Trump Fires White House Press Secretary After Five Days

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1:03Tonight, behind the scenes of how President Trump decided to fire his press secretary after just five days on the job, telling allies and advisors she, quote, wasn't ready for prime time. I'm Jim Sciutto, in for Caitlin Collins, and this is The Source.

1:36As we come on the air, President Trump is once again searching for a new White House press secretary. In the middle of an election season that could very well shape his remaining time in office, the remarkably short tenure of Katie Zachariah provides a window into how this president is operating. Case in point, this was Zachariah's message to reporters as she walked into the White House just this morning. Can I get a couple questions for us? I'm not taking any questions, but I want to let you know I'm looking forward to working with all of you so much. Please get my number, reach out to me, call me, text me, email me.

2:11I would love to work with all of you, and I'm so excited to be working with President Trump and on behalf of the American people. So thank you very much. Well, less than just six hours later, she was out of a job. The president offered this assessment of exactly how it went down. And I said to Katie just two minutes ago, I said, Katie, you know, you don't have to do this if you don't want. She said, this is a lot tougher. I said, welcome to the world of Trump. She's a nice person, a great person. And she's been treated roughly. You know, I said, do you want to really live like this? I don't think they'll ever ease up.

2:48And, you know, Caroline did a very good job. I think Katie maybe would do. But Katie's off to a start that the news has been so nasty to her. I've never seen anything like it, actually. She's reconsidering? And I said to her, honestly, if I were you, I'd reconsider. You'd think about it, but I would reconsider. I just want her to be happy. Look, she has suffered. Her official tenure of less than five days is the shortest in history for anybody to hold one of the highest profile jobs in any administration. a tenure embodied by her first and final press briefing, which lasted less than 15 minutes, and where she took only three questions.

3:33To the question on, the president will be back on Thursday, and that's what I will answer. I'll leave it there. He will answer those questions out in Marine Corps. Does she have a question about Diesel? Will Diesel come into the state? Well, as Caitlin's reporting tonight, sources say the president was embarrassed by coverage of that briefing, and there were few people around him willing to defend her performance. And the main reason he rushed to select her was his irritation with how long it was taking to replace Caroline Levitt, because he wanted more people on television defending him. You can see just how rushed this was by looking at the calendar here from the president's surprise announcement that he had picked her to starting her job at the White House, to those 15 minutes at the podium, two days of unsuccessful damage control, and finally, today's dismissal.

4:28A chaotic and breakneck pace indicative of how this president handled the whole hiring process, and one that multiple White House officials and advisors say included no one but the president himself vetting her. So you go from you go from Friday at the pumpkin patch to Monday morning at the podium, basically. Well, Wednesday at the pumpkin patch. Yeah. Wednesday phone call, Thursday flight, Friday meeting, Saturday flight, Sunday flight, Monday, Columbus State Federal Holiday, start work. Wants a brief Tuesday morning. The president's reliance on gut instinct rather than through preparation was evident when questions surfaced almost immediately about her resume.

5:14Where did she pass the bar exam? She said she's an attorney. Where did she pass the bar exam? Which date? Where did she tell us? Where did she pass the bar exam? While the president cited her, quote, unblemished record of support and her regular television appearances as her primary qualifications, basic questions about her background never came up. Well, I wasn't hiring Mr. Floyd. I was hiring you in French. Those questions weren't asked. I'm being hired as White House press secretary and not White House counsel. President Trump now has just 18 days left in a fight for Republicans to keep control of Congress, and that depends largely on the messaging coming out of this White House at a time when the president is once again without one of his primary messengers.

6:07My sources tonight are CNN chief media analyst Brian Stelter, as well as CNN political commentator Maria Cardona and CNN senior political commentator Scott Jennings. Good to have you all here on a Friday evening. Brian, I want to start with you. Caitlin's reporting is that when Zachariah failed to defend him on Hannity, the president knew that she had to go. Just for our viewers, I want to play a little bit of her two Fox interviews in just the last 24 hours. Why get into this long, drawn-out definition between the difference between a lawyer and an attorney? Because I don't think most people see much of a distinction.

6:40Why didn't you just say, I never practiced law? Well, Sean, when I moved back from the United States, I didn't retake the bar. I had four kids in six years. It was never my intent to go into the practice of law. Do you think you still have the confidence of the president? I'm standing here, and I was able to travel with him through all of the midterm convention, or excuse me, the midterm rallies. President, of course, watches a lot of Fox News. Brian, how pivotal were those interviews? Yeah, those Fox interviews really foreshadowed her downfall and may have helped it to happen. It seemed like Hannity was doing what he so often does, protecting the president from himself, doing the vetting that Trump didn't bother to do last week.

7:25Now, a source close to Trump tells me tonight he genuinely likes Zachariah personally. He's a big fan of her. That is the truth. But the president was not pleased with the Hannity appearance and the morning show visit was not much better. But ultimately, this is not about Katie Zachariah. It's about the president's hiring practices. And it seems to me his Fox friends are protecting him a little bit by pushing it and making it about her. Fox has been avoiding showing the president's midterm rallies lately, perhaps believing that he's not the own, not his own best messenger or not the GOP's best messenger ahead of the midterm elections.

7:59The same thing has happened in the last 24 hours. The view from many in the GOP and certainly inside Fox was that Zachariah was not the best messenger for President Trump. And so she was gently or not so gently pushed out with the help of Trump's Fox friends. So, Scott, I mean, if the president chooses someone without a lot of background, right, and so close to a pivotal election? I mean, is this ultimately on him and his vetting and his decision-making? Well, everything that happens in the White House is up to the president ultimately. And it's his prerogative on who to hire for this job or the cabinet or anything else, anybody else that reports directly to him.

8:37My advice to him would just be to get the most qualified person you can get with the most experience, somebody who can stand behind that podium with credibility and not just carry your message, but also handle the incoming that is sure to come. If the Republicans don't do well in the midterms, you all can all imagine the sort of hostile environment they're gonna face in Washington for the next couple of years. And that person, along with a couple of key members of Congress, are gonna be on television every single day sort of dealing with that onslaught. So, I mean, there's the short-term issue of political messenger, but then there's the next couple of years as he fights for his own legacy and fights to leave a mark as he exits the presidency, that person's going to be right in the middle of it.

9:18So I think you want somebody with as much experience and maybe who's been around D.C. a little bit and has TV experience and so on and so forth. So there's a lot of things that go into it and maybe a little management experience because that office does have a pretty big staff and it does require a little bit of management, as Brian and Maria know. So Scott, given that your name was on the shortlist prior, were you making a pitch for yourself just then? Oh, me? No. I wouldn't negotiate my personnel prospects with you here on television, but I do have a view about how to staff government positions.

9:53And my view is very simple. Find the most experienced, competent person that you can find because you deserve it. You're the president of the United States. You're the most powerful person in the world. You're the leader of the free world. and everybody who speaks on your behalf has to speak with credibility and authority when they stand up behind that podium because they're speaking to the whole world. And the things you say at that podium can move markets and move mountains. And so that person's very, very pivotal. A lot of people you hire never see the light of day again, but that person is in the spotlight every single day.

10:22Well, as you know, the president watches some CNN as well. So perhaps he was listening to you there, Scott. Maria, your review of this decision and the decision making. So Scott's right. But the problem with what Scott said is that the president's definition of having qualifications is very different from what Scott may think or me or others who really understand what that job needs. I was press secretary for three cabinet press secretaries under the Clinton administration. You know, not the White House podium, but I briefed national, international media all around the world, it is a tough job.

10:57You have to be prepared. You have to study. You have to know the issues. You have to understand what it is that you are representing when you are at that podium. She would be representing the president of the United States and the United States government itself. Now, I actually feel bad for her because I do think that Trump threw her into this because he was very confused about what that qualification meant. Yeah, listen, no one wants to pile on him. This is highly personal. It's very public. Washington can be difficult and brutal and social media, etc. Brian, the president, though he made this decision, he blamed the media for being tough on her.

11:38Have a listen. Katie's been treated very badly by the media, very, very badly, very unfairly, I think. Generally, the media has been very rough. She was on Sean Hannity last night, and Sean was a little bit tough. And she did. I saw Fox and Friends this morning. They were a little tough. She's been treated, I would say, pretty nastily. I think she's been really, really treated very unfairly. Are you saying you're talking about firing her or replacing her? We're talking about I want her to have a good life. I don't want to have a life like she's led in the last three days. She is being brutalized by the media.

12:18I think very unfairly, but she's been brutalized by the media. Not the first time we've heard a review like that, Brian, but what was your reaction to hearing that? Well, most of the criticism, the most significant criticism, was coming from the right. It was coming from conservative commentators, from Fox hosts, from Trump-aligned figures, you know, who wanted the president to have an effective spokesperson out there. I think everybody who watched Tuesday's briefing, everybody knew it was cringeworthy. Everybody knew it was awkward. And SNL was coming up tomorrow night. Now she'll avoid that, or at least there'll be a resolution before she's parodied by SNL.

12:53But seriously, I think that timeline did have something to do with this. The president's cleaned this up now before he's traveling this weekend. And I want to recognize all of my neighbors, they don't care who the press secretary is tonight. They do desperately care about the economy. and all of this is a sideshow from the gas prices and those other issues. But the president deserves to have a messenger who can talk about those topics on his behalf. And right now, that's what he's sorely lacking inside the White House. So, Scott, to lack that voice so close to a midterm election, does that concern you?

13:27Should it concern the president? Should it concern Republicans? Well, I think the only thing that should concern the president is finding the right person for this job and any other job that he needs to fill. He needs to finish out this administration strong. No matter what happens in the November midterm, he's got two years left and that's a lot of time. And I know he has views about what he wants his legacy to be and has some policy ideas that he'd like to implement. You just need the strongest possible team that you can find. I think his chief of staff is one of the strongest possible chiefs of staff you could have.

13:55They just hired a new legislative director who's very well regarded on Capitol Hill. So if I were in his shoes, I would just be thinking, speed here is less important to me than getting the person who best fits the job, who has the most qualifications. Also, you know, he speaks pretty well on his own behalf. He's got the vice president. He's got Marco Rubio. You know, there are other people in the White House. Stephen Miller, I think, does a great job as well. So there are a lot of people around him that can actually go out and talk on his behalf and authoritatively about how he feels about issues.

14:25So it's not like they're without credible messengers. It's just that the person who stands at that podium happens to be vacant. But he's not totally without communications weapons at the moment. I'm going to give Maria the final word, but Scott, I do want to press you here. Are you interested in the job still? I haven't spoken to anybody about it tonight or today. In fact, I learned about it. I was on my radio show today when I heard about it. And I actually took the president's comments a few seconds after he made them and played them on the show. And I was finding out about the whole thing, as you all were as well.

14:54And the only person I've spoken about it today with is right now, with you. So these are my views at the moment. We'll see if the president was watching. Perhaps Democratic president right now who didn't have a press secretary 18 days to a crucial midterm election. What would you tell that president? I would tell that president that what that president deserves is somebody that doesn't just support him, which is what we know Trump's major qualification is. He said it. He hired her because she had unblemished support of him on Fox News. That's the only thing he cares about. A Democratic president would care about somebody who knows the issues, who can push his agenda, who can talk about what he has done for the American people and why he and his party deserve to be reelected.

15:38And the reason why Trump was so desperate to have her out there is because he sees the polls. He sees what voters are saying. He sees that gas prices are just unacceptable. The Iran war is unacceptable. And he hated hearing that, and he wanted somebody to counter. She was not prepared to do that. We'll see how quickly he moves now. Brian, Maria Scott, appreciate you joining us on Friday. And coming up next, it wasn't me. That's what President Trump is saying tonight as questions swirl over the crucial slowing down of Starlink, a critical satellite service in Ukraine's ongoing defense against the Russian invasion.

16:14My congressional source joins me next.

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17:13percent return on investment over three years and pays for itself in just three months. Learn why over 16 ,000 of the fastest growing companies use Vanta at Vanta.com. Tonight, there are mounting concerns over Ukraine's access to Elon Musk's Starlink satellite service and whether there were orders to disrupt that critical technology used by Ukrainian forces in defending themselves against Russia's invasion. Reuters reported last night that in order to limit Star Shield, which is the military-grade version of Starlink, came directly from inside the White House, which President Trump today denied.

17:54President Trump, why did you guys slow down the Starlink or the Star Shield for Ukraine? I didn't do that. No, we didn't do that at all. In fact, I don't know where it is. I don't even think it was slowed down. We didn't slow it down at all. And I think it's probably functioning from what I understand. Well, I don't know if it was anybody because it wasn't me. And I don't think it was Elon. And from what I understand, it's the same as it's always been. Well, Ukrainians said quite clearly it was not the same. And today, Ukrainian President Vladimir Zelenskyy said that while services are improving, they're not yet fully restored.

18:29The outage impaired the Ukrainian military's ability to detect Russia's incoming missiles and drones and intercept them. And the disruptions have been felt deeply on the front lines where Ukrainian forces rely on the service to communicate and to fly drones to deliver food and water to troops. Earlier today, Zelensky took a veiled swipe at Trump while meeting with leaders from the European Union. Take a listen first, what the president said about him and how Zelensky responded. Zelensky is not a good guy for us to deal with. I think I find Zelensky to be more difficult to deal with than Putin.

19:06I'm so thankful that we have such huge support from EU Council Commission and leaders, real leaders, so that they stay with us from the very beginning of this war. Real leaders, he said. My source tonight is Democratic Congressman Dan Goldman of New York. Congressman, thanks so much for taking the time tonight. Thanks for having me, Jim. All right. So the president says neither he nor Musk had anything to do with Ukraine's Star Shield disruptions. Knowing what we know and you know about how this White House operates and who calls the shots, is that credible? Jim, let's take a step back. Actually, let's take 10 years back.

19:50in 2016 when Robert Mueller in very definitive and lengthy fashion determined that Donald Trump knew about Russian interference in the election to benefit him and welcomed it. Two years later, as you well know, in Helsinki, Donald Trump preferred to believe Vladimir Putin over his own intelligence community, even though the bipartisan Senate Intelligence Committee and the entire intelligence community had determined that Russia did interfere in that election. The list goes on and on over the last 10 years, where for some reason that is just inexplicable and completely irrational and unreasonable, Donald Trump continues to kiss the butt of Vladimir Putin.

20:40And it's somewhat bewildering. You could make an argument, oh, well, he had business opportunities there, or he owes Putin because of the 2016 election, or in this case, when he all of a sudden lifts sanctions on diesel from Russia three weeks before the election, and about three weeks or four weeks after he signed a bill to increase sanctions on Russia, he is coming to the aid of Vladimir Putin for something. Could it be interference in this upcoming election? We don't know. But there is absolutely no doubt in my mind and anyone who's been paying attention that Donald Trump ordered Elon Musk to pause or halt Starshield from helping Ukraine because he has made the decision that his only path is to lie yet again in fleas with Vladimir Putin.

21:40I was in touch with Ukrainian officials throughout the week. And in addition to the Star Shield slowdown, they shared suspicions that the U.S. withheld ballistic missile early warnings, which are based on U.S. intelligence, in addition to slowing down Star Shield. In other words, they say the U.S. did, in effect, suspend intelligence sharing with Ukraine already. And they say that you could count lives lost as a result of the lack of those missile warnings. Is that a reasonable conclusion for them to come to? Of course, Donald Trump's supporting Putin and Russia by lifting sanctions on diesel oil.

22:17Now, he may be trying to do that because he understands that Republicans are about to get absolutely blown out in the election, in large part because diesel and gas prices are so high. And so he thinks he can miraculously change the market by allowing Russia to export diesel. That fuels their military operation. And let's not forget, this is an illegal intrusion into a democratic country that Congress, in a very bipartisan and very persuasive way, led by Lindsey Graham in many respects, has been trying to clamp down against Russia in support of Ukraine. And for some reason, Donald Trump refuses to do that.

23:03And now he's trying to save his own butt. He's trying to save the Republicans. But more importantly, it seems he's using this as an excuse to save Vladimir Putin and to yet again, eight years after the first impeachment, to try to hurt Vladimir Zelensky and Ukraine. So, as you know, majority of Republicans, even in Congress, but large majority of Democrats, they support Ukraine. Yet despite that, the president's not interested and U.S. support has almost been zeroed out. So I spoke just yesterday to a 23-year-old resident of Ukraine. And here's what she told me. And I want to ask you your thoughts on the other side.

23:46It's been five years and it's a full-scale war and currently it feels like the world is forgetting about us. Yeah, sometimes it feels like we are abandoned. She feels abandoned and she's not alone. And I wonder, is she wrong? Well, Katarina, I can tell you, you are not abandoned by the United States Congress. You are not abandoned by the European Union. You are being abandoned by one person and one person only, and that is Donald Trump. And the American people need to understand that Donald Trump has consistently and now outrageously chosen to support Vladimir Putin all along in whatever way he could get away with, even against his own party because of some yet to be determined reason that we can speculate about, but it just doesn't add up.

24:47Ukraine is a democratic ally. Russia is a awful dictatorship that is helping Iran, that is our adversary and our enemy. And yet Vladimir Putin has Donald Trump wrapped around his finger. And it is inexplicable and inexcusable. And Republicans need to stand up and make it very clear, as some have, Jim, and in a rare instance on this issue, you know, Republicans in Congress are so afraid of standing up to Donald Trump. But on this issue, they actually have, because it is so central to who we are as a democracy, as the United States of America, defending our Democratic allies against illegal intrusions and invasions by a dictator in Russia.

25:38I mean, this is good versus evil. And Donald Trump has chosen the side of evil and continue to tax to kill civilians every day. I just wonder, even though you have Republicans and Democrats in Congress willing to call out the president, you had several who did it in quite strong terms this week, as you know, and you had several Republicans and Democrats demanding that the DOD's inspector general now investigate the slowdown to Star Shield. But I just wonder what the teeth are in those steps, right? Because right now, Democrats are just outnumbered in both houses of Congress. And even if they were to win back the House and the Senate, they're not going to get a veto-proof majority.

26:15So does Congress, does Congress have the power to turn U.S.-Ukraine policy around against the president? Absolutely. When the Democrats are in the majority in both houses, as it increasingly looks like it will happen, they will be able to bring to the floor legislation that requires Donald Trump to do any number of things. And on Ukraine, it will be veto proof. So Donald Trump will be caught in a position where either he is exposed for completely irrationally and inexplicably supporting Vladimir Putin and then gets overridden by Congress, or he's going to have to go along with it and he's going to have to change his tune.

27:01And that's why it's so important for people to understand why the majority matters in Congress, in the Senate, is that if Democrats have control of the floor, Democrats can put whatever legislation they want. Republicans have controlled the floor for the last two years in both houses, and they have avoided doing anything that undermines or contradicts Donald Trump. That will end after Democrats take the majority in both houses on November 3rd, and only with the American people recognizing how important that is. That took steps like discharge petitions just to get things to the floor, where there were clear majorities.

27:42Congressman Dan Goldman, appreciate you joining. Thanks, Jim. Coming up next, a Washington Post photographer was hospitalized after Israeli settlers attacked her while she was just doing her job. Earlier, I spoke to an eyewitness who helped her to her safety. We'll have the details next.

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28:37Tonight, the Washington Post is reporting that one of its photographers has been hospitalized after Israeli settlers attacked her and a group of Palestinians in the occupied West Bank today during the annual olive harvest. Veteran photojournalist Heidi Levine was wearing a protective vest clearly marked with press when dozens of masked settlers began running towards her. You can see in this video the moment Levine was pushed to the ground and then beaten by settlers who stole her cameras. Here's how she described the attack. I was brutally attacked by, I mean, we saw in the distance, in the hilltop, I would say at least 50 masked men.

29:24I had a 100 to 500 millimeter lens that you could see them masked with slingshots. And when they came running down, I was attacked, pushed to the ground. And luckily, I had my black jacket and my helmet. Otherwise, I probably wouldn't even be here because they just kept kicking me and kicking me like probably 50 times. My White House insiders are here now. The Atlantics, Missy Ryan and CNN's political and national security analyst David Sanger, who also happens to work for The New York Times. Missy, just a short time ago, I spoke with an eyewitness who saw this all play out and actually helped rescue Levine.

30:16I want to play for you what he told me and get your reaction on the other side. Machine gun fire from where? You said soldiers came, but you had said earlier that they were standing by? Or are you saying they were participating? No, sorry. So the initial machine gun fire was the settlers. Later, after the attack on Heidi, the soldiers, rather than going after the settlers who had just launched this vicious attack, went into the village and started firing their guns and shot a 54-year-old Palestinian man who works for the village municipality in the leg. The bullet shattered his femur. He's now in the hospital, going to need to have a major surgery tomorrow.

30:59So during the attack on Heidi and during that part of the attack, it was the settlers firing their machine guns. Later, it was the soldiers. Democratic Congressman Jamie Raskin called this, quote, a moment of reckoning for the world, noting that Trump lifted President Biden's sanctions on violent Israeli settlers. I just wonder, is there a limit, Missy Ryan, to what this president will tolerate of Israeli actions in the West Bank? Well, that certainly is a question that we've all been asking ourselves in the diplomatic press corps and those who cover the conflict. There have been some signs that the Trump administration has been willing to signal displeasure in certain incidents that relate specifically to U.S.

31:40citizens in the West Bank. But frankly, the tripwire is a lot farther away than we saw during the Biden administration that you would think at this moment where there's been this unprecedented surge in settler violence, not just against journalists. This is not the first incident against the press. There was an NBC crew that was attacked a few months ago. And I will just say, I worked with Heidi in Ukraine. I worked with Heidi in Israel. There are a few photojournalists who are more experienced and more dedicated than Heidi. And just to see what happened to her is, I think, really a sign of how bad things are and what the stakes are for not getting that story out to the world.

32:20No question. And of course, it's the Palestinians. They were there taking part in the annual olive harvest on lands that they have ties to. David, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, once again, and he's done this to me, I'm sure he's done it to you, downplayed the settler violence in the West Bank. And his statement said, quote, serious questions remain about this attack. And he called into question even the accounts we're hearing from eyewitnesses. 11 days to an Israeli election. I mean, is there a sign when you look at the Israeli voting public that this goes beyond the limit for them?

32:57Well, we're about to find out, Jim. But the fact of the matter is that the degree of impunity that the settlers seem to have in doing these attacks, far greater attacks than we've seen before on Western press, on Israeli press, but on so many others, and then considerable evidence that the Israeli defense forces, when called have not done very much in many of these cases. That's really the remarkable part of all of this. And we have seen Mike Huckabee, the American ambassador, begin to call some of this out. But can you imagine if this had been done in reverse, say that this kind of attack had happened for Palestinians against Israeli defense forces there?

33:48I think you would be hearing something very different from the prime minister. No question. Missy, I do want to ask you about your new reporting in The Atlantic outlining a big story in this country, and that is the Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth's failed plan to live stream the execution of Nidal Hassan. What are your sources telling you about exactly how he crossed the line with the president, how this was a step too far for Trump? Yeah, as someone who's covered Pete Hegseth from the moment and he stepped into the Pentagon. This is one of the more sort of inexplicable and frankly grotesque episodes that we've seen.

34:24I have not spoken with anybody in the military who objects to the execution of Didal Hassan. As everyone will recall, he killed 13 people. In an organization like the US military, fratricide is kind of the most despicable act that one can imagine. It was an awful attack. At the same time, the idea that you would propagandize this and you would put it out in public view in a way that, frankly, demeans the solemnity of what those people died for and allow it to be put forward for jihadist propaganda. And the opposition was immediate. What we were told is that President Trump received phone calls from confidants, from outside advisors, from lawmakers immediately over the course of last weekend.

35:17And that's where you saw the sort of some equivocation on the part of the president in response when reporters were asking, you know, what do you think of this? He said, on Sunday, I know the military wants to do it, but I'm going to make a decision. And it's interesting because Pete Hegseth, one of the main reasons he was selected by President Trump is because he presents well on TV. He's an effective communicator. He looks the part, he has the experience, and he's this full-throated partisan warrior, and that has worked for him really well. It has kept him in the president's good graces because he will again and again go on the attack, and that is, I think, one of the strong suits and what has made him an effective member of Trump's cabinet, at least in the president's view.

36:01But in this case, that really led him astray. And one of the things that I am going to be watching for in coming days is whether or not this changes his standing with the president. Trump has been a resolute supporter of Hegseth in recent months, despite all the problems in Iran, despite the criticism of the boat strikes in the Caribbean. But this is something where, because it is something that kind of makes the administration look, I think, a little grotesque, that could change that. Well, it's funny how much looking the part matters to the president from, say, Fed chairs to the president of Syria.

36:34David, as you know, this is not the first time Hegseth has made decisions that the White House clearly was not happy with and, in fact, reversed. Last July, the White House apparently caught off guard when Hegseth paused weapon shipments to Ukraine. The administration turned that around a week later. At one point last year, the White House stopped Hegseth's youth of polygraph test to search for leakers after someone raised alarm that senior officials close to the White House were being targeted. I just wonder when you add these up based on what you're hearing in contacts with the administration, is he on shaky ground at all?

37:09We haven't seen evidence of that yet. But, you know, remember what happened in 2006 when President Bush lost a major midterm election and Don Rumsfeld was out. You know, Missy raised a really critical question here, which is in his rush to look tough and sound tough, did Secretary Hegseth think about the inevitable comparisons that would be made between the United States and Iran or North Korea or ISIS, other groups that do public executions, and what the propaganda value of that would be to America's adversaries? And, you know, there are so many times in this administration where sounding tough gets out ahead of thinking through the implications.

38:03No question. And that may well be what happened this time. Particularly with Iran. I mean, you think of the regime, which is very much in the business of public executions. Miss you, Ryan. David Sanger, thanks so much for both of you. coming up next what made a loyal trump supporter who's been to 42 rallies question her allegiance cnn's donio sullivan looks at the cracks emerging in the maga movement that's next

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39:29Still haven't started? Hey, better late than never. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pickup fees may apply. Tonight, a closer look at the cracks emerging in the MAGA movement. Some of President Trump's most ardent supporters are questioning their allegiance to him. It's not just over the war in Iran or AI data centers, but the Epstein files that remain a lingering issue. And tomorrow night's The Whole Story with Anderson Cooper, CNN's Dona O'Sullivan, speaks to one former Trump loyalist about the moment her view of Trump changed. When did things start coming off the rails on your Trump train? July 8th, 2025, when Trump had his cabinet meeting and the reporter asked the question I wanted to answer about the Epstein files.

40:17So can you say why there was a minute missing from the jailhouse team on the day that said... Yeah, sure. Could I just interrupt for a second? Sure. And he said, are we still talking about the Epstein files? Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein? I swear to you, a light went off, the shades lifted, and I saw him in a completely different way. And I've not been able to unsee it. I thought he cared, and it didn't seem that he did. That was the moment, and then I started looking at everything critically. And what did you start to find? A lot of lies, a lot of deception. He became a car salesman to me.

40:53Anything he said, I just didn't believe. Does any of this make you wonder if what Trump was saying about the 2020 election and it being stolen, that that might also be a lie? I just know what I saw on the ground at the rallies, the enthusiasm. And so those things are kind of hard to erase in my mind. I do believe the election was stolen. There's so much misinformation about it, so I could be wrong. Why the Epstein files, do you think? The innocence of young girls. You know, I have daughters. And it wasn't like I was campaigning hard for the Epstein files to be released during that process. It's just that I expected they would be because he said they would be.

41:36CNN senior correspondent Doni O'Sullivan joins me now. And Doni, the woman you spoke with there, Tricia Hope, she met with an Epstein survivor. And I wonder how that interaction was given her reaction to the president's comments. Yeah, that's right, Jim. We spoke to Tricia, who lives in Texas. And I should mention that despite her falling out with Trump, she still plans voting for Ken Paxton for governor in the midterms in a couple of weeks. And also you heard there that despite her now reassessing everything that she believed about Trump, she still ultimately believes that the 2020 election was stolen.

42:18So you see just how sticky a lot of these conspiracy theories are. But yes, we interviewed Tricia in Dallas, and as it so happened, there was an event taking place involving survivors of Jeffrey Epstein and Tricia Mess, one of those. Her name is Dani Bensky. Take a look. Thank you so much for coming and being a part of this and taking the time to support. I'd love to hear. I'm so sorry. I'm just... Can I hug you? I'm so sorry. I can't imagine.

43:04There are people who care. A lot of people who care. They may just be learning, but they care. Thank you for saying. It's true. It's a lot. I was a Trump supporter for a long time. I mean, I'm really hardcore Trump supporter 42 rallies. And I am so sorry for any pain. I'm so grateful that you took in that moment and were able to really see it for what it is. I am too. I am sorry we didn't see you. Thank you. And I won't make that mistake again. Trisha. Thank you. And just a really remarkable moment there, Jim. And you can see how this really affected Trisha and really affected Danny. But let me ask you, because clearly that's a powerful moment, sincere feeling on Trisha's part there.

44:01But she's still voting for Trump's guy in Texas, who, by the way, has his own ethical issues. So I wonder when you encounter voters like that who say they are disappointed in Trump and they're finally, in her case, she says, done with him, does it actually, in your experience, change their voting intentions? Yeah, I mean, Tricia right now would describe herself as politically homeless. She's very much a conservative. You know, agrees with many of Trump's policies even as far back as the Muslim ban. But, you know, she says she doesn't want to vote for a Trump-type Republican in the 2028 election.

44:42So I think there's a lot of soul-searching going on here. I mean, what we have seen over the last few months is, especially when it comes to young men and, you know, think about how important their support was for Trump in 24, they've really broken with him when it comes to the Iran war. And a lot of that, of course, is also tied into, you know, the podcast space where you have the Tucker Carlson's and Joe Rogan's breaking with Trump on this issue as well. Those young men who we speak to in the doc, they feel really, really betrayed by the president and really now wondering where they will go next.

45:17So before we go just quickly, is there a successor that you find, a successor to Trump and the MAGA movement that you find more popular than that? Is it Vance? Is it Rubio? Is it someone else? It's Rubio. Yeah. And the name that keeps coming up as we spoke to hundreds of people and asked dozens of them directly, Rubio over Vance. Notable. All right. Donio Sullivan, thanks so much. Coming up next, the source code. Tonight, it's 2014. And we'll be right back with the story.

45:53Tonight's source code is 2014, because that's the year our very own Caitlin Collins graduated from the University of Alabama. Last night, Caitlin was inducted into the University of Alabama College of Communication and Information Sciences Hall of Fame. Caitlin's alma mater honored her alongside three others, calling her, quote, a journalist, truth seeker and fearless voice in news known for her direct and tough questioning of world leaders. We are also proud of Caitlin, who is, of course, extremely deserving of this recognition and some much needed time off. You can stream The Source live or watch on demand anytime with an all access subscription.

46:30Scan the QR code on your screen or go to CNN.com slash watch to learn more. Thanks so much for joining tonight. I'm Jim Sciuto. See you then. Newsnight with Abby Phillip starts now. You're listening to a quick ad. You know what else is quick? Selling your car on Carvana. Just put in your vehicle information and we'll give you an offer. Done. No hassle. No negotiation. No guy from an online listing lowballing you. Which means by the time I'm done explaining this, you could have basically done it.

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