346: Em Clarkson LIVE at Big Feastival

0:00Helen Thorn: Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like. And that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance, and some pay as little as$0, depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments.

0:37Helen Thorn: You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash ACAST. That's growtherapy.com slash ACAST. growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

1:23Ellie Gibson: Hello scumbags, this is the Scummy Mummies Podcast. With your hosts, Ellie Gibson and Helen Thorne.

1:36And welcome to the stage, Helen and Ellie from the Scummy Mummies Podcast!

1:45Hello!

1:46Ellie Gibson: Hello, hello, hello! Hello, how are you doing? yeah oh it's sunday isn't it oh it feels all feels a bit like we're in an airport waiting for a flight home but it's okay yes because the sun is shining yes yes yes oh we're on day three who smells really bad yes who hasn't brushed their teeth for over 48 hours oh yes some some My children, there they are. There you go. Brilliant. Let's ask the kids a question. Kids, kids, who has seen their mummy have too many wines and trip over a trolley? Anyone? Yes, there we go. A few. A couple there. Yes. Oh, my kids are playing cards during my podcast. Yeah, that's really nice.

2:30Ellie Gibson: That is. I'm so sorry to interrupt your card game, boys. Yeah. Just at work. That's really nice, isn't it? They love me so much. Excellent.

2:40Helen Thorn: Who's had a shower with a wet wipe today? Anyone?

2:43Ellie Gibson: on give us a cheer brilliant who's found a vape in their dad's jeans pocket yes excellent who thinks they might have worms i did see a couple of you scratching as we came out so very good

2:58Helen Thorn: very strong i know i think we've got a very scummy audience here but we're very thrilled i don't think this this lady's pretty scummy but she's pretty fabulous we've got a guest today people you probably know who she is but she is the wonderful the fabulous em clarkson everyone come on down

3:17Ellie Gibson: here she is you've got a whole sofa to yourself you get your own sofa look at that oh yes oh yes don't bring your shoes and the furniture for god's sake sorry i am turning into my mother i'm 48 it's

3:29Helen Thorn: just what happens and wonderful wonderful now we're thrilled to have em on now we're doing oh god That's a lovely sound. Yes, that's right. That's good. I'm so sorry, I shouldn't have had those lentils. It's the worms, is it? Now, we're delighted you're on the podcast, Em. Now, you're a podcaster, writer, author, mother of two, amazing advocate for women. You're a runner, the founder of the Havagos, a blogger. You've done it all. You've done it all. Have I missed anything out? No. No, okay. Just done it all.

4:03Ellie Gibson: She hasn't invented penicillin or anything. It's not over-egg it. Decent stuff on the internet.

4:10Helen Thorn: Yeah, no, we're thrilled to have you on. What we thought we'd do today, we wanted to talk to you about all the wonderful things you've done and also just who you are and your experiences. And we thought we would talk about today about identity as mothers. We've got a few mums in the house today, have we? Give us a cheer if you're a mum. It's a big old change when you become a mum. So I thought maybe we'll start off with that because that's been something you've documented so well. It's really good that the music next door is very loud as well. I think they've just turned it up, which is excellent.

4:39Helen Thorn: I think that's great. Would you like me to sing this next bit? Yes, if you could, if you could.

4:44Ellie Gibson: We've got cards here, we've got music there. It's like being in Las Vegas, Helen.

4:47Helen Thorn: That's, again, ideal for a podcast. Yes, exactly. So I thought I'd start off with the podcast about how you sort of found your new identity after becoming a mother yourself because it's something that you've been such a great advocate for other women and brought them along with you on your journey. I have been so surprised by how much I've loved being a mom I think I was so frightened when I got I remember crying to my mom the night before my eldest was born being like I think I've ruined my life and she was like what on earth is wrong with you this is this is of course you have yeah she literally looked at me like I was completely broken but I think the algorithm does something to pregnant women it sends you the very worst sort of adverts for motherhood and I've I have loved it I absolutely adore it but the identity thing I find it I was all right having a baby having kids has been because I've got a three-year-old and a one-year-old when I walk around with the baby I'm like it's like having the L plates on there's so much like forgiveness six people oh look she's here with a baby when you're with a kid I'm like oh shit like sorry um that's that's the problem with a baby you can say whatever and it's like oh we're all learning but when you've got a child so I'm I'm finally adapting into like grown up I drove my mum's Volvo here today and as I was doing it I was like this is mum behaviour and that's where I'm like struggling a bit with like oh gosh I've aged myself a bit but you know it's it's like I just oftentimes I'm doing stuff and I'm thinking when's the grown-up coming when it's like help that never ends I keep I keep looking around no no no I've got a 17 year old and a 15 year old and I keep going oh when I feel like the babysitter does anyone else like I they're looking at me to go mum what's the answer I'm like I don't know ask chat GPT ask your grandma I don't know exactly exactly and I think I I'm going to just quickly do a quick poll for the audience who here is a mum who here's the mother they thought they were going to be anyone silence absolute no one literally

6:40Ellie Gibson: not one person and we asked that question at our shows to hundreds of people no one's ever put their hand up no it's so funny isn't it that's the thing I think we all thought we were all going to

6:48Helen Thorn: be all wooden toys and hummus and then you know i like that that's the big laugh yeah yeah yeah it's c-b-b's and haribo isn't it yeah exactly or it's hummus in the wooden toys and then you're not gonna get the wooden toys back out again because they stink and they're soggy or wait till you get to teenage then it's vapes and the manosphere something to look forward to not in my house the amount of vapes i will take the manosphere i will fight mind you i'm lucky because i've got two daughters and i just thank my stars every day because i'm like i'm so out I don't know what you, Godspeed.

7:20Ellie Gibson: Yes. What we do is we just keep them locked up in a little box most days and they put their phones in the bin. That's the answer. There you go, that's good parenting for you. Wooden toys and hummus is probably there. Yes, but are you the kind of mum you thought you'd be? And if not, how is it different? I'm at this funny point because, like I say, I still feel like I'm quite early in it. So once they say the path to hell is paved with good intentions and I still feel like I'm kind of on that sometimes. and you find yourself, you know, like, yeah, I'm nailing it, I'm nailing it, I'm nailing it, and then you say something so unhinged, and you're like, oh, for fuck, what do I say that for?

7:53I said this morning, I was like, well, obviously, you'll never watch television again, and then I'm like, well, you probably will, but, and then I'm backtracking, and I'm like, this is, my mum never did this, the amount of time I spend walking backwards, trying to make everything make sense, so, no, nothing like the mother I thought I'd be, but the trick I found, I think, with all of it, is just not to think too much. I think every time I start thinking too much, I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. It's just, we don't need that.

8:18Helen Thorn: No, I think that's it. I think, you know, it's a bit like at the start of the school holidays, isn't it, where you think, we're just going to do lots of wonderful activities and all these wonderful good intentions.

8:28Ellie Gibson: We're going to go on picnics and collect driftwood and make a dream catcher. No, we're not. We're going to go and see Toy Story 5 twice because it's raining. That's what we're going to do. I do feel, I feel lucky on that. My sister, five years younger than me, she said she was coming I don't know if she's here so I'll tell her in case she's not had a dead bug box when we were kids a what? a dead bug box like a box of dead bugs that she collected sounds like the star of the wasp factory I know well it got worse because after that it just became dead pets in general and I feel like I'm already putting her on blast as I was going to call someone but I do feel like the longer I go in mothering I'm like she hasn't got a box of dead bugs we're probably okay yeah we're going to be fine like they're all the pet we've got is living and everything else is in the garden so I think we're okay.

9:13Helen Thorn: No, that is very good. It's very weird. Yes, I don't want to show off or anything but my children went to Australia for four weeks for the whole holidays. They didn't want to go, you should just put them on the ship.

9:24Ellie Gibson: Like in the old days. In the British tradition

9:26Helen Thorn: I sent them away, I sent them off to Australia but I do remember the relentlessness of early motherhood and having a one year old and a three year old is the trenches. Would you say that, other mothers? Yes. Thanks. I think that helps yes no because I I got told there is nothing harder than the first two years of the second child yes yeah I said this to someone last night I found I don't know anyone else had two has gone from one to two and everybody says a lot nothing helpful but when I had after I had xanthi my baby it was like I try and say to people now emotionally so much easier physically exhausting but it is the kind of exhausted that I get to the end of the day and I'm like jacked up on it like I'm like in the kitchen I'm like whoa like that was a ride and I do that every day and you're like me we do the marathons and I think if you've got that predisposition to just suffer and you kind of don't it's all right or mentally it's all right you're physically tired but you're mentally gone I'll see you all in five years I knew I wasn't right when I was in a supermarket and I was bouncing but I didn't have a baby on me has anyone else done that yeah yeah because you're so used to like everything's fine everything's fine i'm bouncing a baby and um yeah

10:43Ellie Gibson: yeah i was once in ikea why was i going to ikea with a baby that's a stupid thing to do anyway but i was in ikea and i put him in the little seat and then sort of about an hour later i was sort of pushing him around ikea this trolley like a zombie uh that one in the stripy t-shirt and then suddenly i looked in the little seat and i was like oh my god where's he gone he's been kidnapped he's been kidnapped oh my god where's he gone and then i remembered that about 20 minutes previously he'd been moaning so I'd strapped him to my chest I was like oh thank god thank god yes and also once I went to pour myself a glass of wine while I was putting a wash on as a reward for putting the wash on and then I picked up the glass of wine as I poured myself a glass of fabric conditioner so it's easily done isn't it it's easily done but have you because we so we've been doing scummy mummies for 13 years and yeah we've been doing parenting for even longer so sometimes weirdly we get asked for advice about parenting and as you might have already gathered we know nothing yes very little um i have learned never promise anything you all probably know this right if your kids are older than babies you never promise anything even if you're completely certain it's going to be fine you never say we'll definitely go to the toy shop in two hours because if you say that the minute you say that a hurricane will come in and close the toy shop or there'll be a power cut or it'll be awful.

12:04Ellie Gibson: Have you got any nuggets of wisdom that you've learned as cast iron nothing? No, literally. I am on fumes. No. Oh, my God, sorry. No, no, it's not your fault. I think it's me. I'm out of practice. If you look at it for too long, it gets kind of weird that you're just holding it there. Yes, I know. No, I do. I try and be, I tell you, truthfully, if we'll be serious, I do try and just be a bit positive about it because I know like it's so comforting to have the like oh god it's so hard but I actually do love it and I love it so much more than what I thought I would and I think I just try and give that to people I just try and give like I don't know a little bit of like a little bit of my love for it yeah I don't know how helpful that is for anyone but then you know we're all just doing our best and I think that we could do with a bit more of that this is me we could do with a bit more of that just the ability of the the space to be like oh god we're really doing a good job i'm really doing a good job yes my god the way i beat myself up in a way my husband like cannot relate and i and that sometimes i think that doesn't seem right that was a weird design fault that you would give the one all the guilt do you know what i mean you could have allocated that better um so probably less

13:22Helen Thorn: guilt but otherwise i think i think that's it and also i remember talking to my mum about this and she said gosh your parenting has become much more public you know oh no now we've got a drop beat

13:33Ellie Gibson: that's good yeah this is all going very well why don't we do more like speaking turn it up again

13:39Helen Thorn: that's what i said to them but she said you know you know there was you know one or two tv channels you went to one play group but now everything we do now is a lot online and we compare ourselves and I think you know it is that old thing of comparison is the thief of joy like am I am I doing enough and especially I'm sure you'll find in the school holidays you're like oh god you know that mom from school's done something better than us and you get yes we've watched Toy Story on repeat or whatever so I think that can be I think when we're in this new space of social media I think that can put an extra pressure on us oh good but you know we're all guilty of it I do social media for a job I don't share my kids and I'm mindful of that although you know we're all just doing our best there but I do I'm so aware that like within not sharing my kids you also don't share the terrible bits the tantrums the and it's such an exhausting sort of ecosystem we've made online in this motherhood space because you do just spend whether it's and you and I don't know about you guys but I will read it and I've done this for a job for 10 years and I still do that thing where you look at people and you write their whole story for them I do it all the time I do it even when someone runs past me i'm like oh god look at her she must have been going for four hours and she hasn't even she's probably just left the house but you do that thing you know you always put yourself on the bottom and on social media we do it so relentlessly and it's such it's so savage and and and i i honestly i feel like it should you should get a tattoo at birth that just like you're the best mother for your children and there's just not enough of that online at all you know we're all doing our best for our kids what they're doing it wouldn't work it mightn't work doesn't like you we're not going to do it doesn't you know no comparison is fair and no comparison is equal there's no point but it's the the the insidious nature of comparison is so cruel in motherhood and and i think the algorithms really exacerbate that and it feels

15:28Ellie Gibson: very unfair yes absolutely so do you how much do you engage with the comments because you put a lot of content out there and often really strong great stuff really opinionated stuff do you read all the comments do you you know what or do you just kind of go no this is what it depends so I had I was really ill when I was pregnant so on the motherhood side I don't share a lot about my kids but the pregnancy I had I had hyperemesis with both and my second daughter I was really really poorly and I was so grateful for the community that I ended up with cry every time I think about it but those comments I couldn't get enough of because to hear from other people who've been where you are who got through what you are going through epic that I'm like oh my god give me give gimme gimme gimme anything else absolutely not I do I taught a lot of politics and after the first 24 hours when I'm served as rage bait to everyone on the internet who hasn't left their house in a few days I just think nah no don't need to do that and I did and actually having kids has been the best thing because I do not have the time anymore I was you know before when when I had more time which is so annoying to say sorry but you know when you're going and you're like oh what am I going to do with myself I'll just read about myself and I'll just read about all these people's opinions and i'll just make it all about me and thank god i don't have time to do that anymore it's so freeing i'm like it's not about me anymore i can just like let them all be wrong um so that's quite freeing so i just i try not to and i do think you know the internet's got so weird and i do do a lot of you know feminist political um anti-reform stuff and when by the time that served to the people that the the algorithm wants it to go to i just think well you're just going to shout at me now i don't need to be here for this i'll just let you do you so yeah, no, not really at all to be honest, I haven't seen my phone in days coming to see you guys today, didn't know what time didn't know where, I haven't picked up my phone for ages

17:10Helen Thorn: I think that's really good and I think it's about finding that balance and I'm sure, because there is nothing more exciting than your phone I think a lot of the time, so it's a programme to make you want to spend more and more time with it, and I've got, how have you got to that way of finding that balance, do you know when you've had too much if you're like, alright Oh, my God, yeah. Yeah, God, yeah. The internet makes us so weird. Like, sometimes I'm angry about stuff. I'm like, well, am I angry? This doesn't matter. This doesn't matter. This isn't real. Mind you, I do that a bit much sometimes because I make videos for a job, which is ridiculous.

17:42And I'll get to the end of my day and I'm like, there's nothing. These are pixels. Like, I've been... And my daughter, my three-year-old, looked over my shoulder the other day at something I was editing and she went, did you have a nice time upstairs talking to yourself, mummy? And I was like, yes. and it's like this is this is the stupidest thing in the world so um that perspective's been that's it's i've been humbled to be honest it's just like oh no this is ridiculous and it's so stupid and why do i care so what you know why have i been getting my knickers in a twist because all i'm

18:12Helen Thorn: really doing is talking to myself i think that's really good because i really um i loved your post recently about the phrases that you're not going to use anymore i don't know if you want to share them with the audience because i think especially for the younger generation i think these i i found all of us yes for all of us yeah i mean and women's women specifically the language that we use i talk about language a lot i'm fascinated by language and the language that women use and i do it all the time i think just is the most interesting word in the world that we all we do it all the time and it's like oh yeah just me like what do you mean just me like why are you instantly you're like i'm here and i'm never mind and it's like we go into every room and we're big and then we're small and it's like no worries if not it's like well there are worries if not why am i why am i lying to you trying to make you more comfortable and i think there's so much language that we use that is designed to make us more palatable, to make us smaller, to make us easier.

19:00And I just say, actually, you know what? I've got other stuff to do. Like, I can't just... If you find me difficult, then, like, more fool you. Do you know what I mean? It's like, if I'm too hard a Sudoku or whatever, go and do an easier one. Like, if this is... I can't dumb myself down for you anymore. So I'm trying. Oh, my God, you should watch me censor my own emails. No exclamation marks anymore. I know.

19:19Ellie Gibson: Oh, sorry. Don't say that to me. She can't. You're faking it. you're faking it and that's all it is and you're not kidding yourself it's like hiya you're not like what is your favourite how do you like to punctuate your messages Helen most of my text messages

19:33Helen Thorn: are kisses

19:33Ellie Gibson: yes she writes she writes text messages I can do a kiss and emails like telegrams you know like old kids won't know but in the olden days people used to send these messages that were like hello stop how are you stop Helen will do that but she'll go hello kiss how are you kiss sorry your grandma died kiss by the way you owe me 500 pounds kiss hey you would rather that than what my mum still does, which is full stop. Hello, full stop. Your grandma died. Full stop. Sorry, if I've got a choice, I'm going with... Give me a kiss after her. That's what I do. You're not supposed to do that. Hello, happy wedding.

20:03No, nothing. When I get a message from my mum and it just says, hello, full stop, I'm like, fuck. What's happening?

20:09Helen Thorn: Oh, no. Brace, brace position. What's happening? I hate... I have to say, yeah, I'm strong on the language, but the punctuation... Full stops have no place in my vocabulary. I'll go forever.

20:19Ellie Gibson: No, I'm with you on exclamation marks. no exclamation mark no because that is just faking yes yes that's a that's an orgasm in an email

20:26Helen Thorn: it's just no one's believing that oh i i oh who did that i am stomach's like see you see you it's like no shut up you don't want to see them listen you know like mind you guys i preach all of this i have had the same phone the guy who gave me my phone contract when i was 12 is called gary i am overpaying like you wouldn't believe will i break up with him no and it's all done over email and i put kisses at the end of it i've never met this man and i will not leave i'm in such an So I practice it and I'm like, be strong, be bold, don't. And then when Gary emails, I'm like, yes, Gary. Can't wait to pay you, Gary!

20:59Kiss, kiss, kiss. So I don't know. I'm full of it. I'm trying. I'm a mess.

21:07Helen Thorn: Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like. And that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance and some pay as little as$0 depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments.

21:43Helen Thorn: You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash ACAST. That's growtherapy.com slash ACAST. growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. I think that's a really good message because I think sometimes the people who are our inspiration or our motivation, we think, oh, they never have an off day.

22:36Helen Thorn: You know, they've got it all together. and I think one of the great gifts of social media is that we have been able to say, none of us know what we're doing. We're just kind of faking it. We're just turning up. I make all the content for me. Everyone's like, God, thank you. You really helped me. I'm like, I'm having myself. This was not a selfless endeavour. I am talking to myself. Yeah, yeah. A hundred percent. If I ever share anything a bit too deep, it's like, well, read into that that I'm going through something because it's always, this is always for me. like and I think we all do that you know to an extent which is again quite a good thing you know they say that when people talk a lot about themselves when they're talking to you you know you can always and I think there's a lot of that on social media too and I think we I hope in schools is like as we sort of keep going although god knows the adults need it too we can start understanding a bit more I think like psychology and subtext to the way that we operate online I think that needs to be part of a conversation yeah because it's lacking at the moment so we take everything at face value yeah i think that's it and i think i got i got some good advice once about you know especially when i was in my uh post-divorce messy phase for a couple of years and i a friend said talk to yourself like you were talking to your daughter as in talk to yourself with some care yeah you know don't put up with some bs don't yeah don't shrink yourself and i think there was something about having a daughter and i was like oh no i've got to i've got to stand that bit taller i'm i'm i'm sort of the role model and same with my my son but i i think that that's something that was really good advice because i i'm was very good especially growing up you know in in australia where you know i encountered a lot of sexism and and and was brought up to be quiet and small i i i'm like a continual self-coach for myself just like no no you can say no it's all right you know so um i don't know how has that changed for you over the over the years yeah having my kids has totally radicalized me and it's annoying obviously because and they they you know they say about activism that when you know parents we've got such a massive like drive for it but we just have the time or you know like whatever else to sort of give to your causes but i think that's such an interesting point because the sexism that you speak about i think so much of it is so like sort of within our it's so baked into how we go and i think a lot of it is just so internalized and it is how we speak to ourselves and it is that we censor ourselves or shrink ourselves or appalling oh my god it's not a whole i got told off by my friend jane who came with me today because i kept saying sorry that you're coming and she stopped saying sorry and it's just so weird that you just instinctually you're like oh god sorry that i'm alive and breathing and everything and are you okay i'm sorry sorry and it's just so stupid but we do so much of that and i honestly i i say this all the time my husband if i could gift one thing to every woman it would just be his ability to just do things because it's just there's no sorry there's no exclamation mark there's just hi yeah this is the fact and i'm gonna go now i'm like whoa revolutionary yeah quite but it's not rude because he's like you know he's a man so it's fine and but i think there's so much of it that that i absorb and yes having and with my eldest daughter i've just copy and pasted myself she's just a tiny me in every in every way which is quite great quite terrifying at times she has a tantrum i'm like oh god that's relatable losing over nothing i'm like oh there we there we go that's there that's me too um but yeah no i think having having them and you just realize that like they you know you don't we're mirrors and we're teachers and we are their first inner voice right and it's like you i don't want them to watch me mind you actually on that i did we do affirmations with with my kids and i get to talk talk about only one only one can talk because the other one's one but we look she looks in the mirror and i say her affirmations and one of them is i'm loved unconditionally which is great except unconditionally is a very tricky word for a toddler so for a long time she's looked in the mirror and gone i am loved conditionally and i'm like oh there's something for your therapist in years to come when we get the the on in there but i think you know like there is so much that we did we need to be very proactive because in in teaching the language to young little people because otherwise they will just you know we just do as we've always done and we just absorb what we've always absorbed and you know and it becomes our character and it becomes who we are and it's a shared thing it's a funny thing among women that we speak to this thing and we're like god we're absurd but we're all going to keep doing it you know like it is going to have to end at some point

27:06Ellie Gibson: hopefully yes um i wanted to talk about anger because sometimes some of your content you get a bit angry because i mean i think there's a lot of stuff to be angry about um and i think as well we're often right it's sort of baked in that we're not as women supposed to be angry or if we do get angry we're somehow out of control or we've lost it or we're not you know we're not behaving like we're supposed to and therefore no one has to take us seriously um so how i guess my question is how how much you sort of think about that and manage that and and how do you model that for your kids because i'm sure that like me you've never ever lost your temper in front of your children but it's that's my style isn't it trying to be nobody wants to be shouty mum and again look at my children they're nodding away that's right mum we've no idea what you're talking about no one wants to be shouty mum but i think surely we've all been shouty mum at some point and it's tricky isn't it to know well okay but if we're never shouty mum and if our kids grow up thinking women never get angry yeah then they might get a terrific shock when they meet me for example or someone else in the world yeah i mean how do you navigate all that i think what i've i mean god god knows again like i say i'm very new so um i don't want to sound like a twat but i what i try i'm i at the moment i spend a lot of time trying to explain and again i'm probably just talking to the wall because she's three but I try and explain or apologize or make sense of if I've lost my temper to say well I've lost my temper I you know like adults make mistakes mommy makes mistakes and then I'm sorry and I think sorry is a really important part of a dialogue and it's like I was crossed with you but my reaction wasn't cool and I'm sorry and this is why I'm tired I've got my period like whatever it is and I'm just trying to normalize those part you know a variable mother a fallible human being like i'm trying to be a bit messy not to you know you don't want to be a burden but you want to like somewhere between the two i want to acknowledge that that that mummy or adults can be messy women can be messy women are complicated and we don't need to be a a one dimensional but you know to my point earlier yes i'm doing this for my daughters but i'm i you know this is something i'm healing in me too because being comfortable with your own mess being comfortable with your own anger with your own emotions because we're so quick to go oh god I'm probably overreacting or I'm just I'm so sensitive sorry I'm probably just being sensitive maybe that's not a bad thing you know these feelings in and I'm sorry I don't I don't like doing the gendered thing but I think to unpack it is an interesting thing and this isn't an accusation on men it's not it's just a fact of it the same emotion demonstrated in different genders has a different name passion in a man is anger or hysteria in a woman and i just and i think you know like yes there are times i'm going to overreact there are times i'm going to be an absolute lunatic there are times that i'm just make no sense and can't explain it and shouldn't try to but when i care about something i don't want to have my passion weaponized or thrown at me or whatever else because i am entitled to my feelings and and i can be proud of them and proud are the parts of me that care enough to react and so it's i think keeping the language in mind always is super important to me but also i say that i also play a game you know i bite my tongue off to say shouldn't to because there's no point you lose everyone if you get too cross they won't

30:29Helen Thorn: hear you they won't listen yes exactly you're shrill so and i think i think you know on the on the other side of that i think humor is really important and having fun with your children and laughing at yourself. Oh, God, yeah. And I think, you know, I had tattooed on my arm, if you don't laugh, you'll cry. And that is my... Yes. That was my mum's favourite saying. And I've got it written in my mum's handwriting on my arm. Because I, you know, although, as Ellie would say, sometimes I laugh when I'm uncomfortable. I laugh when I'm happy. I laugh all the time. Yeah. I mean, it's a lifestyle. It is.

31:06Helen Thorn: but i i think um it's it's a really good diffuser and and and also sometimes you can get across a really serious point with humor through humor and i think that's what you're really good at in in in how you communicate especially around some serious issues you're not belittling it but you're also going look at what's happening in politics this is ridiculous we can we you know this is almost laughable yeah i think on two points on that i think the first one is and i genuinely will defend this till the hill this mic is fucking with me sorry i got it yeah yeah yeah i'm yeah i deserve the good one don't worry i don't rob you of what you earned um no the i think i will defend forever the fact that being silly is a feminist act i am so aware that if you ever talk about anything serious that's what people want from you like i thought i you're a like you what do you mean you're being silly like we can't we are not comfortable with multifaceted women and we will very we're very quick we do it we will do it it's not even just a gender thing we're very quick to kind of accuse someone of hypocrisy and we let their silly undermine their serious and we're not very good at letting two things be true at once and so i fight for the right to do that because i just think it's so important that you are messy and smart and you know i can't spell but i'm not stupid and i think there's a lot to be said for like accepting yourself as a multi-faceted dimensional human being um so yeah and i also think you'll go mad if you don't laugh you will cry if you don't i remember i had my face smashed in a few years ago i had my jaw broken it was awful i was talking about on the way here actually and it was like the worst thing that's ever happened to me i have never had more fun in my life i had my jaw wired shut for 10 weeks I photoshopped it was awful it was really bad I looked it was weird anyway I have never laughed so hard at everything because it was just like this is this is awful let's make it fun we photoshopped me into like the hills have eyes and like jaws everything and it was like it was I don't know humbling obviously but I do think in life you know bad things happen and like okay and bad things are happening in the world all the time you can't and to say to people who are engaged in the news or engaged in the bad things or having a hard time well you can't have fun or you aren't fun because you care what's a stupid thing to say and you just shrink women down it's like well so you care so shush shush no nothing else for you and you're fun so you can't be clever and it's just the it's that old school clever or pretty or you know smart or sexy or you know you can't yeah just muddle it all up a bit you can do it all yes exactly yeah i think

33:47Ellie Gibson: and you and I again we've been so we've been best friends and really more business partners I would say uh for the last we've got a shared bank account yes the last 13 years and in that time we've had lots of brilliant times um but also lots of really sad things and difficult things have happened to us um and you know when I had um that one there again in the stripes he was born nine weeks early I know look at the size of him now he's enormous um but he was born nine weeks early and you came to visit me didn't you yes in intensive baby intensive care which if anyone has ever been in you know it's not a happy place it's not a circus is it no um but you came and you made me laugh so hard i burst one of my cesarean stitches so even in the darkest times what a lovely gift won't tell you what the joke was it's very inappropriate uh but yeah it was good wasn't it yeah absolutely

34:39Helen Thorn: and it is the glue and i i i loved as a child watching my mum laugh wholeheartedly almost to the point of all her friends just wetting themselves spontaneously and i i love that and i love seeing mums you know really letting go and i think that's what we love about doing our shows they're big and they're silly and when women collectively laugh together there is a strength in that there's a year that we share that and often women who come to my shows going that's the first time i've i've felt seen or i've felt myself or like it has we all take it because we do take the responsibility seriously we want to be the provider and all that stuff and that's knackering and i think having a good laugh is really really important um i was going to talk a bit more about um being silly around your have a goes and and running as well because you when you talk about running and going into fitness and and again your relationship with your body not that it's not serious but you're really good at welcoming people in and making people feel included in that journey and your discover a love of running and things like that so so can you tell people about the have a goes and what the sort of yeah i mean the have a goes is the it's called we call it well we're the hags but it's um h8 like we're not hags have a goes um but we it was about diversifying fitness events a bit and trying to make them more fun because i just i always felt that it was so intimidating and my mom who's amazing did her first iron man which is like 2.4 mile swim 112 mile bike ride 26.2 mile run aged 50 I thought you meant she'd had it up with Robert Downey Jr I know it's insane and then she did 10 more over the next 10 years and did her last one aged 60 and I think I watched that she did her first one on my 18th birthday and I watched her just I mean just do something that people just don't really do that and she was always sort of women in STEM or whatever but like women in male dominated spaces it's a predominantly male sport and I watched her do this you know like take up this in crazy this crazy sport um and I just thought how amazing and she had so much fun and it brought so much to her and I mean she made me do so many stupid things with it and I was like oh for god's sake but it was really bonding and it was really fun and I think she brought me into exercise from such a good and such a random place that it really worked to heal all of the exercise to be thin exercise because you hate yourself exercise because you eight Maltesers you know like and that was my whole relationship was so negative you're only ever doing anything as like a punishment and it was like oh my god I don't have to hate myself like I could just do something else like I could just like not maybe and I just go for a run anyway and um it really changed my relationship and then we just we just ended up having so much fun and I do feel I think you know as well I've had two I had two kids in two years and that's a roller coaster and obviously completely humbling trying to get back running again after an emergency cesarean i was like nothing is okay in my body um and and you know like learning again and i think if you beat yourself up it is hard enough you've got a baby at home your boobs are massive and they're full of milk and everything hurts and you've been cut open and no one's told you what to do and i remember going to the doctor afterwards after a cesarean mind and i went can i go can i do exercise and he went yeah yeah i was like cool can i go for a run he was like oh no i was like can i do pilates he's like no I was like what can I weight lift he's like no no no I was like well what did you mean he's like oh I don't know you know whenever you feel like it I was like okay well that was that was horrible um I'll go home google it and um it was just so hard as it was anyway and I just thought oh I'm not gonna make this harder this is awful is it you know if I'm not on my side there's no one else out here with me there's no one else that's gonna come and make this better and people will be mean to you and things are gonna be difficult and and there's gonna be things that make you feel sad I don't want to be one of them there's enough of that about so I don't know I just wanted to start making it more fun it's like I'm going to go for a run three times a week I'd rather smile than cry so I'll just I'll smile I guess absolutely and I think that's the thing about you know I I don't I mean I don't like talking about running obviously

38:40Ellie Gibson: I'd love to hear more from you do you run I really would I've kept it very quiet uh

38:45Helen Thorn: we're taking another long jog aren't we yeah exactly but I think that the more we show women turning up because I think so many people say I'm not a runner or I'm going to wait until I've lost this much weight or I'm going to wait until you know I you know fit into a size 12 or something like that and I think they're all those sort of invisible barriers that we put on or very real barriers we put on ourselves and I think the running community especially and as very welcoming now and I think that's because more and more people go, no you can come, you can do the park run, you can do all those sort of things and it doesn't matter how fast you are, just turn up and enjoy it.

39:27Helen Thorn: Yeah, I think that is definitely what the sort of postpartum those early days, it did make me realise my body changed, lows, up light and whatever and it's like, time passes anyway. The world is going to keep spinning, if I look like this, if I look like that it's all happening anyway, so I'm going to go and work out where I'm going to fit into that you know it's not going to wait for you and it's not going to you know you're not going to get this time I don't like doing those massive existential things but you know the reality of it is it's like well if not now then when and you know I think being a mum as well is quite good for that because I'm like well I've got a schedule to stick to so if not now then like I guess I have time tomorrow at two you know like whereas before I used to push it down the road I'm like no if we're going to make this happen we need to make this happen but I think also to that if you don't like running don't run and I will die on that hill people say all the time like oh i'm running you know everyone can be a runner not if you don't want to no like and because it's all some people like love boxing or pole dancing or

40:20Ellie Gibson: whatever it is go do that yeah i had to stop running because of injury i used to run and i had to stop and i learned that other sports are available it was unbelievable yeah i know some of them aren't bad yeah it's insane it's yeah it's wild and i think that there was there's so much pressure and that came definitely you know this and again i don't know we're all like conspiratorial about it but these are massive industries that make a lot of money from making you feel like you need to do stuff and and so sort of I'm picking a lot of that whether do you need to lose weight or do they just want you to buy their stuff do you need to go running or do they just want you wearing that stuff you know like and I think working out sitting with yourself for a minute and being like no don't fancy it do you know whatever makes you feel a bit giddy go do that yeah and you'll know if you're on a run and you feel a little bit giddy then you're like okay there's something in it if you don't feel giddy go home try something else because i do have a bar yeah yeah yeah oh god yeah have a bar of chocolate i don't care but you know if you've got to do the thing that makes you and i do think that like it's really you know it's a bit sad but they say no one's coming to save you and it's like well yeah so i'm gonna do stuff that just makes me feel good and like you know it is running for me i totally get this not running for everyone

41:28Helen Thorn: else yeah yes i get messages saying i've been running for three months and i still hate it when will i start liking it i thought probably never yeah no no you don't have to do this now yeah yeah it's not a magic a magic pill exactly we don't have very long left but okay if you

41:44Ellie Gibson: listen to our podcast which is free by the way to download on spotify and apple and all the things or if you came to our show yesterday you'll know that we always like to end with scummy mummy confessions. Now again, some of you will know this because you were at the show yesterday, but just to give you a flavour, the winning confession yesterday was a lovely lady called Denise, Queen Denise, and her confession was she got so drunk at the school summer faked that she fell in a bush and the lollipop lady told her off. So that gives you a flavour of the sort of standard. So yes, we always ask our guests and we like to share one as well.

42:19Ellie Gibson: Helen, do you want to start?

42:21Helen Thorn: I have a scummy mummy confession. I'm going to confess my sins so a couple of weeks ago i i did a solo hiking trip i went by myself and it was like a group thing uh and um it was in the pyrenees and i i didn't know anyone i was the only i was the only mom i was the oldest lady but i put my brave brave girl pants on and i went along and then one of the nights we stayed in a thing called a refuge so we hiked up in the mountains and then we all had to share a top floor okay so there's about 20 of us all sleeping next to each other fucking not sorry excuse me absolute nightmare if you're a snorer and a farter which i am both

42:56Ellie Gibson: right so helen and i tour our comedy show all around the country and we do not share a room

43:02Helen Thorn: no no no not exactly right and and so i did not sleep because i was contorted right i was like i did not want to fart these were just normal nice people they didn't need to hear any of my noises right but I held on to I held on to the fart for so long I didn't know you could do that I know perhaps you could start doing that in the van my lovely boyfriend would attest to that this morning I farted so loudly on the way to the showers he had to walk off he was so embarrassed Helen Helen hold it in anyway so I tried to hold it in in the middle of the night and but I held it so tied that the fart eventually came out and it sounded like a kitten and it sounded like we went meow meow and I was so embarrassed and then the next day because I can't I was sure that everyone had woken up right and so over breakfast I made the situation worse I said did anyone hear my fart that sounded like a kitten and nobody had but then everyone knew so anyway so there you go that's

44:05Ellie Gibson: my sharing circle moment I enjoyed that I'm happy to hold space for that my story is similarly sophisticated and highbrow as all our comedy is. So just yesterday, I went to the loo, to the loos down there with one of my children. I won't say which one this time. I went to the loo and I said to him, wait for me outside the men's and I'll go in the ladies. And I was in there a little while and I came out and he said, mummy, where have you been? You were ages. And I said, oh, I was doing a number two. And he went, mum, you did a poo in a public toilet. So that everybody, I think, even on the main stage could hear it it was it was and I had to go brilliant yes and there's nothing wrong with that is there we're all humans we all do it and now you also know that one of my children hasn't done a number two for the last three days so there we go should probably give him a vegetable later on today okay now Em now we've set the tone really a lovely tone we've really raised the bar would you like to share your confession yeah no to be honest I've I've yeah I don't know I'm not totally proud of it.

45:14Yesterday, I took my baby, well, I put both of them on the merry-go-round around the corner, and the little one, the baby, I mean, bless her, holding on for dear life. Quite right. No idea what she's doing. I sometimes think about the stuff we make our kids do. She must be like, what on earth is happening? Why? This crazy-coloured horse is just flying around. Everyone's laughing. Anyway, so she's clinging onto this thing, and then we get off, and my brother gives her this donut. She's one, guys. Anyway, it's a mad donut, like glazed thing, and then she showed me her hand, and it was just donut, not and i was like okay i put it in my mouth i was like i don't know i ain't got a wipe so i just put it in my mouth and i just ate the whole like i just licked it i just licked it clean and then as i was doing it in the my background i was like merry-go-round hands nothing's been cleaned so i if anyone needs me for the rest of the week i'll be in the john radcliffe undergoing some sort of analysis like what happens when a human being eats 30 000 germs in one day so yeah that's pretty

46:07Ellie Gibson: gross excellent see she's one of us em clanson is a scummy mummy everybody yes oh there we go

46:16Helen Thorn: now you're doing a thing now aren't you yes i i have i have a book called how to face big change and come back stronger i'm doing a book signing after this uh this is a book about i i interviewed 50 women who've all faced big hard things and how they've survived it and come back stronger and it's also about my journey from going from a broken mess to a to what I got better anyway so there's a work in progress but there's lots of amazing women in there and anyway it's available if you want to give money and then I'll give you the book that's how that works

46:50Ellie Gibson: in case you didn't understand capitalism that is what we'll be doing today it's a lovely thing to do but yes come and say hello

46:58Helen Thorn: anyway yes

46:59Ellie Gibson: so brilliant thank you so much for coming on the podcast and being a brilliant guest thank you everyone Thank you everyone Thank you

47:16Thanks so much One more time for the Scummy Mummies Yay Lovely stuff