so much because our boys had to do religious studies last year for that and i was furious about that for again let's not go down that rabbit hole um but they were forced to do it and i did help charlie with his river you know just doing the flashcards and questions and stuff and you know and it was so boring yeah and so just i and i ended up saying to him i don't blame you for not wanting to do this because it's fucking boring it drives me mad so thank you for saying that i'm a better parent you slagged off not the teacher to be clear nothing is the teachers no no and i say this as a teacher who genuinely loves my subject but the fact is you know the people who choose the content of the subject that's not the kids sitting the exam they're not going to love all bits of it and you know with one of my sons on a sunday morning we used to have like time to have a swear about spanish morning you know every Sunday we'd sit down for half an hour and he'd just list all of the things that were driving him mad and they've got to have that outlet and if they can have that outlet and you as a parent can say I hear you I get you right do you know what crack on get it done and then we'll all have a bun or whatever afterwards just to you know who doesn't love a bun who doesn't really good exactly so do the physics have a kick out and we'll all you know have a round of applause that's the sort of thing that helps someone keep going when they don't want to do it and if they do want to do it you haven't got a problem so it's the how do you help them when they really have kind of run out of their own motivation be that kind of like emotional sponge soak up the fat that it's driving them mads and bribe them with sugar i like that oh god i love it no i just mean that's off to us you know because that will help them keep going i think i think it's you've said this haven't you helen it's like it's like survival like when you're it's a bit like you know when you have a baby and we always say it's like being in a war zone yeah i'm guessing it i mean you tell me but it's like that with GCSEs isn't it you just got to get through it yeah absolutely and and I

35:54Katherine Radice: you know I I have had times where I've said I know I've said the wrong thing like well you just should have started revising earlier and then that didn't work we were all upset and then the next time she got stressed I was like well you know you're doing fine and don't you know I I found when I didn't get stressed or blew up then that just sort of calmed things down so I felt like I was more of the captain of the ship more than the storm. And so, you know, I have done things wrong. And I have said to the, you know, the child the next day, I was like, I'm really sorry. I found this stressful too.

36:27Katherine Radice: I don't know what I'm doing. We're going to try and make this good together. And I'm sorry I overreacted. And she's like, I, you know, I understand, mum. And so there was that rupture and repair. But then, yeah, again, when I just asked, what do you want? I just want you to be there. Just want biscuits. I want you to, you know, just be in the room with me while I finish up. My goddamn art GCSE, you know, things like that. I'm like, yeah, I can do that. I can do that. And so I think that's it. And it is hard not to say, well, you know, I just went to my room and I did my thing. But no, it was such a revelation when you said, like, there was a finite amount.

37:04Katherine Radice: And I'm like, just watch a bite size. You know, you've got 15 minutes spare. Why aren't you listening to a podcast? Look at a flashcard. Anything. you know like you just like they're like whoa whoa whoa whoa just go home from school you know so I think um but having this now and reading this book now going into it I think it's really it's really good because you I I don't probably realize how much my children compare themselves to others we live in our little bubble of home and you know and we you know we sort of know what's going on at school but we really don't I mean and and I think you know my aim is sort of like you say having the long listen and like without interrupting just going no hold hold just let them say whatever they need to say and you know you might be the sponge and that just takes a bit of practice as well so true another thing about anger i mean like joking aside about the fact they might be pissed off with physics or whatever subject you know loads of teenagers as they go through adolescence and also exams feel really vulnerable you know they feel maybe they're not good enough maybe they should have been better you know all of those things it's quite hard for a teenager to open up about vulnerability it's much easier to open up about anger so actually creating space to listen to what is hacking them off means you'll also probably get closer to the stuff that you really need to understand so you know maybe you say to your kid right what really annoys you about exams and they might say it really annoys me that afterwards everyone wants to know what i got and what that is showing you is that they are actually feeling that hierarchy to be quite heavy but if you ask directly oh do you mind if someone does better than you you know that is is too close to the pain the chances are they're going to like shrug their shoulders and say i don't really care so actually being interested in where they feel anger because it is so much easier to talk about anger than it is to talk about inadequacy or you know vulnerability it's a really useful general parenting tip just be willing to listen when they want to complain and then saying, right, what are we going to do moving forward?

39:04Including when they want to complain about us. So I say in the book that, you know, I've had some pretty blunt feedback from my own children about my own parenting, I have to say. What they said. What they said. Do you know, there was, well, I mean, all sorts, all sorts. One of my, so my older son was said to me, Mum, I know you mean well, but I am advised out. And I was like, okay, okay. Yeah, thank you. Thank you, thank you. And, you know, I said to him when he was coming up to results day, anything you want me to know about you know how to help you through results day he said mom i want you to know if i don't get my grades i'm going to be really pissed off and what i'm not going to want is one of your speeches so all right write that down noted you know it's like day three maybe right diarize that you know but actually just being interested yeah in you know what you do that helps and what doesn't help and teenagers might not know what they want you to do differently in terms of like the positive stuff, but they'll definitely know what you're doing at the moment that isn't constructive.

40:01Yes, my son has been known to accuse someone in this house of delivering TED Talks, which none of us enjoy. Let's say that. Let's just say that. What about practical stuff? So again, I was one of those kids, man. I had all the highlighter pens for different coloured rulers, flashcards, little index cards, endless mind maps. Fucking love a mind map. I want to do one right now. Yes. So horny for mind maps. Do you, should you encourage your kids to sort of adopt those tools? How much should you push that sort of stuff? Or should you just let them crack on and revise in their own way? Yeah. So first of all, if you are the sort of parent who loves a mind map and had neat notes, take a deep breath.

40:48Because the fact is, if your kid doesn't love a mind map and doesn't have neat notes, that is going to stress you out. Right. But it doesn't mean they're going to do badly because there are plenty of kids who do just fine, who have never underlined a title ever and are not going to be fine. I know, I know. Deep breath. Deep breath. You don't know what you're saying. It's tough. It's big words here. Big words. Bold truth. Right. So if you are... If you are a poet... Just give her a minute. Hang on. Listen, I'm still breathing the loss of WH Smiths. This is too much. This is too much. Do I want a cup of tea?

41:24No, I want to stab myself in the fire with my compass from my excellent geometry set in brushed steel. Carry on. There are other ways. So point number one, if your kid doesn't love a mind map just because it worked for you doesn't mean they need a mind map. Okay? Thank God the big one does, but I've got a feeling about the second one. Look, make a mind map of your own stress. Like, you have that as a nice bit of mind map. No, but in real terms, like, the practical stuff that matters is are they going to bed are they getting enough sleep yeah are they eating are they turning up to school on time and do they have some idea of what lessons they've got that day at school so you know in one of my children's cases absolutely not they have a two-week timetable he literally doesn't know what week is it's day to day but that's why i say it right because actually lots of kids if they're in year seven year eight year nine they often haven't got a clue what's coming up tomorrow So like a bit of a chat of, oh, it's Tuesday.

42:21Look at the fridge. What is it on a Tuesday? Oh, you've got geography. Fine. You know, like a bit of the practical. Can they map their week in their own mind? That helps. Oh, an actual, a literal mind map. Like a literal mind map because the kid who can actually map their kind of, you know, tomorrow's Tuesday, therefore I do this. They're going to get less heat at school because they're going to know what's coming their way. so the practical side is are they ready to do the doing of school it's not do their notes have like sparkles and glitter on it's are they ready to turn up and actually if they're going to bed at a sensible time and they definitely are going to sleep because they're not just doom scrolling till two in the morning like sleep is a huge thing now in schools because so many teenagers are up so late so if they're going to bed at a sensible time if they are eating sensibly if you still see them laugh and smile you know if they are still enjoying their life to the side of their exams the mind map for their geography is really neither here nor that even if for us as parents would feel a bit calmer on the inside if we could see those like neat books but i look at my two sons you know one had immaculate books and the other couldn't care less and literally no difference in the grades so don't get distracted by the presentation think about how they're responding to the doing of being in school yeah that's the bit that matters what about because i know you mentioned tutors in the book now obviously for a lot if not the majority of us tutors isn't an option financially uh but for people who is an option do all kids um benefit from having a tutor should we all be getting them if we can afford it yeah big question um i think the whole thing with tutors is not as simple as it seems on the whatsapp group because on the whatsapp group if someone is paying out for a tutor and saying oh it's great you know they've got this one-to-one help it's very easy as a parent to think oh i should be doing this too but tutoring you know it can be effective right if for example there's been loads of staff absence if you know your kid hasn't had the same science teacher for you know more than like two minutes in a row or whatever if your kid is entirely disengaged with the subject then sitting down with the tutor for an hour a week like at least that is one hour a week where they're getting something done so tutoring can have its benefits but the major major kind of downside to that is as soon as you have two people explaining the same thing it becomes more complicated and your kid is at school for you know two to three hours of curriculum time per gcse subject anyway and if you bring tutoring into the mix there's a real risk that what happens is the kid disengages in class and I can think there's so many teenagers who are like I don't need to listen miss I'm going to do it with my tutor but the fact is one hour with the tutor is not going to make up for you know two hours worth of curriculum time in school so I put some stuff into the book about if you are going to get a tutor here's what needs to happen to make sure that the tutoring supports the project at school rather than undermines it and the other thing about tutoring is there's only so many hours in the day so you know if you're kind of paying for a tutor basically to get your kid to do their homework under supervision you know maybe that has a value but it's quite pricey it's quite difficult for a tutor to properly support the projects of what's happening in school because what often happens is the tutor says do you know it and the kid says no and then the tutor re-explains it and then all they've got is like twice the number of notes and twice the explanations and that doesn't necessarily make it easier so i don't want to kind of you know bash the tutors there's lots of fantastic people out there who are tutors there's also a lot of people who don't know anything about teaching like there's loads of people who did well in their exams themselves who then get paid out to be tutors like just because they themselves got an a in their a-level biology doesn't mean they're actually going to be useful for your kid doing year 10 biology you know who's got a very different sort of profile i think tutoring is not quite the silver bullet that people think and if you are like many people up and down the country not paying out for tutors don't feel guilty about not paying out genuinely that's don't feel guilty well i feel like i've been to a confessional with an excellent priest how any any further questions thorn um i

46:47Katherine Radice: I guess the last one would be about results day. And I think that can be, especially because, you know, you've got through the exams, you've had, you know, you've probably got through Reading and Leeds. You've got through the summer and then you all have to rock up to the school. And I think that sick feeling they all have. And I know you've written about in the book, but I was going to ask about, you know, how to support your child on that day. You know, there's going to be two out. They're either happy or sad, aren't they? you know because like yeah i think i think the reflex here is as parents when our kids cry we want to make them feel better like that is the reflex that is so old you know it's the first thing we try and do when we bring our babies home yeah and therefore on results day you know there is a risk of tears right and it might be that you know your kid has got fantastic grades but it wasn't quite the grades they want and therefore my main message is if your kid is sad on results day don't be too quick to try and wash that away right because that disappointment that sadness like it needs its space there it's a grief right it's grief it's like we've talked about on the podcast before grief isn't always about bereavement it can also be used to describe that the the grief or the loss of a future that you saw ahead of you that now isn't absolutely all of the hope all of the motivation that you know that kid might have had to keep going with all of their revision you know if they are disappointed even if their grades are great that disappointment is legit so where i think results day goes a bit wrong is when with the best of intentions we as parents jump into oh but it's great it's all fine like you don't need to be upset because if we just try and close down that upset by saying it's all fine then there isn't actually any space to soothe that upset so So if someone's disappointed, they're actually just being willing to give a hug.

48:39So I hear that. I hear it hurts. I hear that everyone else is telling you to be pleased with your results, but you're still disappointed. I hear that. And actually, sometimes when they get their grades, they can feel a bit nervous about, you know, going off to the thing that they hoped they were going to do. Like there's all sorts of mixed emotions. So just give those emotions a bit of time and space. And then once they've had a little bit of space to kind of have a cry, have a hug, say, look, I know it doesn't feel this way at the moment. but there's going to be all sorts of ways you can make the best of you know blah blah blah blah blah and the other very practical bit of advice i'd give is particularly if you're waiting for a level results or anything where there is a real kind of knock on whether you go in here or there right big stakes yeah big stakes when emotions are high it's quite hard for a teenager to think and when it's things like asking for remarks or phoning up universities there's quite a lot of process in that and therefore a parent who's on top of their who do we email do you have your ucas number what needs to be done by phone what needs to be done by email like if as a parent you know the process for the bits that might have to go fast then that's really helpful because it was built for that shit kathleen there you go is you gonna be ready listen they came to her flight to chicago the other day oh my god i've got your new one within 90 minutes babe it was a fucking

49:55Katherine Radice: new one oh my god she and it was better than the original flight it was incredible oh there's so many reasons i love this award but this this is excellent i was made for this she's so good in a crisis you know yes you're sorted yeah yeah but also terrible at many other things but again let's not go down that rabbit hole now let's this is where you come good yeah exactly that is one thing i can do is make a phone call in a crisis i can't put out a fire or teach english or uh you know uh make rice but i can i can do admin so well so well that's really lovely advice because i think uh yeah it's it's a heightened situation for for all and also again and again it's very public you know I think uh you know when when we get those results and everybody wants to know what that what the mark was and all that sort of thing so and and we own we have to yeah protect the kids a bit that way but it is a weird system where they all go to the bloody you know PE hall and they're all and you can see them opening their thing it's a hive of emotions and things like that and my my girls um school they opened it and then they walked down the thing and then they had to line up to enroll in sixth form and you could see the kids who hadn't got the marks they weren't going to enroll with the others and i just thought don't oh it was really cruel and like oh so you're not joining the no so you well obviously got less than that and the kids don't do that i know i felt that was like it was really it was really harsh because yeah you might as well go right you down hear you trap door yes it was a bit like that it was down the chute it felt a bit yeah it was really i felt really sorry for you know there was curly kids who were later going oh i can't wait to choose my subject you know you're in and then other kids who were absolutely sobbing into their mums and it's a mixture because there's some schools who say come in and there's some schools who say stay at home i think as a general rule like even though it is hard to be in school opening results if your kids are at school where they say come in that's probably a good thing because at least it means that a kid gets to see a teacher sometimes before they see a parent so I'm actually like very pro kids being in schools because sometimes actually parents react in a way to results it's really difficult like you know there are parents say things like I'm ashamed of you I can't believe you know and so actually having kids in school so they have access to you know the support team at school quite a lot of the schools who still bring kids in do it partly to make sure that there is that support there yeah but as you say it's a high octane day and actually just being ready to you know pick up and hug and be calm and positive yourself without belittling the feelings that are there you know and it will settle down no matter how churny it is on results day give it a week and it'll be calmer but you just have to be quite a steady presence through that too yet oh i'm so calm i know it's lovely i just want you to come and run my life katherine please yes we need you i'll do as many mind maps as you want oh thank you no problem sign me up no problem get me a flight mind map my life oh most women have been there something feels off you don't feel like yourself yet your doctor says everything looks fine spoiler it's your hormones midi is a virtual care platform built for women by women and offer specialized hormone care from trained clinicians.

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55:25Look, I feel like this podcast has been incredibly educational and informative. Let's ruin all that now. Yes, yes, please. With some scummy mummy confessions.

55:35Katherine Radice: Okay, I will kick off because mine is relevant to teenagers. So on Saturday night, I had a party and my son is 15. My daughter's nearly 18. And I think he was determined to get drunk. Right. And I was like, all right, let's see. So I'd had like, there was, you know, buckets of cider and buckets of, you know, this, that. And then there was, and he's like, have you got any, you got any vodka? I was like, yeah, we've got vodka. We've got gin and all that sort of stuff. And he's so, so quietly, quietly, he gets drunker and drunker. And then towards the end of the night, we're like, I think it's time that you, you went to bed.

56:15Katherine Radice: so me and my partner put him to bed and he told us how much he loved us so much there was a lot of gosh we had to put a bucket next to the bed and he threw up and he threw up again and in the morning threw up again and then another shower and threw up again and then um yes he promised us that he's like oh god i am never is this what this is like is this what drunk is and you know had to have a nap and all sorts of things he's like i'm never drinking again i've learned my lesson I've seen the error of my ways I know so we've all done it we've all done it and I said look it really wasn't that bad but I said you know as a mum I we have to sort of learn these lessons ourselves and I said I was never going to let you get too drunk but also to have a horrific hangover when you're 15 and a half it's not a bad thing and we were you were amongst friends you're at home you didn't have to get home you went in a taxi or you know out at Reading and Leeds or whatever and I said okay and he's like oh no I feel all I never want to feel this awful ever again so it was sort of a weird learning thing and then yeah he had to clean out the buckets had to clean his pillow yeah so it was a bit of a it was a bit of a learning curve and very very scummy oh mine is a little follow-up actually I don't even know if this is confession but it's but do you remember on the last podcast I said that my son had told his grandmother my mother that he hadn't had a conversation with me for two months yes yes that was hilarious and I felt bad about that but also that that was probably an exaggeration yes because he's quite a dramatic person um and I did but I did also think there's probably some valid feelings right there he's obviously we'd had a really busy busy week hadn't we and yeah um I hadn't been around much and so I sat him down I said hey you know grab it you know I think you've been maybe feeling a bit like disconnected and we haven't spent a lot of time together and he was like yeah a bit and I was like and you talked to grandma about it and he's like yeah I mean a bit I mean it's not it's not really a big deal and I said well I think maybe it's okay if it is a big deal because you know grandma said that you haven't you and I haven't spoken for two months and he went what I mean well two two months that's what you said and he was like oh no I was talking about Inga who's his old child mind who obviously is still is a dear dear member of the extended family but like she doesn't live in our house no and she's quite busy she runs our tour now yeah yeah yeah so we don't see her that often no no it would be a couple of months between every couple of months she comes around she brings the kids we have a cup of tea it's all very nice and then she goes away but like no we don't see her every so he had mentioned to mum that he was missing me yeah but then he'd started talking about Inga and they've been across wire.

59:03Oh, I see.

59:04Katherine Radice: Yes, yes. I can see that could happen. Yes. So there you go. I feel better. Thank you. Good, good. Catherine, do you have a scummy mummy confession you'd like to share? Do you know I do? Oh, good. Yesterday morning, leaving for work. Recent as well. Yes, yes. Fresh. I have to be in the classroom 9am. Hard deadline. Can't be late. As I'm getting close to leaving, I realise that our downstairs loo has blocked. but it's a non-problematic blockage because whatever had blocked it blocked after departure right so what i've got in the so it is human i mean it's just it is faecal matter it's faecal matter but it's on the inside it's gone it's on the espn so you can walk into our downstairs loo without wanting to help great so as long as you can say for mine at any time so that's good suboptimal but not problematic so haven't got time to put my hand down the u-band so i think you know what if you've got a block loo the main thing is you just need to not add to the situation right yeah so i go around my family speak to my husband speak to my son eyes on proper engagement do not do not use the downstairs loo fine off i go act two uh-oh i'm at work i'm hearing a little ping on my phone and i see a text from my younger son which starts with the words soz mum i forgot oh no and i think oh my days anyway he says don't worry mom i'll put up a sign i won't do it again oh no okay anyway so this is something that could happen to our households as well yeah yeah so he said i had a go flushing it but it's all still there and in fact it looks worse because it didn't really go anywhere i'm like right okay thanks i'm not gonna go into more details your listeners might be you know having a cup of tea yeah we can yeah yeah i get home and a bit you know a bit like you i think this is a learning moment you know he can unblock the loo for himself he forgot you know whatever but act three the twist in the tail is that to get your hand right down the u-bend you need the special cleaning gloves right yeah i just put on your washing up gloves you need like the special thick heavy duty leather gloves not leather rubber gloves yeah and quite long it's looking like a white like a proper hat like like a veterinarian um you know birthing a cow so I say to my son look you've got to come and do this I'll teach you what to do you know happy days turns out that because my son is 6 foot 5 and massive oh no his hand wouldn't fit in the glove if the glove doesn't fit the glove did not fit if the glove doesn't fit you can't fish out the shit exactly so living the dream here living the dream defaulted to me and I tell you oh mum you know all my days you know when my boys were little I was ok changing a nappy but dealing with your son's I mean just no anyway so there we go oh Catherine but we got it fixed in the end he had to stand by my side I said I'm not letting you out of here and I'm done no no no you've got a witness can she fix shit yes she can Catherine you're an inspiration there we go oh my god that's brilliant oh mate no no that's excellent yes that is what a wonderful story I'm so glad I went to hug you and not shake your hand when we met that's what I love that What a way to end.

1:02:17There you go. No, it was a lovely, scummy end note. Yes. All that wonderful insight, helpful advice, gentle parenting. Yes. And deep down, you're just as filthy as the rest of us,

1:02:27Katherine Radice: Catherine. Excellent guest. What an excellent podcast. What an excellent book, which is now very much available. The Parent's Guide to Exams, Stress. You can get it at all good bookstores and probably terrible bookstores as well and online. It's great. And it's available on audiobook. And you've got a sub stack, Catherine. I've got a sub stack. Just type my name in. have been radici exactly and there it is with an e all right Ellie may you please put that in the notes for the podcast as a link yes we will put that in the Helen very often it's a running joke that Helen likes to say we'll put that in the show notes as if the we as if she's ever ever written a sentence of the show notes in 13 years not my wheelhouse I I will put that in the show notes everyone yes I will yes thank you You are welcome.

1:03:17Excellent. What I will also put in the show notes is a link to scummymummys.com, which is a website you may visit if you would like to buy tickets to our comedy show.

1:03:26Katherine Radice: Yes, we're doing a lot of shows in the next couple of weeks in the lead up to Christmas. Yeah, we've only got a few more shows of hot mess left. I'm going to be quite sad to see it go. I know. Our last show's in Maidenhead. Yes. Yes, so come along to that. But you may live somewhere else, like Ireland. oh and so come to the shows there Derry Dublin Galway and Belfast yes that'd be brilliant and then we're doing a show in Woolwich which is down the road which would be great and then we're doing some Christmas shows in Brighton Canterbury Trowbridge Farnham uh Cardiff and possibly South Norwood yes very exciting time so it's all kicking off and that's that's it I think yes I I think it was, what a great, great episode.

1:04:11Katherine Radice: What a good time. Oh, lovely. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast and being so useful. Thanks for listening. As always, listener. Yes. Thank you for listening. Until next time. Bye-bye. Bye. Bye.

1:04:30Katherine Radice: Right, I'll do this one. Lovely, lovely. Okay. Ready, everybody? Hello and welcome. Why are you laughing? I don't know. I haven't said anything. Sorry.

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