2025 Season Review

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1:27Matt Roberts: Hello and welcome to the Tennis Podcast and our review of 2025, our opportunity to look back and relive the highs and lows of the year that was with the help of some of our favourite, most beloved, most esteemed contributors and some very familiar voices to regular listeners of the Tennis Podcast. There is none more familiar though than that of David Law. David, how are you feeling about reliving 2025?

2:00David Law: I feel pretty good about it. Yeah, I'm familiar because you can't get rid of me and I'm old. But yes, I'm quite looking forward to reliving 2025 because I've mostly enjoyed it. My kids have this word that they use to describe things that they don't think are that great but aren't terrible, which is mid. Well, I don't think this was a mid-year. I think it was better than that, but it wasn't perfect. So, could do better.

2:27Matt Roberts: When was the last mid-year? Matt. Oh. Hello. I wasn't intending for that to be my Matt introduction, but it just came to me we're going with the flow matt when was the last mid year in tennis

2:44Catherine Whitaker: bloody hell what a tough opening question well let's let's think about this as logically as we can 2020 was bad that was that was worse than mid um was 2021 mid as we sort of came back i don't know maybe that was bad as well i don't know but no we had things like emiratakanu and in the u.s

3:05Matt Roberts: Had the Calendar Slam quest in 21.

3:07Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, and that was maybe a good year. 22?

3:10Matt Roberts: Bit mid?

3:11Catherine Whitaker: 22. I mean, started. Miracle in Melbourne, David. Miracle in Melbourne, Barty. But then Barty retired.

3:18David Law: Ash Barty. Okay, mid doesn't exist until this kid, sorry.

3:23Matt Roberts: Was 2023 any good?

3:27David Law: Carlos Alcaraz emerged. Yep. Yeah.

3:34Matt Roberts: Yeah. 2023 was quite good, wasn't it? Had that men's Wimbledon final.

3:39Catherine Whitaker: We had some great like Sabalenka-Sviontek moments, I think, that year.

3:45Matt Roberts: That was the emergence of their rivalry. OK, well, 2025 has certainly sort of reached par, which is apparently great. Matt, how are you doing? The original intro that I intended for you.

3:59Catherine Whitaker: very well thank you yeah i'm actually wearing my australian open hoodie just for anyone watching on youtube just show you the mindset i'm already in thinking about next year but still ready to look back on this year and we've done that in a kind of fun alternative way for friends this week already with the bulge awards and then we had a quiz for some friends last night as well and this is this is going to be a bit more of a serious look back i think but i'm sure i hope with some

4:31Matt Roberts: fun along the way are you saying that that david mistaking the pope for matteo berrettini wasn't a serious look back on 2025 like late contender for my highlight of the entire year

4:47Catherine Whitaker: that what a gift David gave us with with that answer just the best about every 10 minutes my

4:56Matt Roberts: brain reminds me that that happens then I have a little chuckle that happened and I have a little chuckle to myself that that happened about 14 hours ago during the tennis podcast annual quiz of the year which is one of my favorite nights of the year um I understand why it might not be one of yours david the format is that matt and i write the quiz and host the quiz and david has to take the quiz uh he's a very good sport about it um but last night he did guess that the outline of the pope was in fact during the picture round never been seen in the same room have they

5:36David Law: i mean maybe they have someone had shrunk actually there might have been seen in the same room

5:42Matt Roberts: during that actual photo shoot. I think Berrettini might have been there, but just wasn't the person in question.

5:50David Law: Yeah, it was Yannick Sinner stood next to the Davis Cup trophy and who am I was the other one. And it was just an outline. I mean, I went through the plausible options. An outline of quite a short map,

6:07Matt Roberts: wearing, very clearly wearing a sort of robe. but anyway it was it was an absolutely incredible moment David you were a great sport the quiz started well the quiz actually started with a webinar disaster but we're not talking about that it then moved on to David having to stand up and display his lower half in order to prove he was wearing trousers it was a great night and David you performed very respectably

6:36David Law: yes aside from these moments i i got i got just above half marks i think um so i was quite pleased including five out of five in the um who beats vera section it look it's a tough quiz we have

6:49Matt Roberts: to pitch it quite hard because we know there are people taking that quiz um some of our friends of the pod that have been with us a long time and know their tennis they put they put the three of us in the shade with their tennis knowledge, not just their knowledge, but their ability to recollect that knowledge. Because so often you see people in the quiz that are like, oh, God, I know that. You just can't bring it to the forefront of your mind quite in time. But my goodness me, it will surprise no one that there are some real tennis nerds that listen to the tennis podcast. So if you would like to be one of those tennis nerds officially and take on David and Pam Shriver.

7:30Matt Roberts: Pam was a fantastic sport as well in the quiz last night. Then the way to do that is to become a friend of the tennis podcast and snap up one of our very exciting spots. You can take us on at Daily Predictions during a Grand Slam. You can have your pet as a mascot of the show. And devastating news as of right now is that one presenter mascot slot is still available. So this is a come and get me plea to not leave one of us on the shelf, please. Because, I mean, that would just be terrible. So if you're considering snapping up a presenter mascot slot, I implore you to act quickly and put us out of our misery.

8:15Matt Roberts: You can also guest edit a Q &A show and you can also just become a friend of the Tennis Podcast. All subscribers get access to at least 25 new exclusive podcasts every year, plus Hannah's column, plus access to The Barge, our community chat platform for people that just want to talk about tennis and make connections in a non-toxic environment. And you also get a listening experience with far, far fewer ads as well. All friend subscriptions can be given as gifts. If you're stuck about what to get some on this holiday season, I am stuck on a number of gifts. But I can't, I don't think, gift a subscription to my own podcast to get me out of those holes because that would be weird and smug.

9:05Matt Roberts: But it won't be weird and smug for you. So something to consider. Just go to tennis.supportingcast.fm and take your pick from all the various categories that we have on offer. we will also of course put that link in the show notes and just so you know four of those 25 minimum bonus podcasts that we offer every year to friends subscribers four of those are Grand Slam review shows that we record in the immediate aftermath of every Grand Slam with the help of voice notes from our favourite contributors so basically those shows follow a very similar format to the show that you're about to hear but they reflect on the grand slam that has just been rather than the whole year and they are some of our very favorite shows david yeah no they are

10:00David Law: because we especially when we get out of a grand slam i i mean we've used all of our takes up and also i can't really i can't really process the event that well and then suddenly we've got half a dozen people we really like and respect who've got a different way of looking at it and they send them through to us and then they always just open the floodgates for further thoughts and ideas and reflections um i'm not sure that as a tagline uh become a friend of the tennis podcast it's not weird and smug is going to take off but you know we can try yeah that was gift the tennis podcast

10:38Matt Roberts: It's not a weird and smug thing to do unless you're one of us. True.

10:44David Law: That's fair.

10:46Matt Roberts: We are going to kick off this 2025 review show on the most explosive possible note. We have trailed that we have a pretty incredible piece of content for this show and we don't want to make you wait for it any longer. We always ask Pam Shriver and Mary Carrillo for voice notes following every Grand Slam for our year review shows. And they are always so generous with their time and energy and have up until now always been forthcoming and they've always been dynamite. However, what we haven't had before is a combined Pam Shriver, Mary Carrillo voice note. Well, that drought ends now, folks, because that is exactly what you're about to hear.

11:39Matt Roberts: Pam and Mary together, looking back on 2025. Enjoy. From Naples, Florida, I am on this amazing friends tour. I had five days that I needed to decide what to do with it. And I'm in order. I've seen Martina Navratilova, Chris Everett, Alexander Stevenson, And then Mary Carrillo allowed me to stay in her beautiful cottage. With special guest star Monica Sellis. We hadn't planned to see Monica, and we saw her yesterday. It was very nice. Yeah, Pam, you have a lot of friends. I do have a lot of friends. That's what tennis gives you, right? And so I literally, I don't do this very often. My kids are older now.

12:23I'm like, why not take five days? So I got the biggest rent-a-car I could find. Didn't park it very well. It's disgusting. It's disgusting. But what about we do a little reflection on the tennis year that is finally ended? Are we sure it's over? There's probably some. Okay, here's my idea, okay? For the tennis calendar, if I got to fix it forever, I would have a big break at least a couple of weeks after Wimbledon. So you play your hard courts, then you play your clay courts, and then you play your grass courts and then you're exhausted and you have part of the summer off and then you sweep into the U.S.

13:08Open. How do you like that idea? Well, I think the U.S. Open, now that it's a three-week major and they want to keep Labor Day as a middle weekend, I think it could start a week later and you'd still have Labor Day weekend, a major part of the U.S. Open. I just think so many people are injured by the summertime. So the idea that you can end the season early and then have some time, like why don't you take a big break in the middle of the season? Does that make any kind of sense? Well, I think some of the players that are also being smart, and this is tough on Canada, they're taking Canada off.

13:44So they're creating that space off. And I do think we've seen some of the top players this year talk. It's been one of the biggest talking points. And finding a solution, I just feel like there's got to be a working group. There's got to be, you know, the powers that be have to get together and study it. Look at the data. Look at the injuries. Look at how the game is played and just come up with a better schedule. Let's see if it's done. But meanwhile. But also, but Pammy, I mean, you can have for the, like say after Wimbledon, you can have, you know, the 250s, like people who are still looking to play.

14:17That's when you can have it. You don't have to wait till the end of the year or they don't have to get squeezed out. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So maybe you only need one Master Series 1 ,000 leading into the U.S. So I guess you need – most people feel like they need three weeks on a hard court before the Open. Like you have to kind of build back from the majors. Look, we have in the last 15 years had a major move. That was Wimbledon. Moved one week later. The Australian Open, should it start later? That's another problem. Should that – they have school holidays they're trying to figure out.

14:52Anyway. I know. It will never be fixed is what we're trying to say. Never say never. Meanwhile, I want to start with a couple of things in this area of the game that has become my fascination, which is the mental side, the mindset piece. And I think one of the most extraordinary things happened this summer where a player loses in a major final love and love. It's about the most humiliating thing that can happen. and that's obviously Anna Samova losing to Shviontek and then in the very next major at the U.S. Open a few weeks later she turns the tables and beats Shviontek in a quarter and I was happy to be calling that match courtside because that's where you can really look at the faces and I just I just found the way she was able to turn that around and her whole career around has been a great story this year.

15:46How'd she do it? Well I think she probably had to do a lot of work after that final, with her mental team, to put it in its right size, to realize all that she had accomplished to win six matches, to play against Svantec. Look what Svantec did in the semis against Bencic. Lost two games. I mean, it was one of the greatest performances ever, Svantec, this year at Wimbledon. And then I think she right-sized it. And then she goes to her favorite service, Hardcourt. And then in that matchup, she got out onto the court. you could see the way she was carrying herself that she thought she could win the match you could tell in the first two games you could hear at Wimbledon I was listening on the radio first two games of the Wimbledon final miss it miss it no point was longer than like three or four hits you knew Anna Simova was in over her head but you could tell in the first couple of games she was not over her head um all right so there's that example of somebody coming good after having a devastating loss.

16:45So now explain to me how Coco Gauff wins the French Open and then her game falls away. Why did that happen? Well, unfortunately, I never won one singles major, much less a second singles major. I would have thought once you win the second one, you have validated everything and you can throw your shoulders back, relax, and just find a more comfortable place in playing pressurized moments. It was the exact opposite. And you could see it at Wimbledon where she's never played well on grass. So I think going right to grass, a surface where she feels anxiety because it stays low, her forehand's a little more vulnerable, and her serve never got going at Wimbledon.

17:33But then what we saw up in Canada, it was other than what happened to Sabalenka at the Australian circuit a couple, about four years ago, I hadn't seen a top player have such issues. There was like, I think, 24 double faults in a match she won in Canada. And then to see the anxiety on her face at the open, like in tears. I was in Donna Vekic's player box. I stepped off Donna's team, but they played second round. And I was like, oh my goodness, she's carrying so much anxiety. And I think it's about the forehand and the serve. So again, how does she get into a better mindset where she can deal with the anxiety of these shots?

18:20And you mentioned, Mary, earlier, we were talking before the voice note, how people are targeting it. So she knows. Of course. And the thing is, for so many players, especially on the guy's side, but serve plus one, serve plus forehand, that's their bread and butter. And for Coco, it's the opposite of that. I don't know how – I mean I guess it's a testimony to her mental strength that she can control her stress level in spite of those two weaknesses, right? But it's very hard to watch her suffer like that. But you're saying it's not as much a technical issue, a mechanical issue as a mental issue?

19:02I think it's both. I think in this case it's hand in hand. Well, I think a lot of people have probably tried. to fix the technique. Think about Venus Williams had some things technique wrong on her serve, never got it figured out, right? Never. So I think it's how to live with your deficiencies. And I think that is the mindset piece. Like nobody is great at everything. And I feel like for Coco, she can deal with her forehand. I think she's able to kind of like figure out, okay, bigger margins, bigger targets, more spin. I know I can't lean back on my back foot. I need to, you know, I think she's starting to figure out how to live with that forehand but i do think the serve it's and especially when both are vulnerable i think it's too it's a little bit too much for her head yeah yeah but like you're right about like serena had the smoothest smoothest sweetest most lyrical serve i've ever seen on a on the women's side you know um but venus's was always kind of discombobulated And it's not like she ever really worked to recombobulate it.

20:10And I mean, if Coco can – is it recombobulate or combobulate? I'm not sure. Either one, Mary. Either one. Yeah, I hope she figures that out because she's – what – and here's what I've always felt about great players. They could have a weaker volley than people around them or a weaker forehand or even a weaker serve. But you've never seen a champion who's slow. And one of the things that Coco – I mean she can leg out so many wins because she's such a great mover offensively and defensively. So she's got that. But you can't always leg out your wins. No. I mean, her two biggest weapons are her movement and her backhand.

21:02But all right, on to a men's tennis question. Okay. I mean, obviously, it's the second year in a row of Sinner and Alcaraz. We go, we finish the year, and it doesn't appear that it's going to change in 2026. So it's men's tennis. Is men's tennis like a little boring until the finals, or do you find it fascinating? And who do you think can step up? Yeah, no, I'm not fascinated except for those two. I mean, they are making each other better hourly and that's kind of fun to watch. And in fact, it got to a point and obviously the French Open is one of the all time great watches, that final. But when you watch them, like, isn't there a part of you, Pam, that's thinking, how could men's tennis be played better than these two guys are playing it?

21:54Like, what is the next? A lot of times, right? And I guess I do this more on the women's side than the men's. But you watch and think, oh, well, that could get better. Or people can, some of these women are going to use the net more in the coming years or whatever. But when you watch Alcaraz and Sinner, who are both so complete and have such complete coaching teams, which is such a big part of that too, there are parts of me that wonder, like, what is the next step up? How do you make a bump from what these two guys are doing? Does that occur to you at all? Or do you think tennis will always just continue to get better?

22:33How do you get, I mean, you watch them play and you think how they play so quickly and so well. And you know what I'm saying? Yeah. What do you think? Well, I think it's interesting when you look at what we've just come through the last 20 years and the progression of, say, Novak Djokovic's game, like how he continued to get better up until now age has given him a ceiling. um i think it's fun that sinner and alcaraz have shared with the media and with their fans things they're specifically working on in response to a loss like like sinner after the open he wanted to work more on his variety his slices his drop shot the you know a lob which he used when he beat him in the atp tour final um it's the little one percents right exactly and it's that's where my interest in the mindset piece because I feel like these athletes can get still get better mentally like they're not at their peak these are still young guys yes so I think it is fascinating you brought up the net play and you know me that's where I lived that's where I lived and died and I do think the game it's been fun the evolution as it's gone from really a lot of there were the big serving generation and then there was a ton of baseline stuff and now I feel like Sinner and Alcaraz are going to bring more and more all court the transition game in and I think it's going to be fun to watch but you know let's just quickly think about who might be able to to challenge like who has a high enough ceiling that if they put it together and they stay healthy could it be I'll bring up one name okay lefty Ben Shelton okay do you want to bring up a name Um, no.

24:16I mean, to be honest, I can see someone, you know, squirting out a major maybe like, you know, but I don't feel like there's an upcoming number three. And I would love to be wrong. I hope someone proves me dead wrong. But right now they're in a separate class. Yeah, like Fonseca's too young. It's going to take him a couple years. Yeah, and there are injuries to be. That's why, again, that idea of a team, you know, having a very solid group of grownups around you is absolutely key. But I want to get back to your mindset. Who, to your mind, on the men's and women's side, has the most solid, canniest mind?

25:09I think it's Yannick Sinner right now. I think what Sinner has been through on and off the court a lot, we didn't even know dealing around the drug situation, that he inadvertently had a banned substance from one of his teammates put into his body during a massage. What he had to live through while winning majors was quite unbelievable. This past year when he served that, what, three-month suspension and then what the rest of his year was. So I think the combination, and you've brought up a couple times, Mary, the continuity of the teams at the top with Sinner and Alcaraz. And I hope the rest of the game kind of sees that.

25:46Like get a team that is the best team you can and stick with it. Look, I mean, Saddle Link has stuck with her team through thick and thin. Okay, so let's go to the women's. Who has got the best mindset among the women? Well, you've mentioned Coco Golf, but I feel like that's the tale of two different mindsets within one player. I can see the mindset that helped her win her second major and she was just too tough mentally for Sabalenka, who wasn't. But then over the summer, I'm like, oh, my goodness, her mindset is like she's going to have a breakdown over the stress of the serve. So Coco is fascinating to me how she bounces between the tough mindset and then the fragile mindset.

26:25I would say, actually, in a funny way, what Sabalenka to me has proven a lot. And I will give all credit to Svantec as well. like what she did at Wimbledon. But the women's game is so much fascinating because you could name Pagula. You could Rebacchina what she's done. And, you know, her team has seemingly settled in a little bit more after so much tumult. And we're not going to go into that whole story. But Rebacchina is another one that, wow, she looks poised to have a great 2026. The women's game is the exact opposite of the men's game. It's so true. And isn't that what makes tennis, pro tennis so special is how they complement each other.

27:08No other sport does this. Yeah, I think that's true. It goes in waves, doesn't it? So as we kind of wrap things up, Mary, I just want to reflect on when I first met you at in Columbus, Ohio, the second pro tournament I ever played in. It was the Avon Futures of Columbus. And you were one of three players to introduce yourself. We became friends right away. You didn't have a long career. but you then step seamlessly into broadcasting and you were a role model example to me and many others and just in the last month you have been honored by finding out you've been elected into the international tennis hall of fame before we send it back to katherine david and matt tell us what that first few weeks has been like.

27:54Surreal comes to mind, Pam. I think, and I know that you, among a lot of other people, pushed to get me in that novel. Did not have to push hard, Mary. I think you may have more than you're willing to admit, but no, I never saw that one coming. Let's put it that way. and that I'm going in with Roger Federer is just, this is going to be an, I expect the pod people and you to be among those who are in gorgeous Newport, Rhode Island next summer. I think it'll be, it'll be very special. Obviously because of Roger, I will enjoy that part. I mean, he's the most beautiful player, one of the most beautiful human beings I've ever seen, I've ever known.

28:51I think he will, I just think he'll be very emotional, don't you? Yes. I think he'll be very, and the guys want everything, you know, but there are so many people who come to Newport, so many great champions who come to pay their respects, and they'll be, I just, I'm very glad I'll be in Rhode Island at the end of next summer. I think it's going to be something special. I've heard from so many people, and that's been really nice. And not just the women, you know. Kim Kleister gave me a great phone call. And Billie Jean, obviously, Martina, Chrissy, but also like Jim Currier, Andy Roddick, Paul Anacone.

29:41I mean, I called their careers. I've been around a long time, almost 50 years. So I got to watch them, and I've worked with so many of them since. They've become dear friends. But none dearest than you, my friend. I'm very glad I got to spend time with you here. And please move to Naples, Florida. Well, Mary, you also introduced me to first Catherine Whitaker at the start of COVID when they were working on their Relived, and they've become such dear friends. So it's amazing, these friendships within the sport. And this has been fun. Wrapping up 2025, looking ahead to 2026, especially late weekend in August when Mary Carillo Roger Federer will be inducted into the International Tennis Hall of Fame.

30:33Matt Roberts: we will be there Matt and I love nothing more than a US road trip so this has given us an opportunity for another one an incredible opportunity I could not be more excited about going to Newport, Rhode Island to see Mary Carrillo be inducted I know everyone's very excited about Roger Federer and that's cool whatever but we're there for Mary and it's going to be amazing. And just the thought of Pam having played such a role in getting Mary on the ballot, like that makes my heart feel very full indeed. Quite a lot to reflect on there. All of it, just fascinating stuff. anything you'd like to pick up on in particular Matt from that tour de force of a voice note

31:38Catherine Whitaker: well just for starters the thought of just Monica Seles just popping over and hanging out with with Mary and Pam that was that was exceptional so many little pearls of wisdom in there I thought in terms of their expressions. You know, you can't always leg out your wins. I think that's going to stick with me. Pam talking about Amanda Nisimova right-sizing the Wimbledon final I thought was really interesting. That felt so huge in the moment and like how on earth can a player recover from that? I still think it's one of the most extraordinary moments of the season. that press conference after beating Igor Sviontek when Amanda Inissimova said that she'd watched the Wimbledon final back the night before to sort of see what she did wrong and having initially sort of joked about the Wimbledon final then having kind of ignored it she then confronted it the day before she had to play Sviontek so I thought that was really, really a moment this season I'm kind of glad that Pam and Mary picked that out as well and then you know on the sinner and alcaraz of it i also have that that feeling of how does tennis get better than this when you're watching it and yet i do think the answer is that they're going to push each other to get better you know like the way alcaraz has shortened some of his swings this year i think is perhaps partly in response to the way sinner used to be able to rush him Alcaraz doesn't look so rushed quite so much in that matchup as he once did Sinner has sprinkled in the variety as a direct result to Alcaraz would Alcaraz have made the improvements on his serve that he's made were it not for Sinner you know they are just constantly pushing each other and that is what I find so fascinating about their about their rivalry so yeah like so rich to hear Mary and Pam just chewing the fat on tennis and very very special that we got to eavesdrop on that and I and I hope all the listeners enjoyed it as much as we did

33:57Matt Roberts: yeah I have the same feeling when I'm watching Sinner and Alcaraz I was glad they picked that out it reminds me of watching figure skating in particular men's figure skating although it applies to women's as well but when you're, you know, 20 years ago it was watching somebody perform a single quadruple jump that had felt impossible 10 years before and felt like the absolute pinnacle beyond a pinnacle of what felt possible within the sport and then suddenly people are performing multiple quads on all different jumps it's like, okay, this is incredible But obviously a quadruple axle isn't a possibility.

34:39Matt Roberts: An axle has an extra half turn on it to all the other jumps. Now suddenly we've got an American phenom performing quadruple axles regularly in combination, you know, from a spread eagle entry. And it just makes you think there has to be a ceiling. There has to be a physical, biological ceiling to what human beings can do. And yet we thought we'd hit the ceiling 20 years ago and here we are pushing it up and up and up. So maybe there's not. Maybe that's evolution. I don't know. Maybe Yannick Sinner and Carlos Alcraz are sort of changing the parameters of what human beings are capable of before our very eyes.

35:27Matt Roberts: I don't know. But what I fall down on is thank God there's two of them. And then with that comes the anxiety about one of them getting injured. I carry a lot of anxiety about that. I know that's pointless anxiety because there's nothing I can do about it. It's inevitable that one of them is going to get injured. But I really worry about what men's tennis looks like when that happens. And I actually think, look, if it's Alcaraz that gets injured, I think tennis has the potential to get a little bit boring. Obviously, Yannick Sinner fans would contest that. But just from an objective point of view, Yannick Sinner just metronomically winning everything, I think has the potential to be quite boring.

36:15Matt Roberts: I mean, anyone metronomically winning anything, I find generally quite boring. I think if it's Sinner that gets injured, I think Al Karaz could really drop off. I think he emotionally and mentally would really struggle without Yannick Sinner in a way that wouldn't happen the other way around. I know he did just fine during Sinner's three-month absence earlier this year. Not amazing, though. But not amazing. Not amazing. He did lose to Davy Goffin. about Sinner a lot. He lost to Davy Goffin and he talked about Yannick Sinner a lot in that time. And you could see the twinkle come back into his eye when Yannick Sinner returned to the tour.

37:02Matt Roberts: So like I'm sort of constantly preparing myself for this eventuality because it feels inevitable. And I think as much as, you know, I want to live in the moment and in the present and enjoy what we have now I it does the more I enjoy it the worse it's going to be when it's hopefully temporarily taken away but you know that's that's tennis isn't it it feels like this sort of precarious joy yeah

37:28Catherine Whitaker: and look I I share a lot of that anxiety as well um I kind of want David to come in here and tell us it's all going to be okay in a second but just something that I've been thinking about kind of related to that and hopefully is a positive and also related to what mary was saying there i do think the general like stability that alcaraz and sinner have does make them slightly less prone to getting those injuries you know like they're not they're not having to chase they're kind of obviously in competition with each other but they can manage their schedules in a way that I think a lot of other players on tour can't quite so much because when they do play, they're so good, they're reaching the latter stages and they've got these amazing teams in place that know their bodies, know the way they work, all that kind of thing.

38:19Catherine Whitaker: Obviously, they're susceptible to rolling an ankle or a kind of freak injury and I live with that anxiety. But in terms of just an injury that might come with overplaying or overtraining or training in the wrong way, I think they've got such an advantage there on the rest of the field because of how good they are, because of everything they've built up over the last few years. And I could be wrong, but it doesn't feel like an injury is going to come from that. You know, like they're just such a security and a knowledge to their teams as well, as Mary's described. And I think the big, you know, the big three, the big four had that as well.

39:00Catherine Whitaker: Obviously, they all picked up little injuries over the course of their careers. but there was such stability to them and their teams and I think that really did help their longevity in a way.

39:14Matt Roberts: Okay. Yeah, I will take that positivity, Matt. David, tell us it's all going to be okay.

39:21David Law: It's all going to be okay, guys.

39:23Matt Roberts: You worry about Alcaraz flinging himself around the court though. I know you do.

39:28David Law: I do think he chases too many balls. it was Federer who first pointed it out in the first Labour Cup that Auerkraut's played where he just said maybe he doesn't need to chase every ball like that certainly not in an exhibition no he sort of said it in a kind of amused way an affectionate way but also there's a serious point there is come on I mean I know we might gasp at some of these gets but you lost the point anyway you might win the odd one or two but maybe save those for when you when you're break point up or break point down or something. Maybe I'm being a killjoy. But that's the one thing that goes through my mind.

40:09David Law: The fact that they've put together the coaching teams they have tells me that everything is just designed to be at the top and to be competing against one another, to be getting these tiny fine margins. The fact that they don't have to play all the events because they've realised that for their legacies now, the majors are what count. and the record against each other and the ranking and that sort of thing, just makes it less likely that they're going to not come to the party at the majors because everything's geared towards them. I also think that things can change maybe over a period of time, but it can feel like not very much time.

40:51David Law: I mean, if you go back six, eight months ago, Jack Draper looked right there and I was banging on about Art of Feast and these guys haven't played for six months. you know and and things can change out of sight really but I do think that those two are going to be constant it's going to be up to the others to see if anybody can come through and I mean I know Pam mentioned that Fonseca is too young but wow am I interested to see his next season to see whether there's development that makes you go ah he's figured something out here and and I'm hopeful there. I'm hopeful.

41:29Matt Roberts: Is it because he's got a hard man haircut that you're always encouraging young tennis players to get?

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43:50Matt Roberts: OK, well, while we're on the subject of Carlos Alcaraz and Yannick Sinner, let's hear from Charlie Eccleshare, who shocked us all with his choice of what stood out for him from 2025. Hi, everyone. It's Charlie Eccleshare here. Hope you're all doing well. this is really tricky obviously you know trying to distill the year into one theme one moment and there are inevitably so many to choose from Madison Keys winning the Australian Open and a news conference after and how open she was about her struggles with her mental health and how inspiring that was and you know on a similar theme the horribly overused sporting cliche but that kind of redemption story seeing amanda anisimova beat iga sviontek being there on ash um you know just two months after that haunting and horrible double bagel we're with a final defeat amazing moments and there were so many others but if i think of the match and you know the kind of singular moment that i know i'll always remember and will always say i was there for and apologies because it's boring but it is the French Open Men's final you know being Saint-Chatrier for all five and a half hours of it and there are a couple of moments that really stick with me well there are lots actually but the moment where Alcraz wins the match with that forehand pass down the line but also just a bit earlier in the tie break I think it moved in four love up drop shot, draw Sinner in and it's a forehand volley cross court passing shot and at that moment you kind of knew it was done and you knew as well by that point that you were part of something pretty special um you know that this match had become the center of the sporting universe and and more than that you know it transcended sport it was one of those matches that everyone seemed to be watching um and yeah it's kind of rare that you know you have a day or a match or a moment or whatever that you know you'll remember for the rest of your life but that that was one of them you know that is something i know i will be boring people in years to come by being like yeah yeah no is that that match yeah yeah yeah yeah it's pretty good um but i will and i make no apologies for that you know because it instantly went into that pantheon of uh kind of fedor nadal 2008 wimbledon or Borg Macaro 1980.

46:30And it ties in, I guess, to a theme. You know, if that's the moment, then the theme is kind of how much it matters. This is something we've been talking about throughout the year, or certainly the second half of the year, how much it matters that you have the scope for these incredibly high highs with Sinner and Alcaraz, but then the rest of the men's tour can be kind of boring and there's not loads else going on. That's sort of been a tension I've been wrestling with for the last few months i guess and and maybe this exercise is quite helpful you know with a bit of distance thinking what what is it what's something i'm really going to take away and and that's it and maybe um you know at this point that's a that's kind of a sacrifice um in inverted commas we have to make for those high highs is that there are going to be some lulls obviously we want to have our cake and eat it or i certainly do we want to have this amazing rivalry but could we also have you know a third person come in could we also have some maybe more interesting subplots that really matter you know we've had some other great stories on the men's side and thinking like vachiro winning a masters out of absolutely nowhere stories like that but you know really at the sharp end that there's been one show in town but it has been such an incredible show so yeah maybe maybe that's okay I don't know um but I do know that that match they played will always stay with me um and I guess the men's side is brought into sharper focus because on the women's side there is they're almost at that sweet spot what I think is the sporting sweet spot you know like the big four era where you've got a lot of players who can reliably get to the latter stages of majors but you don't know who's going to win so there aren't too many contenders but there aren't too few so yeah I think overall you know that's quite an enviable position to be in but you know for all certainly those of us who are so close to the sport Or, you know, we might occasionally grumble about, you know, the fact that these two players are too dominant and it's too predictable.

48:49But then, you know, you do take a step back. You think, God, I was just so lucky to be there. And it's exciting to think that there may well be many more of those to come. Whether any of them quite hit those levels, we don't know. But I think it will be quite fun finding out. Thanks, everyone. See you soon. Bye.

49:12Matt Roberts: It was interesting, wasn't it, when we had the Barge Award show last week for Friends of the Pod. The two obvious categories were ATP Match of the Year and WTA Match of the Year. And look, there was barely any point of doing that category on the men's side of things. Like there was such an obvious winner. and the WTA category had so many great contenders. It always feels a bit wrong to me that the ATP has the match of the year for 2025 because net, the WTA has it in terms of match quality and match drama. But it is absolutely undeniable that Carlos Alcaraz against Yannick Sinner in the Roland Garros final was the match of 2025 and the best tennis match that I have ever seen live and may ever see live.

50:16Matt Roberts: I think it's very possible that I won't see a better tennis match than that. It's very also possible that I will see previous ice skating analogy and the fact that these guys are still really young and seem to keep getting better. but there's I mean it just was David it just was that good yeah the boring the grandkids about it

50:43David Law: that Charlie referenced I can really relate to that um you know if I never commentate on another match I had the privilege of commentating on sets two and five four two and four of that match if I never commentate on another match again I'll always have that memory of having been able to witness that inside the stadium try to keep up with the shots try to find the right words and the right reactions and know that I came off saying to the producer I would pay you to have done that and maybe that's not the best negotiating tactic of all time but I don't care that's how I felt

51:26Matt Roberts: Matt you did not move for all five sets not even a loo break I think about that all the time yeah me and Mohamed Lianni during uh

51:39Catherine Whitaker: Isna Mahou um yeah look it was it was extraordinary I've actually had a I've had a very lucky year a great year in terms of attending live events and being at some moments um and that that was the very best of them all and it's funny what stays with you right like now what are we six six months on or so i mostly remember how i felt you know i mostly remember the frenzy inside this inside the stadium and the noises everyone was making and the laughing that they were doing you know and looking over at you, Catherine and Charlie there. And I remember very closely that we were with Itamar, our friend as well, watching this one.

52:24Catherine Whitaker: It's kind of just like it becomes a shared experience. And there are little moments from the match that stay with me. You know, Charlie's picked out one there in the tie break. I always think of the Alcaraz sort of forehand squash shot that he hit very late down the stretch in the fifth set, which wasn't even the winner in the rally, but it got him back in the rally. It was just an extraordinary moment. Yeah, like it was so special. And I think, you know, Charlie's voice note there and your comments there, Catherine, about, you know, how many more great matches there were on the women's side this year, all completely agree with, you know, I think there was that stat, wasn't there?

53:10Catherine Whitaker: We only had two matches in the men's majors actually go to five sets from the round of 16 onwards at slams this year. One of them was the greatest match of all time, potentially Sinner Alcaraz. The other one was, I believe, Cameron Norrie, Nicholas Jarry at Wimbledon. Like there was just as memorable. There was a dearth of like really competitive matches down the stretch at the majors this year. But I do think we, you know, probably do need to maybe look a bit harder for the intrigue in men's tennis going into 2026. That's going to be a goal for me, because I do think that there are a lot of stories over the year.

53:56Catherine Whitaker: I'm not saying necessarily like in the middle of those slams. I think it can be a bit of a tough scene in the middle of those slams when it feels like a bit of an inevitable march towards Sina Alcraz. and we're not getting super competitive matches. But there are a lot of other stories through the year that I think just do naturally feel less compelling because they're not Cinerary careers, but they are still great in their own right. Like just off the top of my head, the Mazzetti Knight met or Vachero, the fact that Draper was so good at the start of the year, how hyped we all were for Feast.

54:29Catherine Whitaker: I think that was a real blow, like losing Draper and Feast halfway through the season, as David's talked about. those were two players we were really excited about but there were like good matches you know we had cabali bergs at the end of the season they just they all feel a bit less significant than all of the great women's matches because there's more parity on the women's tour and like everything feels significant but it's a goal for me to try and really remember and get into the other stories in men's tennis beside Sina Alcarez in 2026, because there's not only two players playing great tennis on the men's tour.

55:08Catherine Whitaker: Other people are playing good tennis, and I do think it is partly up to us to appreciate that.

55:17Matt Roberts: I agree with you. I agree with you. But look, I think we did get into all of those stories. I was living for the Mazzetti Nightmare Tour. It really gave me something to get my teeth into during a stage of the season that I struggle with, But I think the reason that, well, there's a lot of reasons why that was compelling, but it wasn't building up to a slam. Like it felt consequential because it didn't feel like the eventual outcome was inevitable. The problem at slams is that we know that fun stuff happens in the men's side of a slam in the first few rounds. and we get into that but we get into it in a very isolated way because it all feels so inconsequential in terms of the eventual outcome.

56:02Matt Roberts: And yes, we can find and enjoy the stories but that is a problem. That's what I said, yeah. It does add weight and gravity to what you're watching if it feels like it really matters at the sharp end. But look, I agree with you. and I think it really was a blow losing Feast and Draper particularly for David obviously our thoughts are with you David at this difficult time

56:32David Law: Yeah it's worse for me than for them

56:37David Law: I'll be interested to see whether they can make a go of their careers at that level again I mean I know that sounds very dramatic but there has to be a big question mark over players that have missed that long, who are putting that sort of strain on their bodies. I hope for the best. But, yeah, I totally see both of your points there, really, and I'm really determined to sort of look for, there are so many human interest stories as well as developing tennis stories. I'm fascinated to see who jumps out of the blocks. You know, when I think of how poorly Caballi started the year and how incredibly he ended it, maybe he can start the year well.

57:21David Law: And wouldn't that be interesting and see where that took him? There's a lot of people like that. But you are still left with this feeling of does this translate into something that could threaten those two if they came up against them? And I'd love to see somebody who did. you know not that I don't love their rivalry but it would be great to find somebody who's just

57:44Matt Roberts: able to impact them a third man if you will and that leads me to the iconic Simon Briggs of the Daily Telegraph here is one of our favorite people so movie buffs might be familiar with a a great film called The Third Man, which was sort of in my head when I got to the spring of 2025 and I was looking at Jack Draper and thinking he could be the third man in the great ATP rivalry alongside Sinner and Alcaraz, in the same way that Novak Djokovic became a third wheel behind Federer and Nadal. Jack had just won Indian Wells, he reached the final of Madrid, the newspaper was getting very excited about him and we were hoping for a big summer, We were hoping to introduce him to British sporting fans, not tennis fans specifically because they know who he is, but the ones who hadn't quite yet worked out who this guy was because he hadn't won enough rounds at Wimbledon.

58:47It turned out that he wasn't going to win many rounds this year either because he was already struggling with what was the beginnings of this really horrific bone bruise injury, which has killed his season pretty much stone dead. So that has probably been the dominant narrative for me in 2025, the excitement and then the concern and we heard uh jack give a great interview with the tennis podcast a few weeks ago we heard what a great guy he is we heard how difficult he finds it not to over press as he's trying to keep up in this super competitive world and uh and now we've discovered he can't play even the exhibition even the moratoglu exhibition at the end of the year and we're just praying that he can make it to australia in some shape or form so that's uh my memory perhaps and we just have to wish him all the best for 2026.

59:36Matt Roberts: And we do wish him all the best for 2026 for Jack's sake and for Simon Briggs sake.

59:44Matt Roberts: The man needs something to write about David. Yes that's right because Emerita kind of can't play every day.

59:52David Law: No listen I mean Simon loves covering different stories as much as anybody but but the the the hard facts are that the Grand Slam nations need somebody in each draw to follow. And Jack Draper is incredible news for British tennis, following on from Andy Murray, that he's come along and he's suddenly become this compelling player. And the first six months of last year, I mean, we're actually in excess of what I thought he was going to be capable of. And it looked sustainable. It seemed as though he'd become robust and just a terrible shame for him that that's changed. So let's hope it changes back as quickly as possible.

1:00:40Matt Roberts: Yeah, I do worry just to group him in with Artifice again, these sort of chronic sounding injuries at a young age. They really concern me. As the listener is starting to understand, I have a lot of injury, secondhand injury related anxiety for tennis players.

1:01:02Catherine Whitaker: If we sort of maybe just sort of put a bow on the men's tennis chat here, right? Like where we're going in 2026, to my mind, there's kind of three like big, big picture options. and one of them is kind of as Simon's talking about there a third man coming along and you know whether that's a Draper or a Feast or a Fonseca or a Shelton you know whoever it could be maybe it's someone more like Fritz like that's an option the other option I think is like it all continues as it is and Sinner and Alcarez which I think what they've done this year is kind of lifted and separated from the rest of the field.

1:01:46Catherine Whitaker: You know, as David was saying, things can change quickly. It wasn't that long ago that Alcarez wasn't even in the top two. He started the year not in the top two and they hadn't played a grand Sanfano against each other. And yet they now just seem so far ahead of the rest of the field. So that's, I think, probably the most likely option in my mind that it continues, that no one is quite able to make that jump. And Sinu and Alcarez remain pretty neck and neck. is there also an option that one of those lifts and separates from the other like is is that possible in 2026 does does the scene look a bit different because it's not a third man coming along it's one of them standing out above the others and and clearly identifying themselves as the number one the best player in the world like i'd be interested to see that as well i think that is possible and obviously I think probably all of our minds would go to it being Alcaraz I think we all sort of lean on Alcaraz's talent so much and his potential and his upper level we're all such believers in that I don't I don't want to speak for you both um no I think if one if you told me

1:02:58Matt Roberts: one's going to separate next year I would go sinner and why would you go sinner Wow. I mean, obviously, he's an incredible tennis player, but I think his mental strength, I mean, I think Alcaraz's mental strength is underrated. And I think he really proved something with winning the US Open this year in particular. Like he just locked in and said, this one's mine and proved that he can really be tunnel visioned, I think, in that way. But I think that comes a lot more naturally to Yannick Sinner than it does to Carlos Alcraz. I think he can do that 365 days a year. I think dominance will suit Yannick Sinner better than Carlos Alcraz.

1:03:46Matt Roberts: When there's so little to choose between them tennis-wise, I just, that's an outfit I can see him wearing.

1:03:55Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, that makes sense. David?

1:03:58David Law: well I would probably say that that he's more likely to be consistent as well I just unless injury comes along I just don't see that scenario happening I think it's it is possible I think somebody would have to get a lot worse somebody would have to go through a bit of a crisis of form I don't think Alcaraz is going to just be able to produce French Open comeback level or US Open level and elevate himself above what we're seeing from Yannick Sinner. Not through four slams a year. As much as I might have said 12 in a row guy, I didn't expect Sinner to come along like this from where we were at that Wimbledon.

1:04:43David Law: He has proved himself over the last two years. He is baseline level, bloody impressive. and Alcaraz occasionally has other worldly levels that can go above that but I think I think it would it would be more likely that Sinner would dominate and Alcaraz might have a year where he struggles but I still don't think either of those are going to happen I think they're going to be neck and neck and they're going to be sharing these things out and and I think the

1:05:12Catherine Whitaker: Australian Open is so fascinating there right because Alcaraz has said it's his biggest goal for 2026 coming right out the first tournament he plays is his big goal to complete the career slam be the youngest man to do that and if he does get that you are starting to look at a picture of a bit of Alcaraz dominance right he would have won three of the last four majors he would have won the two hardcore majors most recently off Sinner he would have three more majors in their personal race like i think i think the australian open is like this is not a this is not a shocking take is just so fascinating it's so perfectly poised with the way sinner sort of came back at alcaraz at the end of last year um on the indoor hard courts as well and just and just looked every bit as good as alcaraz did like it's it's so well set up and yeah i i suppose i just i just think if someone's going to do something totally outrageous to me I go Carlos Alcaraz but I do get what you mean about Sinner's consistency and reliability and how dominance will kind of suit him but ultimately I come down on the same side as you I think most likely scenario is they continue to

1:06:29David Law: split the majors over the next few years I think they split the the first two I think Alcaraz wins Australia Sinner wins the French well I was just going to say I mean it's so perfectly set up for

1:06:40Matt Roberts: Australia with Alcaraz's quest to become the youngest man to complete the career slam then imagine Alcaraz does that and how perfectly that sets up the French Open because then it's okay I've done it he's done it can can can you do it now how motivated Yannick I mean he doesn't need extra motivation does he but blah delicious absolutely delicious and then there's always the possibility that in the words of Mary Carrillo, somebody else might squirt one out.

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1:07:59And when you're out there making plans, you need somewhere reliable to stay. That's why Best Western is such a solid option. This summer, get 1 ,000 bonus points and a chance to win 250 ,000 bonus points. So wherever you're headed, make it count with this limited time offer. Life's a trip. Make the most of it at bestwestern.com. No additional purchase necessary for sweeps. See bonus points, T's and C's and sweeps rules for details and visit bestwestern.com for complete terms and conditions.

1:08:29Matt Roberts: Shall we hear from Hannah Wilkes?

1:08:32Catherine Whitaker: Always. Yes.

1:08:35Matt Roberts: Let's hear from the brilliant captain of the barge, somebody that we can't believe we get to work with. And she writes a column for us every month for Friends of the Podcast. She's an incredible talent, is Hannah. And here she is reflecting on 2025. looking back at 2025 what I see is a season when the the gulf between the content and the process of the tennis year became truly so polarized perhaps to an unprecedented extent and what I mean by that is that genuinely I think the tennis this year was so good in terms of what actually went on on the court there were a lot of really memorable matches and storylines and journeys and rivalries and tournament runs you know whether it was the French Open men's final maybe the greatest men's match I've ever seen or Madison Keys at the Australian Open with just a story for the ages and Irina Sabalenka versus the universe and also sometimes herself there was just so much to get your teeth into and really enjoy like even the rest of men's tennis outside Alcaraz and Sinner often a bit of a howling wasteland in 2025 even that finished pretty strongly with the Davis Cup finals you know at the big events at the small events at the team events at the weird events like It's just been so much to enjoy on the court.

1:10:21But I think there's also been so much getting in the way of even watching what's going on in the court. The bad ideas are getting so difficult to ignore, for one thing. I mean, shout out, two week 1000s, Saudi Arabia. and the commitment to institutional self-sabotage is so blatant and then there's what I think is the biggest issue tennis is facing now which is maybe the least discussed which is climate change I understand people don't want to talk about it because they don't know what to do about it but look at Cincinnati this summer like look at Shanghai even if all you want to do is watch tennis and not think about the fate of the world which I find extremely relatable there is an existential threat to tennis from the climate crisis and I don't really see the sport engaging with it.

1:11:30I realise that is a bit of a downer to end on, so I won't end on that, because look, you can basically ignore everything I said in the last couple of minutes. I mean, yes, Madison Key's redemption arc, yes, Alcaraz, Zinner, Championship Points, Greatest Match of All Time, Yeah, yeah. But we all know that the real moment with a capital M of the 2025 tennis season was the forehand winner Takita Oda had hit to save the second championship point against Gustavo Fernandez in the US Open men's singles final before going on to complete the career ground slap. and please imagine me punctuating that statement like Novak Djokovic hanging up the phone on Ben Charlton because I said what I said thank you and good night she said what she said

1:12:36David Law: I loved that yeah superb superb and and it inspired me to go and seek out highlights of that Takedo Oda-Gustavo Fernandes final and there is about three and a half minutes on the US Open website which we'll link to in our show notes. Just watch it. You don't even need any more. It's one of those rare short form highlights where you just feel that you've got the experience of that match and the winners and what it meant to both players. Both players were seeking to complete the career grand slam in that match fernandez has obviously been around a lot longer he's not the prodigious talent that takito odra is and yet he was the guy who had the match points first more of them didn't take them and yet he's still there to to congratulate his opponent with a really warm response and and actually you know matt matt talks about wanting to sort of seek out the good stories a bit more in men's tennis.

1:13:43David Law: I kind of want to seek out the good stories around a Grand Slam. And that includes the wheelchair tournaments. It includes doubles, maybe even junior tournaments, you know. And just try to just find more things that are out there because there's so much. And Tsukito Oda is becoming one of the stories of the sport now. So young, so dominant, you know, I'm watching Alfie Hewitt try it. You know, we were with him at the history conference at Wilmore Dunn the other day where he's talking about how he and Gordon Reid want to try to start winning grand slams by attacking the net more. And in these three minutes highlights, Takedo Oda is just flying in towards the net.

1:14:28David Law: And it's extraordinary what he's doing. So, yeah, there's so much to enjoy. and yet you have these crises that Hannah alludes to as well, which you almost try to ignore because you can't figure out a solution because, well, what is the solution?

1:14:52Matt Roberts: Yeah, and we're guilty of that too. We try and at least not ignore it, but so often what we're doing is just sort of mentioning it, nodding to it sort of making the listeners know that we're aware of this this is on our minds and then just moving on because what else can you say um just very quickly on on wheelchair tennis and taquito odor um i feel exactly the same i also think uh women's wheelchair tennis for next year is set up in a very intriguing place because this year the story the story of 2025 and women's wheelchair tennis was Yui Komiji, who nobody saw coming. I think everybody thought her best days were behind her.

1:15:39Matt Roberts: And she's won multiple slams this year. It's been a really heartwarming story, but she's done it in the absence of Dida De Gutt, who has been on the sidelines injured. She's had a major surgery and she's coming back at the start of next year. Will she be the same player that she was? I don't know. But Kimiji going head to head with Dido de Root is a fascinating storyline for 2025. But yeah, back to climate change, Matt. And tennis's bad decisions. They are impossible to ignore, aren't they? We used to have a category when we did our end of year show differently. One of the categories used to be the tennis shooting itself in the foot award.

1:16:29Matt Roberts: and there were always so many contenders. It just, I don't know, it feels like the contenders are getting less funny. Like it feels like the bad decisions are less silly or amusing and more sort of dark and potentially existentially catastrophic. Maybe that's just reflective of a shift in the world. Just the way the world's going, yeah. Yeah.

1:16:58Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, I think so. um i i did love hannah's uh turn of phrase commitment to institutional self-sabotage which is something i've always felt when i've been at the davis cup finals and the billy jing king cup finals you know like that feeling of what i'm watching is great like this tennis is really good the players are amazing like this is top level stuff like and yet that nagging feeling of oh it's happening at the end of the season when everyone's exhausted or people can't watch this because it hasn't got a tv rights deal or oh i wish that player were here but they can't be because of the way the season's set up you know like there's always like a but and I think that's part of what makes the slams so sort of vivid for us.

1:17:59Like there are, I mean, there are some buts at the slams.

1:18:02Catherine Whitaker: Like we get very frustrated by the scheduling at the slams, you know, particularly the French Open night sessions, particularly at some of the slams, putting all the women on first. Like we do have those feelings, but generally the slams are so like secure and they've got so much history behind them. and you know what you're going to get out of them. Like you are able to concentrate a little bit more and just live in the tennis of it all, I think. But through the season, the two-week Masters, the issues that Hannah's talked about in terms of playing in places where it's just too hot or sticky to be playing tennis or taking the tour to places where there might not be that much support for the players or places that might you know have horrific human rights records like these these come into play constantly you're constantly thinking about that as well as as well as the tennis and yeah it's it's a shame because i agree with hannah like the tennis this year has been exceptional for so much of it so many good matches i can i can look back on and and think about especially as we said at the start on on the wta tour and yet so little of it comes without that but and without that and of of yeah institutional self-sabotage and um the tough thing is don't really see that changing and that's that's a shame

1:19:40Matt Roberts: okay well for some more optimism let's hear from our our final voice note contributor someone who's become a bit of an icon around these parts for his voice notes they have been described by me as carrillo-esque and they've been a a really wonderful addition to our review shows over the last year or so. So let's hear now from the Athletics' Matt Futterman.

1:20:08Catherine Whitaker: I'm not breaking any news here when I say that tennis is a long season. I feel like it gets longer every year. And I should say I've had zero trouble failing my time since the tour's ended business in mid November. That's about a month after I think they should close up shop. As usual this year, I found the exhaustion and general disinterest in what happened after the US Open pretty overwhelming among the big players. Even with$15 million on the line in Riyadh, there were a lot of shrugs following losses. All that said, here's how I think the length of the season and the grind of it all revealed itself to me during the past 12 months.

1:20:45Catherine Whitaker: Over and over, my brain kept going back to how different players were at the start of the season than they were at the end. I suppose that can be a good thing. Players who have crap starts of the year in Australia and the Middle East still have plenty of time to salvage matters over the next eight months. Seriously, that is more than two months longer than an NFL season, from the first kick to the last second of the Super Bowl. Worked out very well for Taylor Fritz, didn't it? Remember his loss to Gail Monfils in Melbourne? Hard to imagine, right? Now for the downside. I found the arc of it all kind of discombobulating.

1:21:20Catherine Whitaker: Let's think about some names. What was 2025 like for Madison Keys? January was undoubtedly the greatest month of her career. She won that elusive Grand Slam. She stayed hot for a while and put up some good results into the early part of the summer. By the U.S. Open, she was spent and kind of miserable once more, especially after a first round loss. We barely saw her until the Tour Finals, where she was sick and made a quick exit. There was the saga of Yannick Sinner. He missed three months serving that doping suspension after the Australian Open. Then he came back and experienced an opera of ups and downs.

1:21:56Catherine Whitaker: Heartbreak in Paris, the best of the best at Wimbledon, seemingly lost in the wilderness in New York, triumph in Turin. That's a wild journey. Novak, the muscle injury in Australia, the messed up hip by the end of Wimbledon, all those Grand Slam semis, the titles in Geneva and Athens. I'm not exactly sure what I am supposed to remember here. Ben Shelton, he dazzled me for the better part of six months on the big stages. Then he blew out his shoulder in September and was a shadow of himself down the stretch. Jack Draper endured a similar narrative. I have no idea what we're going to see from either of them.

1:22:32Catherine Whitaker: I think Coco Gauff spent six months playing herself into Grand Slam winning form and looked like one of the best players in the world again. That joyous collapse on the clay of Roland Garros will forever be etched in my mind. By late August, she was a broken player. What the hell? Anissa Mova? She couldn't get out of the second round in Australia. She won Doha. She was basically broken for the next two months. And then she became one of the tour's top bankers. Victoria Mboko, at 19, played 76 matches this year. She started the year outside the top 300. Now she's number 18. Is anyone shocked about how her teenage body broke down after Canada?

1:23:12Catherine Whitaker: Mira Andreeva was about the best player in the world in March. By October, she couldn't get through a point without crying. Anyone else find this deeply weird? Igish Vyantek? Irina Sabalenka? Well, Irina was about as consistent as it gets, I suppose. Oh, there was a breakdown or two there. Remember, Paris? A tennis season is a hell of a journey, isn't it? Another one is just about two weeks away. Off we go. Happy holidays, everybody.

1:23:40Matt Roberts: Off we go indeed. I do love a Matt Futterman voice note David and he speaks a lot of very profound sense there in terms of a big picture view of this juggernaut that is the ATP and WTA

1:24:01David Law: tours yeah the the the endlessness of it all um i i'm mindful that matt futterman and and ourselves and and all the people you're hearing from here we're all the privileged few who get to travel to the grand slams you get to walk in to tournaments with a badge who who who get to make a living out of this sport i mean what an absolute treat and and i never take that for granted I absolutely love talking to you two about tennis and hearing from all of them and doing it for for the people that are listening and I hope that that's enjoyed by you all but at the same time I don't think that that should leave the sport free from critical analysis and criticism generally when you feel that it just could do with being so much more scarce and and that's something that the Jack Draper alluded to in the interview we did with him.

1:24:57David Law: And Matt's right. I mean, we haven't had tennis for a couple of weeks. And yes, I sometimes find myself thinking odd. I miss not being able to put the tennis on while I'm doing things and that sort of thing. But it's okay. I got used to it after a couple of days and I did other things. And the thing is, by the time it comes around, I'll be bursting for it. And that could be so much, so much more of a feeling. I'm big into NFL these days. The regular season is, what, 18 games and then a few playoff games, and it lasts between September and the end of January, and then you have eight months without it.

1:25:38David Law: I'm not saying I want that for tennis, but it really struck me more than ever this year. And look, I ended up putting it at Roger Federer's door and the Lever Cups door for not helping the calendar and so forth. And I got ahead of myself there because it's not their fault, but it's everyone's fault. The sport should just stop after the US Open as a singles concern, or at least at the end of September. Have the tour finals at the end of September. Have October as your team month to put the Billie Jean King Cup and the Davis Cup in. And then stop completely for two months. that makes the Davis Cup and the Billie Jean King Cup way more important and better for a whole month you could make it what you want it to be and what it needs to be you could still have the tour finals yes you'd lose some tournaments but imagine how much better the whole sport would be and it's never going to happen sad isn't it

1:26:42Matt Roberts: yeah and I think we're not naive enough to think that you know anybody's going to stop making capitalist decisions about the sport you know people are going to be driven by profits and money and growth but the thing is it feels like to me at the moment everybody is driven by incredibly short term profits money growth grabs nobody is looking at the the long term and I include the financial long term in that building the product to making the product the best it can be will ultimately be the the best thing for revenues long term and it feels like everybody I don't know if it's down to the fact that you know the people in the top jobs tend to only be in them for a few years so you're judged on that very short snapshot and it's did Did you increase revenue in that time?

1:27:42Matt Roberts: You know, basically that's what they're going to be judged by. And I'm not suggesting you get rid of democracy in these roles. But it does feel like there is fundamentally something quite wrong with the structure of how these things are functioning, that everybody is very short term motivated. that strikes me as a very big problem because you'll quite often get clapbacks about I think there are quotes from I often cite Canada as an example of this and a clapback we get is that the tournament directors of Canada are saying well we're quite happy because we're getting we've got more days and we've got increased ticket revenues because of those extra days and we're happy with the extended master's arrangement and what the ATP have done for us.

1:28:36Matt Roberts: Well, let's check back in five to ten years, shall we, when that event is massively diminished. I mean, it already is, but when sponsors have noticed how massively diminished it is and broadcasters have noticed. And, yeah, I'm labouring the point, but that's how I see it. And I feel like this is just a rare example of how, of where, if only they could see it, like everyone's interests are aligned here. You know, when I see the comments from Felix Auger-Eliassime and Emma Raducanu about, you know, we're multi-millionaires that get to travel the world and play sport for a living. Like, let's shut up and nobody wants to hear us complaining.

1:29:19Matt Roberts: Okay, sure. And like being aware of that privilege is a good thing. But I also, I don't want to see you playing tired and demotivated. Like, that's not in your interest and it's not in my interest. I would rather have less of watching you play tennis. And when I do watch you play tennis to know that you are giving it everything and able to physically give it everything and feel like you can put your body on the line and you're not worried about next week. You're not worried about burnout. you're not worried about falling out of love with the sport like our interests are aligned on this and I'm I'm okay with you complaining about it um because I'm complaining about it too um but I don't know yeah it's not going to change

1:30:12Catherine Whitaker: I think that um you know I completely agree by the way in terms of you know I would love a two month off season i think that would be a real real boon for the sport to have that um but that thing that matt fatterman's describing about the sort of ups and downs of a year typically i don't see that as a negative you know i i actually think that's one of the things i'm really drawn to about tennis though you know the ebbs and flows of a season the way someone can burst into form and then sort of disappear and then you don't really know what's going to happen and you know your outliers are your sinner your alcarez your sabalenka the ones at the very top who managed to sustain it through the season that's how you sort of identify their greatness is is their ability to to kind of sustain that you know there's that whole there's that passage isn't there in um in open on dragassi's book about how tennis uses the language of life and how it sort of mimics life in a way and you know a year is like that for people you're going to have ups and downs you're going to have months that are better than others and and i think tennis tennis has got a good thing there in terms of that ebb and flow but where i do agree with matt and i think it links in with hannah's voice note is that this year it felt like people were having their ebbs and flows as a result of the way the tennis season is is set up you know it didn't necessarily just feel like people were drifting in and out of form it felt like there was genuine like burnout and injury and yeah to go back to hannah's words institutional self-sabotage and that was kind of depressing like i don't mind generally the ins and outs and the ups and downs i find that fascinating but when it feels like it's kind of being forced upon these players because of what they're being asked to do because of the way the tours and tennis is set up right now.

1:32:12Catherine Whitaker: It feels like we've got a problem. And I feel like we really reached that point this year where, you know, you felt like, gosh, this sport's brilliant, but got a problem. And, yeah, will it change? Can it change? Will it change? No. Can it change? Yes. But, yeah, that's kind of how I feel. See you in a year for this conversation. Yeah, exactly, yeah.

1:32:37Matt Roberts: Yeah. Are we going to end up having to call this podcast institutional self-sabotage?

1:32:44Catherine Whitaker: Wouldn't be against it.

1:32:45Matt Roberts: Or squirt out a major.

1:32:51Matt Roberts: Just before we wrap up, I feel like we should end on a high note. Could we just talk about Amanda and Is Amova for a moment? I know she was covered by, there was lots that was covered by Pam and Mary in their opening voice note that we didn't specifically touch upon. But I have taken so much from her arc in 2025. Like if there's one moment, obviously match, it's going to be Sina Alcaraz. And there have been lots of moments this year. We're incredibly lucky to get to do what we do. And I, yeah, there have been so many moments that will stay with me forever. mostly David mistaking Matteo Berrettini the Pope for Matteo Berrettini that sort of subsumed all the other moments from 2025 for the time being but Amanda Renesimova explaining that she had or revealing that she had watched her Wimbledon final humiliation the night before taking on Igor Svantec again in the US Open quarterfinal that really lives with me I come back and think about that all the time how you know I think inspiring is you know that that sort of language is used is used a lot I think and sometimes I glaze over a little bit but I really was inspired by Amanda Inissimo over this year and confronting just the ultimate tennis trauma.

1:34:29Matt Roberts: I know she's confronted bigger trauma than that in her personal life and maybe that perspective is what helped her at the very least confront the tennis trauma. But the biggest trauma that you can experience in tennis, in sort of results terms happened to her on the biggest stage. And the way she confronted that and didn't allow it to define her or even did allow it to define her, but in the most positive possible way,

1:35:09Matt Roberts: I think is quite overwhelming, really. and yeah, I think of her in a completely different way to how I did 12 months ago and she is the player I'm most excited about in 2026. Sorry to sort of wee on your turf, Matt. No?

1:35:34Catherine Whitaker: Come on in, use the toilet.

1:35:41Matt Roberts: thank you great i did have to leave during the role on garros final to go to the loo um yeah like yeah sorry about that i know this is you know this is this is your patch but like i'm in on it um yeah i've i've parked myself on your lawn and i'm not moving i'm so into it Amanda Anisamova.

1:36:03Catherine Whitaker: You have nothing to apologise for. I'm glad we're all there.

1:36:11Matt Roberts: And I'm now going to ask you both what you're most excited about in 2026. And unfortunately, I've already stolen the answer, Amanda Anisamova. But you can have her too, Matt. She was yours first.

1:36:24Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, I mean, she's on the list for every year. uh but you know even even more so in in 2026 you know i i think big picture for the wta it's that it's that group isn't it you know like there are there are so many major contenders on on the wta tour and i think i think you know if kind of to go back to the start of the show when we're talking about mid-seasons um and and you know we identified as like 2023 was a real like Svantec-Savalenka, you know, kind of that rivalry really blossoming. I think at the end of 2024, I was excited about 2025 because by then a lot more names had kind of coalesced and become like they felt like major champions.

1:37:14Catherine Whitaker: And it just feels like that's carried on again this year. You know, like if you told me next year that Amanda Nisimova wins a major, would not be shocked. Elena Rabakina would not be shocked. Coco Goff would not be shocked. And yet you've still got Sabalenka and Svantec there. That is a great group. I would love a Svantec-Sabalenka Grand Slam final in 2026. I still think those two are above the rest in terms of their consistency and what they've already done. And I do think it's time for us to get a Grand Slam final between them. The sort of two defining players of this generation, I suppose. but a year like this has shown that even without that you can still have like a stellar year in women's tennis and that is exciting going forward and so many of them are threats on different surfaces you know like the fact that she's now won Wimbledon like she's a she's obviously a threat there like there's gonna there's there's no real tournaments where you think oh that person's out of the picture you know golf on grass I think still got kind of a way to go but otherwise like everyone's a threat everywhere and that that is you know to kind of to go back to charlie's voice note that is a sweet spot and yeah i love it i can't wait and obviously what am i most looking forward to uh you know which which city will will i be going to a salon in you know is it melbourne is it paris is it new york is it london it's going to be one of them it's what i'm it's what

1:38:52Matt Roberts: love Amanda and if I'm over to win Wimbledon obviously but I sort of I hope it's a an on the road salon experience an exotic foreign salon we get a live we get a live at Wimbledon situation though that could be fun yeah yeah that's true I think I'll do an Instagram live or something Either way, yeah, fun will be had. Wherever it is, yeah. David, other than Matt going blonde in an exotic foreign hair salon, what are you most excited about in 2026?

1:39:26David Law: Well, I mean, I concur with much of what you've said. I will continue to look forward to, I think there'll be more than one slam final between Sinner and Alcaraz. I know we joke about it but I'm genuinely looking forward to seeing Stefani and Dabrowski playing doubles together as my favourite doubles player Stefani and Matt Dabrowski and I want to see them conquer the world and yeah I want to see them get to a grandstand file

1:39:58Matt Roberts: what if it doesn't work?

1:40:01David Law: well I mean I'm interested to know it's a source of great fascination and you know there's loads of stories like that really I just want to keep as open a mind as possible. One of the things I loved about 2025 was that we started Tennis Podcast Meets because we got to speak to and get to know just that little bit, people that were names in drawers or we got preconceptions about. And then you get a little bit more sort of understanding of who they are as people just by being in their presence. and then you follow the results or follow how they're getting on. And I've really enjoyed that. And I want us to build on that.

1:40:45David Law: This is the great privilege of our access, of being on site. There are so many, you know, it's hard work sometimes, long days, long nights, long trip, away from family and whatnot. But the great privilege and advantage of being there is you just get to see and hear and feel things that you wouldn't if you weren't. and I hope that comes across in our coverage and that's what we strive to bring you.

1:41:11Matt Roberts: Yeah, can't beat being there. Get me to Australia. All right.

1:41:20Catherine Whitaker: Not long, yeah. You're flying with Matthew, which I'm so excited about.

1:41:25Matt Roberts: I am flying with Matthew. Yes. Watch this space for content or specifically watch our Instagram for content at the Tennis Podcast. Do give us a follow. I don't think I've ever been in an airport or flight situation with Matthew before.

1:41:42Catherine Whitaker: I imagine it's chaotic.

1:41:45Matt Roberts: Yeah.

1:41:46Catherine Whitaker: He's a great companion, I reckon. I'm excited and anxious in equal measure.

1:41:51Matt Roberts: I should say the only reason we're travelling together is because Matthew wants to get in on my additional baggage allowance. Of course. Not because he thinks I'd be a great travel companion.

1:42:03Matt Roberts: yeah it's very it's very like when we were supposed to have dinner with matthew and he texted asking if he could use my my washer dryer while we were dining and then 15 minutes before

1:42:17Catherine Whitaker: we were meant to be having dinner he said can we push it back three hours

1:42:26Matt Roberts: yeah that was an ill-fated evening wasn't it uh this has been so fun i love these shows i love our grand slam review shows um thank you to all of our contributors pam mary charlie and matt from the athletic the incredible hannah wilkes and the incomparable simon briggs you are all very important members of the Tennis Podcast family and we love you all and we can't wait to to voyage into 2026 together

1:43:02Matt Roberts: we still have a couple of pods left in 2025 actually in fact more than a couple if you're a friend of the pod because we have our live Q &A show tomorrow Tuesday night for friends of the pod that's at 8pm on YouTube it'll be up as a podcast as well We also have our final edition of Tennis Relived for 2025. That'll be up on Friday and it focuses on Brad Parks, the man who came up with the idea of wheelchair tennis. It was all down to him 50 years ago. Next year, wheelchair tennis will be celebrating its 50th anniversary. And we'll be talking about that journey over the past 50 years and celebrating Brad Parks, who David has spoken to in great length.

1:43:48Matt Roberts: And he's a heck of a guy. So we're very excited about that show. Then we also have a weekly show recording on Sunday covering any and all news that the tennis world has chosen to bring us in that time. And then we'll be back the following Sunday to talk about your friend of mine, the Battle of the Sexes and other news in the tennis world. But unavoidably, we will also talk about the Battle of the Sexes.

1:44:18Catherine Whitaker: And that will be our big 2026 season preview as well.

1:44:22Matt Roberts: It will.

1:44:24Catherine Whitaker: I'm focusing on that bit.

1:44:26Matt Roberts: Right. Yeah, I appreciate that, Matt. That has lessened the dread, the knot in my stomach slightly. So lots to come your way for the remainder of 2025. Even more to come your way in 2026. We've been planning. We've been drawing up lists of requests for tennis podcast meets. Fun and exciting stuff coming your way for 2026. Hello to our mascots, Phoebe, Maisie and Roger. We love you. Phoebe had a little cameo at the quiz last night. That was a good moment. Quite a lot of dog and cat cameos at the quiz. Actually, I enjoyed all of that, but obviously in particular Phoebe's cameo. Hello to our top folks and executive producers, Greg, Chris and Jeff.

1:45:20Matt Roberts: We had Chris at the quiz last night. I think he performed very creditably whilst also keeping an eye on the NFL at the same time. So well done, Chris. Matt, let's have some shout outs.

1:45:32Catherine Whitaker: We have Benji Husband from Melbourne.

1:45:37Matt Roberts: how apt Benji love the name Benji how fun

1:45:43Catherine Whitaker: and get this Benji will be a ball kid at this year's Australian Open and his favourite player his favourite player is Grigor Dimitrov and he's hoping for one more good run at a slam he only needs

1:46:00Matt Roberts: one Benji you never know

1:46:05David Law: you never know two sets up he was on the great Yannick Senna

1:46:13Matt Roberts: well done David because that moment probably deserved a mention didn't it in the review show yeah the great sliding doors of 2025 Benji thank you for making us remember that and good luck being a ball kid at the Australian Open not that you need it but that sounds like it'll be great fun. Enjoy.

1:46:37Catherine Whitaker: We've also got Geraint from Southwark in London.

1:46:42Matt Roberts: Hello Geraint.

1:46:43Catherine Whitaker: All right Geraint. Geraint says like...

1:46:46Matt Roberts: From Southwark as in Southwark London?

1:46:49Catherine Whitaker: Yes.

1:46:51Matt Roberts: Oh, nearby.

1:46:53Catherine Whitaker: And it...

1:46:54Matt Roberts: I wonder if you mean sort of the place or the borough.

1:47:01anyway

1:47:02Catherine Whitaker: you can say in answer to stop going on about Southwark

1:47:10Matt Roberts: it's all I've got on Geraint at the moment tell us more

1:47:14Catherine Whitaker: I've been trying and you keep going on about Southwark

1:47:24Catherine Whitaker: Geraint says like Geraint Richards, an influential wheelchair tennis figure.

1:47:31David Law: Good work, Geraint.

1:47:33Matt Roberts: Good work, Geraint. We love that. I'm afraid to say anything more, but thank you for being a friend of the pod.

1:47:41Catherine Whitaker: And finally, we have Peter Swenson from Corvallis, Oregon. Oh. Hi, Peter.

1:47:50Matt Roberts: Hello, Peter.

1:47:51Catherine Whitaker: Peter, who says, My early days of seeing professional tennis live were right in the David's sweet spot of the early 90s when I saw players like Gabriela Sabatini and Stefan Edberg at the US Open. Oh, fantastic.

1:48:08David Law: So you're thinking 1990 when Sabatini won the US Open and 91 when Edberg won the first of his two back-to-back US Opens. Oh, great days. There we go.

1:48:23Matt Roberts: Thank you, Peter.

1:48:24Catherine Whitaker: You've transported David, Peter. What a gift.

1:48:28Matt Roberts: We'll put you in touch with David.

1:48:30David Law: Do you want to go for a pint, Peter?

1:48:33Matt Roberts: Chat the 90s together. Geraint, Peter, and who was our first shout-out, Matt? Benji. Benji. Benji. Benji, Geraint, and Peter. Thank you ever so much for being friends of the pod. Thank you all for listening or for watching. if you joined us on YouTube. We will be back for Friends on Tuesday and on Friday, and we'll be back for everybody else on Sunday. If you'd like to become a friend of the pod, the link is in our show notes. Thank you. We'll speak to you soon.

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