745: Bedtime Stories for Grownups: How a Boring Podcast Turned into a Booming Business

20:30Kathryn Nicolai:I'm picturing like subliminal, like just whispering Squarespace as somebody is falling asleep. Get your greens. You know, I'm like, a lot of times people who don't understand podcasting and don't understand how the business side of it works will kind of send me nasty grams about like, I just realized there's ads on your show. Are you working to plant things into my subconscious? I always say, no, I'm working to pay my mortgage. But, you know, this is how podcasts make money. So, you know, we had pre-rolls and then I would allow like three minutes in at the end of my introduction. But my rule was once I tuck you in for bed, no interruptions.

21:10And it really shortened the list of advertisers for us. We were with Stitcher and iHeart at different times. And because we weren't always the lowest hanging fruit, the easiest show to sell, we would get sort of shelved and they would come back to us in a year. And still, we would make good money, but they would be like, we're not really going to try very hard to sell ads on your show. And then when your contract comes to renew, your show is so undervalued that you can be in a really difficult position to renew that contract or go for a new one.

21:40Kathryn Nicolai:Yeah, that's interesting because it's showing massive download numbers, big audience, but kind of limited inventory. Yes, it was limited in inventory. So we then moved to a, just in the last two years, to a much smaller kind of boutique network, and it has been such a good choice for us. They work so intently, so hard. We have great advertisers. they have great success, which I'm not surprised about. Because one thing we always tried to explain was, okay, yes, you're about to fall asleep, but guess what? You're not watching TV. You're not doing 10 things at once. You're actually just listening to me.

22:16This might be the first time today you actually put your phone down and just listened. And I'm a super trusted voice. So for those advertisers who could grab their heads around it, it's been great.

22:26Kathryn Nicolai:Yeah. It's a powerful advertising medium, especially for the brands that get it. For sure. For sure. And then never trying to, it sounds like, sell these spots yourself, which was kind of the place that I was medium in and out. You know, brands would come to me direct. And so we'd cut a deal. And then some other, you know, pseudo network ad salespeople would send me deals. And it became a lot of back and forth. And it kind of being ultimately a distraction from creating the content, which was the fun part. and I've been very happy with the sales network the last couple years because they've done a better job making it easy for me.

23:05Yeah, I was overwhelmed by that stuff. I knew I didn't have the business background. I mean, I opened my yoga studio when I was 22. I have a degree in Spanish. I was like, I don't know what a lot of these things mean. I just knew enough to know I would not be successful in trying to negotiate those things myself. Luckily, by the time we moved a bit forward in time. I had a manager, I had an agent, I had folks around me who could figure that stuff out.

23:31Kathryn Nicolai:Yeah. So kind of delegating where it makes sense, where it's not in your wheelhouse. I like that. The other revenue stream is the premium subscription, 40 bucks a year, five bucks a month for the ad-free version. Plus, you know, what else is behind the paywall, the membership here for Nothing Much Happens? They get monthly bonus episodes of which now there, I think, are about 60 or more. So a lot more stories. They also get these episodes we call Much More Happens that see you through an entire night of sleep. They're sometimes up to 10 hours long. So for folks who just want to keep on listening, they can just keep on listening.

24:10They don't have to reset their device or anything. Everything is ad-free, not just for Nothing Much Happens, but for all three shows, Stories from the Village of Nothing Much, and First This, my meditation podcast. So for like a dime a day, I feel like it's a pretty good value. And for us, it has been a really good way to monetize the show, to give folks who feel like they've been given something by this free resource a way to give back, which we hear from a lot. People say, I just, you know, I didn't even mind skipping the ads or listening to the ads, but I want to support you. I don't want you to go anywhere.

24:43Kathryn Nicolai:Yeah. When did you launch the membership? We launched the membership probably in 2021 or 2022. We started with SupportingCast and then branched out to Apple as well, starting last year. Okay, that was the next thing. Was this Patreon? Was this through Apple? What's the mechanics or the tech behind processing payments and running it? I really like SupportingCast because you are still listening through the podcast player that you are used to and you like to listen to. So it's not like going to Patreon where you need to go to a separate app for that. For a lot of people, nothing changed except for the logo was a little different and they didn't hear ads.

25:22And that's the level of experience I wanted people to have. And you could use it if you were an Android user or an Apple user, wherever you came from. So I really do think they're a great company. They've been great partners with us. And Apple, of course, because they're Apple, you always got to make sure you got a few apples in your basket there. So I think it's a bigger company. It's a little bit harder to connect sometimes when you need assistance, but still a positive experience.

25:46Kathryn Nicolai:So to clarify, SupportingCast is for everybody who's not listening on Apple Podcasts and then Apple Podcasts has to have their own unique membership thing. You could still use SupportingCast and listen on Apple. You can decide SupportingCast just existed for a long time before Apple Premium existed. So anywhere you wanted to listen, whatever kind of device you have, it works. But for a lot of people who are listening on Apple, they see the subscribe button right there. It's so easy. So for those people, that might be the better way to navigate it. How did you present the offer when it first came up?

26:22Kathryn Nicolai:I assume on air, like at the beginning of the show, like if you want to skip the ad, like how did that pitch go? I probably way over explained it and kind of came from a place that was way too apologetic. Even though I understood that I deserved to be paid for the work I did, I still think I came at it from this place of, I'm so sorry that I have to do this. And I got so many messages that were like, girl, stop. Like, you have to eat. Like, stop. Yeah, we're happy to pay you. You've helped us solve this major problem in our lives. Exactly. Yeah. And it remains free. So if this isn't your cup of tea, hey, nothing changes for you.

26:56And even now, we don't have programmatic ads on the first eight episodes. so you're only ever going to hear my voice and I deliver ads in this tone of voice so if you are asleep I will not wake you up so it's all designed for like the best listener experience always so you know I think I've I've kind of finally gotten past the part where I feel like

27:16Kathryn Nicolai:I need to say sorry right yeah this is purely optional for you I like the dime a day reframe I mean it's very very inexpensive I can't think of a thing that costs a dime yeah what was the initial reaction, the take rates, and if you're comfortable sharing, what does the membership look like today in terms of the number of subscribers? It went well. That's all I remember. I think we're north of 13 ,000, 14 ,000 subscribers right now and growing at a steady, reliable rate that usually increases month over month. I know that our churn rate is ridiculous. Like 97 to 98 % of the people who buy a membership will renew their membership.

27:59So we lose almost no one.

28:01Kathryn Nicolai:Wow. That's really powerful for a lot of more traditional membership sites. Well, where it's$50 to$100 a month, it becomes a little bit more of a decision point on the credit card statement than$40 one time a year. Yeah. I was trying to right-size it. Even when I owned my yoga studio, I charged way too little constantly. That is just like a personal issue. Like I always want to make things as inexpensive as possible, but there are some issues with that, which I'm sure any entrepreneurial person will know that there's an issue of implied value and sustainability. So, you know, I think finding the right price for your product is a tricky thing, but probably better to err a little bit higher than lower.

28:40Kathryn Nicolai:Yeah. The cool thing about that is, especially with the low churn, and this is something that is unique to entrepreneurship is the ability to go out and give yourself a raise literally every month by getting another new member or a hundred new members and continuing to stack that up. For sure. And now that we've grown, we have quite a team, you know, and people need to get paid and there's a lot of expenses. So that has become such a reliable revenue stream for us. You know, I feel like ads can go up and down through the seasons, but for us, subscription has really become the most reliable source.

29:14Kathryn Nicolai:Yeah, it gives you a floor and say, well, if nothing else happens, at least we can do payroll. At least we know we're going to make money this month. Yes. So I like this membership model. There's the book sales royalties. There's the sponsorships on the show. Did you find that, well, now we got a good chunk of the people paying for the membership. So the ad impression number goes down. Was that meaningful in the conversations with advertisers? It wasn't a meaningful drop because we get new listeners constantly. And so we haven't seen, you know, as our premium grows, we haven't, we've actually just grown our other listenership as well.

29:52So we've never had a drop.

29:54Kathryn Nicolai:Yeah, yeah. It's like, you don't want to cannibalize this other thing for this new thing. From yourself. Yeah. Okay. I totally get that. On this site, there's also some merch, some nothing much happens swag. Is there anything else? Different revenue streams that we missed? Catherine's response, plus an exploration of her creative process in coming up with new stories all the time. Coming up right after this. One customer says this tool literally spoiled me. It's so easy. Another added that it's taken a point of anxiety and turned it into a seamless and easy process. Of course, they're talking about our sponsor, Gusto.

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32:22Kathryn Nicolai:Go to shopify.com slash side hustle. That's shopify.com slash side hustle. Well, we're about to launch an app. That's going to be really big. There are a couple other projects in the works expanding us in more media directions. I said, I want to meet you where you are. So we're branching out and building more stuff in other places. That's a slow process, but a really fun one. What's the app going to do? Is this kind of like a home base for all things? So all my stories take place in what I call the village of nothing much. And so many people said, I wish I could live in this village. It's such a lovely place.

33:00I really wish I could live there. And I thought, hmm, what if I could at least create like a virtual village for you to come hang out in? So it is absolutely a great place to listen to the podcast. For example, we can do things that we can't do through regular podcast app. Like, let's say you like to listen to the stories, but you kind of wish they had like nature sounds behind them, or you want to build out playlists in a different way, or you want to tag stuff. So it's a great place to listen to the podcast, but it also, we set it up kind of like the village itself. You land in the village square and you can go talk to other villagers in the cafe.

33:32You can take yoga classes from me. You can come and sit meditation with me. There are live creative writing experiences, journaling classes. It's just sort of like a community meeting point, a place to hang out on the internet that isn't scary or crazy.

33:47Kathryn Nicolai:Yeah, you anticipate there being a social media element where listeners could connect with other listeners who were in bond over their, you know, struggle with sleep. And I don't know what else happens from there. Yeah. And usually appreciation for the stories, but also sort of appreciation for the lifestyle that the stories are talking about, for the kind of values that are there. You know, that's what we see a lot in our comments section. But we also just see people helping each other. You know, we actually had to create a fund for people were gifting the premium membership to strangers because they would see in the comments, oh, I can't wait to become a premium member, but I just can't afford it this month.

34:24And somebody would say, I'll pay for you. Oh, wow. How do we do this? And so we set up a fund so that people could sort of be angels and come in and donate. And then, you know, you would see people say, just had a really bad day today. This and this happened. But, you know, I know I'm gonna be able to sleep tonight. And then people would comment, man, I hope you're going to be all right. And you just built this community around it of people who value kindness and gentleness. And I think there's a lot of places on the Internet to go where you don't have that. So let me build one where you do.

34:51Kathryn Nicolai:You're a world builder of sorts with this village of nothing much and the stories that happen around it where there's a familiarity week to week and that's somewhat unique. So I want to talk about the creative process that comes up with these stories. We've been extolling the virtues of podcasting for half an hour, but with it comes this expectation of recreating the product essentially every week, or in your now your case, two times a week. And that can be a labor of love, but it's something that has to happen. So what's your process like for coming up with continually new stories here? The good news is I don't see me running out anytime soon.

35:35I think because I spent 20 years full-time as a yoga teacher, I really trained myself to notice small moments that felt good. It was my bread and butter every day. And because of that, I see a million times a day something I could write a story about, something I could build a sleep experience around. So I have a running list in my notes app that is probably 100 points long, and I add to it constantly, of ideas for stories. And also, because we're eight years in, we have existing storylines that I get to revisit. There are characters now that people really love, and I can go back and tell the next part of their story and have them interact with other people.

36:16I built my own little like Christmas village and then I just go, and this person goes over here and hangs out at the bakery. Let's see what happens. And in that way, it really is designed sort of like a grown-up Mr. Rogers neighborhood.

36:28Kathryn Nicolai:And I love it so much creatively. I have so much fun. Yes, it is a lot to write constantly, but the good news is I love it and I am a prolific writer. So even when people in the past have offered to come on board and write freelance for me, I've always really just out of selfishness said, no, I want to do this. So it still is all you coming up with these new stories and everything. Adding to the notes app and then going from there. What do you do for the 10 hour episodes? We're going to play the same thing over and over again. Those are compilations. So we'll take so many episodes that are like spring favorites and we'll put them all together so that you get a super long one.

37:07Sometimes I'll write like a, I wrote a seven episode series about a wedding that took place in the Village of Nothing Much. And the last episode was maybe like an hour and 15 minutes. But usually my stories are right about 30, 35 minutes.

37:22Kathryn Nicolai:Okay. And they all have to not have a huge, you know, exciting plot line. They just kind of have to plot along and no cliffhangers. It's a unique skill set. Yeah, I feel like I've really kind of hammered it out. By now I know the right way to approach it. I'm always going to start with like a really just naturally calming experience or activity. And then I'm going to layer in a lot of sensory details because sensory stuff makes us present. When we're present, we're naturally calm. It also sort of puts you, the listener, in the place. You know, maybe you know what lilacs smell like or you understand how it would feel to pull a velvet curtain across the window and feel the room get darker.

37:59So those kind of things are always going to be forefront. then I am going to put something that feels a little nostalgic or at least familiar. Even if it hasn't happened to you, you imagine it happening to you and that feels good. I also do stuff very deliberately. None of my characters have names because I want you to sort of feel like the character. You could be the innkeeper. You could be the baker. You could step into this and pull the story around you. And that becomes an extra layer of comfort for you. I'm very particular about the way that I write things slightly in the past. because you know that the story's already happened, and so it must have come out right.

38:37So even though I've already told you nothing's going to happen, I understand the anxious brain. And I'm going to let you know in the first couple of minutes of this story, this actually happened earlier today. So it's already finished, and everybody came out of it fine.

38:51Kathryn Nicolai:Yeah. Are there any tools or tech that you're using to help with this production process early on? You mentioned, well, I kind of wrote 12 episodes at a time. Is it similar today? in terms of production? I write a month ahead and I have like a really strict calendar that I stick to. So usually I am writing all of stories from the village of nothing much for a week. And then I'm writing all of nothing much happens usually takes me two weeks to write a month's worth. And then first this, I can kind of slot in because they're just short meditations. I slot into those spaces and then I spend a few days editing everything and then I go into the booth and record everything.

39:29So that's usually how I approach it. Energy-wise, creativity-wise, that seems like the best fit for me. If I lose my voice, it is not a good fit for me. That's like the only time that I've not delivered an episode is if I've lost my voice. And I've often laughed at the irony of this, that I have built a whole brand around rest

39:47Kathryn Nicolai:and I never take a break. We will be there every Monday. But it is truly a joy for me to do it. And I take it no AI assistance in, hey, we did a story about the innkeeper. And, you know, could you could you help me outline the sequel? No, I just I don't need it. And I don't think I would like it. I don't like to share my toys. I'm having a good time. Fair. Yeah. What's the part of the business that is your unique secret sauce and why outsource that? Yeah. You did mention YouTube as well. And so this is just syndicating the audio content over there. of people. It's become a pretty big podcasting platform.

40:27Yes. It's something we're trying to pay more attention to because we never paid attention to it. We just sort of, Bob really created a, he was like, do you want to have a YouTube channel? And I was like, oh, sure. And so he just stuck the label or the logo on the audio. And without noticing, suddenly there were like 20 ,000 subscribers. And I was like, oh, we should probably, let's see if we can make this even softer. So now just a little while ago, we launched our video version And we have quite a bit of artwork that was created by the artist Laily Piver, who illustrated both of my books. And if you look at the website or anything, that's all of her art.

41:01So she's been gently animating different pieces for us. And it makes really beautiful videos that you can watch either on Spotify or on YouTube.

41:09Kathryn Nicolai:That one is surprising to me because it's like, ideally, you know, you're not staring at blue light, you know, trying to fall asleep. But humans don't do ideal things. yeah yeah i guess you know meet meet them where they are right i'm gonna be there for you exactly you're already there and it is designed it gets dimmer and dimmer and dimmer as you watch it and by the time it is time to say sweet dreams it is off to black be like what's wrong with my screen crank up the brightness okay so uh twice a week for nothing much happens three different podcasts syndicating to youtube creating the stories a month in advance and creating a new audiobook.

41:48Kathryn Nicolai:We should mention that the On the Street Where You Live audiobook is coming out soon. Anything else on the content production side? What else is going on here? All I can really say is that it's going to get even more beautiful to experience in a visual way, that we're going to be able to reach more people. When I started audio podcasts, there wasn't really a genre of sleep podcasts, and now there is. And I feel like I was part of building that. And I think that a visual version, a fully animated visual version, that that will happen and that it will become its own genre there too. I think people are often watching TV to fall asleep, but it's not TV that suits falling asleep.

42:28Like we said, it's not ideal. And I think I'm going to be the person to create that. So the app, the books, watch out, there'll be so much more. Yeah.

42:37Kathryn Nicolai:Even with hundreds of millions and this big membership recurring base that you have, like the total addressable market is still huge. I mean, the majority of people probably have never heard of you and probably still struggle with sleep from time to time. And it's, yeah, there's still a lot left. I still meet people all the time who are like, sleep podcasting is a thing who've never even heard of it. So I think there are tons of people out there who need this. Probably, I don't feel like the world's going to suddenly get softer anytime soon. So I don't see this need going away. Even if insomnia was suddenly cured, I don't think our lives are going to get a lot softer.

43:13I think anxiety is just going to be part of modernity. So I think there's so many people who need it.

43:18Kathryn Nicolai:I think you're probably right there. What surprised you the most along the way? I knew I would help people fall asleep. I didn't know the other ways that I'd be able to help people. I have been there in the dark for people when they've lost a child and they thought, I'll never sleep again. Or I am sometimes the last voice that someone hears in hospice and people have told me, we played you nonstop for three days because we knew your voice was loving and the stories were safe and it gave us all a place to be. And I take that really seriously. I never thought I would have the honor to be there in those moments for people.

43:55And I am so, so glad that I could be, that they found me at the right time and that I could It's often a difficult moment.

44:03Kathryn Nicolai:Yeah, that's true. You have one vision of how this product that you create is going to be used, and then it ends up in a different way. Yeah. Well, what's next? You've got the app launch coming up. You've kind of teased some more video-related projects. What's got you excited for the rest of this year? I'm really excited for people to hear the new audiobook because this is the first time that we'll have other voices telling the stories of The Village of Nothing Much. It's me and eight wonderful voice actors from Broadway, from movies and TV. They're all lovely. They sound amazing. It's a really wonderful book called On the Street Where You Live, and they're longer stories.

44:39It's set over three days in the village of nothing much. It sort of outlines connections and community, the way that people can help each other and be present and enjoy their day-to-day life and the moments of ordinary magic that are woven through it. It's just a lovely bit of healing fiction, and it comes out on July 28th, and it is available for pre-order right now any place you listen to audiobooks.

45:02Kathryn Nicolai:That's right. Grab your copy on the street where you live. You can find it at nothingmuchhappens.com. Be sure to check out the Nothing Much Happens podcast. Plug that into your earbuds while you're falling asleep, and then wake back up with the Side Hustle show in the morning. Let's wrap this thing up with your number one tip for Side Hustle Nation. Stop waiting to feel ready. Ready isn't a feeling, it's a choice. Oh, I like that. Well, Catherine, this has been awesome. Again, nothingmuchhappens.com. A couple of takeaways for me. Number one, obviously solve a problem. The bigger the problem that you can solve, obviously the bigger potential business there is.

45:44Kathryn Nicolai:And like you said, it felt like a niche at the time, but obviously a huge addressable market there. And then think about what is the kind of unique positioning and maybe unfair advantages you're going to bring to it. You're like, well, I had all this yoga and mindfulness experience. And I really loved creating these stories. I could combine those kind of like the intersecting points of the Venn diagram there. And then I love the call to stack up this recurring revenue. Give yourself a raise every month. Positioning it. Look, it's just a dime a day. And with the loyalty and goodwill that you've built up over the years, lots and lots of people willing to pay for it.

46:21Kathryn Nicolai:So super exciting stuff. Again, nothingmuchhappens.com. If you are interested in starting a podcast of your own, make sure to download my podcast starter kit. It is free. You're going to find resources on choosing the right software and equipment, my production process, marketing your show, and of course, all the different ways that podcasts can make money. Just follow the link in the episode description and it'll get you right over there. Big thanks to Catherine for sharing her insight. Big thanks to our sponsors for helping make this content free for everyone. Sidehustlenation.com slash deals is where to go to find all the latest offers from our sponsors in one place.

46:57Kathryn Nicolai:That is it for me. Thank you so much for tuning in. Until next time, let's go out there and make something happen. And I'll catch you in the next edition of the Side Hustle Show. Hustle on.