668: How I Built an $80k/year Side Hustle in an Obscure Niche

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1:17And today is breaking down the steps he took to get there. This is the side hustle show where we've been helping people make extra money since 2013. If that's what you want to do, you're in the right place. Today, you learn how to build an audience from scratch and build enough trust to get strangers on the internet to pay you. From KinzerCoins.com and the Ancient Coin Hour on YouTube, Dean Kinzer, welcome to the Side Hustle Show. Thank you so much, Nick, for having me on. Huge fan of the show and hope to contribute and hope to teach somebody something today. Well, I love me a hobby-based business or turning a hobby into an income stream.

1:51and this is a really unique one around ancient coin collecting, like biblical era, Roman Republic type of stuff, where it's like, I guess it makes sense. It's metal. It doesn't necessarily go away. These things still exist and you can trade them and you could sell them. And so where does this thing start or how'd you get into it? Well, okay. So the reason I named it Kinzer Coins is my dad was a coin collector and a collector of many things. He also was a coin dealer and a baseball card dealer on the side. So we used to, as kids, go to shows routinely with him. As I grew up, he started, me and him kind of, I grew up and moved on and stuff.

2:27But when his health started failing, I had to work through his estate and I started working through his estate. And I got to these coins like a tribute penny of Tiberius with Livy on the reverse. And it just really didn't make sense to me that I would just be selling this. This is 2000 years old. It's not like a wheat penny. This means something. So instantly, I'm like, how do you find out more about this? I knew a little bit, but not from when I was a kid. I was interested in Americans. So I ended up joining a Facebook group, one of the best medieval and ancient coins. It has about 10 ,000 members.

3:04And so I started connecting. And really, the journey began as soon as I started connecting to people on Facebook. And so I began to learn about the coins. Ancient coins are a very interesting subject because Americans largely don't know about them. Europeans are active because it's Europe. That's where they come from. But Americans, it seems like once they cross the pond, it's stopped being a part of their kind of lexicon or their understanding. And so my whole goal is to take these ancient coins and make them relevant to Americans. And that's the idea behind the side hustle. So full-time I do operational work and part-time I try to educate and sell ancient coins that are readily available and probably one of the most interesting hobbies that I've ever been a part of.

3:53Yeah, so you're making money in a few different ways. You have coins for sale through the site. So I imagine you're making a margin on those and whatever you've been able to source. We can talk about that. The YouTube channel has grown quite a following, 40 ,000 plus subscribers on YouTube. So I imagine you're making money from that. Real quick, do you mind sharing the additional revenue streams or how this business works? I play in retail, so I sell coins. The reason that I have a podcast is because what I noticed, and a lot of your listeners might notice, is that when you have hobbies of this nature, the information that's out there, particularly in digital form, is slow or none.

4:30So when I went to YouTube to look about ancient coins or went to just anywhere, there wasn't a lot of information and it wasn't in a way that I could understand it. And so I created the podcast for beginning collectors so that they can understand A, what ancient coins are about, B, who to buy them from and who to trust and C, not to get tricked because a lot of people get tricked by ancient coins. There isn't a quick and dirty way to find out if something's real or not, but over time and with some learning, we can definitely teach you. Yeah. So I do that. And And then I do auction representation, which is another way of people getting involved in auctions that don't necessarily want to lift the paddle or don't feel strong enough about their interest that they know what a good deal is.

5:16And so they'll come to me and ask me to auction for them or to buy something at auction for them. So those are really kind of the three services that I offer. Okay, so auction representation, meaning you will go out and try and source coins for other collectors? A lot of times collectors will have an idea of something, but they don't know how it is in actual person, like what that coin is. Like I want an Alexander the Great of this. So I'll do the research. I'll hunt it down. I'll give them options. And then I will represent them at the auction, either in person or online to help them get that at the best possible price.

5:48So, yeah, that's that. That's absolutely what I do. Yes. And you just charge a flat fee for that. You take a percentage of. Just a percentage. Yep. Small percentage. OK. Yeah. Yeah, 5 % or something small, whatever it is. How much do these things cost? Like what? I'm trying to think of like, well, 5 % of 50 bucks or 5 % of 5 ,000. Okay, so ancient coins are interesting because they come in all shapes and sizes. One of the great things about ancient coins is they can be very affordable, if you're interested. Coins from the era of Constantine the Great, what they call late Roman bronzes, about 300, 400 AD, around the time of the legalization of Christianity through Constantine and all that kind of stuff, They made most of their coinage through bronze.

6:28And because they made hundreds of thousands or millions of each one of these types, so there's an abundance of bronze coins. So you can buy a coin of Constantine the Great for$20, and it'll be in good condition, and you'll be very happy with your purchase. Or you can buy a coin that Brutus celebrated his killing of Julius Caesar in 42 BC that retailed for about 2.5 million pounds or$4 million. So that's really the stretch. You can get really cheap or you can get really expensive. You can buy the coinage of Alexander the Great cheaper than you can buy a lot of American coins. it's just a really interesting kind of imbalance almost in terms of historical value but there i love them so much i can't stop talking about them yeah it's super interesting and it sounds like approaching it from the perspective i know a little bit about this my dad was involved but i'm not the world's leading expert on this stuff so it's kind of this learning alongside the audience in a lot of ways that's right so you going back to this medieval coins facebook group what what's going on in there like were you trying to build up a reputation i'm trying to think of the the person who might be in a similar boat who's entering a different niche but they're kind of like i know a little bit about it but i'm not you know confident enough to stand up on the podium and say hey everybody listen to me yeah well the great thing okay so this facebook group at and i'm sure there's all kinds of these for different hobbies yeah the face group group that i found is like this eclectic group of lawyers doctors scholars you name it gas station attendance, whatever it is.

8:05And it's this huge group of people that have expertise in all of these different areas. So you can reach out. And I got to tell you, ancient coins, they covered about half of the world over 2000 years. So there's a lot of different types. There's a lot of different meanings. And so fortunately, you have a place where you can find those types of people that know about it because everybody kind of has their own specific niche. And so even within the ancient coins there's people that only collect roman provincial coins only collect greek only collect a certain emperor only collect all the emperors okay so there's a bunch of different ways to do it like the state quarters except for for uh emperors one thing that's interesting is there's already a little bit of an ecosystem built around this in the fact that you found a facebook group that had 10 000 members versus coming in completely cold and trying to shout into the void of the internet.

8:59Hey, I think this stuff is cool. Anybody want to follow me? Anybody want to pay attention? Does the podcast YouTube channel happen in parallel to this initial Facebook group stuff? What's going on there? So I went to the Facebook group for a couple months, and once I found out that there was no point of reference for me learning other than just the historical aspects of it, that's when I decided if there's a void, I'm going to try to fill it. So actually, I partnered with somebody who's been in numismatics much longer than me, Josh Benevento, who's my guest host, also a Grammy-winning opera singer.

9:31So talk about unique. But the combination between us, he's more of a technical expert and I'm more of a talking head, but between the two of us, we're able to get a lot of information out. And the other thing that we do on the podcast is we bring in authors, we bring in people that own auction companies, people that own dealerships, so that they can explain their perspective and the ways to deal with them in a way that's helpful to a new buyer. Somebody who's new in the industry, we're trying to connect you to the people that maybe you wouldn't find for a couple of years and get their perspective and some of the things that they think are beneficial for you to learn.

10:09So in a lot of cases, we've done some legwork for you, and that's the point, is to teach you about this thing so you can get involved. Describe the first few months of the podcast. Is it crickets? Is it an instant hit? Is there a moment where you're like, hey, there's clearly an audience for this? We've really tapped into a nerve here. Well, the first thing I noticed was that nobody would watch, even the people that I know in the business. So it took a little bit of time, and you really have to figure out what purpose are you trying to serve? If you're trying to talk to an existing community of collectors, that's going to be a totally different discussion point.

10:47So there's another guy in the business who does a podcast that talks mostly about auctions, and that's what he cares about, and that's what he's involved in. So those people will learn about auctions there. But to me, it's hard to continue down that path when you don't know enough about the business. So that's why we focus on training or we're teaching people. Are you primarily targeting people who somehow came across this hobby, but are just like seeking education or like you're trying to like sell people on, hey, you should have ancient coins is part of your investment portfolio. That's right.

11:17That's right. Who's the audience? You said, well, you got to figure out what purpose do you serve? Yeah. So I'll flip that around and say, what purpose does the podcast serve for you? So in terms of people that love history, there is an abundance of that, right? I mean, there are channels on YouTube that have millions of subscribers and a huge following. You know, one of the things that you can do with ancient coins is you can hold the history in your hand, right? Ancient coins don't need to necessarily be in a slab. You can hold them. So to me, the natural connection is all of these history lovers who collect something that's not related to it, Pokemon, Funko Pops, whatever that is, and try to translate it to connect their history love to something that they can physically and tangibly hold.

12:02And that's the point. Got it. So there's already point collectors in the world. There's already history lovers in the world. Like, how can I get at the center of that Venn diagram and help them learn about? Right. There's tons of dealers that already kind of deal to collectors. I want to deal to the new collectors. I want to find new collectors. So you're doing the show. You're starting to engage in this group. At what point does the business make its first dollar? Do you have that first sale story? Yeah. So it was surprising. So really what, like most collectors, your collection turns into your inventory to sell.

12:38And that's really kind of the thing. And so I actually opened up a store and probably two weeks after I sold Mithridides VI Tetradrachm. Mithridides VI is famous because he's the poison king. There's a book written about him. He ingested poison every day for his whole life. And then when he was tracked down by the Roman army, he tried to kill himself with poison and he had built up such a tolerance that he couldn't. Sounds like straight out of The Princess Bride. It's such a great story. He fought three wars against the Romans, died with an Amazon woman next to him. Just a really neat, really neat story.

13:14But I sold his coin and it was when they're really nice, they're really nice. $12 ,000. And it totally caught me. I had no intention of selling it. Somebody, I put a price on it and somebody bought it right away. I shipped it off to him and I'd never heard a thing from him since. okay it was this one of your dads like how did you come into possession of it oh i bought it independently on my own i i found a really good deal uh that's another great thing about the facebook marketplaces there's a discord there's a lot of different places where you can acquire these coins from different collectors and sometimes that gives you an advantage having that inside scoop rather than paying retail like everybody helps you get a little bit of margin if you're interested in selling which is a helpful use yeah could you tell if it was somebody who was a follower of yours from the YouTube channel?

13:59I mean, it's only three days into putting up the store. I don't know where they came from, but it was probably about the happiest day I've ever had because it was so surprising. I assume it came from YouTube, one of the few followers at that time. They were from California, so they would have no tie to me directly. But it was so neat. I was like, boy, I can do this. I can do it. I just got to find them. More with Dean in just a moment, including the low-risk way he's sourcing inventory and how he puts himself in position to make lots of sales right after this. One of the tools I've personally seen make a huge difference for business owners is Quo, formerly OpenPhone.

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17:15I'm going to go straight to eBay and buy a bunch of stuff. Do not. That's lesson one of one that I teach on the podcast. Now, there are great dealers on eBay. You have to get to know them, but eBay is fraught with fakes. And so that's pretty much the starting point because even as a new collector, I bought fakes on eBay. So we steer people away. There's a couple of different marketplaces that are great places. Because one of the things about ancient coins that people should recognize is that if you buy from a dealer, they should give you a lifetime guarantee. Meaning if somebody found out this to be fake over time, you're able to return it for full price at any point during your ownership of the coin.

17:55So that's a steadfast reason why you trust them, right? And there's a couple of marketplaces. One that comes to mind, Bcoins, which is a marketplace for collectors. They have something like 250 ,000 people that participate on that website or something. But that's a marketplace in which you can try to find and investigate. There are other companies that just do shows. And so in that case, these companies are inactive during the non-show time period. So they will offer or give you an opportunity to sell their stuff while they're not at shows and consign. So you don't even have to buy the inventory.

18:31So like, you know, a drop ship or something like that. Yeah. There are places within the ancient coin business that will work with you to do that. So you don't even have to do the upfront investment. Okay, interesting. So yeah, dropship or consignment relationship with other distributors, other dealers. You could just rip this page out of the playbook and pivot to almost any other different niche. If you have the chops like Dean has, you know, to build up your own traffic sources, you just slap up a page, nobody's going to find it. But if you can build up a little bit of an audience and a following and some relationship and trust building and all this other stuff that's really hard to do, then you can start to drive your own traffic and not have to have that upfront inventory risk.

19:10That's right. The best recommendation I can give to anyone who's trying to do this is network, get to know people in the industry, even if they're not somebody that you would normally be friends with. Always just try to get an understanding, try to get involved because a lot of this stuff, people have tried, a lot of this stuff people have made mistakes on, but a lot of people would really help you succeed if you gave them the chance. And I have found that more often than not, that people are willing to do what it takes to help you get ahead sometimes. Yeah, I remember as a kid begging dad to take us to this like baseball card show that was at the mall the next town over.

19:48And it sounds like these things are still going on. Oh yeah. Both for pretty much any kind of collectible, but including coins. So you guys have just like your own little wing, your own little section of like the general coin show exhibition hall type of thing. And here's my ancient coin people. So like in a major show like the ANA, which is in Chicago, it's in Rosemont at their giant theater, right? So there'll be, you know, a thousand dealers. So we'll be kind of put in the corner. Ancients are kind of a niche in coins, so they're not like up front or anything like that. Usually goes to Americans and shipwrecks.

20:25But yeah, we definitely have a section that's usually by world coins. But I'm trying to bring us to the front because I like us the most. Okay. The reason I bring it up is like somebody gave this bit of advice, like if the industry or the niche is big enough to have its own convention, then it's big enough, right? If it has multiple, like, you know, maybe it's too big, right? How do you niche it out? So it's interesting to see like, oh no, if we can, and then these types of events attract buyers as well. So you're selling through there, your existing inventory and collection. So there's a physical product you know buy low sell high component to the business that is is pretty interesting yeah and and i will tell you that ancients do only have one show on their own in new york and the rest of the year there's they're just a tag along for their the main conventions so when you're playing retailer either through these events or through your own website is there i mean you're you're dictated by what the market value is and market prices but like is there a target margin that you're shooting for on each transaction?

21:27So the great thing and the interesting part about ancient coins is American coins, for those people who know, are very regimented and very detailed collecting. So they are very specific on grades. They know exact quantities that were produced, how many are in each grade. They know a lot and they know how much it costs. There is no such thing as a price guide in ancient coins. Yeah, well, you're kind of building it or you're building it as you go. Right. And so there are certain forums that you can look at that give you auction history. There's a couple different places where you can kind of average out what you think went at auction and stuff like that.

22:05But to me, the market is more about what you can get for something, especially in ancient coins, because a lot of times you'll have one of only a handful. So it's more about how you marry the customer to the product. In certain instances where it's just like straight runners, anybody will buy it. But like if you found something very specific, like, you know, let's say a Jake Paul or somebody came up to us and said, I want a coin of the Alexander the Great. You know, that's certainly something you would do very specific to him. You try to find something meaningful. And that's really the great part about it is because there's so many opportunities for people to connect, whether it's through religion, whether it's through spirituality, astrological, whatever it is, there's ways to connect people to these coins.

22:50And so kind of the higher end stuff, I always look to marry to a customer, something that'd be meaningful to them, something that represents something powerful to them. Okay. So what I'm hearing is there's no blue book value. There's lots of price elasticity or price flexibility, rather. There is. And this is another reason why it's so interesting is because it's what you get for it. Yeah. If you can craft a story, this is another baseball card story related to dad. You're looking up at the Beckett magazine and I'd be like, dad, look, this one's worth 15 bucks. He's like, you show me somebody willing to pay you 15 bucks for it.

23:25Then you could say it's 15 bucks. It's like, fine. Just go around bursting kids' bubbles all day long. That's right. But yeah, there's still baseball cards are still a big deal. And I like the, what's it called? The substantialness, It's the heaviness of gold or silver or something about it that's magical to me. Yeah, and people trying to fill out a collection, almost by definition, it has some sentimental value to them. Where even you look at some of these, oh, people auctioned off a Michael Jordan jersey. It's like, was that worth$3 million? Well, it was to the person who bought it. And they're hoping somebody else will pay that much down the road or not.

23:59They're just like, well, I want to hang this up in my man cave. One of the things that people really get excited for, and I always caution people against this, is they try to collect every emperor from the beginning. They think that's a good way to collect. I will tell you that over the 1500 years of the empire, it is very hard to collect all of the emperors, particularly when some of them have died in very short order, pretty much after they took the crown. Yeah, not a lot of coins were minted in that window. So go back to the margins. If you doubled your money, is that a win? If you 10X your money, is there a sweet spot for you?

24:33For my business, generally, I like to gross margin 30-40%. That's just based on my business expertise. Probably as I fool with it, it might adjust up or down. But that's always kind of where I felt like you take home enough after that to feel good about it. So that's about where I'm at. Okay, that's helpful to know. Not necessarily trying to hit a 10x home run on these flips. Oh, no, no. You'll sit on inventory forever if you try to do that. Absolutely. Okay, let's talk about turn. What's the inventory look like today? Is there a rule of thumb like, oh, I want to have a two-month supply or something like that?

25:09Right, so inventory is a very interesting subject with this hobby because there are certain things that move quick and certain things that don't. I would say that for beginning collectors, I have a lot of packaged items. So like somebody can get a box of four Constantine coins, the whole collector set, and those tend to move. And then kind of the single one-off coins tend to move, meaning like a cheapy Constantine-era coin for 60 bucks, it'll move pretty quickly. As you start to get into the more expensive silver and gold items, they don't move as quickly. So my recommendation to anybody that's interested in this is start small.

25:47You can definitely make bigger margins on some of the higher end stuff, but you're going to sit on it and you're going to sit on it for a while. OK, that's just because this particular buyer has a certain interest. Maybe they're Sicilian. Maybe they're not. Maybe they're from, you know, Macedon. Maybe they're not. There's a lot of different reasons that people find interest in coins, but you generally stick to the ones that move. So like Athenian Owl, Alexander the Great, and then some of the package stuff moves. But then as you get into more, I guess, elite territory, you have to be careful because, like I said, unless you have a buyer direct, you can sit on it.

26:22And that hurts, especially in a small business. Yeah, you've got all this cash tied up in inventory. Yeah. The one thing that I've always learned in my full time jobs is cash is king. And that's you can't buy more inventory until you move that one item. And so you might be inclined to sell something at cost or below to get cash. And that's one of the drawbacks of having high-end stuff is that you still have to have cash no matter what to buy the next thing. Yeah, this was a huge issue in the car business. That was my one and only corporate job and going around to these parts departments at Ford dealers.