743: $1,000 a Month with Simple Vibe-Coded Apps

24:03Okay. So when we change that, that's when it went up to 6 ,000 the next three months. So with one-time use apps, what I would say is weekly tends to perform very well, like JPEG to PDF converter, paraphrase, it's going to be one-time use. If it's like a frequency app like that people would use every day, go with yearly. But you can just see what the market is doing and just copy it. Got it. Got it. Okay. Yeah. And then Apple or the App Store is taking like their 30 % cut on all this stuff. Yeah, they do 15 if you're under a million, but yeah, they'll take their cut, which sucks. Okay. But they're giving you the distribution in a way.

24:37They are. No, that's totally fine. I was going to ask if you have any best practices on the creation side, whether it's reverse prompting or, you know, asking cloud code or whatever your favorite tool is to go out and build the actual nuts and bolts of this thing before you can add it to the app stores yeah i mean quad code is by far the most popular right now that's what all the developers are using and they're going back and forth within chat gpt as well in codex and being like okay help me debug this or what's the right way to prompt this i think for me it's really just like can this do this one thing very well so hey build me an app that just converts jpegs to pdf or takes a picture and takes it to a pdf and it's an easy prompt but that jpeg to pdf maybe took two or three days max for us to just get it out in the app store.

25:25We didn't even have the ideal user experience. We just wanted to see if we can get downloads for the app first. Then if we could and get it to rank, then we start building on top of it and adding a proper paywall and all that stuff. And so that's how we kind of dissect it. Okay. Okay. So the first version may not even have a paywall. The first version is just like, let's get it functional and get it uploaded. Time is the most important variable. If it's going to take you a week to get that paywall in there, then just launch it. If it's going to take you a couple hours and you're really invested in this, then I would prefer ideally launching with a paywall because then you could really see if people are willing to pay for it if you get that distribution.

26:03But if you don't have the time yet, then go ahead and launch it. Got it. So one of my favorite strategies, Nick, is to do what I call a lifetime growth hack. So I call this the greatest growth hack in the world. And it worked for one of the clients. So we took an app that was making about 200 bucks a month and made it to $7 ,000 a month with just doing the things that we talked about. Okay. So now number one, ratings prompt during the first time user experience. Yes, that works. About 1 % of all the downloads would leave a review for you. Cause like I said before, reviews do matter in terms of how well you rank, not the most important, but they are still important.

26:36Do ASO, which is SEO for the app store, optimize your paywall, definitely have it during the onboarding experience. And then what we're going to do is make a lifetime offer and we're going to make it for free and we're going to promote it. And we do have this service that we acquired called IndyAppSanta, which is just Groupon for apps or AppSumo for apps. Now there was pushback because Apple was starting to email developers saying like, you're doing something funky. That's probably because we're getting a boost in downloads. We're getting a boost in free in-app purchases and we're getting a boost in reviews.

27:07So Apple's like, let's stop. Something abnormal is happening here. Yeah. Yeah. But we We did 100 ,000 downloads for an AI app, created a lifetime offer. We did the ASO first, right? We did the ASO. We changed his paywall a little bit. And then we added a ratings prompt during the first time user experience. So we did 100 ,000 downloads, 800 new ratings, 200 in the US, 600 worldwide. If I had to eliminate one step, it would be this. I would ask for it a little bit later, like maybe day two or after they did something within the app, I would ask for the rating. So yes, we'll get less ratings, but we'll still get ratings out of this.

27:40Is this just kind of a notification or is this just part of like the user flow in the app that you would ask cloud code to be like, put a little notification or a request to leave a review after this step or something? Yeah. It is a built-in iOS prompt. So it's just a default thing that pops up. Okay. Yeah. It's something you can tell cloud code to do. So it made$7 ,000 right after that because the ASO started kicking in because now we have ratings. Now we have a fully optimized keyword and title. So the app was just making a few hundred bucks and it launched in 2023. Just make a few hundred bucks for a long time.

28:15And then within the first month, we made it to 7 ,000, then 6 ,000 to 5 ,000. The app went on to make 70 ,000 and ultimately 90 ,000 within the first year of us working with this particular app using that exact strategy. So Apple is starting to send emails because I believe because of these ratings boosts. So if you just wait on the ratings boost, I think you'll be fine and you'll get the benefits of that initial boost of doing that lifetime offer. You don't have to do this. It's just an option. If you're like, hey, keywords aren't sticking, Steve, you know, I followed this. Well, this is another like plan B to it all.

28:50Okay. To kind of give it a little marketing push and then hopefully it sticks in the rankings is kind of the goal. I mean, same similar to self-publishing was I'm going to do this free launch or I'm going to do this discounted launch and just flex some marketing muscle and hopefully get the algorithm spinning in your favor after that. See, I have a fancy little soundboard that I can use for that. That's a correct answer, Nick. Ding, ding, ding. Nice. But here's an app that went just so, you know, I wanted to give you more details. Like this is one app that just went from like$10 a day to$1 ,000 a month.

29:20So they're not always going to be$7 ,000 a month. And then, you know, like here's some more niche apps that have done pretty well, just kind of adopting the strategy here. Is there a world where somebody searches the app store for their, the problem that they're having, you know, PDF to JPEG converter. They download the thing, they get hit with this weekly paywall, and then they just go back to ChatGPT and say, can you turn this JPEG into a PDF for me? Absolutely. But then my counter to that would be like, why did they even search for that? And I think, you know, when we're talking about these numbers, Nick, like most people don't pay you, right?

29:55Like the average, like for one of our apps that's doing about 35 ,000 MRR, we get 12 % of the people starting a free trial. Of the 12%, 60 % are actually paying us. So they did not cancel the trial, which is pretty high. So to give you some benchmarks, 5 % to 10 % is pretty good for people starting a trial. That's good. So that means, in other words, 95 % to 90 % of people not paying you is good. And then the people who activated trial to actually paying you, about 30 % to 40 % is average for most apps. So that's why I like the niche ones, because you'll get a higher trial to paid. And if you do a hard paywall, which means no X on your paywall, either pay us or get out.

30:39We've seen almost double the trial activation rates for one of the apps that we acquired. When we had a hard paywall, we saw eight to 10 ,000. I'll show you this real quick because I'm a big proponent of hard paywalls and I'm a big proponent of data. The app was making about a thousand to$2 ,000 a month with just a hundred downloads. Hard paywall with the increased pricing went up all the way to over 10 ,000. What happened here? Soft paywall. We had to put the X. That little tiny X halved our sales, that little X on the paywall. And then we got the X back. No X again, we got it back up. And again, no new features, just pretty much.

31:19That's why I would force them to pay just to see if you got some traction. Is that just a split test that you ran or you were getting negative feedback or what was, why would you have to close it out if it was working? Apple forced us to do it. Apple is very inconsistent with their reviews. So sometimes they're okay with hard paywalls, like the 35 ,000 MRR app that we have. They're okay with the hard paywall. Sometimes they're not. It was really finding the right reviewer. And one reviewer said no, one reviewer said yes, which is crazy. Is that just a factor of, like it says, free to download, customer expectation?

31:55What goes into that? Really depends on your reviewer. a lot of big popular apps really have a hard paywall and you're like why did they get to do it and we don't and for this app look i'm not even doing a hard paywall and we're able to generate you know twenty five hundred dollars with this app and it's like i don't need to but like at the same time we've we ab tested this sometimes a hard paywall works better this time i didn't want to do it because there are some repercussions off of this that's why i would just do it in a brand new way of doing it like a brand new app because like i want to see if just in the early stages if people are willing to pay or not.

32:30Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, if it works, they will invest more money into split testing and building out the feature set and like doing everything else. That makes sense. Any other best practices that we should know about when we're submitting the app for approval or even like into the testing phase, kind of setting the thing up for success? You mentioned, well, I want to put the exact keyword that I'm targeting as the title of the app. I want to put it into the first screenshot that pulls up. I want to put somebody's face there to attract attention, anything else we should know about to set ourselves up for success.

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35:25So if you're just launching your first ever app, okay? One, that frequency app, we were able to make$1 ,000 just with ASO and the screenshots were butt ugly. I'm telling you the best practices, Nick, but I wanted to prove to everybody that I can make$1 ,000 with the ugliest screenshots. So they were literally screens of the app and that was it. So as the best practices, again, time is the most important variable. If you can't do screenshots, you'll be fine. Get distribution first. You're gonna need terms and conditions and private policy. So you gotta have that. And there's some like, you can Google it or you can just have ChatGPT write it up for you.

35:58But those are things that you need to have before launching an app. Now, you can just launch as a independent developer or a business. Obviously business, you need a Dunn's number and you need an LLC and all that stuff. But you can also just, we started this as a personal and I transformed it into a business. It was a hassle. So if this is something you're going to do, go ahead and start with personal. I've got clients that are doing like 20K a month just with a personal account. So it's not going to make that big of a factor and just know that you can always change it. So this started as a personal because time, right?

36:34And then we launched. Okay. Now it's under young aces. Yes, sir. Okay, got it. That's definitely something I would overthink. Be like, well, it's going to show up on the download page. What do I want people to see here? Like, do I need a separate LLC for each thing that's like branded to the keyword? Okay, don't don't overthink it. That's part two, Nick. I'll come back for that. Once people have found success. But I do want to show you this one last thing on the paywall. Having the word free, increased conversions by 11%. So you think buy a hamburger, get free fries, right? You got to buy it to get the free thing, but adding that word free in front of a feature, a premium feature, if they bought it, increased conversions by 11%.

37:13Okay. Now, the word continue works the best on iOS. I know it's subscribe, but nobody wants to subscribe. I know you want to try like start free trial. Start free trial works better on Android because Android is, you know, people don't like to pay on Android. So if you had to launch on one platform, I would just launch on iOS. Most people make way more money on iOS than they do on Android. Okay. Okay. 30 % increase in conversions with the word continue versus subscribe versus anything else. It works better. Okay. The last thing is, well, second to last thing, no payment now, right underneath. If you have a trial, by adding that one word, increase the trial activations by 30 % for another app that we work with.

37:57So have no payment now right underneath your call to action, your continue button. The last thing is show some comparison. Yes, we can do math, but nobody wants to do math anymore. You have a paywall that shows a monthly plan as a yearly price, and then you have a weekly plan as a yearly price. When we showed it as a yearly price versus showing nothing and letting the users do the math, right? It just says$9.99 a month or$60 a year. We saw a 38 % increase in conversions when we just showed the prices in the same format. Make them comparable. Just make it easier for the end user to see the comparisons in the same length of time.

38:39Right, right. Yeah, just like fractions. I need a common denominator if I'm going to be able to make a decision here. Yeah, exactly. You're way better at this than coming up. Common denominators unbuddled a very popular product. That's my takeaways from this. And I love this. I mean, this is gold. Like, you know, just the language of continue. It feels like I'm just going to the next step in the logical next step. Like, oh, sure, I can continue. no payment today okay i can continue i was going to ask you mentioned um syndicating this similar functionality app to google play to the android store but you mentioned android people don't want to pay like why is that just a stereotype what's the reputation there probably a stereotype but also true android has way more users but they have all these phones too and so they can defer they can change from like i have this android phone that i use for testing it's 150 right but But this iPhone that we all have, you know, it's like a thousand bucks.

39:33And so what we've just found is more people are willing to pay on iOS than they are on Android. But more people, you have a bigger reach with Android. That's really interesting. I would have assumed, you know, copy and paste or just ask Cloud Code, hey, can you generate the Android version of this with the same functionality, the same interstitial screens, the same paywall, like lather, rinse, repeat, and essentially reach double the audience. But maybe not. not quite that case. You will reach a bigger audience. It's just that audience is not going to pay you. So like even some of our big clients that are doing like six figures a month, they've sort of ignored the Android version.

40:11They're like, yeah, but you know, it's fine. It's just there for those who want to use it, but we don't really focus. A lot of their marketing efforts are not focused on the Android version. How passive is this stuff once it's up and running? Like to what extent are you tweaking the software or tweaking the keywords or like doing any of this stuff on a monthly basis or a weekly basis? Honestly, if I could just do this, the app side of things, that's what I would do. And, you know, we have multiple sides of our business and it is pretty massive. Like that paraphrase, I can maybe work on it, you know, an hour or two a week.

40:51So I want to get back to running just more app stuff because we have an agency too. Is that optimization or is that customer support? Where does the time go? It's more optimization, man. I mean, I focus so much on distribution and monetization, customer support for these apps. The good stuff about apps is if people want a refund, you don't have to do anything. Apple handles everything. So Apple, that 15, 30 % that you have to give up, you just say, like the app that we acquired, we get people being like, hey, I forgot to cancel the trial. Like, can I get a refund? I'm like, I just sent them the same template of email.

41:22Like, hey, go to Apple. But we get those very rarely. like it's maybe one or two a week we get those emails okay so it's not very common and most people understand how to do stuff within the app so it do you yeah the support is just not that much as you would think do you set up a separate domain and help email for everything like here you know if you want something for the pdf converter thing you got to email this or it's like it's all under you know app masters and all under the young aces like media brand i would just keep it under the same one because most people are not going to email you like i've seen people not even have websites for their apps and just like a facebook page or an instagram page apple will allow that so again back to my whole like time is the most important variable whatever gets you to launch and distribution the quickest because that fixes everything nick if you get downloads you can fix your monetization you can fix your retention you can fix all this stuff but if you don't have downloads, you don't have crap.

42:21So it's sort of like, that's why I just lean towards getting downloads. Number one. Okay. You mentioned buying apps, mentioned selling apps. So it seems like there's a robust ecosystem around these as their own little mini businesses, mini assets, especially if it has recurring revenue and has like traction, I could see how that would be an attractive asset. Is there a marketplace that you like? Like what's a typical multiple? Like how are these things valued? I've acquired and sold a bunch of different apps. The way I think about it, I'm going to use this analogy. I love baseball. I love softball.

42:52You know, I've still played in a slow pitch men's league. And I started thinking like, I'm not a home run hitter, Nick. Like I'm five, seven. Like I'm just, I'm like a buck fifties soaking wet. So like, I'm just not going to hit home runs, right? Every time I try to, I pop up. And so I'm just a great single sitter. I will always get on base. Like I legit hit like 700 on a slow pitch. Right. So nice, nice. So I started thinking like, all right, let's use this philosophy when it comes to building businesses. Let's just hit a bunch of singles. Let's hit a bunch of singles and doubles and we can make apps and we can sell them.

43:21Flippa is the easiest. Okay. We just sold an app for, you asked me some range and I'll tell you the range, but let's just say five figures under$50 ,000. I sold an app there, but above 10. Right. And it was on Flippa, the app that we acquired. It was through a broker that I know very well, Evelyn Herrera. And she's like, Steve, I've got this app that's exclusive to you before I even make it public. I want to see if you want it. And I was like, Evelyn, I want this app because Nick, I already knew the keywords existed for this app. And the app was already doing half a million. Okay. You're looking at it like, and your eyes get wide and be like, oh, there's already like three things I could do to double what it's doing.

43:57Well, I just knew that the keyword existed. And I was like, what, they're already making half a million? Without even getting the traffic that they could be getting. They were already getting decent traffic. And so that this was a benefit. Okay. So when I saw it, I was like, okay, I knew that keyword. I knew that category. It's in the health and fitness space. And then it was already doing good revenues. So I was like, even better, like, you know, half a million to zero, it's going to take me a lot longer to get to zero, but a thousand, 2000, it's pretty quick. Like one algorithm change, you might, your revenues might be screwed.

44:24Right? So I already knew that too. And then I looked at the app and I was like, okay, I can change the paywall. The onboarding isn't that good. And then no offense. I know we're talking about vibe coding, but I was like, it's harder for a vibe coded app to come into the space in the health and fitness space because you need a trainer you need real humans to do this stuff so that's what i saw yeah i'm thinking of what is your moat gonna be if you get something because there's the next people there's the people listening to this now doing their own reverse engineering research be like well this seems to be pretty popular maybe i could spin up my own version of this in a week and and see what happens my opinion is distribution if you can figure out a distribution channel so why i'd acquire this app too is only aso and apple ads that was the only two marketing channels from a distribution perspective that they were utilizing to get to that point so the which means the opportunity is still huge you know i've been doing this for 17 plus years and the opportunity is still there i'm still excited about this category but i was like okay if i add on facebook and meta ads there's these new campaigns called web to app which are essentially mean you get people to buy on the web you have your whole onboarding and your whole purchase on the web but you get then they download the app so that's why it's called web to app they download the app and so you offset apple's like 15 and you get to use stripe or paddle to you pay them the three to four percent so a lot better margins for you but the distribution is now purely probably has to be all paid so you can use google ads you can use facebook ads to drive distribution and that's where i saw the the bigger opportunity opportunity for this app.

45:59So to sell an app, you always want to leave a little bit more room for growth, right? You don't want to be like fully saturated. Hey, I've taken it everywhere I could. There's no room for growth. To sell an app, you have to show growth potential. And then for me as an acquirer, like I got to see that growth potential because then what's the point of me acquiring this asset? Is it just cash flow? Is it just to, you know, make my numbers bigger? Yeah. Would it be typically like two to four X annual earnings or something? Yeah, it's roughly around two to four X. Okay. We've sold a bunch for two and we've acquired a bunch for two.

46:33And then this one that we just recently acquired, pretty good chunk of change, but it was around 2.5 is where we landed. Yeah. What's your take on the, in App Store ad, like to promote your app? Like, is that worthwhile for a new developer? If you've got some level of organic traction, you know, you mentioned earlier, like, I don't want to spend money. I want to get the downloads for free. With Apple ads, which is what you are calling in-app ads, they are essentially like Google AdWords, but in the app store. And so all you need are keywords. We've already done the keyword research, right? And Apple, back to your passiveness, Apple has this new campaign structure that we're seeing really good results on.

47:14It's called Max Conversions. And you can just start that. And that's just Apple saying like, I got you, Nick. Tell us how much you want to spend and tell me what's the cost per install that you want and I'll take care of the rest. And we're actually seeing pretty good numbers. ROAS, return on ad spend perspective, just running those ads. So if you have to spend money, I'd start with Apple ads. Or if you're doing Google, even though we told you not to, I would do Google ads, Android. I'll do Google ads because Google ads, you can get a lot of cheap downloads, but they just might not pay you. Whereas Apple, you might be more expensive, but they're more likely to pay you.

47:46You literally just need keywords and you do exact match, right? And start with that. Or you can do max conversions and you can say, hey, Apple, I'm willing to spend$10,$20 a day. And Apple does not need certain metrics to make it smart because you're just telling it what to bid on. So you say, hey, I'm willing to spend$20 a day. I only want a dollar to do dollars. You might not spend it though, but Apple is starting to get really smart with that stuff. Is that a viable way to test your paywall, to test like, okay, I could spend two weeks driving some traffic here. If I wasn't ranking organically, I could see, does anybody want this thing?

48:22Is anybody willing to pay for this? The way I do it is do keyword research and then building and changing if I can get it to rank first and foremost. And then doing this growth hack, this lifetime free stuff that we talked about. Like step two, that didn't work. Plan B is this growth hack. And then plan C would be run ads and then see what's going on. Because I'm cheap, Nick. And step D, step four, go back to the drawing board. If it still didn't work, go come up with a new app idea. Dude, what I say is, look, we're giving you the numbers and I want to be very transparent with everybody. like these apps i'm showing you the ones that are making money but we also have like a bunch so my hit rate from uh if we're talking batty average softball 70 700 but with apps it's about 400 like i need to launch 10 to get four right to generate money so we have like a tattoo generator tattoo app and it's not making that much money and so you guys can see as you check out paraphrasing all these other apps like there are other apps that we've tried that we vibe coded and we thought there was keyword volume, but sometimes those keywords just aren't going to be sticky as much as the other keywords.

49:26So I'm about 40 % hit rate, betting 400 from an app perspective. That's super helpful to know and appreciate that level of transparency. And like, not everything we touch turns to gold, but if we touch enough things, you know, there's going to be enough gold. That's really cool. Steve, I've taken a ton of notes. I'm excited to dive back into Cloud Code and see if I can get a couple of these things shipped, because I think that would be a lot of fun. What's next for you? What's got you excited for App Masters this year? Just really get back to apps, building apps. I think there's a huge opportunity still with these Web2 app and with this Vibe coding.

49:59I think literally, Nick, anybody can be an entrepreneur these days. All good. Well, appmasters.com, you can find Steve over there. Be sure to check out App Masters on YouTube. Tons of cool tutorials and the kind of deeper dive stuff on everything we've been talking about today. and I want to hear what apps you guys build, listeners build as a result from this episode. I think we've opened up the playbook a little bit and hopefully demystified some of the stuff that you can go put out into the world and see what kind of traction that it gets. Steve, let's wrap this thing up with your number one tip for Side Hustle Nation, 2026 edition, and then we'll do a little rewind the clock back to 2017.

50:38I'll tell you what you came up with then. Oh, that'll be cool. I was a distribution, Nick. I was a think about distribution with any business, how are you going to get eyeballs? If you can figure out how to get eyeballs, you can figure out the rest. And I'm a living proof because I had eyeballs with the podcast first that turned into an agency that in turn to me being able to acquire different apps. And so it led me to this great life that we have, but distribution would be my number one, like figure that part out. Absolutely. You remember what you told me in 2017? No idea, bro. All right. It was connect with people.

51:11And the best way to do it is to interview people that you admire. That whole episode we did was about turning the App Masters podcast, which maybe at that time was like the app marketing show or something, into multiple streams of income. It's a, you know, you had sponsorships and you had live events and you had the agency. It was like, it was really cool. Like, oh, we had seven or eight different income streams on the back of that podcast. And like you said, well, it led to the distribution piece, piece of the pie here today. A couple of takeaways for me, obviously we talked about following demand rather than trying to create demand for yourself.

51:42So looking at different market research, product research, keyword research type of tools before you go out and build anything. And then thinking really simple functionality, like don't try and recreate the world's most complex tools, like solve a single problem and go from there. And like Steve said, it might take a handful of swings before you find one that hits. If you're wondering what to listen to next, go check out Steve's old episode from way back when in the archives. I think it holds up pretty well. Other than that, of course, you're free to choose your own adventure in the archives. I think you'll find most of the 700 plus episodes that we've done are pretty evergreen.

52:20But if you want a more curated approach, I want to invite you to try my little playlist generator quiz at hustle.show. Just answer a few short multiple choice questions and it'll build you a personalized playlist based of some of our greatest hits episodes based on your answers. So again, that's hustle.show. Totally free. Give it a try today. Big thanks to Steve for sharing his insight. Thanks to our sponsors for helping make this content free for everyone. Sidehustlenation.com slash deals is where to go to find all the latest offers from our sponsors in one place. Thank you for supporting the advertisers that support the show.

52:53That is it for me. Thank you so much for tuning in. If you're finding value in the show, the greatest compliment is to share with a friend. Fire off that text message to that friend of yours who needs to hear this, or maybe they've been dabbling with Claude Code a little bit already. Until next time, let's go out there and make something happen. And I'll catch you in the next edition of the Side Hustle Show. Hustle on.