Why is Zverev so annoyed?

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1:41Matt Roberts: Well, hello and welcome to the Tennis Podcast. It is Thursday afternoon as we come to you our third pod of a four-pod week. Things are moving and shaking in Paris and in Hong Kong and in Chennai and in the race to Turin. The race that was headed for a brilliant sprint finish is now somewhat, frankly, of a damp squib. The barge has renamed it the race from Turin. Here is the state of affairs as we come to you on Thursday. Flavio Caballi is in. His self-inflicted nightmare tour is over. Whether he actually plays or not, we don't know because he is currently on the sidelines injured. He's been posting a lot of pictures of himself having a merry old time drinking quite a lot of alcohol watching football.

2:34Matt Roberts: Good luck to you, Flavio. He has made it to Turin for the first time. Artifis is also in. He was all but qualified as we recorded on Monday. He has now confirmed his qualification by beating Thomas Mahatch on Wednesday night. And he is miraculously also still in the tournament in Paris. The same, Matt, cannot be said of the other flops. Yeah, honestly, it made our life quite a lot easier because we spent much of yesterday wrestling with when on earth we were going to record this show on Thursday because we want it to be as up-to-date as it can possibly be. And we were very much anticipating important matches in the race to Turin on Thursday, today.

3:25In particular, we were all expecting...

3:27Matt Roberts: Yes, we must make sure we get Djokovic-Dominor in. Right, right. We couldn't possibly record before Djokovic-Dominor. It would be doing a disservice to the listener. Yeah, because they won't both lose. That match won't be Hijikata-Echeverry. And yet here we are. It kind of all started a little bit before that. Rafael Hodder lost to Kasparud. And at that point, that seemed like a real crisis, a bad result. Who can take advantage? And then yesterday, one after another, Francis Tiafoe lost. Alex Dimonor lost. Novak Djokovic lost. So Dimonor and Djokovic are out of the race. Francis Tiafoe and Rafael Hodder are still in the qualification spots.

4:12And suddenly two people who I had not even been including on our race to Turin updates in the last few weeks because they seemed so far back. Taylor Fritz and Tommy Paul have now got a shot to get in and we will we will find out as Paris unfolds. So, yeah, real, real carnage in Paris yesterday.

4:33Matt Roberts: Yeah, Raphael Hodder is still in the race despite being out of Paris, as is Francis Tiafoe. Alex de Minoer and Novak Djokovic, they are now out of the race. In terms of Fritz and Paul, here are your scenarios as we come to you. Tommy Paul has just beaten Quentin Alice. He's reached the quarterfinals in Paris without dropping a set. If he reaches the final and has a better result than Taylor Fritz in the tournament, then he qualifies for Turin. If Fritz reaches the semifinals and has an equal or better result than Paul, Fritz qualifies. If Paul defeats Fritz in the final, both qualify and Diafo is out.

5:20Matt Roberts: Potentially the funniest scenario of all of those still available. That is the only scenario in which Francis Diafo doesn't qualify, by the way. if Fritz does not reach the semis and there is a Carlos Alcaraz standing in Fritz's path he's in the Alcaraz side of the draw so if Fritz does not reach the semis and Paul does not reach the final Hodar qualifies which possibly still is the most likely scenario at this stage would you say Matt yes I think so Paul has to reach the final to have a chance he is in the half that has really collapsed with Alexander Zverev losing as well we'll talk about that so he's got a shot like it's not impossible for Tommy Paul to reach this final and he does seem to be playing well and as you said Fritz needs to get to the semis to try and overtake Hodder but Carlos Alcaraz is a roadblock there so I think Francis Tiafoe is probably feeling pretty good like that's quite a extreme scenario for him not to qualify you know a very particular result pull over fritz in the final and i think hodda is looking okay as well what if caboli is not able to play well well then there's a whole new bunch of scenarios david do you want to do a five minute list of those.

6:52David Law: Just making sure I'd not misunderstood that that may also be a factor.

6:57Matt Roberts: Who's next? Dimonor and Djokovic, they're probably not going to be in the running, even if Caballi plays at this point, right? Because if Fritz and Paul... I think it's going to depend on what Fritz and Paul do. I think at the moment, Dimonor is still ahead of them if they both lose now. It's very Taylor Fritz, isn't it, David? This just feels very stubborn old Taylor Fritz. Yeah, absolutely.

7:29David Law: And you wouldn't be at all surprised if he managed to squeak his way in there just by sheer bloody-mindedness. But, yeah, I mean, the fact that he's got to beat Thies and Alcaraz most likely is, well, he's got to do that, even just to get to the latter stages. That's a big ask. and I don't, you know, scraping past Alex Maltzan doesn't exactly scream premium form, does it?

7:57Matt Roberts: But I mean, David, that's true of so many of these players in Turin. I mean, Ben Shelton hasn't been in the race. You know, he's been qualified for a long time now and he's been in awful form. I mean, he's scraped the second set here against Artur Rinderkinesh but what was his performance rating in the first set? 5.6 we've got a lot of players going into turin in some pretty dodgy four well there's a lot of

8:25David Law: players that have not really done this before i know shelton's reached one of them um but tiafo i mean he had four match points and didn't win and you're thinking crikey well he's let a great chance go and suddenly he looks like an absolute lock to get in because everybody else has screwed it up um but they this is new and the length of the season you know tiafo has not played a season like this where he's just pushed on all the way through the season that's why he's in the position he's in because he's being consistent he's done the thing that you're supposed to do and they're hanging on by a thread i mean goodness knows what some of these like all be like when they're playing in turin you hope you hope that adrenaline adrenaline takes over and of course they get that extra week now you know that that's big I think that they don't have to go and play next week the way that sort of Mazzetti was trying to and all this sort of thing last year but you know they're gonna need to find some energy from somewhere and that includes Verev

9:23Matt Roberts: yeah we'll come on to him in a moment and and just staying on that point for a for a minute never mind never played a season like this before in Tiafoe's case Hodder has literally never played a season before like him him floundering at the turin finish line probably the most understandable of the lot right matt yes and i think that one also felt to me anyway the least like totally letting an opportunity slip you know davis talked about tiafo with his match points and how he should have won that match alex de minore was playing thomas martinez chavere who never beaten a top 10 player before and it was the 21st attempt and he finally managed to do it but Dimonor was the victim there and then Djokovic was a set up and in control against Rinki Hitchikata and kind of let that one go whereas Hodar okay he probably should be beating Kasparud but Kasparud is like sneaky quite good on an indoor hard court whenever he's played in in Turin he's got out of the group and he's got to a final there before he's had quite a lot of good wins in these sorts of conditions and that match was mostly to me about yes Hodder not being at his best but actually Rude playing pretty well I didn't really think Hodder had that much more that he could have done in that match with what he had he just got outplayed whereas I think all of the others it really feels like they've just let it go yesterday so yeah I think that's a bit of a difference between them as well.

11:01Matt Roberts: Djokovic was pissed off, wasn't he? I think he was pissed off because he wanted Turin. He let it be known that he wanted Turin. I think he was, well, pissed off that he let it slip away. Pissed off that, look, I think Rinki Hijikata is a lovely player, probably underrated, and I'm really chuffed for him. He's having this little run in Paris, but that is not the sort of player that Novak Djokovic wants to be losing to at any stage of his career, is it? Like, I don't think he'll, if he starts losing to Rinki Hidjakarta week in, week out, I think there's potential for him to revise his playing until LA 2028 plans, put it like that.

11:46I don't think he wants to sustain too many losses that look like that.

11:51Matt Roberts: Now, you know, Beijing is still in the recent rearview mirror and it's the end of the season. I think there's lots of circumstances here that don't necessarily mean there's cause for alarm, but he did not enjoy that defeat, David.

12:06David Law: No, he didn't. And I just think it's kind of inevitable that he finds it really hard, and I think this is a subconscious thing, to get up for a match like that. Why is Rinki Hidji Carter in the way of Novak Djokovic getting to Turin? I'm sure he's not consciously thinking that you know he's consciously trying to do all the professional things he's getting his body in the right condition he's coming out with a strategy he's trying to win the points but he is at his absolute supreme best when he taps into something that he needs that that just he subconsciously has to do because the threat level down the other end is so high and we saw it against Sinner at the start of the year and we saw it against a couple of weeks ago, and he played out of his mind, and it was too good even for them.

12:59David Law: Hidji Carter just doesn't provide that threat in any sort of metric, really, and reputationally it's not there. So how can you get excited for that match? And even if you're trying your best to be the ultimate pro, and I have no doubt Djokovic was trying to do that, but he can't get excited for it. He can't get scared because of it. And these are the things that provide his best tennis. Yeah, I mean, I just don't think that will happen that often because the amount that Djokovic plays, typically he ends up running into somebody who's a real threat and who's a really exciting opponent. The challenge he has is in the early rounds of, say, Grand Slams, is navigating the Rinki Hidja Carters and not coming unstuck because he doesn't have that gear in quite the same way as he used to.

13:53David Law: when he would just roll through these people because he was just way better and more physically supreme to them. He can still do it, but he has to be on heat, really, in the way that he's sort of going about his business.

14:08Matt Roberts: What's the best tennis you've both seen so far in Paris? Would it be Muzzetti's performance to beat Alexander Zverev yesterday? the tennis i enjoyed the most yes would be would be that i think it was a poor performance from alexander zverev generally i think particularly in the second set he he totally fell off and wasn't wasn't his usual self uh the first set was competitive though and it did look like it looked like it was going to be one of those sets where Mazzetti is making Zverev look quite limited as a player and Mazzetti is using all of his variety, his array of shots in attack and defence, but can he actually close and win the big moments?

14:56And it was looking like the answer was going to be no. It's Zverev 5-2 up in that first set tie break. But then Mazzetti just pulled off some of his very best tennis. There was a brilliant backhand passing shot down low with the flick of the wrist. There was a point where he was working Zverev over with his backhand slice and then he set up the big backhand and he just leaned on it and wrong footed Zverev. And then there was a brilliant, instinctive forehand return winner to get the crucial mini break. And then he served it out with a big serve of his own. So that little flurry of tennis at the end from Mazzetti of that first set tie break was both really fun tennis to watch and really high quality tennis in a big moment when he needed it.

15:38And that was electric. But, you know, I do think a lot of players are struggling a little bit with the really quick conditions in Paris. It might not look quick on the telly. Indeed, we can get into that. But like last year they talked about how Paris was slow and this year they've consciously tried to quicken it up. But it seems like they've gone a little bit too far. And I think some players are maybe struggling a little bit for feel on the ball. Alkra's talked about that with how different it felt to Vienna. So it hasn't, to me, felt like the most high-quality tournament. You know, there's been a lot of players blowing chances, there's been quite a lot of injuries.

16:21But yeah, that Mazzetti performance and victory over Zverev is big for him, I think, and was a very fun watch.

16:31Matt Roberts: Zverev's first time playing with the number one next to his name, of course. Of course, David, we had a big chat on Monday about how aware, how bothered by the discourse around his being world number one, Alexander Zverev would be. And your feeling, and I agree with you, was right at this minute, it won't be bothering him at all. He'll just be high on being world number one. but next year he will come out with a point to prove, wanting to show the world that he is the real number one and he can be Carlos Alcaraz and Yannick Sinner. Whether he'd be successful in that is another matter but that was your feeling and I thought you made a very persuasive case.

17:14Matt Roberts: Turns out he is quite bothered. He used the word annoyed about five times in one answer about becoming world number one and seemingly in his view having to defend verbally his position as the world number one. He claims to be, David, the only player in history that has had to do this and has faced that kind of questioning.

17:45David Law: I'd suggest the news that that provides us with is that Alexander Zverev doesn't know his history because I think he was seven years old when Roger Federer became world number one for the first time. And I think he is comparing himself to all the world number ones he's seen in the men's game. And that's Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal and Novak Djokovic and Andy Murray, Carlos Alcaraz and Yannick Sinner. And you can throw in a little bit of Daniel Medvedev. Maybe it's Medvedev as a comparison that's pissed him off. I don't know. because he got 16 weeks worth of being world number one. And I suppose there wasn't much of a conversation around Medvedev.

18:28David Law: But then Medvedev also...

18:29Matt Roberts: But it was pre-Alkaraz and Sinner, wasn't it?

18:33David Law: Yeah, and Medvedev did beat Djokovic in a Grand Slam final to win and stop the Grand Slam happening. These were big deals. Maybe there's a little point to be made there, but I certainly don't think Alexander Zverev can have any gripes about maybe not being spoken about in the same breath as the big four and the big two of now, if you like. It's just night and day. And there's a great piece on The Athletic by Matt Futterman, James Hansen, where they've been talking about other players that have had to go through this conversation in the past. You know, Thomas Muster was sneered at, frankly, by his...

19:17Matt Roberts: enjoyed the digging out of the Thomas Muster transcripts.

19:20David Law: Yeah, and he was just like, I don't care. It says I'm number one. I'm number one for a reason. I just don't care what anybody says. Dinara Safina had to go through a pretty horrendous time. She didn't win a Grand Slam title, yet she was world number one. Serena Williams openly mocked her in a Wimbledon France. Yeah, it was put to Serena Williams, and Serena's like, well, I don't really, I mean, I've won three Grand Slams. I hold three Grand Slams at the moment. Shouldn't, you know, it's kind of like, shouldn't I be world number one, you know? And she hasn't won any. And then I've actually done a bit of digging on my own this morning and reminded myself of some of the things that were said when Marcelo Rios was world number one.

20:03David Law: And he became world number one in 1998. He didn't win a Grand Slam title in his career. He reached the final of the Australian Open, lost that to Pitta Corder, but then went on this incredible run of winning Indian Wells, Miami, and Rome in a sort of two, three months period. And he got to world number one, thrashing on Agassi in the final of Miami. It was just an amazing performance. And afterwards, Agassi was asked about whether he views him as a world number one. He's just got to this position. He says, to be honest, he'll have to win a slam this year to be number one in the player's eyes. To be number one in his own eyes, he'll have to win a grand slam.

20:41David Law: Rios was number one for six weeks. And then it was put to Yevgeny Kofelnikov when Kofelnikov was sort of in this conversation. Bear in mind, he got to number one and then lost his next six matches and had to constantly be asked about it. And he got very upset about not being regarded as a world number one. But about Rios, about a year earlier, he said, the guy never won a Grand Slam. Where is he ranked now? He's number six or eight. If he doesn't do well in these two tournaments, he'll be number 28. Nobody even remembers who was Marcello Rios, but everybody will remember who Pete Sampras is. And look, that's what those conversations were happening around Rios, around Kofelnikov himself.

21:25David Law: Pat Rafter was world number one for one week. Marit Safin was number one for about six weeks. You know, this stuff has been happening for years. Carlos Moyer, two weeks.

21:36Matt Roberts: all of the all of those clay court specialists that became number one had all of the had all of those muster's probably the most extreme example but yeah Moyer should you be considered the best player in the world if most of your points are coming on clay

21:54David Law: and the vast majority of them they just all I mean Moyer wasn't having any of it he was just like look I'm just really proud and I'm happy to sort of see my friends and they can see that I'm world number one. I mean, stop being so bloody chippy about it. You've done it. You've done the thing. You've won two Grand Slams, for God's sake. You've done more than Rios did.

22:18Matt Roberts: But I think the thing is, David, and sorry to sort of turn it into therapy speak, but it always just makes me come back to the Madison Keys thing. If you're expecting that thing to fill you up, you're going to be disappointed when you get the thing. and I feel like you know I'm sure in some ways it feels great but it's not it's not the validation I don't think that that he thought it was going to be No, no

22:46David Law: it may well not be and look I understand a little bit of how he feels well hey you're on line too much you're reading what people are saying too much and I'm sorry you haven't beaten Yannick Sinner or Carlos Algras this year. Of course people are going to mention that. Of course they're going to. Was there a moment in time, David,

23:11Matt Roberts: where Marcelo Rios felt like the best player in the world? Yeah. For me, that's the distinction here. Yeah, I mean, look. That Alexander Zverev, and you can only beat who's in front of you. I believe he's a worthy number one. You know, injuries are a part of sport. but there has never been a moment in time where it's felt like he is the best men's tennis player and that for me is why the questions are valid.

23:37David Law: Yeah, I mean all of these guys that I've mentioned Moyer, Muster, even Curtin, Safin all of these players and particularly Rios and Kvelnikov they were sandwiched in the Sampras and Agassi era those were the two players that people regarded as world number one even Rafter would have regarded them as the world number one but he would have been delighted that he had his week. You know, he kind of found it a bit funny, I think, but he was also still proud of his achievements. It's possible to be both. But Rios in that period had just reached the Australian Open final, then he'd thrashed Agassi in the final of Miami, he'd won the other Big Masters 1000, and then he wins Rome, and he looks like he's going to carry this on.

24:15David Law: That was the thing. He was dominating everybody, and he did feel like the world number one at that time, and particularly given that Sanfres Nagas he hadn't won Australia and looked a bit out of form he couldn't carry it on but certainly in that spring of 1998 he did feel like the world number one

24:40by the way

24:41David Law: history well yeah you do and I do think you've certainly got to know your history

24:48Matt Roberts: if you're going to go around making pronouncements He doesn't care. There's plenty of tennis players that don't know their history. But if you're going to go around glibly saying I'm the only player in history that's ever faced this, then you've got to do some reading.

25:01David Law: I don't think he cares really in that respect. Like he thinks he's right. Is he going to listen to the arguments, the counters? Probably not. I'd quite like to point this stuff out to him really. But he doesn't care. It's more convenient for him not to believe all that.

25:16Matt Roberts: And I think human beings that are prone to a chip on the shoulder will find a chip, right? Yes. If that's your character, you're going to find a chip to put there.

25:30David Law: And just to build on your point about it won't necessarily fill you up in terms of how you feel. I think he's in danger. And we've seen a little bit of evidence of this now with the back-to-back losses that he's just had. I mean, look, he looked out on his feet the other day in the match against Diminor. He looked pretty jaded in his first round in Paris. He never looked quite right. He's now reached the top of the mountain in terms of rankings, and he's had to work so bloody hard for it. And I respect him for it because he's done more in the game than I expected him to. And I've been on record saying I didn't think he would win grand sums or get into number one.

26:13David Law: I realise there are maybe reasons for that, i.e. half the year injuries for the top two players. But he still did it and he still did what nobody else did. And it took such a lot. And he did it because that was always on the horizon. That was always the goal. Now he's reached the goal. And maybe he's not feeling completely as fulfilled as he would have hoped to have felt. is he now going to really struggle for a little while just to to find the energy to fight you know he he could go to the again you've got to hope for his sake that he finds some adrenaline in Turin because every time he loses he'll have like these these sort of conversations you suspect you know if he got I mean he could like have a bad experience in Turin where he usually he's had a good experience at those tour finals um i could see him as world number one now not liking that at all um and yet struggling to find the zip you know because it's been such a long year and he's reached the top of the mountain matt anything to add no only that i think you two seem to have spent more time deep diving the psychology of alexander zverev than uh than i'm prepared to

27:38Matt Roberts: you're welcome uh anything else from from paris so far before we move on a feast getting a getting a night session in front of a paris crowd was he was good notable i think

27:54David Law: i think it helped him a little bit that he'd already qualified you take that stress away he can now concentrate on just being in front of his fans and he's had so little of that.

28:04Matt Roberts: And he looks fully fit, doesn't he?

28:06David Law: He looks fit and he just looks pumped. You know, he looks like the white song. No, Goran did the coin toss for Alcaraz, didn't he? Oh, right. Which was very odd.

28:21Matt Roberts: That's better than him doing the coin toss for his own player. I think it's the 40th year of Paris, isn't it? And I think they're doing a lot of like celebrating their past. Should we just touch upon the camera angle thing as I hinted at it earlier? They have sped up the court and a fast indoor hard court is, generally speaking, one of the best watches, I think, in tennis in terms of a televisual experience. And yet the camera angle they have on the court is so bizarre that it, well, I mean, it doesn't make it unwatchable. Paris is a good watch. But it diminishes the fun of the fast hardcourt so much.

29:11Matt Roberts: I mean, it's like if an art teacher was trying to explain foreshortening to a student, I feel like the Paris camera angle is the perfect depiction of it. And it's always been like this. Even at Bercy, they've now moved venue and it's still like that, suggesting it's very much a choice. Yeah. It makes the court looks very squat and square. And yeah, Medvedev. It makes the tennis look stodgy and spinny. Yeah. And Medvedev was like, I'm playing and it feels really fast. And then I'm watching it on telly and it looks really slow. And that's very odd. Did you see, have you seen the, that I'm relying on internet translators here.

30:03So I'll hold my hands up if this is wrong.

30:07Matt Roberts: I've got nothing else to go on because I don't speak Russian. But have you seen the interview you did in Russian where he said, he doesn't really want to play any more tennis this season. He said, I've qualified for Turin, but I sort of wish I didn't have to play anymore. It's all very Medvedev, isn't it? He does like a whinge.

30:25Matt Roberts: Everyone predicting Carlos Alkraus to win the tournament or do either of you think Taylor Fritz is going to do a thing? Bloody-minded Taylor Fritz. Or out of Fees. Yeah, I think David's more likely to think Fees is going to do a thing. Okay.

30:37David Law: I think that could be... in then? I think it's going to be Feast against Alcarez.

30:43Matt Roberts: Fun. You think Feast is going to beat Fritz tonight? I do.

30:48David Law: I think Feast is going to win the tournament now.

30:52Matt Roberts: Fun. Matt? Could be someone weird. You know, sometimes do get weird Paris champions, don't we? I'm going to stick with Alcarez.

31:08Matt Roberts: just before we close off part one and move on to talk about the WTA finals and the draw for that we have got two WTA events still happening this week we've got Chennai and Hong Kong Alexi Arler is struggling through a match in Hong Kong at the moment Matt's been getting a bit obsessed with Chennai well I had an experience on Tuesday night where I was watching Paris and it must have been I don't know gone 8 p.m here something like that and they on Sky Sports Tennis they do that thing where they you know go around the courts that are that are currently happening and suddenly I'm presented with Chennai and I was thinking it's 8 p.m here what time is it in Chennai and it turned out it was almost two o 'clock in the morning and it was deep in the third set simona voltert against a an indian wild card whose name is actually escaping me at the moment but they were deep in the third set and i got a bit obsessed with it because it was so gloomy and spooky looking the feed of this court and then it didn't look like there were any seats when you look at the court initially but then when they pan out you realize it's actually quite a big stadium they've got in Chennai and there's nobody nobody in the stadium yeah that's for a local player nobody is there of course not it's two it's two o 'clock in the morning like who is who is that for why are we playing tennis at two o 'clock in the morning at a 2.50 I think it's literally just for you just for you I think there'd been some weather issues that day and the day had dragged on but my god.

32:58But weather issues happen in the world. Could that have not waited till tomorrow that match? I mean it was bizarre. That tournament incidentally is moving to Manila next year. That's the one, that's the Iala effect on the WTA calendar. Feels like that might be more of a vibe. I'm quite looking forward to that you know contrast.

33:19Matt Roberts: What happens if Iala qualifies for the finals? Well yeah. Is that a potential problem? Yes, I think so I mean, I think technically she could play both but it definitely wouldn't be good for her WTA finals prep you wouldn't have thought to be playing the week before Okay, well we will update you on Chennai and Hong Kong and of course the outcome of Paris in our next pod on Monday That's it for part one We'll be back in part two to look ahead to the WTA finals in Indian Wells with the help of Jessica Pagula.

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36:07Matt Roberts: Welcome back to part two of today's tennis podcast where we head now to Indian Wells for the second time this year and our one-off stop there for the WTA finals. Obviously, the contract ended for it to be held in Saudi Arabia from next year. There is a longer term contract for the event to be held in Charlotte. So for one year only, we get the WTA finals in Indian Wells. The draw has been done. We have Group 1 and Group 2, just to keep things nice and simple. Sometimes they're named after people or after things, but no, Group 1, Group 2. In Group 1, we have the world number one, Elena Rabachna.

36:47Matt Roberts: We have Coco Gough. We have Jessica Pagula, more on her to come. And we have Linda Nojkova. And in Group 2, we have Irina Sabalenka. We have Mira Andreva. We have Alina Svitolina and we have Karolina Mukova. Matt, in the newsletter this week, you went a bit bananas and you did a stat, not just one Matt stat, not two, but you did a Matt stat for every single player in the WTA finals draw. Incredible work. so I feel like you're very clued up and well informed to tell us whether you think this is a sort of maximizing excitement draw I mean as draws go like a round robin two groups of four draw it's you know it doesn't set your pulse racing I know but in terms of scenarios and guaranteed match-ups how has it left you feeling yeah I quite like it I think but honestly I think I would have liked it however it had shaken out given the quality of the players that we have in in this field i think a couple of things that really jump out to me when i was going through the all the players and and the stats for this event is that the last 10 winners have been first time winners of the wta finals absolutely nobody it's a bit like wimbledon on the on the women's tour nobody has been able to take hold of this event and make it their own in the way that we have seen on the men's side with Sinner and Djokovic and Zverev's won it a couple of times.

38:25Like it's been, you know, it's obviously been good players. You only get good players at this event, but it's been a different winner every time. So I think that's kind of my overall question is can, I guess, particularly Elena Rybakina as the defending champion and as the best player on tour right now and the person who's won the Australian Open and the US Open on hard courts, can she really stamp her authority, not only over the rest of the field, but also on this event and back it up and become the first player since Serena to defend this title? And then the other thing is that, yes, we've had 10 different first-time winners, but Irina Sabalenka has not been one of them.

39:09It slightly obviously knew this, but I hadn't really processed it that Sabalenka has not won this event. And, you know, it doesn't feel like her most likely year to go and win it, considering the form she's been in. She's been in way better form coming into this event in the past. So that's a big question for me as well. Can she, you know, end the year on a high and head into the next season with some good feeling and try and win this event for the first time? So inevitably those top players are kind of the leading talking points coming into it. The only other thing that I really uncovered that I really liked, which has now been important for the way the groups have shaken out, is that the stat I liked is that Karolina Mukova is the only player in the field with a head-to-head advantage over Sabalenka in their careers.

40:05But Sabalenka is the only player in the field that Karolina Mukova has a winning record against in her career. It's this odd little quirk. And I think I have really enjoyed their matches in the past, you know, like Mukovo with her hands trying to neutralise all of Sabalenka's power. That, to me, is a really good watch. So, yeah, I'm excited for it. I think the reason I did eight stats was because I was looking at the line-up thinking, yeah, this is good. I'm interested in this. I like all of these players.

40:37Matt Roberts: In terms of potential champions, David, and who's coming through the groups, Are you more inclined to look at recent form? Are you more inclined to look at plays that have had success in Indian Wells before because of the uniqueness of the conditions there? There's slow court, but the fast, the thin mountainous air. It's a pretty unique sort of combination of conditions. It's both fast and slow, isn't it? And obviously you've got Rabakina, Sabalenka and Draver, are the ones that jump out as having had the biggest successes at the Indian Wells tournament in the past.

41:15David Law: Yeah, I think probably that element more simply because I don't think that many of these players have got great reason for them. You know, the US Open was a while ago, and Rybakina has had injury issues. look she and Sabalenka if they play their best tennis I think that they're the two favourites but I don't feel that confident that we're going to get their best tennis I'm actually quite the two players I'm looking at are actually in the same group and that's Goff and Noshkova and I feel as though they played just the one event they've played China Open since the US Open And I think that's a good rest, you know, and a good, I mean, it may hurt you in other ways.

42:07David Law: You may lose your timing, all these sort of things. But I think that that's a good way to come into this event. And I kind of feel like the conditions will suit Gough. I just, I think she will also have the crowd with her. I mean, obviously she may well, she's going to have a Pegula match to encounter, which divides any crowd's involvement. but I think the crowd will help. And Noskova, I just, I never really know what I'm going to get. I mean, she lost two and two to Alexandrova the last time we saw her, but she's played some of the best tennis I've seen all year in certain matches. She's such an interesting player.

42:48David Law: She causes problems that a lot of players don't. And it doesn't seem obvious the way she says, when Mukova plays, you can see why all the problems come. And with Noskova, she takes me by surprise a lot of the time. But not this time, because I'm convinced by either her or Goff.

43:09Matt Roberts: Okay. That's quite a punchy prediction. Matt? Yeah, I mean, just to slightly pick up on what David said there, there's a very different feel to me going into this WTA finals than there's going to be for the ATP finals, simply because we haven't seen so many of these players for quite a long time. Like it will be a month since Noskova and Goff will have played. Three weeks for Andreeva, Sabalenka, Pugula, Mukova, Svitolina. Like Rabatkin is the only one who's played more recently. So that is very different. So I think form is a little bit hard to grasp, really. I think it's a big tournament for Goff, actually, in a way.

43:49I sort of think that her year has been a lot about developing her game, you know. and the work that she's done with Gavin McMillan on the serve and getting that under control. And she does seem to have that now. And it's been like a consistent year for her. She's reached finals of some thousands. She's gone deep at slams. But it has been the first year in a while she's not had a really big title or a really big run to one of the very biggest finals. And I think it would sort of cap the season and it would be a really good statement of, OK, we are totally going in the right direction if she can have a good tournament here.

44:28And like David, I am looking at that group because I agree on Goff and Noskova, but I would throw Rabatkinner in as I'm expecting her to play well, just because of her record at Indian Wells. And, you know, we saw her recently. And to me, she looked to be in good form in the last couple of tournaments. I think that's a really strong group, that one with all of those in.

44:50Matt Roberts: No one's predicting Sabalenka. You're expecting more of a continuation of the Sabalenka that we've been seeing. You think if there's going to be a Sabalenka resurgence and regroup, it's going to be 2027? I think so. Yeah. Also, just the sheer nature of this tournament is that you can't really afford a bad match, right? Because you've... OK, well, you can in a way because you've got the groups. So that helps. But there's just so many good players that if you're a little bit off, you're going to be exposed. And I'm struggling to see a world where Sabalenka, outside of a grand slam, we did see it at the US Open where she strung good performances together.

45:35But I'm struggling to see where she just plays her very best tennis at this point, at the end of what's been a pretty annoying season for her, I think.

45:46Matt Roberts: the doubles draw we also have group 1 and group 2 in the doubles Fafri approach to these group names from Indian Wells we support that the top seeds Gabby Dabrowski and Luisa Stefani are in group 1 with Guo Han Yu and Christina Medenevich Sue Wey Shea and Yelena Ostapenko and Elisa Mertens and Zhang Shui group 2 sees the second seeds Taylor Townsend and Katerina Siniarkova with Christina Bookcher and Nicole Melikar-Martinez, Ellen Perez and Demi Schurz and Sara Irani and Jasmine Paolini. We have an order of play for the first couple of days. Play starts at midday local time every day and there's just one session, right?

46:34Singles followed by doubles. Yeah, it seems to be two singles, two doubles every day.

46:42Matt Roberts: Yeah, two singles, two doubles. So Sunday, the 8th of November, midday local time. So that would be 3pm New York, East Coast time, and 8pm our time here in the UK. Other time zones may vary. You can do your own maths. We start with Elena Rabatkinner against Lyndon Nozkova. Then we have Coco Gough against Jessica Pagula. Then Siniarkov Townsend against Irani Paolini. That's a banger to kick off the doubles with, isn't it? And then Bukse, Melikar, Martinez against Perez and Schurz. Monday is Sabalenka against Mukova. Then Andreeva Svitolina. Then Dabrowski-Stefani against Mertens and Zhang. And then Guo Medenevic against Shea and Ostapenko.

47:35Matt Roberts: Just because I can, can I have predictions for those first two days of matches, please, David? Rabatkin and Oskava.

47:46David Law: Noškova.

47:48Matt Roberts: Gough Pagula.

47:49David Law: Gough.

47:51Matt Roberts: Siniakova Townsend and Arani Paolini.

47:55David Law: Siniakova Townsend.

47:57Matt Roberts: Bukša Melikar Martinez, Perez Schurz.

48:01David Law: Perez Schurz.

48:04Matt Roberts: Do any of your predictions differ there, Matt? I would go Rabatkin. Yeah, I feel like predicting the world number one to lose in our opening matches, that's punchy stuff, David. Monday, Sabalenka against Mukova. I'm going to come to Matt first because you've got the fun stat on this. Let's go Mukova. Fun. Andreva Svitolina.

48:35Tricky, that one.

48:36Matt Roberts: It's an awkward one to kick off, isn't it? Yeah, look, you've got Svitolina in the group with Sabalenka and Andreeva. We haven't seen Svitolina since everything happened with Monfils and the abuse she suffered. I'm finding that one tough, but I'll go Andreeva because of the Indian Wells factor. Dabrowski, Stefani and Mertens Zhang. Stefani. Of course. Gwomladenovic and Shea Ostapenko.

49:08Gwomladenovic David

49:10Matt Roberts: any of your predictions differ Matt's gone Mukova Andreva Defani and Gwomladenovic

49:16David Law: just the last one

49:18Matt Roberts: yeah Ostopenko and Shea I'm going for okie doke folks that is not it for our Indian Wells WTA finals chat do join us in part three when we will digest and discuss Jessica Begula's great marketing effort for this tournament.

49:41David Law: Verizon knows that holiday math can be complicated. Okay, let's see. We got the four kids, four gifts each, six teacher gifts. Wait, oh, what did we get in? Sandy and the dogs. Oh, I can't forget the dogs. Know what doesn't need math? Simplicity Plan from Verizon. One plan, one price. Just$30 a line per month for you or the whole family. The holidays are complicated. Shopping our best deals and switching to Verizon is simple. For new customers,$30 per line includes auto pay and switch discount. Additional taxes fees and terms apply. Hey, we're Nick and Jack hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, email, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer.

50:19With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work, around the work, and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. That's goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini.

50:48Matt Roberts: Welcome back to part three of today's tennis podcast, when we have a few minutes now to discuss a story that developed online yesterday. Stand down the WTA marketing department because Jessica Begula has done your work for you. Just the most incredible promotion of this tournament, very much inadvertently, because a video has circulated of Jessica Begula's practice session with her coach. practice sessions being live streamed in Indian Mills, which is a great idea. But the players obviously not aware that there are hot mics on the court. And Jessica Bagula can be heard quite clearly if you turn your volume high enough up talking about Mira Andreeva.

51:45Matt Roberts: She appears to refer to Andreeva as a diva who, quote, needs to be humbled and, quote, put in her place. She could also be heard talking about Conchita Martinez, Andreva's coach, of course, saying that the coach has been, quote, nice to her, but immediately went on to say that she has lost a little respect for her. She said, quote, if I was a coach and my girl, you just played four great games and you're up 4-0 and you're mad at me, hitting balls at me, I would be like, first of all, that's disrespectful to the other person. Conchita, like, pokes her and, like, eggs on her behaviour, she said.

52:24Matt Roberts: Pagula then went on to do a drive-by on poor Coco Gough. She claimed that if Androva had Gough's mentality, then she would be better than Coco, saying that her game was better than Coco's in all the waves. Live streams of the practice have now been taken down by the WTA, but no comment has been made by the WTA or any player. I feel, look, there but for the grace of God, right, we have all been there with private conversations we didn't know were being made public or sent to the wrong WhatsApp group or whatever. Certainly, I have been there. So I really, really feel for Jessica Pagula, but I also feel for Mira Andreva, who is, she's a teenager, right?

53:23Matt Roberts: And this is, and Pagula has this status on the WTA tour. What she says, like, carries weight. She's kind of like the head girl, isn't she? She's the one that's wheeled out by the WTA when they want to make an announcement about something because she just carries a certain gravitas about her. So when, you know, if I'm in Mirandreva's position and the head girl of the WTA is calling me a diva and saying I need to be humbled a little bit, I'm finding that hurtful and I'm finding the locker room just a slightly less hospitable place to be, which makes me sad. And as much as this story is, I find it extremely funny and I hope no lasting harm is done by this.

54:15Matt Roberts: I hope it's okay to find it funny and everybody's, you know, basically going to be okay. But it does sort of play into the perception of, the lazy perception of, you know, women being bitchy to one another, which is a bit of a shame. But ultimately, I do still find this quite funny while hoping that everybody involved is okay. Matt? yeah look i think we always try and call out behavior that we think's unacceptable or that or that we wouldn't do and i i can't really sit here and be all holier than thou about it when you know i also enjoy a chat about a colleague in a in a private setting that i don't think is going to get out.

55:05Some colleagues, not necessarily present on this call. And look, as you say, I would be absolutely mortified if that got out and I would also be mortified if I were Andreeva and I heard someone else talking about me like that. But I just think people do do that. If anything, I think the WTA need to take responsibility here and need to really apologise for that hot mic on those practice courts. They've kind of stitched the players up there. Like it's Pagula, but maybe it could have been someone else.

55:39Matt Roberts: And look, I'm sure that's an innocent, I'm quite sure that's an innocent mistake, but it is a mistake. It is a mistake. And I think, you know, just hold your hands up and everyone will get it. I think probably if I'm trying to have a big, like nuanced take on a bit of drama like this, It's probably that the very sort of sanitized culture of PR and player opinions that have like taken over the sport where we hear everyone praising everyone all the time and talk, you know, saying how great everyone is. If if that hadn't quite happened, I don't think these quotes would seem quite so bad. I do feel like this in the Mazzetti-Berrettini thing, it does feel like we've been sort of thrown a stake after a famine, you know?

56:31Right. Like, because she was kind of spitting facts. I mean, like...

56:38Matt Roberts: Yeah, I reckon Mirandreva probably calls herself a diva, you know? Maybe not the humbling line, but like, it's a sort of, you know, it's like, somebody calling me arsey, I'll be like, oh, fuck off. But I'll also be like, yeah, okay, I get it. Oh, good to know. And, yeah, as you said, the drive by on Goff was, you know, a little bit shocking to me. It's true, though. And also they have a deep friendship, Goff and Padula. I'm sure that, you know, players are talking about each other all the time, I think. I think, honestly, my favourite part of this whole thing was People magazine reporting this and using a photo of Ostopenko instead of Pergoula.

57:29Like, for once, she's not involved. And yet...

57:34David Law: But do come back, because she definitely will be in other times.

57:40Matt Roberts: Yeah, we got this photo on file from the last tennis controversy that we reported on. Could we just use that? Yeah, great.

57:49David Law: yeah anything to say david not really i mean you know like i say i find most of it factually supportable um the only the only the only thing i do feel a bit about what she says that i don't agree with i don't i don't think conchita martinez is doing anything wrong really from what I've seen. Yeah, she's sort of mothering her and you've got to sometimes, you've got to sometimes put up with this stuff. You can't just read the riot acts all the time. I think she does a masterful job of directing Andrava in the right way.

58:34Matt Roberts: She's walking the line of carrot and stick, isn't she?

58:36David Law: Yeah, I like it. And I mean, listen, but I also don't, I don't mind Pagula having her own separate view. that's fine too and and look it's yeah i feel for her a bit because it wasn't intended for this to be something uh being discussed by us and everybody else but you know it's not that big a deal is it

58:59Matt Roberts: it's um it is funny i think what did you have you if you two ever been in a sending a whatsapp to the wrong to the wrong person situation i accidentally butt dialed somebody this year Yes, wasn't that when you were in Australia? While I was talking about them Oh wow You do both know about this and I can't say who it is to jog your memory but I did tell you about it I was thinking of another butt dial that you did this year Oh, which one was that? In Australia when you, didn't you like butt dial an ex-boyfriend? Oh, from the toilet? Yes No, excuse me, Matt. It was somebody I went on one hinge date with once three years ago.

59:50Okay. Yeah.

59:51Matt Roberts: Yeah. I've missed the course. From the loop. I'd forgotten about that. I've done it twice this year. But the other one I'm talking about they picked up.

1:00:04Yes. That is coming back to me now.

1:00:07Matt Roberts: Please tell me other people do this stuff. Come on. Help me out here. It can't just be me. I'm sweating. Come on. I've not done that, but I've definitely sent a message to the wrong group. I think I've realised. You didn't want to ask me. I don't think it's ever. Yeah, I did actually. Did you? Yes, I used an old WhatsApp group for our newsletter. Oh, come on. That's not dialing an old flame from a Starbucks toilet, is it?

1:00:44David Law: well I didn't realise that it was a competition

1:00:49Matt Roberts: I was just hoping for some you know misery loves company ok just me then right what about our schedule we still have two more pods this week no we have one more pod two including this one which isn't yet done we have a friends relived show recording tomorrow about the history of the ATP and WTA finals and some of our memories some of Matt's research. We've got a Pam voice note. Very excited about that show. We're recording that tomorrow and it'll be up for Friends of the Tennis Podcast later on tomorrow, Friday. Also, if you're a friend and you haven't yet listened to our Q &A show for yesterday, it was a belter.

1:01:30Matt Roberts: Really awesome selection of questions. If you'd like to become a friend and get to listen to that, then the link is in our show notes. We'll then be back on Monday with our next main feed show to discuss Paris and the WTA finals and to get more of Matt's Chennai takes. And then we will have our next show after Monday after the WTA finals group stage is complete, which will be Saturday morning.

1:02:02David Law: It's a week's time, is it? Or just over? Yeah, just over. Saturday morning. A rare Saturday pod.

1:02:08Matt Roberts: I think our possible earliest ever record. It begins with a seven. It begins with a seven. It's an early one. It's David time. Yeah, David, I'll be doing less talking than usual. Maybe it'll be our best ever pod. Folks, we have a mascot for today's show. Oh, it's a golden retriever. This is Buster, owned by Tommy and Knittin. Buster is a seven-year-old golden retriever from San Francisco. I stroked a golden retriever on my walk this morning, a one-year-old golden retriever puppy. And it was wonderful. Buster has the disposition of Ferdinand the Bull and is happy to sit through long tennis matches on the floor of our living room.

1:02:59Matt Roberts: His favourite active players are probably Yannick Sinner and Karolina Mukova. Not sure when Tommy and Nitin filled in the form for Buster, but let's presume Yannick Sinner was an active tennis player at the time. He's called a press conference for Tuesday. Did you see Yannick Sinner? Yeah, something to do with his sponsor, Allianz. Yeah, I suspect it's going to be very, very boring. I can't wait. I hope it's boring in a way. Yeah. I mean, he might be talking about some Magnus Norman stuff. Yeah. Yeah. just rest that knee and come back Yannick yeah Magnus Norman stuff and some Allianz stuff great I love a golden retriever this one that I stroked this morning he did that thing where they lean on you it's so lovely they're such handsome lovely dogs so thank you Buster for being our mascot for today's show maybe Karolina Urikova will win the WCA finals for you beating Irina Sabalenka in the group stage fingers crossed hello to our mascots Bodhi, Maisie and Roger we had a Roger picture this week he never disappoints Roger never ever hello to our top folks and executive producers Greg, Chris and Jeff and we'll head to Matt for some shout outs we have Christiane Savoie from New Brunswick, Canada.

1:04:38Matt Roberts: Excellent name, Christiane. How are we spelling Christiane? Is it Christiane hyphen Anne? No. Christiane said, I believe Caspar Ruth's father's name is Christiane. Very good. Christiane is like that, but with an E on the end. Very good, Christiane. still in Paris Caspar Rood yes he's been upgraded to the night session tonight given Berrettini had to withdraw unfortunately after he finally got a bit of form going he was due to play Alcaraz and that match has become Rood Struffy I'm sure that ticket buyers won't mind that their Alcaraz ticket has become a Rood Struff ticket Christiane Thank you very much for being a friend of the pod and for providing the Christian Rude comparison.

1:05:41And final shout out today is for Lars Graf.

1:05:46David Law: Hey, Lars. Hello, Lars. It's that one show a year where we do a Lars Graf shout out.

1:05:53Matt Roberts: Lars Graf, like Steffi Graf. and like Lars Graf the umpire the man himself I was going to say

1:06:02David Law: I was going to go with that one but

1:06:05Matt Roberts: I hope Christiane has enjoyed being in a in a couplet with Lars Graf what a treat Lars, Christiane thank you very much for being friends of the Tennis Podcast if you'd like to become a friend just in time to listen to our next edition of Tennis Relived and every past edition of Tennis Relived where we learn about the history of the sport, take note, Alexander Zverev, I've made that sound really boring. The episodes are fun as well as being, you know, important lessons. Then the link to become a friend is in our show notes. We are part of the Athletic Podcast Network. We're back on Monday. Thank you for listening.

1:06:45Matt Roberts: We'll speak to you then.

1:06:53Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, email, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work, around the work, and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. That's G-O-O dot G-L-E slash workspace with Gemini.

1:07:26David Law: Verizon knows that holiday math can be complicated. Okay, let's see. We got the four kids, four gifts each, six teacher gifts. Wait, oh, what did we get in? Sandy and the dogs. Oh, I can't forget the dogs. Know what doesn't need math? Simplicity plan from Verizon. One plan, one price. Just$30 a line per month for you or the whole family. The holidays are complicated. Shopping our best deals and switching to Verizon is simple. For new customers,$30 per line includes auto pay and switch discount. Additional taxes fees and terms apply.