WTA Finals - why is it weird and what’s up with Sabalenka?

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1:00Matt Roberts: Hello and welcome to the Tennis Podcast. It is bright and early on Saturday morning as we record this show. We're here to digest the group stages of the WTA finals in Indian Wells and look ahead to the semis and final. We'll also have a little look at the draw for the ATP finals in Turin. The draw was done on Thursday. That gets underway tomorrow. When I say bright and early, I really do mean that. We think we're setting an earliness recording record for today's show, which means we get peak David. No pressure, David, but you're like an anti-vampire. This is your time.

1:43David Law: Yes, I mean, I feel great. Whether that will actually translate into quality podcasting, let's find out. But no, this is my time. You're right.

1:51Matt Roberts: I'm worried David's going to be so excellent that the listeners are going to clamour for more pre-8am podcasts. And at that point, I will have to say it's been lovely, but good wishing you luck.

2:06David Law: Yeah, I did promise to be a bit worse, didn't I, in this one, just to sort of try to temper the enthusiasm.

2:13Matt Roberts: Matt, you're the reason we're all here pre-8am. Tell us why. It's not for them. this time.

2:22Catherine Whitaker: No, it's not. I'm going to see my friend Andy, who I've not seen in months because he and his wife had a baby daughter. I'm going to meet said baby daughter for the first time. And I've had this in the calendar for a while. And then a few weeks ago, it dawned on me, oh shit, we need to do a podcast on that day. So I love curfews so much. I've put a curfew on us for today and we've got to wrap this thing up in an hour.

2:48Matt Roberts: Which we will do. It's going to be a punchy show, folks. We have got takes about Indian Wells in the WTA finals. The WhatsApp group has been alive this week. Before we get on to our takes, let's start with a perspective from the ground in Indian Wells. Here is the Athletics' Ava Wallace, the brilliant Ava Wallace, reporting in for us with her impressions of the first six days of the tournament. Hello, Tennis Podcast. I am coming to you from Indian Wells, where I am taking shelter from the cool desert night in my nice warm car, which is parked next to a gorgeously garish Ford Bronco, painted the colors of the Czech flag that all week I have been pretending is Linda Noskova's because I think it fits her vibe.

3:37Aside from that, I have been thinking of the word I want to use to sum up these WTA finals for you guys. And I have landed on sleepy. For the Stop Gap WTA finals, which is kind of how I've been thinking of this event, I have a hard time believing that the WTA could have chosen a much better location on such short notice. And that's because the facilities of this tournament and the place that it's set in do a lot of the work of making this event feel special as is. The grounds are super nice. The stadium is top notch. Parking is great amenities. Food is excellent. It all feels up to a level that's appropriate for the WTA's signature event, this event that they're working really hard to try to get people to care more about and kind of believe in as a large scale tournament.

4:34It's the same thing with the crowd. This is a super Tennessee place. You walk to a coffee shop during the day and there's a lot of people toting tennis bags around. The bars and restaurants have tennis channel playing at night and you get the sense that it's that way year round. People have a knowledge and kind of a facility with the sport that you don't get everywhere. And those crowds are showing up for the day matches. And that kind of brings me to the sleepiness of this event. In large part, this is a retirement community. Like a shocking number of restaurants and bars closed by 9 p.m. Folks really shut down around here, especially in November, where we're a few weeks away from the start of the holiday season, where no one's really traveling, no one's really doing anything.

5:23So the crowds are great here during the day. They're certainly engaged. It's very obvious that people are enjoying being around tennis, being on the grounds, even if the energy is not kind of buzzy and frenetic. It is very calm, but there are people around. It's actually, it's really nice. It just doesn't feel kind of like a normal tennis sporting event. But when the sun starts to set, which it does around 4.30, people start filing out. The place empties out and then it is empty. Like we are in the middle of the desert and it feels quite cavernous, actually. This facility feels almost kind of carved out of the mountains.

6:06Like that's what you see when you look around and up. It's a really gorgeous setting. But it's a little bit ghost town-y. It's not walkable to bars and restaurants and other things. So when people go, all of the energy leaves with them. And then it gets cold. And then it gets quiet. And then it gets dark. And there's still one doubles match left to play. That's kind of what has me looking forward a little bit to Charlotte. Because it's not a glamorous tennis paradise like Indian Wells. But it is condensed in the business district where the arena is, where the convention center is. it's all walkable to hotels and bars and restaurants and cafes and businesses and things.

6:46I think there will be a palpable energy like walking around the city that you're missing a little bit here because it is California and you are spread out and it's, you know, it's the desolate desert at night. It's so dark here. I can't tell you guys. And that kind of brings me to my other observation is not only is the event a little bit sleepy, but the players are sleepy too. And I don't blame them. It is the end of a long year and everyone is super tired. Everyone is carrying injuries. Everyone is in a really good mood. And you ask players why and they say, well, because there are a lot of really nice incentives to being here.

7:25But the players have not been bringing the energy, which you guys have noted. Obviously, the matches have not been bringing the energy either, really, especially after that first day. so yeah that's that's what I'm thinking a sleepy stopgap WTA finals and I'm really looking forward to seeing how the WTA jazzes this thing up with a year of planning under its belt.

7:48Matt Roberts: She's so brilliant Ava thank you so much for that very informative report both tells us some things we didn't know and I think validates some impressions that we were having from afar. David, a sleepy stopgap WTA finals in the desolate desert is a summary of Ava's impressions. How would you summarise... Don't forget Ghost Town. Yes, sorry. How would you summarise your impressions from afar?

8:22David Law: Yeah, the thing is, when we first covered the event a week ago or nearly a week ago, straight after the Coco Gauff against Jessica Bagula match, We were high on this event from afar because I think the moment you turn it on, it's full of colour. It's vibrant green and purple and light blue in the sky and sun coming down. You just feel alive, really, after, well, the daytimes that we're having here, which are dark and dingy and autumnal. And that match made you feel alive. but as the week has gone on you've you've been like something's up something's up here something's not not quite right feels things don't feel right and they're not playing out right on the court then none of the matches are anything like the Goff and Begula why why isn't that why are they all one-sided why are they why are players just sort of tailing away and having no resistance and And then you're seeing players squint when they're at the far end from the camera.

9:26David Law: The sun is a real problem, the way it's setting. And look, it's the time of year. When you think when Cam Norrie won this event years ago in this sort of time of year, it was a bit weird. You know, the Masters Golf was weird at this time of year. It's not probably surprising when you put it that way. And look, I agree with her that this was absolutely the right decision for this year. And give me this over Saudi Arabia any day. But it doesn't quite work in terms of what I think it could be. And so I support the move to Charlotte and I hope it works just as she's outlining. Great to get that insight really from somebody who maybe understands it a bit more.

10:14David Law: and I know Ava was speaking at length to Valerie Camillo, the WTA CEO recently with Matt Futterman. And so I'm hopeful for that. But it is weird.

10:26Matt Roberts: Both in terms of vibe and in terms of tennis, right? Like the two are kind of on the tennis.

10:35David Law: Through the TV. Because we don't get the senses that Ava's described and that's why it's so nice to have her insight from on the ground. It looks so good on TV, but my word, the tennis has been surprisingly disappointing to me. Maybe it shouldn't be surprising, but it is disappointing.

10:52Matt Roberts: Yeah, I think I was reluctant to reach the conclusion that it's bad because I've so enjoyed having that sunshine streaming through my TV. And like for me, the tennis is on at the perfect time. It starts at eight o 'clock. I like to stay up late. I like to see sunshine. It feels like a shot of vitamin D in my vitamin D-deprived arm. So, yeah, I've so wanted to be like, yeah. And sort of the realisation that this is not, this is not, yeah. And we're watching something quite weird. I mean, sort of Jessica Pergula managed to bookend the group stage with some compelling matches. And we thank her for that service.

11:39Matt Roberts: and Svitolina Sabalenka yesterday was a match full of intrigue that I think we were all dialed into. But as a whole, Matt, the tennis has been messy.

11:51Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, and I've had the same experience of excited every day for eight o 'clock after the three hours of darkness. Right, great, get the telly on, the sunshine's beaming in, pumped.

12:03Matt Roberts: Get the faillade ready.

12:04Catherine Whitaker: Right. And then rinse and repeat. It's been just dud after dud. And I'm just watching players who I know are great and brilliant. And I've seen them play great matches against each other, just sort of fall apart in a mess of unforced errors, mostly. And it's led me to really thinking about why that is the case and had so many different sort of theories swirling around. I mean, I will say I don't think Indian Wells generally always produces necessarily the very best tennis that we see year round. It is a particular set of conditions. And I think it's a it's a it always looks great on the telly and it feels like tennis paradise.

12:48Catherine Whitaker: but I don't know. I haven't truly fact-checked this, but I think if you go back over the years and think of the best matches of a season, I don't know how often Indian Wells is necessarily cropping up. I think they're also using different balls at this tournament to what they normally use at Indian Wells, and it does seem like players have had a lot of difficulty controlling them. There's the usual stuff about end of season. Everyone's tired. Everyone's exhausted. I was running a counter theory at one point being like, Maybe they've taken too much of a break before these WTA finals, most of them, and they've had three or four weeks without playing and have they all lost form?

13:25Catherine Whitaker: But then, you know, Noskovo and Andreeva have shown that probably that isn't the case. I think the round robin weirdness, which we'll get into, always plays a part in the WTA finals. And then there are some individual circumstances like Kostiuk coming in as a replacement for Rabatkinner. That was about as different as you could get. Like you had the primed in form world number one being replaced by someone who has been injured recently and hasn't won a match since the US Open. And that gave the tournament a bit of a weird feel from the start. And then I do think the sun, as David talked about, is a big element.

14:02Catherine Whitaker: And we had some insight from Pam Shriver on the ground there talking about, you know, these outdoor sports at this time of year. The sun is in such a different place. It really is hard to adjust to. and I'm sure that's a factor as well. So I don't know what the most prevalent one of those is or if any of those theories are right at all, but it feels like all of these things coming together and, yeah, producing a series of pretty disappointing matches. And yet I am still quite excited about the semi-final line-up that we have and I know that come eight o 'clock today, I'm going to be getting the telly on again and I'm going to be excited.

14:40Matt Roberts: Yeah, same, absolutely. I'm in the same position. Let's focus on something positive for a moment. Let's talk about the good tennis we've seen. I feel like there have been two standout players so far in these WTA finals, and they are Mira Andreeva and Linda Nozkova. They're, of course, in the semifinal lineup. We have a first semifinal tonight of Mira Andreeva against Jessica Pagula, and then we have a second semifinal of Linda Nozkova against Alina Svitolina. Nozgaard didn't win through her group undefeated. She lost a nail-biter to Jessica Pagula, one of those round-robin matches where the two players, in terms of stakes, have, well, they're in very, very different situations.

15:25Matt Roberts: We'll come on to talk about that. But in terms of the tennis we've seen from those two, it has been standout, I think, David.

15:33David Law: Yeah, it has. Right from the very first round-robin matches that they both played, and Noskova beat Marta Kostiuk and Dreva just thrashed Alina Svitolina and just looked on it. You know, when she's... In fact, both of them, when they are in form, they really do stand out. There's just their talent level. It's not just how they're hitting the ball. It's just their understanding of everything. And right from that first moment, I was thinking, right, well, there's the final I want to see, really. I mean, in terms of just levels that I'm witnessing and all credits to Pegula for kind of winning against Nozkova to get through.

16:14David Law: But yeah, just, I mean, in Nozkova's case, the more I watch her, the more I realise just what a clever match player she is. And she and Andreva share in common this ability to use their skills and their touch, their softer skills, their touch skills aggressively. There was one combination Nozkova did against Pagula the other day, just sort of like half-paced, forehand-chopped return to bring Pagula in. It was like a designed play, and then she waited for the forehand and just sort of slotted it down the line. She didn't even hit it hard. It was the sort of thing, if you saw Federer do, you wouldn't bat an eyelid.

16:56David Law: Or Alcaraz, you know, these are standout skills, and they look head and shoulders the best players in this draw at the moment.

17:05Matt Roberts: Are you expecting a Nozga Varandreva final, Matt? And if so, who would you tip?

17:11Catherine Whitaker: I think I am expecting that. I do think one of the reasons I'm excited about the semi-final line-up is it does feel like Pagula and Svitolina have found form during the group stage. You know, like Svitolina was really poor for the first three sets she played of this tournament and managed to turn it around against Mukova, helped a lot by Mukova falling off. But within that, Svitolina found some form and she started hitting a lot more aggressively and she carried that through to the Sabalenka match, which I'm sure we'll talk more about. So I think, you know, she's shown some promise there and Pagula, as you said, has really done well to make it through that group and play a couple of good matches.

17:54Catherine Whitaker: And, you know, she's got some of the sort of soft hand skills that I think are quite underrated as well, Pagula. And I'm really intrigued to see her against Andreeva. You know, they've not played each other. So getting it off the back of all the diva drama from a week ago feels like the tennis gods giving us something there, which I'm very pleased about.

18:17Matt Roberts: Except they've made up and it's fine, Matt. I know, and I'm pleased on it. If the tennis gods really liked us, they would give us some proper sassy beef.

18:28Catherine Whitaker: Right. Like on a human level, I'm pleased that they've both seemed fine with it because they were stitched up by the hot might there. But come on, it would have been nice to have at least had one match.

18:40Matt Roberts: One spicy match.

18:42Catherine Whitaker: Exactly. Yeah, then you can do a TikTok together. Fine. Right. It feels a very appropriate semi-final lineup actually for this year. like Sabalenka's not there and Shvontek's not there and even Goff. You've got the two new Grand Slam winners with Andreeva and Noskova and I think I've been really impressed by how comfortable those two have both felt at this event playing it for the first time. I think playing it for the first time as major champions must really make you feel like you belong rather than necessarily just getting in as the eighth in the race or the seventh in the race but not having sort of really won the big events.

19:19Catherine Whitaker: but to answer your question I do think that will be the final and I think at this stage I would probably just go with Andreeva as being slightly more convincing I think you know if I think about the way she served out that opening set against Sabalenka with the three aces you know and that shot her serve has really come to the fore and when she's hitting her forehand like she is There's kind of nowhere to go against her. I've been really impressed with them both. But at this stage, I guess I would give a slight edge to Andreeva. But I don't feel strongly. I'm excited.

20:00Matt Roberts: I don't know how much of it is conditions related, but the Andreeva forehand has looked kind of hitch free this week in Indian Wells. It looks like there's a very high bounce to me. And as you said, Matt, they're having issues with controlling the ball, doesn't it? It does look like the ball is rearing up on these players a lot. So, yeah, I mean, it can't not be a factor. But she's looked, I haven't had my heart in the mouth with the Mirandreva forehand this week. And obviously the backhand is a dream and she's serving like Pete Sampras. So, yeah, it feels like there's just nowhere to go with Mira Andreeva at the moment.

20:44Matt Roberts: The injuries and the withdrawals, David, we've had, well, we obviously had Robackina pulling out on the eve of the tournament. Kostjevic coming in and being poor, quite frankly. You know, her matches have largely been duds. I know the match against Goff was kind of thrilling because of the Goff comeback from 1-5 down in the second set. But it was a weird, messy match. Like it was thrilling, but it was not high quality. So Kostiuk's been a bit of a tough scene. Mukova was a tough scene. Ended up withdrawing ahead of her final group stage match yesterday. Schneider comes in and, you know, that's a very tough assignment to come in in the final stages of the groups and play the informed player.

21:33And it was a total flop.

21:36Matt Roberts: I don't know what you can do about withdrawals and injuries and the high risk of them. I don't know whether that's just an inevitability for this event, both because of where it is in the season, in a very long season, and because of how heavily incentivised players are to play, even if they're carrying something. You know, this is serious money for all these players. So maybe there's just no way around it, but it has been a bummer.

22:11David Law: You can make it knockout and you can make it 16-player events. Well, we're going to come on to that, David. Well, yeah, I mean, I'm sorry. I hate round probably more today than I ever have. and I think it's a large part of the problem. But yeah, I mean, I'm afraid that these players are way better than what they showed and I don't criticize them for it. I mean, it is so hard coming in to an event that you're kind of trying to convince yourself you're supposed to be ready for, but I mean, come on, chances are they'll be all right and you won't have to play. It's just all very mentally, I think that that is all a very difficult challenge.

22:48David Law: and also you're playing against, in Schneider's case, you're playing against the informed player who's just had two matches and been destroying players that are at the top of the game, you know. So, yeah, it's just, well, we covered it in Tennis Relived in our ATP and WCA finals show and the 98 one that I was referencing where Rios pulled out and Albert Costa came in and looked like he hadn't played tennis in months, you know, it's just one of those. it is just strange.

23:20Matt Roberts: Okay, well, let's get into the format stuff because maybe it's just our perception, but it feels like more than ever, the round-robbling format has made itself a main character of the week in the tournament so far, brackets not complimentary. And we do have sort of the looming spectre of the move to Charlotte next year and the assumption that the format is going to have to change whether the WTA wants it to or not. And because of that, obviously the players are privy to information that we're not or we weren't. A week ago, we basically had Coco Gough all but confirming that the format will be changing next year.

24:09Matt Roberts: She told the reporter Christian's court the scenarios. I know they make sense, but they're kind of stupid. If I win my match on Thursday and I still don't qualify, I'm like, it's OK. It's cool. I'm looking forward to next year. I can't say much, but everybody knows that has to change. And that is the precise scenario we ended up with, Matt. Coco Goff did win her match on Thursday. She won it in straight sets with this extraordinary fight back from 5-1 down in the second set, having taken what looked like a pretty serious and distressing medical timeout midway through that second set to have some treatment on, looked like the lower back area.

24:51Matt Roberts: She looked like she was in some pain and distress during that medical timeout. So she fights tooth and nail to get the job done in straight sets. Jessica Begula then goes ahead and wins. Fantastic effort from her as well. She does it from match point down against the form player of the group, Linda Nozkova. so they're both on two wins and one defeat Coco Goff won their head-to-head and still didn't qualify yeah and coming off her you know comeback win against Kostiuk she she gives the interview and

25:25Catherine Whitaker: she's like well you know I'll either be here on Saturday and ready to fight for this title or I will be at a music festival in California and you know I'm fine with that either way and And it was just this very weird feeling for someone, you know, to be in that situation, having just, you know, fought so hard to win and come back. And she was a point away, I think, twice from having done enough to make it through the group. If she'd taken her set point against Pagula in the first match, she'd have got through. Or if Noskova had taken her match point against Pagula, she would have got through. And look, I think there are people out there who like those scenarios and the round robin format and the fact that you get to see them play each other and you're guaranteed to see them three times, assuming they stay fit.

26:19Catherine Whitaker: You know, I think there probably was a reason why they moved to round robin for this format all those years ago. And I don't necessarily think that this round robin has been more confusing or worse than other round robins. I think you're right that the reason it's so prevalent is because we all kind of know the format's changing. The players have talked about it. That has sparked conversation. But generally, the way I feel about this is I think how all of us feel about this in that I just prefer tennis when it's knockout. And the stakes, you know what the stakes are going into a match. And I am with Coco Goff.

27:00Catherine Whitaker: I'm excited about the format changing next year. We don't know what it's going to change to. There's speculation that it might be 16 players knockout. There's speculation that it could still be eight players and just knockout. Maybe there'll be something in between. We really don't know. But yeah, personally, I like knockout better. I know that other sports do round robin, but I think it's particularly a problem in this individual sports. And as you said, the stakes being so different for Noskova and Pagula, that was still a really good match. I enjoyed it, but I would have enjoyed it more if everything was on the line for both of them.

27:44Catherine Whitaker: And knowing that Noskova was already through as top of the group does take some of the edge off that for me. Maybe it doesn't for other people, but it does for me. And I don't like players having to lean on other players to determine their fates and that other player is in a match against someone who doesn't have everything to play for. It just all feels a bit weird and I would prefer it if it was knockout all the way through and I think the depth of the WTA is such that you could increase the number of players in this event and it wouldn't feel like a massive drop-off in quality. You know, there's players ranked between 9 and 16 and you chuck them into this field And I'm thinking, well, that makes it even better.

28:27Catherine Whitaker: So whether they do that, we'll see. But yeah, I do think it's been an obviously big talking point because of the way it's going to change. But I have felt like this about Ram Robin for a while. And, you know, we've had scenarios at finals in the past where it's come down to game percentage and sets one, all that kind of stuff. And I just don't like doing the maths. I know that some people think it sort of adds and makes this event different and helps it stand out. But I'd be willing to at least try going back to the format that this event had in its absolute prime when it was at Madison Square Garden and it was a knockout event.

29:09Matt Roberts: And if you'd like to hear more about that in the history of the finals, thank you for the segue here, Matt. Then we have a show on exactly that recorded yesterday. No, two days ago. So who knows when it was recorded? It's too early to figure it out. But we deep dived into the history of the ATP and WTA finals and it was such a fun show. And that is up now for Friends of the Tennis Podcast. Madison Keyes, by the way, said on Sky, and she's been a revelation as a pundit. She's been fantastic, pundit and commentator. She described the format change as maybe the worst kept secret on tour. and she's obviously clued and plugged into what's going on.

29:50Matt Roberts: So it does seem like it's going to happen. I'd love to know if what was chicken and what was egg. I'd love to know if they've done this deal in Charlotte with the caveat that you can only have the venue for five days so therefore they've had to rethink the format or if the Charlotte bid was a front runner and the five-day situation didn't bother them because they were intending to change the format anyway. I would love to know, personally. I hope it was the latter. Maybe we'll never know. Still a couple of big talking points from Indian Wells so far to get into. We've got the double-stop date you're on and we've got the kind of ongoing question, which now has maybe both a question mark and an exclamation mark at the end of it.

30:40Matt Roberts: what is going on with Irina Sabalenka. That's coming up in part two.

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33:45Matt Roberts: Welcome back to part two of today's tennis podcast. Staying in Indian Wells for a little longer and focusing in now on the former world number one, Irina Sabalenka, whose year has finished maybe in fitting style. She has once again failed to win this title. It's still a trophy missing from her cabinet and she has failed this time to progress past the group stages. She was 4-1 up on Mira and Drava in the opening set of their match, then lost 11 games in a row to lose the match 6-4, 6-love. There was the brilliant win from Alina Svitolina last night over Sabalenko. She also won six straight games in a row against Sabalenko to win the decider of their match 6-1.

34:40Matt Roberts: We had the reports midway through the tournament as a result of speculation as people noticed the absence of Max Mierney and her physical trainer from her box. And it has been reported that she has stopped working now with both those two. So turbulence, upheaval in the coaching box. And we now know that she will end this year as world number three, with Mira Andreeva guaranteed to overtake her. David, we've asked the question and mused a lot over the last few weeks and months, what's going on with Irina Sabalenka. And maybe she'll come back at the start of 2027 and look like she did in March of this year.

35:30Matt Roberts: But right now it feels like quite a big question with a very uncertain answer.

35:40David Law: Yeah, and I'd say that had we not had the US Open when she looked like herself, this would feel like new normal and that she'd have it all to do to prove otherwise. I still am pausing until I see what she looks like in the Australian Open when she's had a proper off-season to reboot and rest up I mean I do think she's had quite a while to get ready for this event but I still think an off-season and then coming out in Australia where she's always had so much success, that is the big next moment if this was to repeat there then I think all bets are off and it's a crisis because it kind of looks like a crisis now for Irina Sabalenka.

36:26David Law: The manner in which she loses her way and then just cannot get the train back on the track is alarming to me. It's happened repeatedly. She's had three sets that she's lost six love this year. She has numerous matches where she just sort of loses half a dozen games in a row. She had had two of them against Vecilina, where she just sort of suddenly loses her way. And I just, I'm trying to figure out, well, what is it? I end up thinking it's a loss of belief. It's a loss of confidence. And she loses her resistance. I used that word at the start of the show. I think that that tends to happen at the end of year finals.

37:11David Law: People don't have the same resistance that they would have earlier on in the year. But with her, she just can't lock in to the basics of the sport. Madison Kies, who you mentioned, she said she's trying to pull the trigger too early now in rallies. And she's not going for the big targets that coaches will ask you to go for. To hit the ball hard, but into big targets so that you don't miss. Then she misses. Then she gets furious and it gets worse. And you can just see the body language is just, I'm over this. And I think it's going to take some recovering, really. I don't think it's beyond her by any means.

37:55David Law: And like I say, let's have a look in Australia. But I think that this is a year that we haven't seen since she was hitting 20 double faults a match.

38:04Matt Roberts: Yeah, I think I potentially feel even more concerned or more down about where she's at because I see the US Open less of an outlier in this trend. and more of a couple of weeks that was consistent with the track. I mean, extraordinary that she still reached the final of that tournament despite everything that was going on. But she was off. She was, sorry to James Hansen from The Athletic, who hates vibes-based tennis analysis, but the Sabalenka vibes were off throughout that US Open. And as I say, she's so good, she still reached the final. But I would say that tournament still had most of the hallmarks of what we've seen for the last six months from Arena Sabalenka, which is, frankly, from where she was, Matt, a bit of a tailspin.

39:03Catherine Whitaker: yeah i mean i certainly agree with you that the vibes were off like for the first 10 days of that tournament and there was a couple of incidents in the press conferences weren't there and even her wins in the opening few rounds weren't you know necessarily her best tennis but i really did think she improved in the quarterfinals and semifinals and i i thought that the way she played there against Noskova and Pagula, who are, you know, two players who are now still going strong at the end of the year. They were in form and she managed to really lock in in the big moments and play her best tennis under pressure.

39:42Catherine Whitaker: And even in the final, I thought she did a lot of good things, but was beaten by the better player in Elena Rabakina. I did come out of the US Open thinking, OK, right, there's been a real, maybe not she's back but there's been a big step to getting towards being back and since then it's been it's actually been worse I think the loss she took to Anne Lee she she was struggling with her with an injury on her knee she did have that taped for her second match here as well and that did was maybe bothering her but I think the vibes to go back to that word were as were as bad this tournament as they have been all year they were awful like she was terrible I mean not only did she lose 11 games in a row against Andreeva.

40:27Catherine Whitaker: She lost 45 of the last 55 points of that match.

40:32Matt Roberts: It was a tank. It was a tank at the end, wasn't it?

40:36Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, like she had gone, completely gone.

40:39Matt Roberts: You know, whether she was sort of deliberately trying to lose points or not, I don't know. But she had mentally left that goal. Checked out.

40:47Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, totally. Rushing. And Andreeva was brilliant, but Sambalenka was awful. And, you know, even against Svitolina, I think we saw that match at the start of the year in Australia. And interestingly, I heard Svitolina on Tennis Channel say that she actually took a lot from that match. She thought she played quite well against Sabalenka in that Australian Open match, but she got blown away. But she got blown away because Sabalenka was unbelievable. And it felt like there was nothing Svitolina could do in that matchup when Sabalenka was playing like that. A few, was it nine months on, 10 months on.

41:20Catherine Whitaker: And, you know, Svitolina is still playing really well. And Sabalenka has totally lost it. And now that matchup looks different. And Dreva was also someone that Sabalenka used to really dominate as well. So we're seeing changes in that head to head. And I think I'm with David in that I need to give it an off season and I need to give it her best time of year. You know, she's been so good. Oh, I agree about that. She's so good in Australia, but there's going to be a pressure as well, right? Like I think over half of her points are made up of what she did in Australia and what she did at the Sunshine Double last year.

41:59Catherine Whitaker: If this continues, if this slump continues even into the first few months of next season, she's going to have a mighty fall in the rankings because she's not got much to back it up after that. So she's coming out with a lot of pressure at the start of the season and she is by far and away, I think, the most interesting player going into next year. Like what is going to be up with Irina Sabalenka next year? Because we've kind of compared it to Sviontek, haven't we, a little bit? And I've said this before, but it's been easier for me to pinpoint stuff that's happened in Svantec's career and Svantec's life to be like, oh, well, I can see why that has maybe led to a bit of a slump.

42:43Catherine Whitaker: The Olympics, the drug situation, the split with a coach, the change of game style, all of this. It's been surprising to me how far Svantec has fallen, but I can kind of make sense of it. With Sabalenka, it was like she was having kind of not quite the season of her life because she didn't win the Australian Open at the start of the year. But her form was looking as good as it has ever been with three titles from her first four tournaments. And then it just went and she hasn't been able to get it back. And I still don't really know what went up and what happened.

43:17Matt Roberts: Six match points against Haley Baptiste. I think that's it.

43:21Catherine Whitaker: But I'm surprised that it's derailed her this much. Like there's got to be something else going on because I agree with David. It looks like the confidence is just totally, totally gone in her game and what she's doing out there and the frustrations boiling over. Yeah, it's extraordinary actually.

43:39Matt Roberts: Yeah. I mean, it's a compelling watch, but it's, yeah, agree, extraordinary. The doubles in Indian Wells. We have semifinal number one of Defani, Gabi Dabrowski and Louisa Stefani taking on Katarina Siniarkova and Taylor Townsend. That's a big yes, please, of a semifinal, isn't it? And then we have a second semi of Guom Lidenovic against Irani Paolini, also a good one. We've had a tough scene with Nicole Melikar-Martinez who hurt her knee and had to retire from her group stage match alongside Christina Bookshire. They were taking on Katarina Siniakova and Taylor Townsend. And it's one of those where you hope that it's not as bad as it looks.

44:27Matt Roberts: And unfortunately, it seems to maybe have been even worse that it looks. She's confirmed on Instagram that she had an MRI after the match and it's a fully torn ACL along with some other damage. And she's saying she's trying to be positive even though there are occasional negative thoughts. that's a devastating injury. And yeah, wish her so well. That's just the most brutal end to a season. On a slightly more amusing and uplifting note, we've had Jelena Ostapenko picking new beef with a much beloved WTA Tour player. This time, Gabby Dabrowski, David.

45:11David Law: Yeah. And just to say on the doubles generally, The doubles tournament has been really fantastic. And you don't have the sun as an issue because the light's gone. As Ava was saying, it gets a bit dead around the grounds, but there's still vibes and atmosphere in the stadium itself. And some of the matches have been brilliant. And this one went to a deciding set tie break. And, you know, we're slightly lamenting the fact that Andreva and Pegula made it up so quickly. Well, enter Yelena Rostopenko, who gets a bit irritated at something that Gabby Debrowski does and then just does a complete walk past when she offers her hand for a sort of handshake.

45:48David Law: And great commentary from Kevin Skinner, who just sort of said, well, you know, Dabrowski's through and you're going home.

46:01Matt Roberts: Remind me, who was it at Wimbledon that Osteopenko picked a fight with at the end of the match and coaches got involved? no or no it was doubles it was doubles wasn't it and doubles partners got in for awkward doubles partners i feel like maybe edouard roger vaselin was involved yes that rings a bell now yeah and

46:20David Law: there were people in the background packing up their stuff while the beef was going on and was it hang on was it laura siegmund involved i think it was yeah because siegmund was playing with roger

46:32Matt Roberts: Vasselin who was awkwardly...

46:33Catherine Whitaker: Didn't Ostapenko hit Siegmund on the full with like a dry volley or something?

46:39David Law: And Siegmund referred to her as this one. Yes! Yes!

46:43Matt Roberts: Yes, David! Make sure that comes up in the Review of the Year show. We mustn't lose the ancient texts. Yeah, the double has been good.

46:57Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, it has. It's been nice to see Paolini playing really well. they went 3-0 did Irani and Paulini and Gwo and Mladenovic had two matches that were 12-10 in the match tie break they were the right side of one of them last night to get through and they were the right side earlier on as well when Shea absolutely took over the doubles but then missed I mean honestly the most extraordinary miss on match point I've ever seen just like the easiest put away and she somehow made a mess of it And, you know, they managed to sneak through Graham Ndenovich. So, yeah, there's been entertaining matches in the doubles for sure.

47:38Matt Roberts: Okay, that is it for part two. We'll be back in part three with an ATP finals preview.

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48:58Matt Roberts: Welcome back to part three of today's tennis podcast. The fafftastic draw for the ATP finals was made on Thursday. Matt, you have a train to catch in 24 minutes. So I need your analysis in part three of the show to be not fafftastic, but please do tell us how egregious the faff was at the draw.

49:22Catherine Whitaker: some of the worst faff i've i've ever experienced i thought oh okay i'll put the drawer on while i'm doing some stuff around the house it took 50 minutes to actually get to the drawer there were speech after speech for a man in suit there was a video sponsors people from turin people from italian tennis gaudenzi oh it was awful zero out of ten for their draw

49:51Matt Roberts: the outcome of the draw was we have a John McEnroe group that features Alexander Zverev Ben Shelton Artifis and Raphael Hodar and we have an Ivan Lendl group which features Carlos Alcaraz Daniel Medvedev Flavio Caballi and Francis Tiafoe David how do we feel about how this draw has shaken out.

50:12David Law: Yeah, on paper, I like it. I was kind of hoping that Tiafoe didn't land in Zverev's group because those tend to not be very competitive matches and I like Alcaraz against Tiafoe as a contest. I think Feas has got it all to do because he likes the big wind-up and he's going to be playing Hodder and Zverev and Shelton. I think that's tough. Very interested to see whether whether left-handed Shelton indoors can get anywhere against Verev. I think it's a good draw. I'm looking forward to this.

50:45Matt Roberts: Did you see Artifis yesterday at the sort of launch event? He certainly sort of dressed like and had the swagger of a man who backs himself, I would say.

50:58David Law: You surprised me.

50:59Matt Roberts: Have you seen the footage? No. Have you seen it, Matt?

51:04Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, the shades getting out of the car.

51:07Matt Roberts: Yeah, it's pitch black. outside. What did you think of the vibe, the styling overall?

51:16Catherine Whitaker: Overall, I thought pretty good, actually. I thought they got it right. I thought a lot of the suits looked great, actually. Yeah, it was, I mean, a world away from what the WTA came up with.

51:34Matt Roberts: It was a similar, I mean, there's only so much, there's less you can do with with men, well, I mean, not technically, but generally, it felt quite similar to what the Leva Cup were trying to do, but they'd sort of tried less hard.

51:50Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, they learned from the Leva Cup's mistakes, I think. And there were still some double-breasted suits going on, but they were styled a lot better and they fitted. They looked cool, I think. Yeah, they did look cool.

52:03Matt Roberts: And I liked the sort of the leather jackets draped over the Flavio Caboli had that going on, didn't he? And I think Alkaraz as well. Yeah, it was cool. Medvedev had a long sort of overcoat type situation. It was good. I thought they did really well. So we start on Sunday afternoon with Zverev against Hodar and then Sunday night will be Shelton against Fies. And then on Monday we have Alkaraz-Tiafoe in the afternoon session and then Kabali-Medvedev in the evening session. Just on Alcaraz, we have had reports that he stopped his practice early on Friday because of a stomach issue. We understand it's kind of illness rather than injury.

52:48Matt Roberts: And he was seemingly well enough by the evening to attend that sort of launch event and take the iconic photo and do press. He didn't attend the number one gala last night, but I don't think he was ever going to attend that event. So I wouldn't read disaster into that. It's not ideal, but if it is illness, there is time to get well again, especially as he doesn't play till Monday. We also have Juan Carlos Ferreiro in town with Ben Shelton, David.

53:27David Law: Mm.

53:28Matt Roberts: That's a fun round call.

53:29David Law: Yeah, it's going to be interesting, isn't it? Yeah. I actually think Shelton's going to come through that group. My picks, you haven't asked for them. I'll give them to you anyway. Well, I was about to.

53:39Matt Roberts: Yeah.

53:40David Law: I'll go for, I actually think it will be all the biggest names. I think it will be Zverev and Shelton, and it'll be Alcaraz Medvedev. You're not backing Feast? No, not on the surface against this opposition. and he really did look short against Fritz the other day. I don't think it suits him. I think he can. He can beat them. I think what's really interesting, I think both Hodder and Feast can get wins in this group. I don't look at them and think, oh, they're the lame ducks of the group. But on balance, I'd still probably have to go for Zverev and Shelton. They should get through, which makes it interesting to me because maybe they won't.

54:21David Law: and so that could be a fun group. But yeah, I'd go for that. I think it probably will be as Varev against Alcaraz's final and I think Alcaraz would win.

54:30Matt Roberts: Matt, who are you going for to come through the groups to win the thing?

54:38Catherine Whitaker: Boring, but I do agree. I'm excited to see Alcaraz-Cabali in Italy. I think that could be a fun vibe if Cabali's fit. And I hope that that match happens when they both have, you know, stakes, you know, like that could be the third match. And one of them, you know, could be through, one of them could be out. Like it could be, it might not be everything that I'm hoping it is going to be. I like how the groups have shaken out as well. I was kind of hoping to see Alcaraz Hodar. I take David's point about Tiafoe. Alcaraz is generally quite good and Tiafoe plays well against him, but just haven't seen Alcaraz Hodar.

55:20Catherine Whitaker: and I was kind of thinking that maybe we could here. I mean, maybe we still will. But yeah, I'm looking at that and it's hard to see Alcruz not going 3-0 in that group, to be honest, and actually 5-0. Like, I think he's going to win the thing.

55:38Matt Roberts: Doubles group, we have a Tom Woodbridge group which features Harry Heliovara, Henry Patton, Marcelo Aravalo and Mate Pavic. What are the first names of Arabaj and Olivetti? SOS. We have Aribarge and Olivetti. We have Luth and Matos. And in the Mark Woodford group, we have Christian Harrison and Ken Skubsky. Why have I started off saying first names again? I think I know all the first names in this group. It's not Ken. What did I say? Did I say Ken? It's early, guys.

56:18Matt Roberts: Christian Harrison. Did I get the right Harrison? Yeah. Well, they've all got brothers. I want to see Ryan Harrison and Ken Skubsky.

56:25David Law: Stick up at this time of the morning.

56:28Matt Roberts: Christian Harrison and Neil Skubsky against, no, not against, but with in a group, will be against at some point. Marcel Grenoilles and Horatio Zabaios. We have Simone Bolelli and Andrea Vavasori and Kevin Kravitz and Tim Putz. Nailed it. Right then, folks, in terms of our plans, as I said, our most recent Tennis Relived show is up now for Friends of the Tennis Podcast. We also have open nominations for the Barge Awards and we have our Barge Awards show coming up in December. So if you'd like to have some input into that and the winners, then head to the barge now if you're a friend of the Tennis Podcast or become a friend of the Tennis Podcast and head to the barge to have your say.

57:18Matt Roberts: We have our next show on Monday. That show is live at 6.30 p.m. UK time. You can do the maths for us on what time that is locally for you because Matt has a train to catch. But we've decided on 6.30pm in order to avoid a clash with the singles match in Turin, which will be Kabbali Medvedev. So it'll be us as the appetizer and then Flavio Kabbali and Daniel Medvedev as the main course. What an evening's entertainment, folks. So do join us live on YouTube if you fancy that. Matt, do we have time for a mascot?

57:59Catherine Whitaker: I'm going to say no.

58:04Matt Roberts: Casey

58:05Catherine Whitaker: you're going to have to wait

58:07Matt Roberts: till the next show little teaser for you there hello to our mascots Bodie, Maisie and Roger hello to our top folks and executive producers Greg, Chris and Jeff I'm going to guess we don't have time for shout outs either so I'll just say we are part of the Athletic Podcast Network good luck catching your train Matt Roberts thank you for listening and all for watching folks we're back live on Monday evening. We'll see you then.

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