CEO Close to Trump Resigns After Affair with Alleged Spy

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1:29Tonight, there's a growing scandal engulfing what is perhaps the most important company and the most important industry to the American economy. And it centers on the actions of one of the wealthiest, most powerful CEOs on the planet, who, as you can see here, has developed a close working relationship with the president of the United States and several of his top advisers. Jensen Wang has admitted to having a romantic relationship with a woman outside his marriage, whom U.S. intelligence believes may have been a spy for the Chinese government, funneling cutting-edge American technology to China.

2:04Now, that investigation is ongoing. The FBI is involved. And we're told tonight that there is disagreement among U.S. officials about the strength of the evidence here. But even as this is playing out, Jensen Wang has resigned as the chief executive of NVIDIA, as the company's board prepared to push him out. This is how the president reacted to that news today. Jensen Huang, the video, resigned as CEO. Sad. Your feelings about that? Well, he's a tremendous talent. He did something that nobody else, you know, you have China and these people, they copy, they pirate so much. Here's a chip that's so complex, so brilliant that you can't copy it.

2:45I mean, it's beyond copying because of their level of genius. What he's done is incredible. He built an incredible... NVIDIA is unbelievable. Should he have stepped down? Well, the big thing is, was the woman a spy? And I don't know if that's been determined yet, but if the woman was a spy, yes. If the woman was not a spy, perhaps it would be different. CNN has learned that the FBI has actually been investigating Wong's affair for at least a year. When the Attorney General Todd Blanche was asked about it today, though, he said they've yet to reach any conclusions on that front. When did the Justice Department learn with regard to NVIDIA that Alice Wong might be a suspected Chinese asset?

3:33And there's been concerns raised that the Commerce Department was giving favoritism to NVIDIA and Megaspeed, which is Alice Wong's company. Do you share the concerns that maybe the Commerce Department was impeding the ability to uncover the smuggling network that Alice Wong was involved in? Well, your first question assumes something that I have never said and that I don't know to be true. So you assume that DOJ learns that she is, in fact, a spy. I'm not, nobody said that. I certainly haven't said that. There's no conclusions reached by the Department of Justice or by me or by Director Patel around who she is or is not.

4:12I don't have concerns with the Commerce Department. Now, sources say that CIA officials are not yet convinced that the intelligence collected on Alice Wong so far, including in intercepted communications, proved that she was knowingly funneling information back to Beijing. But there's heavy scrutiny tonight of how the White House has been handling these national security warnings, which certainly were elevated to not only Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick, but also the president himself. And The New York Times is reporting tonight that on Tuesday, the president actually called Jensen Wong and urged him to keep fighting for his job.

4:49That means we know of two phone calls they've had this week, one on Monday, where the president said he called him to check in. and then again on Tuesday, according to the New York Times, to tell him to try to keep his job. And today he said this message called him a legend, talked about what a great job he's done running that company and building it, and then also suggested that the former Apple CEO, Tim Cook, should take over, continuing a pattern of his praise of Jensen Wong, even as the scandal has unfolded. Jensen Wong, do you know if he has a security clearance? I don't know. Do you know the nature of his relationship with the woman who the intelligence officer...

5:28No, I don't know. I just know that he's an outstanding person. And I can't imagine it would be a problem, but we'll certainly find out about it. I think, you know, I think he's an honorable guy. I think he probably has an excuse for it. You have to hear it. He's an amazing guy. I just hope it's... I hope there's no problem. If there is a problem, we'll let you know about it. But I hope there's no problem. I believe he's suffering greatly. When you went to China earlier this year in May, did you know about these alleged ties with the Chinese spy then? No, I didn't hear about it then. But a lot of people have heard about it, and Jensen totally denies that.

6:05I asked him today, because I did speak to him today, just to see if he's feeling all right, how you doing. And I asked him about that. And he said he had absolutely no idea that the person in question was a spy. Well, I'd certainly check with the intelligence people. could have been mentioned. Certainly it didn't make much of an impact on me. The president says it didn't make much of an impact, but we are told at CNN that the secretary of state Marco Rubio personally briefed the president about what was going on. And despite those warnings, Jensen Wong still got on Air Force One with the president and flew with him to Beijing earlier this year.

6:43Now, the president is scheduled to go back to China next week. He's leaving from from Washington on Monday. And ahead of that visit, this is how he's been framing concerns about Chinese espionage, including just today.

7:00Conducting? Well, it could be. And, you know, we also go after them. You know, it's not just a one-sided deal. Somebody said, oh, they're tapping our phones. I said, that's right, we're tapping their phones too. Somebody was saying about China. What about China? We hear they're spying. We spy on them too. That's where it goes. The question was asked to me yesterday, I guess, What about the fact that China's spying in the United States? They said, well, it's one of those things because we spy like hell on them too. And over the last 10 months, the president has made it a point to shower Jensen Wong with praise repeatedly.

7:38Jensen is an incredible guy. He might be here. I don't even know. Is Jensen here? I think he's around. Somebody said he's here. How is he? Pretty good, right? Where is Jensen, by the way? Where is he? He's standing here. Where is he? I just saw that. Thank you very much, Jensen. But what a job you've done. Thank you. We are proud to have you in our country. You know that. Jensen, we are honored to give you the highest award of its kind. Again, anywhere in the world, there is nothing like it. The National Medal of Science, and you truly deserve it. I'd like to welcome a very great gentleman to our midst, Jensen Wong, who's here someplace.

8:17And if we can do with an airport like he does with chips, it'll be the greatest airport anywhere in the world. Now, Jensen also has, Jensen's a very brilliant guy. Now, his relationship with the president clearly has paid off, not only for his company and for China, as the president agreed to let the company sell its chips on the Chinese market in exchange for giving the United States government 25 percent of their profits. That, of course, is what has led to these talks that are happening on Capitol Hill tonight to have him come behind closed doors to testify as soon as next week, potentially.

8:51There's a growing consensus, including among Republicans, also that the Commerce Secretary, Howard Lutnick, has some serious questions to answer as well. Did Lutnick step down? Look, he got my vote of no confidence the day after Liberation Day. Do you have confidence in Lutnick and the job that he's doing as Secretary of Commerce? Well, I want to wait and see if the allegations are true and what he has to say about it. But I'd be concerned. Yeah, the rumors are very concerning. The reporting is very concerning. I would like for Secretary Lutnick, ASAP, to come testify before the Senate Banking Committee because we have a lot of bipartisan questions and concerns about what's happened over the last year that would allow some of these issues to continue to occur.

9:35He's going to be called to testify in front of Congress. And I understand the Secretary of Treasury has some concerns about this. I want to hear from Scott Besson. This is serious as an aneurysm. And we start tonight with my first source, who is the tech expert and journalist, as well as the host of the On and Pivot podcast, Kara Swisher. Kara, if you were a senator and Howard Lutnick was testifying before your committee, what would you ask him about Jensen Wong? wrong. Well, I'd say this is as serious as an aneurysm, obviously. No, I would ask him about what happened and how he got in this relationship and what he knew and what the Trump administration told him about this person, even if there were concerns, and they certainly should investigate it, what he knew and when he knew it, and then what Trump knew and when he knew it.

10:24Because Jensen has had a point of view about China that others do not agree with, and there was a lot of fighting within the administration over it. But if this is even, you know, how did this happen? How did this happen? And what did you know? And when did you know it, I think are the key questions. I mean, it's it's pretty remarkable to see the president's reaction even today when he was speaking with Stephen A. Smith, given, you know, what is at stake here and if all of this is true and this woman was a Chinese spy and asset for them, you know, how Jensen Wong was having a real impact on U.S.

10:58policy here. I mean, the president, I would think, would be more concerned about that, given it's the decisions his administration was making, potentially at the behest of this company and the CEO who's now embroiled in this massive scandal. Yeah, of course. But this is exactly why he would be a fabulous about it. Why? Well, he has to say nothing's going on here and they all have to go toe the line with him, because if there were, he's in real trouble here, because this is serious national security issues. And to pretend that it's not a big deal is kind of ridiculous. It's gaslighting, you know, which is what he does all the time whenever something happens.

11:32Epstein's not a big deal. He was a nobody. This is nothing, whatever. They're trying to throw a doubt in a situation that requires real investigative work, which I don't expect from either Todd Blanche or Kash Patel. And so it's up to Congress to really look at this. And it looks like the Republican senators are at least taking national security issues seriously, as should the Democratic senators and congresspeople. Well, and I also think it raises questions of if this intelligence, you know, Todd Blanchard was saying today that they had not confirmed, they didn't come to a conclusion about her being a Chinese spy, but clearly they thought it was serious enough to take it to the president for Marco Rubio to personally brief him on it.

12:11I mean, they don't do that lightly and he's still got on the plane. No. Right. Exactly. Because Trump overruled it because Trump, you know, he's he's betting his entire administration on this closeness with AI executives. And Jensen was at the top of the heap here of these executives. And one of the things that's important is to continue this falsehood that everything's fine. And it's not fine. This is a very, by itself, even if he was just doing this, you know, lots of CEOs have gotten fired for this reason. Maybe he should or should not. But if there is any question that this person was working for the Chinese government, it has to be very seriously looked at.

12:46What my worry is he'll go to China when he goes to visit Xi and Xi will say, you know, he'll ask you, did you do this? And she will say no. And then he'll go, look, he said he didn't. It wasn't true. He'll do that nonsense. He believes other foreign leaders more than he believes our own intelligence organizations. And then he has, you know, his factotums like Todd Blanche and Kash Patel pretend there's nothing to see here. But I do think Marco Rubio did his job. I think sounds like Scott Besant was concerned, as he should be, because he properly understands the problems around national security.

13:18And we need to investigate this fully. And it will be not up to this administration because they've got real conflicted interests here, but with the Congress and other investigators to look at this globally. Yeah, I was surprised to hear Todd Blanche downplay whether or not she is a spy because no one else in the administration has done that. I mean, NVIDIA hasn't done that. Jensen Wong hasn't done that. I have not seen anyone else cast down Obviously, she's not going to come out and say, yeah, I am a spy. But I do think, Karen, it leaves so many questions. A lot of people looked at NVIDIA as this massive success.

13:51A lot of people bought shares in it. It is. Where does it leave the company tonight with him resigning? You know, I don't know. It'll be fine. Everyone talks about, you know, Lloyd Blankfein, who I think is very funny, used to run Goldman Sachs, said, you know, the graveyards are full of indispensable people. Apple survived the death of Steve Jobs, considered the absolute visionary. And these godlike figures, it'll be fine. NVIDIA is a great company. It will be fine. The stock is down. As long as they keep doing what they do and building a great business and growing the way they're growing, they'll be fine.

14:23It doesn't rely on one person. Look, there's lots of people below him. You think he did this all by himself because he's a magical man in a leather coat? No. It's because he's built a company. It's just he was the only face of it at the same time. And, you know, all these tech leaders think they hung the moon and they didn't. It'll be fine without him. And we'll see where it goes and where he goes. He should probably focus on his family at this point. And I think he's meant much a lot of the reporting is around, you know, him feeling regretful for what he's done. But he shouldn't bite with all this.

14:56He doesn't want to become a pawn in Trump's attempts to whitewash the situation. It should be fully investigated. Kara Swisher, we'll see if he's testifying potentially as soon as next week. Great to have you back here with us on such a big story. Thank you for being here. I also have tonight joining me Anthony Scaramucci, the former Trump White House communications director and founder of Sky Ridge Capital. Bloomberg's White House correspondent Jeff Mason is also here. And Scaramucci, let me start with you because, one, I just want to know your big picture thoughts on what has unfolded in the last 24 hours alone.

15:27But also, I mean, you did work in the White House as the communications director briefly. What do you make of how they're handling this? I will listen there's that's Donald Trump it's like what Kara said that's exactly how he would handle a situation like this even if you were advising him to handle it differently he would never handle it differently but I think there's something else going on that I want to add to what Kara is saying and that is the China hawks in the national security architecture of the United States. The old guard establishment really pushed this thing to the forefront. And it looks like Secretary of State Rubio was alongside of them in the China Hawk category.

16:08So J.D. Vance, who ran as a China Hawk, Caitlin, I guess he's no longer a China Hawk. But I think this is very telling that because of the midterms, it came right after the midterms, the president is weaker, has very low approval ratings. And you're now seeing the establishment assert itself again. which I think is an important part of this story. Yeah. And, you know, just how close he was. I do think that's a good point about the midterms and the timing of what we're hearing and how this is playing out. And Jeff, I mean, obviously at the White House, there's a lot of people. Yes, the president is, you know, standing by, you know, praising Jensen Wong, saying he's a great guy.

16:47There's a lot of people in the West Wing who are pretty alarmed about this, from my understanding. Yeah. Well, there's a lot to be alarmed about. And it's not just a question of national security and the impact that that has on this president, on this country. It's also, in terms of the short term, it's something that's affecting the trip next week. The president's going to Asia. He's going to meet with President Xi. He has made clear over the last several months that he's not interested in having a framework for regulation of AI because he wants the United States to win the AI race against China.

17:19And Jensen Huang was critical to that race and was there with him for his last trip to China. I actually broke the news initially that he wasn't supposed to go on that trip with the first list of CEOs. And then the president didn't like all the coverage that came after that. And so when we - Oh, really? Yeah. Because he joined, he didn't leave with the president from Washington. He got on, he met them in Alaska and they were refueling. He wasn't supposed to be on the trip. And he landed, he came to Alaska. I was on that particular leg. We got off the plane, we were on the tarmac and a couple of the reporters and I saw Jensen Huang walking across the tarmac towards Air Force One.

17:54So he was added to the trip last minute. You have to wonder now, and I don't know the answer to this, but you have to wonder if he wasn't initially on that list in May because of this. That's really interesting. I mean, in terms of that, Anthony Scaramucci, and you're hearing that, because it was weird that he got on the plane on the tarmac in Alaska. Everyone was kind of raising their eyebrows about that. They We thought maybe it's just, you know, he's busy and he had stuff going on. Now that he might be called in front of Congress, I mean, he is going to be called in front of Congress. So is Lutnick and Besant, the Commerce and Treasury secretaries.

18:30What would you be asking them? Well, I would I would like to hear from Secretary of State Rubio, because I think Jeff, look, it's speculation. But I think Jeff is on to something. And so the question would be, did you have him off the flight because you knew that there was an implication here and an alleged spy? And if the answer was yes, then why did the president put him back on the flight? And then, of course, with Secretary of State Lutnik, I think the question is the president himself told you to curb the smuggling. He asked you three times to do it. Why didn't you do that? What is the underlying reason?

19:06And I can tell, you know, I think it's pretty obvious that the national security architecture and the establishment is super upset about this. And I think it's a deeper story, guys. I don't think it's just this one level. What do you mean? Well, there was$4.8 billion of chips that were purchased in Singapore. Where did they go? And then why did NVIDIA take the Singapore line out of the revenues on a going forward base in the quarter? What were they doing there? As we all know on this program, the cover-up is worse than the crime. And so there's ancillary layers here that we've got to get the answers to.

19:48Yeah, I think that's a good point, Jeff, in terms of where this is going. Because also for people watching and realizing the impact this had internally, it wasn't just what Rubio was telling Trump. The Treasury Secretary and the Commerce Secretary got into a fight in the situation room last week over this very issue and these export controls and what was being carried out. Yeah. So that has implications for lots of things, certainly back to the national security piece, which is the crux of the whole conversation, but also the stability of the cabinet, the possibility that there will be changes now in that cabinet.

20:22And certainly there are a lot of people who are looking at Howard Lutnick. And you had some clips from lawmakers earlier. The question will be, does President Trump get concerned about that? The president, according to a source that I spoke to today, has considered parting ways with Howard Lutnick before, but then decided to stay with him. Does that change now? TBD. All right. Jeff Mason, Anthony Scaramucci, Karis Fisher as well. Great to have all three of you here as we continue covering every angle of this story. Also, we're following this story tonight as the president was posting again on Truth Social today about prosecuting those Democrats who put out that video telling U.S.

20:59troops don't obey illegal orders. One of the lawmakers that the president says should be prosecuted will join me right after this.

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22:18As Democrats are ramping up their pledge to investigate the Trump administration, we're seeing the president renew his own calls for Democrats to be investigated and prosecuted. Today, at 10.59 a.m. Eastern Time, after speculating a few moments before about who should replace Jensen Wong and NVIDIA, came this thought from the president. Quote,

22:46Now, the six Democrats the president is talking about are those who served in the military or the U.S. intelligence. community. They put out that joint video last year where they urged service members to refuse illegal orders. At the time, the president was so enraged by it that he suggested they should be put to death for it. A grand jury later rejected the Justice Department's attempt to bring criminal charges against them and nevertheless the president is still renewing those calls tonight for their prosecution and the Attorney General Todd Blanche was actually pressed on this and the fact that a grand jury basically said it wasn't going anywhere in an interview.

23:25Hasn't this already been addressed? Yes. I mean, you're right about the seditious six that was presented to a grand jury and they didn't return an indictment. And you're right that the D.C. grand juries have not returned indictments. I mean, Tish James was indicted. It was thrown out for different reasons. But yes. And again, you said it happens on occasion. It happens in any administration regularly. It's just usually not broadcast. Not like this. My source tonight is one of the six Democratic lawmakers that the president targeted again today, Congressman Jason Crow of Colorado, is an Army combat veteran.

24:02And thank you, sir, for being here. What did you make of the president renewing this today and what you heard from the attorney general there? Caitlin, clearly the president is swirling. He's clearly lashing out after a stunning defeat last week. And this is what he does. Every time he loses, every time he's repudiated, every time Americans say enough is enough, we don't want this anymore, he lashes out at folks. He's tried to indict me twice, as you pointed out. He's threatened to have me executed. He's threatened to have me put in prison multiple times. And every time he does that, it just undermines his own case.

24:40It points out how reckless and lawless he is. So we'll defend ourselves. We'll fight back. You know, he is choosing to fight with the wrong people is what he's doing. We're going to fight back. My lawyers are better than his lawyers. We're raising money for our legal defense. We'll continue to do that. And we'll always just keep on fighting. When you say that, that you're going to fight back and what that's going to look like, what does that look like? Because I think there are some people looking at Democrats retaking power in Washington and saying, how do you balance responding to the president, investigating the administration, but also what gave Democrats that majority, which was this campaign on affordability and the big issues facing Americans?

25:21Yeah, there's actually no balance there because corruption goes hand in hand with affordability. Anti-corruption, this is the first anti-corruption election of my life. And what Americans said very clearly is that they want a government that's efficient. They want a government that's not corrupt and serves their interests. So when you have billions of dollars being siphoned off for a gold ballroom or new private planes or new golf courses or the reflecting pool or an arch that's going to obscure our sacred ground of Arlington Cemetery, that is money. That is theft from Americans' pockets that should go for their health care, for their housing.

25:58They want it to come to an end. And we're going to make it come to an end. So investigations have nothing to do with vengeance, has nothing to do a score settling. And me, of all people, Caitlin, should have every reason to be pissed off. But I don't care about that. All I want to do is stop the corruption. I'm going to get that money back into Americans' pockets. And that is our mandate. Among those who donated to the ballroom was Jensen Wong and his company, NVIDIA. Do you also want to hear from him? I know a lot of senators obviously do. Do you also in the House? Yeah, absolutely. We've requested that Did he come in and testify through the Intelligence Committee?

26:38I sit on the Intelligence Committee and the Armed Services Committee. So we have submitted a formal request. It's my understanding that that's being negotiated right now, his testimony. And we need answers. But, you know, that is, you know, you point out that he also donated to the ballroom. You know, the last two years, we saw CEOs and companies bellying up to the Donald Trump trough, donating to, you know, huge fundraisers at Mar-a-Lago, donating to the ballroom. just to get sole source, no bid contracts, to get government money, as if it would never end, as if this would go on forever and nobody would ever ask questions and come knocking on their door.

27:19Well, it's coming to an end. We're asking the questions, we're knocking on their doors. And if you thought over the last couple of years that you were just going to donate a bunch of money to Donald Trump and the Trump family and then get billions of dollars of taxpayer money in exchange, you have another thing's coming. That's not your money. That money is meant to serve our troops. It's meant to deliver health care. It's meant to serve Americans. And that is our charge. In terms of what this looks like, you said that, you know, holding them accountable and also carrying out those campaign promises go hand in hand as you referenced the corruption.

27:54Do you think Hakeem Jeffries is the right person to lead House Democrats in that effort? Absolutely. I mean, actually, it's a little bit head-scratching to me that after one of the biggest Democratic victories in generations, a victory that Hakeem Jeffries orchestrated, put together, he asked me, he put me in charge, along with other members for recruitment, candidate recruitment. I was the chair of the battleground. I helped build this out per his request that somehow after this amazing victory, people are wondering like, well, you know, what's going to happen next? What's going to happen next is Hakeem Jeffries is going to be the next Speaker of the House.

28:32He's going to continue to lead the charge. We're going to take these districts that we haven't won in before. You know, many of these districts Democrats have never won, ever. We're going to we're going to own these districts by delivering for these folks. The campaign promises, the things we campaigned on, that is our agenda. We're going to end this war in Iran. We're going to end the trade wars. We're going to lower costs. We're going to fix the devastation to our health care system that Donald Trump brought upon Americans. And we're going to clean up corruption. That's the agenda. That's what we're going to do.

29:03And we're going to be very focused on it. Well, I mean, we focus so much on what it's going to look like come January. but there was so much anger this week at your 11 colleagues who missed the vote to show up when it came to the impeachment effort for Secretary Hegseth. Have you spoken to any of those 11 Democrats who missed that vote? I haven't. And I was upset too, right? I mean, you know, Caitlin, that Pete Hegseth, in my view, presents a unique danger to our service members, our military, that I love so much, my brothers and sisters in the military. And Pete Hegseth, every day he sits atop his perch in the Pentagon as a day that our service members don't have the leadership that they deserve.

29:46They don't have the support that they deserve. And they have corrupt, incompetent leadership at the Pentagon. It's got an end. I'm going to relentlessly focus on ending Pete Hegseth's term. We had that opportunity and that just simply can't happen again. Come January, we have to make sure that we're ready to go. And that's the discussion that we've had with our colleagues, and we're going to be ready to go. Democratic Congressman Jason Crow, thank you for taking the time to join us tonight. Thank you. Up next, we are also following breaking news when it comes to leadership in the Senate. That's because Maryland Senator Chris Van Hollen just announced he will be challenging Chuck Schumer for the Democratic leader.

30:26He says the voters are calling for change. Chuck Schumer is also already responding tonight. We'll dig into all of it right after this.

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31:14Well, things just got really interesting on Capitol Hill. Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen of Maryland says he is going to challenge the New York Senator Chuck Schumer for Senate Majority Leader. Yes, I am planning to run for the Senate majority leader. And let me tell you why, because this is not about any one individual, but it is about answering the call of the American people. We saw a huge outburst of democracy on Election Day, red states, blue states, purple states. And it wasn't only a rejection of Donald Trump and his corruption and his wars and his cruelty. It was also about a call for a larger change, to take on a broken economic system that's rigged in favor of the very wealthy against working people, and it's fueled by a corrupt political system.

32:05And the call was really to reject the status quo and to reject business as usual. And to do that, I think we need new leadership. Now, Senator Van Hollen's challenge will set up a clash over the future of not just the Senate, but the Democratic Party. And Senator Schumer responded tonight saying that he welcomes any discussion about the future of our caucus and the important work ahead. But he also says that he has the votes to continue serving as Democratic leader. My political sources are here with me tonight. And Paul Begala, I mean, maybe this isn't a surprise because he seemed to be leaving the door open to this over the weekend.

32:44And Chuck Schumer's been saying all week, though, I have the votes. I'm not worried about this. What do you think is possible here? Well, first, only the Democratic Party could pull this off, right? You and I are college football fanatics. Did the University of Alabama fire Nick Saban after he won a national championship? Right. Schumer just helped deliver his party the greatest victory they've had in 52 years. And people and I like Chris Van Hollen. I like him a lot. But people like Senator Van Hollen are saying, let's fire him. You just talked to Jason Crowe, who's a pal of mine. I love Jason.

33:16He ran recruitment, as he said, for the House and recruited great candidates. Chuck Schumer personally ran the recruitment for the Democrats. He recruited Sherrod Brown in Ohio. He recruited Roy Cooper in North Carolina. He recruited Mary Peltola in Alabama. He recruited in Alaska, rather. And he recruited Scott Colombe in Mississippi. So why why fire him? I mean, I think I think contests are healthy, but I don't see this going anywhere. I don't know why you'd fire the guy. Well, I'm glad you asked that because we actually asked Abdul El-Sayed that, the senator-elect from Michigan, this week because he made pretty clear he thought Chris Van Hollen would be a good leader.

33:52He did not think that Schumer is the right person to lead. He praised him, but he doesn't believe he's the one who should lead the caucus going forward. And I asked him why, given those victories, and this is what he told me. I mean, this is somebody who's made his bones in both the Senate, but then also in Congress and also in his state legislature. He is a legislator's legislator, extremely well respected by different groups in the Democratic caucus and somebody I think would just be an incredible leader for the Senate, which is why way back in the summer I was talking about why I thought he'd be the right choice.

34:30Have you talked to him directly about this since you became a senator-elect last week? Well, to tell him that I thought he'd be a great choice. You know, obviously he's heard me say it, and in person I told him I just think he'd be a refreshing choice. I mean, this could be, Malika, a pretty fascinating thing playing out here in terms of where this goes with the newer faces and some of the old guard, Bernie Sanders and company, pushing for new leadership here. I imagine maybe El Syed, maybe he kind of has a problem with Schumer's lack of support during the election here. Yeah, he wanted Haley Stevens to win that primary.

35:08Yes, he wanted Haley Stevens. This will be a fight in the party because it isn't necessarily a huge fight about ideals. There was a problem with Schumer before November 3rd of last week. And I think that what you're seeing now with some of the younger members, and they want fresh blood. You know, they want a fighter. And there was a lot of criticism from Chuck Schumer that he didn't fight enough against Donald Trump. So they're going to have to figure out. I'm surprised you didn't see Cory Booker jump in there. I thought that he would have jumped in there. But I do think that this is a fight that the Democratic Party needs because those seats that they got, those aren't permanent seats.

35:48And so they need to figure out a way to actually galvanize the party and deal with the base who wants a fight and a lot of progressive wins. Yeah, well, I think in terms of that and where this is going to look, I mean, you talk about Scott Colombe. We had talked to him before he won and became senator-elect about this. And he, on Chuck Schumer specifically, actually didn't have a pretty emphatic endorsement of him because he did not get a lot of funding initially in this race. He felt like his race was overlooked, Paul, at the beginning of this. In terms of what Schumer could offer, do you think there's concessions he could give to people like Abdul El-Sayed, Bernie Sanders, Alyssa Slotkin, others in terms of where this goes?

36:33Oh, I think Schumer has the votes and he thinks he has the votes. The person he needs to be listened to is Scott Colombe. No disrespect to those other folks. OK, but Scott just won for the first time in decades as a Democrat, the first African-American to win in Mississippi over a century. Scott said in his interview with you, which I saw, which I loved, he not only said, why is New York City getting the House majority, the House Speaker, the Senate majority, and the president, right? You could sort of walk from one guy's house to the other. Chuck needs to listen to Scott, especially what he said about rural America, rural Mississippi.

37:07This is the point Malik is making. The Democratic majority was not made in the cobalt, bluest, crypto-socialist precincts, right? It was made in Kansas and Mississippi and North Carolina and South Carolina and my beloved Texas. So he does need to listen, especially to his rural members and those majority makers. If it's me, I'm much more interested in what those members say than somebody. And I like Abdul. He improved on Kamala's performance by about nine points. Okay, Scott improved by like 30. Tallarico improved by like 25. Hamilton by like 25. So that's who I want to know is what do my majority makers think?

37:50You know, it's fascinating that this is about to play out, Malik, because Democrats are fighting over who should be the next majority leader. And to Paul's point there, they just had a huge victory. Republicans are keeping John Thune as their leader, despite having those historic losses. Do Republicans in the Senate, are they worried about a Van Hollen leadership? I mean, they fought with him and tussled with him when he went down to El Salvador over the Abrego Garcia deportation. We forgot that that just really happened. This is the same guy. I do think that we did the right thing in keeping Thune.

38:24There is a lot of pushback. People now trying to blame John Thune for our loss when at the end of the day, most people, if we're honest, we realize that the election was lost because Donald Trump and his policies were unpopular. We know that. Now, it's a bit difficult for us to say that because, you know, it's not popular. You're not supposed to say that on television. But the issue isn't with John Thune. John Thune has shown over and over again that he knows how Washington works. And at the end of the day, there weren't a lot of people. Yes, there were a couple, but there weren't a lot of people really wanting that job because it will be a thankless job in the minority.

39:01Yeah, and he would probably agree with that. Malik Abdul, Paul Balgala. Great to have both of you here tonight. Up next, the attorney general today was pressed on his views of his relationship with the president as the nation's chief law enforcement officer. We're going to talk to Ellie Honig about all of that right after this.

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40:30Take a listen to what Attorney General Todd Blanche had to say today when it comes to independence from the White House. I want to talk about the the independence question. You've said I work for President Trump and that it's a misperception that the DOJ is independent of the president. So if it's a sort of typical relationship with a boss, right, I presume that means whenever he calls for someone to be investigated or prosecuted, ultimately you've got to do it, right? No, I don't think that's the case at all with the boss, with any boss, right? Just because my job is if I'm functioning as his counselor, which I do function as his counselor, there's a statute that directs me to do that.

41:15But also when I'm functioning as the attorney general of the United States, it's my job to provide counsel to him. And so absolutely not. Just because I'm not independent in the words that folks use, because again, the Constitution doesn't, there's no word in the Constitution that says there's a fourth branch. And Ellie Honig, a former state and federal prosecutor, is here. Ellie, your thoughts on that answer there? Well, Caitlin, technically, Todd Blanch is correct. The U.S. Constitution does not say DOJ shall be independent from politics or the president. However, the way that Todd Blanch has chosen to run his Justice Department as a non-independent political arm of the president is a break in the chain of history.

42:01You can go back to Watergate, you can go back before Watergate, and every AG, Republican and Democratic appointee alike, has worked hard to protect DOJ from politics and from the president. And that's not just because of high-minded academic theory, that's because the Justice Department is the only civilian agency in our federal government that has the awe-inspiring power to strip someone of their liberty, to literally lock someone up behind bars. and Blanche has chosen to give that away. And by the way, this strategy of carrying out the president's personal gripes and political gripes has failed at every turn.

42:37Every one of these political cases from Letitia James to Cassidy Hutchinson to Jim Comey to Jerome Powell to Mark Kelly, Alyssa Slotkin, all of them have been rejected by judges, juries, or grand jury. So if this is going to be Todd's legacy, Todd Blanche's legacy, then that's of his own choosing. Well, to be fair, some of those happened under Pam Bondi when she was the AG. But you know, Ellie, when you - When Todd was deputy, yeah. Yeah, when he was the deputy. But in the interview, he was asked by Dan Abrams about these attempts to go after people when he, as Trump calls them, the seditious six.

43:09We were talking to Jason Crow earlier and how they don't go anywhere, to your point. And Blanche was kind of arguing that that is a typical kind of case here, that there's a lot of no true bills that happen under administrations, under attorneys general. Is that accurate based on your reading of how the Justice Department has worked before? Blanche's claim that these rejections by grand juries, as we call them, no true bills, are common, which he said today to Dan Abrams. That is false. Todd Blanche knows that is false. And I know that Todd Blanche knows that is false because Todd Blanche and I were both prosecutors together in the 2000s for several years at the same time in the same building, the Southern District of New York.

43:51We had about 150 or so prosecutors at a time. we handled thousands of cases collectively. Maybe the entire office would have one or two no true bills, rejections by a grand jury in a year. That's how rare it was. In fact, if somebody got a no true bill, we'd make fun of them for the next three years because that's the culture of the place. And because it's so unusual to do that and definitely not in a major case, like an attempt to indict US senators and US representatives. So Blanche is losing these cases and his attempt to say this is just business as usual, it's just flat out wrong and he knows it's wrong.

44:26What are you going to be watching as Democrats take over in terms of how the administration responds to those Democrats on Capitol Hill? I expect the administration to fight every subpoena that comes out of the Democratic Congress. They're entitled to put up those fights and I will look be looking for executive privilege to come very much back in the four. I think every subpoena that comes out to the administration, DOJ representing members of the administration is going to say, well, that's privilege. That's a sensitive internal communication. Each of those cases is going to go to the court and be adjudicated on its own merits.

45:01But I think it's really important to note today, Todd Blanche in that interview backed off his statement that he's been making all week that Will Scharf, the White House counsel has been making that the statements made by Robert Garcia and other people that they're going to use their subpoena power. Blanche and Will Scharf had been saying all week that's potentially blatantly criminal. To quote Will Scharf, that could be a crime. To quote Todd Blanche, today in that interview, Blanche retreated and he acknowledged that the words, the things that Democrats have been saying, Robert Garcia, Alyssa Slotkin and others, are not on their own crimes.

45:32I've been telling you that all week and it's good to see Blanche back off. He was wrong and just words like that are protected First Amendment political speech. They're not crimes. He's got to back off. he's wrong. Ellie Honig, you're never wrong. Great to have you. Once in a while. Thanks, Dave. Up next, it is time for Source Code. This one's personal to me. It's 1040. We'll be right

46:08Tonight's source code is 1040 AM. That's because that's when Microsoft confirmed it was quote, investigating reports of users experiencing issues. And trust me, it wasn't just me. Microsoft's tech outrage has quickly spread to a lot of companies, restaurants, schools, universities. Yes, all of us right here at CNN have gone without email for going on about 10 hours, over 10 hours now. According to Down Detector, users are reporting, users have reported on Microsoft's outage. It actually has reached 74 different countries and territories all within about an hour on its own site. Of course, some people might be hoping it doesn't come back on.

46:49They have a three-day weekend. We here at CNN are hoping we will be back on email. quite soon. Thanks so much for joining us. CNN Newsnight starts now.

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