Founder + Funder: Fundraising, Retail Growth, and Building a Modern Hydration Brand with Alex Michaelsen of Leisure Hydration and Ryan Springer of Midnight

20:24Hannah Dittman:I think those are all really thoughtful, high value add ways to be strategic as a founder early on and I'm sure was noticed by a lot of the people that decided to partner with you. As you think forward into like not just this next phase of what your Series A can unlock but the big vision and future of your brand where do you see leisure hydration going in its final big life dream like what's the big picture vision? Yeah, I mean, I think we want to build a modern hydration category. I think this has been dominated by Gatorade and a little bit of Powerade for decades. And you're starting to see the shift, especially in soda and energy and some of these categories that are able to create healthier, more beneficial products that win over the next generation with their branding and their marketing.

21:21But I think how can we bring something that's truly valuable and healthy to the next generation? But I think most of all, something that's fun and tastes good and people actually want to drink and enjoy. And we always think of leisure as like a sliver of vacation in your day, like something that's fun. It's a break. Like we like to say, taking a leisure break. We want to become the category leader for the next generation. So I think what you've seen Ollipop and Poppy do to Diet Coke or Celsius and Alani new to Red Bull, we would love to do to vitamin water and be the leader in that segment.

21:57Hannah Dittman:Really well said and big dreams that I am rooting for you all to achieve, as I'm sure Ryan is as well.

22:04Ryan Springer:For you are.

22:04Hannah Dittman:Yeah.

22:05Ryan Springer:Yeah. Yeah.

22:07Hannah Dittman:Reflecting back throughout this journey, especially the investment portion of it, what lessons learned have you gathered throughout the experience that you think others can learn from? And as you're speaking to other founders in the audience here, what's a few pieces of advice about fundraising or working with investment partners or just the capital journey in general that you think would be really helpful for them to know? The first things first is you need to know what you're doing. And no one knows what they're doing in terms of making every right decision. But I think what Ryan was saying of early on, we were having half of our day was talking to people and trying to consume information.

22:44And I think if you're new to an industry and you want to succeed, you need to have a insatiable curiosity that you aggressively pursue. And you need to go and gather information, parse through it, learn, get advice. Don't get advice from too many people. And when you do get the advice, don't take it straight up take that advice filter it through the context of your own business and then make a first principles decision and get better at what you're doing because i think like what worked for olipop or what works for koya or gt's kombucha or celsius is not the same thing for us it's a different brand it's a different consumer and it's a different time so like the marketing every couple years changes so i think that is a super important thing is just learning as fast as you can.

23:32The second thing too, I think is building a business that fundamentally an investor can see how the foundation will scale. So a margin or cash burn will kill a business. But how do you build a really simple and understandable foundation of this is where the margin is, this is how we're going to get it here. They can feel more safety in that. And then I think directly for fundraising, you have to build relationships really early. We met Ryan two years before they ever wrote a check and three and a half years before they led our Series A. And a lot of other investors that are on the cap table, we met years ago and followed up every couple of months and got them up to speed.

24:12I don't want to speak for Ryan, but I think it's helpful for him when we say we're going to do this and then we come back and he said, hey, we did it. And then we do it again and we did it again and we did it again. It definitely eases an investor's

24:24Ryan Springer:mind i was about to make a selfish or folio plug but it's true and i think you'll like the comparison is that the other two groups that i feel that come top of mind that we watched what they did they said what they were going to do and then they did it over and over again and just made us feel done for not being on the cap table will hicks and magic mind and ben witty at recess and i think the michelson brothers are that third group where we just watch them there's always so long you can sit on the sideline and go, just keep doing what they say they're going to do. So do we want on board or not?

24:58Ryan Springer:And all three of those founder groups were people we just believed in. And the more we do this, I think one year older than Leisure is a fund. We are also very new. I don't have a ton of wisdom to share because I think you should develop more than five years usually before you come to a bunch of big conclusions. What everyone says is true, which is it's all about the people. and do you believe in them? And the pattern that Alex is saying, I think is one of the strongest patterns that a fund manager can see or an investor overall. And it's actually influenced why we're doing a little bit of an unusual thing at midnight in that we are stage agnostic.

25:36Ryan Springer:And it's because if you get to know a founder, I don't want to have missed them. I want to be able to right size the checks in the fund to somebody that we just think this person just is not going to lose. They're going to find a way. And I think Steve and Alex hit that bucket.

25:49Hannah Dittman:Very kind and thoughtful words. And I think a really interesting strategic approach to investing as well, allowing yourself to be nimble and to really be focused on finding winners versus just finding a company that might fit a certain portfolio construction with maybe like a percentage less conviction because it's the right stage or profile for what you're focused on. And I'd love to dig in a little deeper here and ask for both of you, when you're giving updates throughout a period of time or you're talking to investors and you're getting feedback in a bit of a crossway, they're hanging around the hoop in some way, waiting and watching you.

26:26Hannah Dittman:What do you think it was that they needed to see more of to get conviction in your brand? Like, what did you feel like the feedback was early on? And what do you think the tipping point was for people to start getting really excited about wanting to lean in and really commit to the investment? Ryan said about our business early that was a strength is also a weakness is that 65 percent of our revenue through 2024 was in places that gave our product away for free. So like offices and airport lounges, which were really great for getting the brand out there for driving high margin revenue. And it helped us scale our production so that we could even set up margins so that when we launched nationally, our margins were already in the top tier.

27:14Now, when we tried to raise money off of that, we constantly got feedback of we need to know how this is going to perform in retail. Like we need revenue that's coming from retailers, that's repeat, that's over time. And it was a challenge to get funds and investors that are knowledgeable of the industry to put in money. So that's why, I mean, we're forced to focus more on people outside of the industry, which I do think can be really helpful. Because I think at least us, we like to have our opinions and we like to learn and run on our own. Eventually, as it gets bigger, you need to bring more and more people to the table.

27:49But I think early on going zero to 10 million revenue is honestly a lot more about creativity and art than it is like science. You have to figure out ways to change your brand, change your product, change your strategy. So I think when we were able to finally have conversations with real consumer investors is when our distribution was big enough to where we could show a velocity story in different places. here's how we're doing on Amazon and how that looks at Whole Foods in comparison to the rest of the category, any other regional places, conventional channels, and then what are the conversations happening with future partners that will grow the revenue.

28:30But that was kind of the inflection point. We had maybe raised Midnight put in their intro check when we were still food service heavy. And then we maybe had one other small fund in the rest were angels or non-industry people until recently. And that has come just purely from the hard facts of growth, margin, velocity, and a brand that is differentiated in big category.

28:57Hannah Dittman:That's really helpful, Color. And thank you for being so transparent about that. I feel like as every founder knows, Like the road is full of rejection. And I think understanding what needs to be the goal or to change or how to improve the business versus just internalizing that rejection is half the battle of getting where you need to go. It's just understanding the pieces that need to be in place for an investment to feel less risky or more compelling. And I think that painted a really clear, beautiful picture. And kudos to you all for the resilience and the tenacity, because that's not easy.

29:32Hannah Dittman:And going about things a scrappy way and having to build up an additional business model while you're trying to get everything going and challenging times without a ton of capital. I mean, that is no easy feat. I don't think that's lost on anyone listening. So really, really exceptional job to you all. Thank you. I appreciate it. It's a mental game too when you're not doing the conventional path because this industry is set up on a PR hype and every day you see a new LinkedIn notification of X, Y, or Z brand launching nationally at XYZ retailer while you're emailing kitchen managers at LinkedIn trying to get into their refrigerators is a little bit of a different thing, but you got to do what you got to do.

30:14Hannah Dittman:Yeah, it's that moment of like, what am I doing with my life? Am I totally crazy? Why am I doing this? Ryan, anything to add?

30:21Ryan Springer:No, I think for us, well, I guess something. At High Desert, we get told no all the time when we're raising money at midnight. Recently less, but in the beginning, we got told no almost every single time. Raising fund one was brutal. And I think the advice I would give if any investors are listening, and I do an okay job of this, there's a lot that fall through the cracks because email is almost impossible to keep up with at this point. It's really important to try as much as you can to give feedback on why you're not investing in something because it's the second most valuable thing. How you can give a brand besides a check is sort of like, why aren't I writing a check?

30:58Ryan Springer:And should they be considering and changing and thinking about this as they go forward? As a brand, I think when you hear no, I think you should not in too pushy of a way, but kind of hungrily try to gather why that note came through because that's like so valuable in terms of information as to what patterns these investors are seeing that you're not matching. And that doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Sometimes it's a good thing. Sometimes you're thinking outside the box and 65 % of your revenue is coming from these unbelievable marketing channels that Alex uncovered that he was getting paid to hand out free product, that he didn't even have to pay for the infrastructure to hand out.

31:35Ryan Springer:It was one of the greatest marketing billboards I'd ever seen. Most billboards don't pay you to be on them. That was really cool to see. I think Alex was right. We and other investors, we still just wrote the check, but I understood a lot of other investors thinking, I need to see if people pay for this first. It's definitely an art, as Alex said, not a science early on.

31:57Hannah Dittman:Well said, and I love the way you framed that. Yeah, there's always doing something different and non-traditional. You're learning a lot, and you're showing the path to another way, and others learn from your playbook as you're building it out. And I think that's part of being an innovator and a creative problem solver.

32:12Ryan Springer:There's also the fact that times are always changing. Just you got me on one of my few soapboxes. I really believe it.

32:19Hannah Dittman:Give us the insights.

32:20Ryan Springer:I'm genuinely annoyed and I shouldn't be. This isn't my role. But I'm annoyed when founders of a business from 2016 think that somehow or even now that their path up the mountain is the only way. And they give advice to brands as if you need to do this. my dad helped build the strategy of a very major beverage in the early 2000s and a lot of people will come to him and say how do i build the next x y and z and he's like if you have a time machine to the year 2002 i have an unbelievable plan for you but if you tried what we did then it's not going to work now and so i think brands need to think outside the box the way leisure did because what worked five years ago, some of the principles are always true, but largely that vein of gold has been mined by now.

33:09Ryan Springer:And you're going to have to get more creative and think of something else to make it going forward, I think. And if I can add onto that, this industry is very small and it's easy to be influenced by others. And I don't recommend copying other people's strategies because you don't even know if it's working. Like if you haven't seen someone's books and all you've seen is an article on an industry publication and their Instagram, you know, zero about their business. The amount of times I've been sent something, whether it's someone's raising money and I have a deck and I read through the financials and there is a mismatch between what you think a brand is and what their business actually is.

33:48So like try to take advice, contextualize it into your business, but ultimately the founders that wind figure out how to make their own plan work. And I'm not even saying that ours will work because we're still going along for the ride. But I think that's really important. And I think the industry in some ways is set up to make you feel insecure as a founder and that everyone can sell you the silver bullet. And I can guarantee you that there are zero silver bullets and thinking that way will lead to your destruction.

34:18Hannah Dittman:So well said. And I think if you look at like the glamorized, really successful founders that have been really innovative and made it to the top of the mountains that they were climbing. I don't think any of them have the story that they were like riffing off of someone else's journey or thinking about it the way another business or founder was necessarily. I think there's some business fundamental similarities or like some case study learning or competitive analysis things that sometimes are in common. But I think the key is going back to the root of your own customer and understanding how to best meet them.

34:54Hannah Dittman:And I think if that's always your guiding light of how you're operating a business with your consumer in mind, it's hard to go wrong because that's your job at the end of the day is to serve your consumer really well and to be focused on them. So well said. And obviously showcases your really thoughtful approach to business and having the ability to take in information and digest it, ask the questions and be curious and learn, but have your blinders on at the same time and know what's going to be right for you all and for what you're trying to achieve as a business and a brand. I'd love to quickly touch on the investor company relationship.

35:28Hannah Dittman:Obviously, we've gotten a little bit of a showcase just from this conversation, but we'd love to ask you both, what's the relationship like and where do you find the most value in the investor relationship to come from? And And if you had any words of wisdom or quick advice to help explain it to another person who's considering getting into a partnership like that, what do you think the things that they need to know are? I have to imagine that this experience is very different for every fund and brand. Midnight certainly isn't like a, even if you visit their office in Austin, you're not walking into a finance office.

36:04Hannah Dittman:We see Ryan's office right now. He's got style. I think the photo behind him does it justice. But I think for us, especially this round, we raised this round and we initiated it. We didn't need money. And part of it was around an inflection point in what the future was looking like. So I'd called Ryan and we sat down and thought about, should we raise a round collaboratively that is patient and brings on the right partners that can help the business move forward? So a lot of our relationship has been trying to figure out how to get the right people around the table. I kind of think of our business, we have our core team and employees.

36:43We're trying to build out some of the new AI type of stuff that's coming around that Ryan's also a big fan of underneath the business. But I kind of think of us trying to build like an outer shell that is a advisory board per se that has operational leaders, sales leaders, executive leaders, marketing leaders can help be advisors to our top team members. and a lot of that was part of this round. If you look at the people that got involved is who can add value, who can help us guide our strategy, who can maybe even get deeper, more involved when we need it. So Midnight played a big role in leveraging their network and helping us set up meetings and warm meetings and vice versa of us bringing stuff to the table.

37:28So I think that's been a lot of our relationship is how do we best set up the business? And again, that goes back to the belief that this is a people business. You need good people. Ryan and the team does a good job of not saying this is the way it has to get done or this is what you need to do, but more so thinking of what's happening, where can we take things, how should we go about it, working collaboratively, trying to be flexible and finding the right solutions. And I think you don't want someone that's gonna start getting really mad at you when things are going not perfectly. And I think you want gonna be a problem solver because it's going to be up and down.

38:04So that would probably be my advice.

38:06Ryan Springer:I think one of my favorite quotes to like humble myself and our team was, this is a little text that he had made a ton of money and like energy. And I was 24. So I'm asking like really open-ended questions. And I said like, what's the biggest mistake founders make? And what are the best kinds of investors? And I loved his answer. And there are people who disagree, but he was like, I'm like, value-add investors are the best kind of investors. And he was like, no, no, no, no. They're number two. He's like, there's only two good kinds of investors. Second best is value add. And the first best shuts the fuck up.

38:40Ryan Springer:He's like, they just put in money and they shut up. He's like, those are the best. You're never going to beat those. Just they forget they've invested practically. They check in once a year because those are the best. If you find those, just do those. And if you have to bring in value add and everyone else sucks was his opinion. And I'm not sure I 100 % agree, but I always think it sounds fun to think about it that way. I think a big important thing we learned pretty quick was that the value add we thought we could bring in midnight wasn't sustainable. You can't go grab a sales department and start helping run it.

39:15Ryan Springer:You can, not if you're going to make 25 investments, not if you're going to spend time finding the best deals. I think you've got to find things you can do super easily. and to Alex's point, out for us was network that takes such a small amount of time to connect the CEO of a major beverage brand with Alex and Steve. We have full faith in them. We're on a lot of calls. We're not on plenty and they crush it. Those guys get interested and suddenly we got a killer investor or advisor and the group that we built together for this round, I'm like super pumped about. there's multiple billion dollar beverage CEOs investors board members of other businesses and I think we supercharged collectively between Alex Steve and midnight that like phone a friend aspect that leisure can have and so I think that's really important and then another thing that's super important is to be in the trenches with the brand I don't mean be annoying and always be in the business.

40:20Ryan Springer:I mean, when things are going wrong for us, how are we going to solve this? Why did we make that mistake? I think it's really important instead of putting pressure on a founder. Because if you put pressure on a founder in that aspect in a negative way, they're not going to share negative shit with you that maybe you could fix or help fix or even take some pressure off of them. I think those are all really important things. And it only works if you invest the check knowing things are going to go wrong all the time here. And we're just trying to help solve it. And something we say really positively about the Leisure Guys a lot when we talk with our investors, with other brands, whoever, is they keep us in the loop.

41:01Ryan Springer:We have a group text called the Men of Leisure. We need some more women involved. It is men at this point, but as Men of Leisure, and it's the three Midnight co-founders and the two Leisure co-founders, it's a very active group chat. And that leads to more visibility in the business without some stiff monthly email.

41:21Hannah Dittman:Shared suffering, shared wins, and a shared journey. I think a very thoughtful investor mindset and a productive one to be in. I'd love to pivot now. As you know, startup CPG has the largest Slack community in the industry with now over 35 ,000 members. I'd love to pull a question directly from our channel and have you answer it as a case study for any founders with a similar question. Today's question is, what is the sweet spot revenue-wise to fundraise? A lot of investors say show traction, but some also do precede. When is it realistic in reality? Yesterday. Those are questions that I asked early on, and I think it's well-intentioned and it can consume your whole life to try and think of when should I do this or do that.

42:04And I think with investing, raising money from investors, you have to always be doing it. And that doesn't mean you always have a deck prepared and that you're raising around that has terms, but you're building a network and you're talking to people. Like, I mean, there's some funds that I think might invest in the future that we have been talking to every single round. And I kind of hold it over their head at this point, because it's kind of a joke that the valuation keeps getting higher and they keep missing it. But early on, like you need money. If you're in beverage, you need$500 ,000 for the first 18 months.

42:36And that's approximate, like to get your branding done, the formula, manufacturing, get things going, have enough money to spend on some marketing to push the ball forward. You need money. So anyone that you can go get checks from is helpful. Don't wait for X, Y, or Z CPG fund to want to put in money, go get the money from someone else in whatever way you need to. But that's my advice. I think being realistic of when funds that invest in a series A are going to want to be involved. You probably want to be talking to them at zero in revenue and 500K in revenue, but they probably aren't going to be that interested until you're a few million in gross revenue.

43:17And a few million in gross revenue contributed from a lot of distribution that's doing well. So I'll be completely transparent. When we were talking to the first round of funds in the end of 2024, we had broken$2 million in revenue, but 65 % of that was like offices. So it was like, okay, you're doing$2.25 million in revenue, but less than a million of that is coming from retailers. So then we flipped that the next year and we went majority retail. That would be my advice is that you needed money yesterday, especially if you're in beverage and talk to people that you know aren't the right fit today to build a relationship over time.

43:57and always ask for connections and build your network. But yeah, the goalposts are always moving. I talk to founders that are like, they told me get to a million. And I can raise, and now they're saying 2 million. And now they're not investing anything under 3 million. And I think that sometimes investors, from my perspective, say those things to kind of just end a conversation. Yeah. No investor is saying, oh, you did 990K. I need it to be a million. That's not actually how they're judging the business. If it's a good opportunity with a great team, a lot of momentum, that doesn't matter. It's like, it's the people, it's showing other factors and getting to an exact number.

44:35Ryan Springer:I'll keep it super short, but I want to double click on one thing Alex said and then one new thing. I don't believe the reason we did recess when they were 65 % of our things and things have gone really well since then. The reason we didn't write that check wasn't because we were like super smart. One of the reasons we wrote that check is we knew them for two years. To his point about getting to know, doing the things you say you're going to do, you build trust with someone, even if now's not the time that they could invest. And you build a relationship and they begin to see you as someone they want to invest in or as a winner or whatever.

45:10Ryan Springer:And that can overcome a fund that if we had just met them at that point, maybe we invest, maybe we don't. Because we don't know them that well. Most of the cans have been free, that there's a big reason why a smart investor might go, I need to get to know them better, whatever. But we knew him for two years. So Alice is dead on that talking to us for that amount of time is the reason we wrote a check, just like Ben Whitty, just like Will Hicks in our experience. And the second thing that I think is really important for founders to realize is that, and you know, this is just my opinion. Pre-revenue is one of the easiest times to raise money and you should raise as much money as you can early.

45:54Ryan Springer:And I'm not saying dilute yourself some enormous amount. One of the things I see a lot of founders go, I'm going to raise just barely what I need and I'm going to go out and I'm going to prove it. But guess what? You never prove it the way you thought you would. The experiment almost never goes perfectly right. And if you really need money during one of the times you haven't figured stuff out and the numbers are going down for like two months in a row, you're dead. You cannot erase money. You will not. I found that out at High Desert. We've had negative$3 ,000 on the bank twice during times we didn't have the right trend as we were figuring things out.

46:25Ryan Springer:Now we do. Now the trend is up and to the right. And we figured stuff out because my co-founder is a psycho and he just will not, he's one of those people will not quit. But to Alex's point, I just see a lot of founders overthink it. We found when you're a PowerPoint slide, it's one of the easier times to raise money. There's no performance that people can hang on your head. And most businesses don't hit the traction in the first year or two. Leisure did. That's really rare. A lot of great businesses don't hit it for a couple of years. They have to figure out and change what the product is. And then they nail it.

46:59Ryan Springer:And great founders can do that. That's what I would say. I just, I get worried because I see founders go like, I'm not going to raise much money. I'm going to put this in market. Then I'm going to do the laboratory phase and try to raise money while I'm running experiments. And my revenue is going down or up or sideways and the margins changing. And those are really, really tough times. So it's almost like free revenue and two years in for most businesses. And that's all real esoteric. And there's massive amounts of exceptions to what I'm talking about. But I know a lot of founders who could have raised more money, free revenue, and wish they did.

47:37Ryan Springer:Because they needed more runway to figure it out before they went back to market. The advice is always selling the dream. And you can sell a dream when there's no data. As soon as there's data, you're judged on the data and not the dream. And people that don't know anything about the industry love the dream. They love that vitamin water got bought by Coke for four and a half billion dollars 20 years ago. And why hasn't that happened again since? Which you can joke in knowing that that's kind of a crazy story. But I think the big picture is what you're selling when there is no picture to sell. and I also do want to relate to founders that it wasn't very easy for us and we didn't immediately catch traction we changed the branding we updated our formula seven times in the first two years we're still changing the formula we're still changing the branding my co-founders in Seattle right now because we launched a rebrand and we're not fully satisfied with the colors so we're like a plant for fixing the colors nothing's ever perfect and I think you have to raise money to be able to have time to get through that.

48:39Because I'll tell you, when we met Ryan, our biggest revenue month was$10 ,000 at the time. I remember hitting$10 ,000 in revenue and like high-fiving, thinking that was the coolest thing I'd ever seen. Like it is an accomplishment in the beginning, like you got to over$100 ,000 run rate, but like it takes time. You need to figure yourself out.

48:59Hannah Dittman:So well said and really honest and candid, both of you. This has been such a great chat. I could clearly be talking to you guys all day long. I love the honesty. I love how real you guys are and how helpful you just genuinely want to be to those listening. For any founders that want to get in touch with you, continue the conversation or follow along on your journey, what's the best way for them to reach you? And second part of my question, do you have any advice or are there any current opportunities for those interested in joining your teams or your industry in general? Message me on LinkedIn.

49:33It's just my name. You are going to start hiring soon on the sales and marketing team. So if anyone has director level sales experience, feel free to reach out to me.

49:44Ryan Springer:For me, I'm trying a controversial new thing. Look on my LinkedIn, see if you have a warm intro to me. Use a warm intro. If you don't have one, find one. I would say don't reach out cold. I'm not going to see it. I just do not have time to do that. So if you can find a warm intro, find it. Otherwise, network your way around to figure that out. We are not hiring right now at midnight. We are adjusting to see how many jobs Claude can do. We just made a hire. Her name is Kate Davis. She's wonderful. And she does the jobs like three people. So between Claude and Kate, we always joke we got like 10 employees now from zero like four months ago.

50:19Ryan Springer:So we're good. Currently, we will be hiring in the future and we'll do something then but in order to get an adventure capital i tell everyone just start doing it either writing tiny angel checks yourself i wasn't in the position to be able to do that so that's easier said than done but me and my two co-final just started a fund which was insane in its own right but just start doing it figure out a way to work for free at a fund if you're a young person trying to get an adventure and then finally i would say if you're trying to get an adventure one of my favorite paths that nobody likes is i'm not saying do what i was and steve do but be on the operating side.

50:52Ryan Springer:That's always super valuable. Like know how to run one of these businesses, even working at one of these businesses, learn how the sausage gets made. And I think you'll be a lot more valuable than you think in terms of getting in on the fund side. Thanks.

51:06Hannah Dittman:Yes. A lot of portfolio companies out there. So be strategic and select a good one. And maybe you'll even get a chance to meet someone in the boardroom at some point. Well, both of you, thank you so much, Ryan and Alex. Huge, huge pleasure chatting with you all today. Can't thank you enough. And everyone listening, make sure you check out Leisure Hydration. Go get yourself a can. Do yourself a favor. It's awesome. And you definitely want to try it if you haven't already. And if you're already a customer, then you made the right choice. Thanks so much again to both of you. Well, friends, we've now arrived together at the end of another episode of the Startup CPG podcast, the top globally ranked podcast in CPG.

51:47Hannah Dittman:And if you love this podcast, you'll love our Slack community even more. Here at Startup CPG, we're a community of brands and experts, and you should join. Sign up at StartupCPG.com. You'll then get an invite to our online Slack community of over 35 ,000 all-star CPG members, hear about amazing events near you, and all our special opportunities to get you in front of buyers, investors, brands, and more. It's a free community, so what are you waiting for? I'll catch you on the next episode, and I'll see you on the Slack. Thank you.