561: From Selling Fish and Chips to a $50k/Mo. Online Business

0:02From selling fish and chips to a$50 ,000 a month online business. What's up? What's up? Nick Loper here. Welcome to the Side Hustle Show. It's the business podcast you can actually apply. Now in his book, Start From Zero, Dane Maxwell shares this simple framework to use as an engine for coming up with business ideas and to make your first sales. He calls it CPSO, which stands for Customer, Pain, Solution, and Offer. I want you to stick around in this episode to learn how my guest found a common pain and started selling the solution from zero to 50 grand a month in revenue from linkify.io, Chris Pantelli.

0:40Welcome to the Side Hustle Show. Thank you, Nick. Thank you so much for having me. Been a fan for a long time, so this is awesome. Oh my gosh. Well, thank you for tuning in and thank you for being part of the show. Now, if you're tuning in, I think you're gonna be able to follow some of the same tactics that Chris used to start and grow a side hustle of your own to help get you started, to help get those creative juices flowing. Your free listener-only bonus for this week is my big list of 101 service business ideas. You can download that for free in the show notes for this episode. Just follow the show notes link in the episode description.

1:11Again, that's the 101 service business ideas. So Chris, the business is Linkify and we're going to go through that CPSO, customer pain solution offer. Customer, bloggers, online business owners, pain, building backlinks. It sucks. The solution, hey, help a reporter. Haro, it's been around for a decade plus. These are high authority links. It's just, you know, going back to that pain. it's a pain to sort through three emails a day and make those pitches and make them compelling. So the offer is, hey, don't do it yourself. We'll do it for you for a fixed price. Take me back. So this is a couple years old at this point.

1:47You're selling fish and chips. And fast forward a couple years later, you're on this productized agency model. It's been insane. Straight after university, I decided to take over the family business of fish and chips and I did that for 13 years and then I was drawn to sort of these blog income reports that you see all over the internet so I started dabbling with a personal finance website which I thought was like in line with my formal education started getting some traction with that website started like ranking some keywords getting some traffic came across Harrow so started doing Harrow for myself pitching as myself and started to I think I got my first ever Harrow link and got addicted and then got another one and then another one.

2:31So I was in like New York Times, New York Post, Forbes, money.com, you know, some of the biggest websites. Okay. Yeah. You were onto something that worked. Yeah. Yeah. And then as the site was growing a bit more, the fish and chip shop was quite busy. I mean, I was doing sort of 12, 13 hour days and yeah, I thought to maybe just outsource a little bit of life upswing, uh, some of the, the guest post link building that I wanted to do um so i found a chap called nick uh we got talking um sort of developed a friendship and um and then he was asking me he looked at my site's backlink profile and he said yo you know how did you get all these like awesome links from new york times and i told him about harrow and he said i've got some of my clients that would be interested maybe in if you could do harrow for them and i was a bit skeptical because i thought how can i do it on behalf of someone else but i thought if we get some sort of basic information from them and they give us maybe just a bit of creative leeway to answer on their behalf, then we could give it a go.

3:32And we did, and it was successful. And then we took a few more of his clients. And then we're noticing that that's what most people wanted. And we started Linkify, I think, last January. And now here we are today. Wow. I mean, the marketing has been incredible because I've seen it pop up on my... It's come across my desk probably half a dozen times over the last year. So you've been hitting it hard in that sense. And it's, this is actually really an interesting point, like to start it almost as a white label service under the umbrella or under the wing of this agency that already existed. Like, hey, we're already targeting an online business owner clientele.

4:12They need help with links, but we don't have the expertise to go out and get these PR links or these help of reporter links. you do would you mind doing that for us and and it worked now uh we're 50 50 partners he was a one-man agency anyway and i was i was doing the shop but i just got diagnosed uh type 1 diabetes at the age of 33 and then we just sort of uh went into the pandemic just after that they were really lucky to stay open in the uk but staying open was almost a curse anyway because everyone was being told not to not to go out but we weren't given any support or told to shut so we were opening our doors to empty streets and I remember then thinking yeah I need to I need to really sort of diversify my risk out of this industry um and and go strong on on my finance website and then look to see if there's more that we could do with this sort of side hustle that I was doing with Nick and me and Nick made a decision to um to start trying to take as many clients as we could And I would just sort of do, you know, 15, 16, 17 hour days instead of 13 hour days.

5:19My eyes sort of closing at the screen at midnight whilst I'm trying to do these harrow pictures. Yeah. And then then we sort of I think we just did a big outreach to John Dykstra, who's been a guest of yours on the show. I know. OK. And we offered him what we did for free. We said, look, let's show let us show you what we can do. He's a really nice guy. Super, super cool guy. And he said, go on then, Chris, you know, let me see what you can do. we built him some yeah you're gonna build the high authority backlinks for free sure how about yeah but i would definitely say that's a tactic that works if you've got something which you know is good and people want um if they've got an audience and they're receptive just do it then for free you know they might not say anything after but luckily john actually came back to us and said okay uh can you build some links for a few of my sites which was like enough for me to really then say to nick let's do this full time and then we knew we'd have a promotion coming off him and And it's, yes, it's gone from there.

6:13So you kind of gave him the free sample and then it sounds like he became a paying customer. Yeah. And then became an evangelist, like started spreading the word to his audience. Yeah. Yeah. That's been super helpful. That's been our sort of main bread and butter with the growth, I would say, is reaching out to influencers, offering them our services either for free or for a big discount and then getting in front of their audiences. Because there's definitely a need for this. But as we grow and we learn sort of what sorts of people, what sorts of industries, what sorts of sites want these links without having to do it themselves, then that's really exciting as well to see that the need for this is much broader than just sort of niche website owners or small publishers.

6:55Yeah. Was there any level of competitive analysis into the world of PR link building companies if there were such a thing? Like, oh, everybody else is, there's too many people doing this. It sounds like you kind of grew a little bit more organically than idea marketing customer. It was like, well, we already kind of had some customers through this agency thing. But I was curious if you did any of this competitive analysis to try and see who else is out there and how big might this market potentially be? I knew there was another one or two agencies offering it exclusively. And then I'd say a handful more agencies that were offering it alongside their other basket of link building products.

7:37One of the biggest link agencies, I think, offers it as well. It was more of like a hidden service on the website. So I definitely knew people were selling it. I'd never been a customer of this service before. I know there's some sort of individual freelancers that also offer it. But, yeah, it was much more of an organic growth. So another blogger that I knew was a lady called Carly Campbell. She owns quite a big Facebook group and the website, Mommy On Purpose. yeah so i reached out to her with the same sort of thing and she was really kind to actually ask me on to do like a webinar to her audience her like private members audience that was quite quite in the early days actually i would say and we did that and um we actually got like a bunch of paying customers off the back of that so i thought having a face to the service as well was something that not really anybody else was doing that i could see visibly so i thought you know it's they're not cheap, the packages.

8:34You want to know your money's safe. So I thought a combination of getting my face out there, talking to people about it, and then aligning myself with other people that knew what they were talking about that had used our services, be it for free or for a discount. I thought that could all be a marriage made in heaven for growth. Yeah. How'd you figure out how much to charge for this stuff? Because it can't be really time consuming to sift through all the queries and write dedicated responses to each of those? We used the existing services that were offering it. We just gave ourselves enough margin to offer, you know, Black Friday sales, maybe.

9:09We've been able to keep the costs relatively low. We have writers now, we have an editing process, you know, we have a team leader. So it's a bigger team, but we're really, really proud of the end result so we're not offering just links that we bought like we don't buy any links it's all manual outreach so when we tell a client we've just got them a link on you know zednet dr 90 20 million traffic or whatever it is we're so proud of that we think it's worth what what we charge yeah i mean you literally could not go out and buy it it makes sense you know and the reason i ask is it's on the surface like sticker price not cheap.

9:5210 links for$6 ,500,$650 a piece. And those, I guess, for a newer site would make a meaningful difference SEO-wise, especially for a newer site that all of a sudden you have all this high authority backlink juice pointing to you. Five links,$3 ,750, of course, prices subject to change. So not necessarily targeting that brand new online business owner, somebody who really recognizes the value in this. And one thing that I thought was interesting was, you know, instead of being pitched as a PR service, you know, just kind of shifting that a little bit to pitch it as a link building service. And that was, to me, that was unique.

10:30Instead of, I'm not competing with all these other, you know, PR companies are going to, you know, go out and pitch your story to the press. And like, maybe I don't want to do live TV or radio calls, but, you know, I would be interested in this specific thing. I don't know. I thought that was unique. Talk to me a little bit more about the webinar with Carly. So this was you coming on doing kind of the DIY version. Like, hey, if you want to get horror links, here's how you're going to do it yourself. But it's kind of a pain. Like if you want us to do it for you, was that kind of the structure of that pitch?

11:01It was a complete sort of how to do it and what we do. But it does also lend itself the whole process to either thinking, yeah I'm going to put some time into that and try and do it or by the end of it you do think oh I can't be bothered to do that so I didn't go on to upsell the packages and I think it was quite a last minute thing for Carly to have included the like affiliate link into that after as well and then yeah we actually did get some some sales so like you were just saying before I think it's interesting it's probably not something for brand new people into the online space for their first business.

11:38But having said that, if you've got the budget and you don't want to take any risk whatsoever with your site, we know that links are still as important, if not more important than ever, especially with the onset of AI mass content. It's like one of the few ways to differentiate your site from other sites. And the bigger sites, they've got these links anyway, so you sort of need to get them if you want to stay at a level playing field with your competition. And yeah, it's a great press badge for the homepage. And it's just a great way to build your authority, your EAT, your eyes in Google, and to make your web property a sustainable asset for the future.

12:20Yeah, I was a customer of a similar service for a few months, maybe it was a year or two ago. And then they just shut down because they're like, well, this is a pain. We're not going to do this anymore. I was like, oh, come on. I was happy to get now. I got to go back and figure out another process to do this myself because I do recognize the value in it. But yeah, it's kind of a pain. So the question is, I guess, well, first, let me ask about the decision to price it as a one-off package versus a monthly recurring service like this other company had sold it as. That's interesting because we did start as a monthly package.

12:55So we started off, I think what we did was we priced it at two links per month for a minimum of a four month uh contract the problem is harrow is so unpredictable it takes a lot of time and a lot of resources and we could have a client in the first month that's in a you know a particularly timely niche um for for the time of year that they that they buy let's Let's say we take a gardening site during the summer and we could have built all, you know, eight links in five weeks, let's say. So then we were having to pray that they'd pay for like the remaining months because we'd already got them their eight links in the first after they hadn't even made their second.

13:46Okay. okay and then we would have clients that maybe we didn't even get one link in the first month and they're getting ready to have to pay their second month bill and they've got nothing in their dashboard so they might be like this doesn't this doesn't work this guy's a scam yeah yeah exactly so it was actually me that pushed against that nick was more on the line that you know this is it's nice to spread it out and to have it as monthly recurring also many happy clients are going to go past the fourth month into the fifth and sixth month i mean we've had clients with us now for a big chunk of the of our first year so which has been amazing but i liked the idea of just saying you pay us this money this is what we'll deliver this is that kind of the guide time of how long it'll take but if it takes longer it takes longer but you will get what we're offering have you ever had the case where the niche was just too obscure or you couldn't deliver or it's you know it's it's still open-ended like hey we're still working on those 10 links for you Mr.

14:41and Mrs. Blogger? Not yet. I mean, we've got open orders now, but we've yet to not complete an order. There is always a journalist looking for some expertise and it doesn't matter how obscure the person's website is. We have such a good vetting system now. All of the queries are assigned to clients prior to our writers writing the pitches. And yeah, it can take time. It can take four, five, six weeks to get that first one. And then when we're sending so many pitches as well, that often, you know, it could be four, five, six weeks, the first one comes in and then the next day, the next one comes in, you know, for the same client and then two more come in.

15:21And then a year later you get one on the BBC, let's say that's happened. And you know, they're not even a paying client anymore. And you think, Oh God, it's the best link ever. And they're not even a customer anymore. Well, yeah. And still put it down in that Rolodex of like, Hey, you know, we scored links from these from these places.

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17:43Sign up for your$1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com slash side hustle go to shopify.com slash side hustle shopify.com slash side hustle on like are you comfortable sharing a sense of the at any given moment how many different clients are you having to keep track of uh yeah so i'd say we average between 25 ish clients jumps up to maybe like 30 after a big promotion and it goes down that's when everyone starts going we need to do another promotion or we need to make you know check that our lead gen and we we've just started with a an email marketing company we're doing some like linkedin lead gen we have other you know influencers that we're working with as well so we've always got stuff in the pipeline but they're really interesting things so nick has a lot more experience in the in the agency like world than me so he's done eight years of client seo and link building but for me is a very different world to selling fish and chips behind a hot steamy counter but it's um it's interesting how we've had to scale we've had to scale to meet demand and then as we've built out the team to handle the demand it's like right now do we push to to be able to handle like double the demand but we haven't got that yet or do we wait to see if the demand doubles and then quickly scale again.

19:13So it's the chicken and the egg and learning as we go. Yeah, this is the common issue with any agency. We're trying to balance that ability to provide the service with how many people need the service and be mindful of the margins in between there. And so you have it structured so that your client comes on, they're assigned a dedicated writer or pitcher who is kind of on the lookout for queries that match their niche or expertise? We have one person who scours all queries and assigns them to the client. The client is tagged to a writer. That's like so much to keep in your brain. Like we've got 25 different things.

19:54Like, oh, this is going to be a match for, you know, a customer B. This could be a match for a client, you know, 17. Like, oh my God. Well, I did all of that on my own initially. So now I have a team lead managing that and he's doing a really good job Roland if he's listening but I think there will be a critical mass for the number of clients that one person can do that job for and then the idea would be just to just to split everything into two then so you'd have one team lead managing a basket of clients and organizing the pitches for them and then another team lead managing those clients and a basket of pitches for them and then yeah hopefully sort of like spread it out like that but we can't we don't want to do that yet until we know we've got the those clients yeah do you go line by line like three times a day it's this fire drill when the emails come out from from help a reporter and you're like okay like you know question number one like okay do we have anybody that's a fit no okay question number two yes and then if you have you know what happens if you have multiple clients in the same niche are you sending you know two pitches you know supposedly from two different you know with two different signatures on the bottom of that and i kind of like tweaked a little bit differently it's not as difficult as hard as you think because we've been doing this for a long time now so we actually built our own database which started obviously with me and then that now like organically gets updated um so we know all of the junk domains on harrow we know the domains that are good but they never ever link as part of their editorial policy or whatnot we know the the journalists without wasting our time about this yeah exactly uh honestly a big chunk of the list can just be instantly crossed off so our our the organizer uh the pitch assigner um he has like tags which instantly highlights the domains or queries associated to those domains to be removed so that that does actually take down any single harrow email you know down by maybe 50 i mean there's a lot of stuff in there that we don't pitch that we know not to do you ever roll the dice where it says like anonymous do you ever roll the dice and say okay yeah we just did one um very recently and it was an unbelievably good link i'm trying to think what website it was all right yeah i never know if i should uh take the time to respond to this our uh company line on that is if the query is perfectly aligned to a client give it a go but one little one little trick you can do with those is sometimes the anonymous ones the domain is anonymous but they'll put the the person's name they'll pop the the journalist's name there google search the the person's name tag writer on the end or journalist often you'll get like a muck rack or um like a pr okay yeah who they what publications they write for yeah yeah yeah and then if you see like five publications that you've heard of, go for it, because this is probably going to be a good site.

22:46Okay. Do you have the clients, because this is something that I had to do when I was a customer of this PR service, was I kind of had to write out this, you know, 10, 15 page document answers to common questions that they could just kind of paste in. Do you have something similar, like demanding that kind of upfront work from the client? Are you pulling that from existing blog content to answer these questions? Because you don't have expertise in 25 different niches. It's got to be hard to kind of come up with a compelling pitch. Yeah, it's interesting with Harrod, we've got to be really quick.

23:20We've got to have their permission to creatively write the answers, have the pitchers be able to, you know, obviously the individual writers will be assigned to the clients that their expertise lie best in. But then outside of that, it's research. And it's putting together a pitch on behalf of the client that is going to be acceptable to the client to have those words printed on their behalf. Whereas with the more PR style clients, they're either not a great fit for what we offer currently because they need a bit more tighter control. So that is something we'll be able to do when we're offering the PR packages, or we do have a more in-depth onboard informer which they can fill out, but we still need the ability to not have them pre-approved pitches that get sent out.

24:03Otherwise, we'd never win a link. but with the yeah you just it would take too much time yeah yeah but luckily our sort of target demographic currently they care about link juice they want to see the links and harrow is still very much a platform where the journalists and the writers from the huge publications are more so looking to leverage the expertise of the person they're quoting like the person writing the article knows whether or not it's a good idea to put a lot of money on a credit card like they're not really asking for the answer to that question. What they're looking to do is quote an expert who can back up the sentiment that maybe it's not a great idea to put a load of expenses on a credit card.

24:45So often the questions aren't, you know, they don't need a great deal of research. What they do need to be done is well-written. I could go in, I could talk about the whole day about good ways to put a picture together. But yeah, if it's well-written, if you've not used ai or or not blatantly used ai to put this pitch together um if you've uh if you've got expertise and if you've been able to tell the journalist quickly and and clearly i didn't even think about that yeah oh i'll just have chat dpt right my answer is he's clear they they know that now uh i mean it's obvious when it's yeah but if you've got 17 that are all the same yeah exactly yeah and as well oh another thing which we've done which has been amazing was um i got i managed to talk to one of the journalists that featured me in the New York Times.

25:36So she's a New York Times journalist. And then I remember I was speaking to her on Twitter, I think it was. And I said, hey, I'm putting together this like masterclass, this course on the website. We're going to teach people about how to use Harrow and how to get good pitches. Would you come on and do like an interview with me? And she was up for it. So, and then another journalist, another big journalist who writes for New York Herald or another few big publications also agreed. So inside that course, we have like a 20 minute interview with these two journalists and they give a behind the scenes look at what Harrow looks like on the other side.

26:12So what they're seeing when the responses went. And that was super interesting. Do you mind sharing two or three best practices that you've seen for submitting these pitches? Yeah. Well, the one which I thought was obvious was, you know, if you're not an expert don't pitch so they've got people asking about maybe health lines doing something on i know end of life care and they get pitches from plumbers saying i'd like to like make sure make sure before you die make sure your toilet's okay so about that that seems like an obvious one but you know people try that they said don't ask for a backlink journalists this is another thing that seos publishers of uh of hijacked harrow that isn't what it was really created for and that's not why journalists are using it they're using it to source experts to make their articles better more informed so if you go in clearly asking for a backlink then it's gonna you know it's gonna annoy them name your your company maybe have your url at the bottom and then wait and see and there's a number of tactics i can tell you which which work 25 30 percent of the time to get a backlink even if you don't get one if you want me to share that i can um yeah what's what's like the polite subtle way to say and if you wouldn't mind linking to i mean most of the time it's going to be home page links if it is a link at all but like is there a way to drive links to internal pages or you know i'm curious to get your take on this yeah no no no no, no.

27:44Don't even bother asking for an internal page link and don't. Can you link to my affiliate product review? Yeah. No, that's, that won't happen. It's got worse. I would say Harrow, in the three years I've been doing it, the publishers have got more stingy with giving the links. And oftentimes now it's part of the main editorial policy of the website itself to no follow the link. We still, we guarantee at least 50 % do follow links in our service. So if we, if we've already built half your order as no follow, we'll make sure the other half is do follow and we'll keep going and we'll keep going until we get the other half as do follow.

28:21But certain websites just do not give a do follow link. But it's interesting. This is another thing that I think is a good reason or one of the areas of value that we offer. We have a really robust system for tracking unlinked mentions. So we track everything every day. So we'll track all the client's names the client's websites with like search parameters and free tracking google alerts talk walker blah blah blah blah and then as soon as we see the uh website has published a quote we'll go in have they linked ah no they haven't linked so that's when it starts then so then it's like okay what's the domain okay this domain it never links we've tried 25 times we're not going to try again oh well the client the client's got some a free unlinked mention it's on the house put it on your home page enjoy the fact that you got featured in this great website but they're really stingy and they never link.

29:10And then eventually maybe we stop pitching that website. But it's also nice to give the client an awesome unlinked mention in a website. So we'll leave it at that. But I think that's part of just a natural kind of online presence. Like every time I talk about selling something on eBay, I don't link to eBay. Every time I mention it, it's like, I think it's natural. It would look weird if every single mention of your company was linked. I don't know. Maybe that's like my tinfoil SEO conspiracy theory hat. no i think that's a good point i think you need to have a natural looking backlink profile which is a healthy mix of do follow and no follow and then yeah if you've also got unlinked mentions in there i mean the place that an unlinked mention is going to be seen by google's algorithm if at all is going to be on the biggest websites in the world so if you've you know if you've got um side hustle nation unlinked but on the i don't know uh new york times google yeah which which just happened yeah exactly yeah so it's going to add credence and credibility to your site and your brand name definitely if we see that the the domain is one that we're familiar with that for whatever reason sometimes forgets the link there's one really good website it's a dr90 10 million a month traffic they always don't link and then if you just email them and say can you add the link the next day they go yeah it's fine i've added the link there's like i don't know why they don't just link but they always add the link there's some websites that always no follow but they will turn it into a do follow if you email there's one website which is in the uk is a massive uh website the the the sun.co.uk and i think the sister website in the us is the the sun or the ussun.com now if you get an unlinked mention on the us sun they don't reply to emails but if you go via the UK Suns editorial corrections department and say to them I've been trying to get in touch with somebody over at the sister company but no one's replying I was recently quoted in this article but they didn't give me a link is there any way you'd be able to just you know link back to my website then they will so knowing all of these sort of tips and tricks is a way that yeah that's that's a great one yeah is a way to is deliver more links on better websites um yeah So I'd like to think that's something that we've got good at and we're getting better at as well.

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32:40Indeed.com slash side hustle show. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring. Indeed is all you need. This may be a little bit deep in the SEO weeds, but at what point is there diminishing returns? Like if I've already got 200, 300, 500 relatively high authority backlinks to my site. Am I going to notice a difference for adding 10 more, 20 more? It's got to be diminishing returns at some point. I would think so. Yeah. I think it really depends on your business, how much you're reliant on SEO. If you're on a cusp of entering into the next level of Google organic traffic, maybe your competitors are just a few notches above you in terms of their authority.

33:23It could just be the one small extra thing you need. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Or, you know, if you're in a super competitive niche, I mean, we don't deal with casino and CBD, but maybe a VPN or, you know, something along those lines where - Yeah. Insurance or something. Yeah. Which we can do. We can do link, we can build Harrow links for, you know, insurance, banking, any of these sorts of websites. If you're in that industry, then your competitors have got a link budget. They're going to be buying links, you know, all day, every day, every month they've got the money for it and they're always doing it so if you're you've got to do it as well then you may as well set aside a small portion of your budget to good link good homepage links it's never gonna hurt that that's the thing like they're never gonna devalue a dr 70 website with millions of organic traffic a real press link google's never gonna devalue these sites which means those links are always going to be a healthy part of your profile.