Alcaraz and Sinner circle each other with titles

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0:32Matt Roberts: AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into. That's why it's no surprise that more than 85 % of the 14500 use the ServiceNow AI platform. While other platforms duct tape tools together, ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data, workflows and AI, connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters most. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people at servicenow.com. Hi, this is Sid from Chicago, and you're listening to the unrivaled Catherine, David and Matt on the Tennis Podcast.

1:23Matt Roberts: Well hello and welcome to the Tennis Podcast on this fine Wednesday morning. I'm Catherine Whittaker. I'm joined by the unrivaled Matt Roberts. How are you doing Matt?

1:33Catherine Whitaker: I'm very well thank you and now even better thanks to Sydney's excellent intro there. What a nice boost on this Wednesday morning.

1:44Matt Roberts: Yeah, we have a new hype man and it's Sid. You've got the job, Sid. We love you. Thank you very much for that excellent introduction to the show today. If you'd like to introduce a show just like Sid, you don't have to call us unrivaled, but it is actively encouraged. Then you can become a friend of the pod, get yourself an intro or a shout out as well tennis.supportingcast.fm and of course we'll pop the link in our show notes as well hello David also unrivaled I know I could get used to this it seems like I've got

2:18David Law: I've got sort of competition for hype man material so bring it on Sid

2:25Matt Roberts: yeah thank you Sid we're going to try not to be too smug over the course of today's show just a quick bit of housekeeping last few tickets remaining for our live show in Wrexham, Wales everyone knows where Wrexham is because of Ryan Reynolds but anyway, it's in Wales it is on Wednesday, October the 22nd if you'd like to come and see the three of us for a night of tennis chat, no doubt some dodgy predictions and maybe a backhand list update don't want to put the pressure on Matt He doesn't appreciate external pressure on the backhand list, but I'm just throwing that in there as a bit of a tease because we do have tickets to shift.

3:06Matt Roberts: The link to buy those tickets is in our show notes, or you can go to the Eventbrite page and type in Tennis Podcast Wrexham. And we hope to see lots of you there on Wednesday, October 22nd. We are very excited about it. It's my homeland. I've got lots of family in North Wales. So we've done Shrewsbury, where I was born. Now we're doing North Wales. It's sort of a Catherine Whitaker origin story tour. We have had quite a week. Tennis has had quite a week. We've got lots to get into. We will be talking about tennis as much as sort of there is a big part of our hearts that are still in Long Island and Bethpage and with the European Ryder Cup team who are, I hope, still celebrating.

3:55Matt Roberts: I hope they're still on that bus. Oh, God. I don't know where that bus goes from and to. That journey seems interminable. But, I mean, I wouldn't want to get off that bus either, the Ryder Cup party bus.

4:08Catherine Whitaker: It is quite a tennis situation, though, because there's a golf event at St Andrews this week where certainly I know Tommy Fleetwood is playing because friend of the pod, Lynn, her husband bumped into Tommy Fleetwood at St Andrews yesterday. That is how I know that.

4:28Matt Roberts: I hope he was really hungover still. Did he look rough?

4:33Catherine Whitaker: He didn't actually.

4:37Matt Roberts: Gosh, that's so tennis. I thought golf sort of had a slightly better grip on itself than tennis with its schedule, but apparently not. David, we had a lot of fun, didn't we, watching the Ryder Cup?

4:50David Law: Yeah, I mean, I think that did take up my, basically my whole life for three days, whether it was watching on TV or listening on BBC Radio 5 Live in the car, taking people to various places the way one has to do as a dad. But, you know, it was just incredible sporting drama. And I think, you know, it actually, as much fun as I had and as much stress as there was on the finals day. I mean, I think that is the point of it, really, isn't it? The things it makes you feel. And it did make me further reflect on all of our existential chat that we weren't going to have a week before about the Labour Cup.

5:37David Law: And as a result of that, I'd been doing a lot of thinking about that show anyway and conversations I'd had since with Matt Futterman about, you know, where he comes from on it and and the point that I've I've always felt is that in tennis I think I'm slightly envious of the Ryder Cup as a as a tennis person who works in this sport and I've sort of always wanted to have that and the Lever Cup was promised as that in a way at the start and and actually that was never fair that was never fair for them to promise that and it was never fair to expect that and actually I've realized I think I've come a bit full circle now after giving the Leiva Cup and Roger Federer in particular a hard time for not being the Ryder Cup and actually I'm going to try to just treat it as what it is which is a great time.

6:28David Law: Matt Futterman was making the point to me that actually maybe after all the important stuff that has happened in the year with the Grand Slams and the stress and everything else that actually maybe three days where it's not life and death and it are not not the sport necessarily is but it was all I was thinking about for the last three days during the Ryder Cup. I couldn't think about anything else. And actually, it's quite nice not to have to worry and just enjoy it. So I'm going to try next year to look at it differently. And I'm actually going to go to the Labour Cup and try to have the Matt Futterman experience and just treat it for what it is.

7:07Matt Roberts: I agree. And I'm going to try and do the same. The problem is the tournament are trying to make you treat it the other way. Well, I'm not going to worry about that. That's the issue, isn't it? They're trying to tell you it matters.

7:17David Law: Yeah, and I think the thing is, I still think...

7:20Matt Roberts: Judging it on their terms, right?

7:22David Law: Well, their initial terms, but I don't think the fans are doing that. I think the people that are going and watching are just enjoying it. And I'm going to try to think of it a bit more like that, personally.

7:35Matt Roberts: We can poll them next year at the O2. I was watching Lady Gaga last night, trying to picture... the laver cup happening yeah actually i mean compare it to lady gaga the um the i mean the

7:50David Law: events i still i still think the billy jenking cup and the davis cup are the ones that that that are comparable in terms of how they make you feel mikhail penforsh i was reading the swedish player he was comparing the european spirit to what he remembers it being in the sort of 80s and and the truth is that lies at their door particularly when you think of that cosmos deal that they did a few years ago and the hash they made of that um maybe maybe tennis just is never going to have anything quite like the Ryder Cup but my god did I enjoy those three days that

8:23Matt Roberts: we've just had yeah it was great we tried to squeeze some tennis watching in amongst it let's talk about the tennis that's been happening over the past week and let's start in Tokyo with the ATP 500 event there. Won by Carlos Alcaraz. He beat Taylor Fritz 6-4, 6-4 in the final. The big rematch of their Labour Cup meeting. Won by Taylor Fritz. Many speculated that was meaningful. Who can say whether they were right? Bit of an eventful week for Carlos Alcaraz. Had a big scare, big injury scare in the early stages of his opening match in Tokyo against Sebastian Byers. It looked bad at the time. Went over on his ankle, got treatment on it, was having some back and forth with his team, played through it, played an absolute wonder shot that has done the round on social media, done the rounds on social media in a subsequent round.

9:26Matt Roberts: But you could see him wince in pain afterwards. I actually found it as incredible as that shot was. I found it quite hard to sort of delight in watching it back on social media in the way that I often do enjoy with Carlos Alcraz because I could see that it was causing him pain. And I was sort of so worried about his physical positions he throws himself into sometimes to pull off these shots. But yeah, won the tournament despite it all. Beat Zizu Berg, Nakashima, Kasper Rude in probably the tightest match of the week. And then a tight two setter against Taylor Fritz in the final, his eighth title of the season.

10:09Matt Roberts: Carlos Alcaraz, Matt Roberts. What can you say?

10:12Catherine Whitaker: He's pretty good, isn't he? and like I really do think and I don't say this lightly I think he's in the best form of his career right now like the thing that came to mind is what we've always said about Carlos Alcrest one of his great qualities one of his many great qualities is his ability to hit massive shots and soft shots and that blend is such a problem for opponents and I think the way he's doing that right now the feel he's got on the ball is outstanding he is cranking forehands especially cross court like I've not really seen him do with such consistency that forehand I think has become a bit more compact in its stroke and it is absolutely electric right now but then he's also capable still of course of playing whole games worth basically of perfect drop shots as he did to end the tournament against Taylor Fritz hitting three of the most perfect drop shots you can imagine at a crucial time because he just started to lose that form for a couple of games maybe Taylor Fritz could apply some pressure and Alcraz just pulled out these magical drop shots so yeah I just think he's he's in such a rich vein of form right now as you said eighth title of the season and when you think about it some of his previous strongholds that he's had Wimbledon, Madrid, Indian Wells he didn't even win them this year I think one of the sort of things about Alcaraz's season is that he's been winning in some different places we saw him win indoors in Rotterdam he's now gone to Tokyo and won it for the first time it just feels like kind of for the first time he's really like conquering the whole tour doing it on all surfaces week in week out consistency he's just gone to a different level and yes I think there were maybe some eyebrows raised by the fact that he sort of played through the injury in Tokyo and then immediately pulls out of Shanghai personally I think that's a very very sensible decision he obviously felt like he could get through it in Tokyo the first person he went over to afterwards was his physio who I'm sure did did some brilliant work this week to get him in the conditioned to play but let's rest that now let's not play Shanghai you know there's there's bigger events to end this season and yeah whatever the appearance fee was that the Tokyo Open paid him absolutely justified because he was just electrifying this week and there were great crowds watching him and yeah it was just a good time and and we'll talk about that more in a

12:54Matt Roberts: moment the shanghai withdrawal and the appearance fee element that whole sort of tapestry but david do you agree form of the form of carlos alcaraz's life because that that's that's a high bar to be clearing i i do i i was going to say that i think what what his form at the moment proves is that

13:14David Law: he's actually getting better because i do think it's the best form of his career but i think he's getting better. I don't think we've seen the best of it yet. He still has, I think, the occasional lapse. I watched the Kasper Rude semi-final, which was really good. Really good competitive match. That was the best I've seen of Rude for months. He looked much more like the player we think of when we think of the guy who reached a couple of grand slam finals, well, three grand some finals and just somebody who can hurt people by being his obdurate self with a bit of menace to go with it and in the first set of that Alcraz was just a little bit too loose he was playing so well he was taking liberties is how I would characterize it he was he was just coming in on anything can kind of backing his ability to lunge and hit the most audacious volley and sometimes he was and sometimes he was getting passed then it's like he realized okay he's actually playing a bit too well for me to get away with this i've got a knuckle down and he went into knuckle down mode and played that sort of high level tennis but with real professionalism with real consistency and he kind of outrooted Roode and then he put on the sheen to go with it as the match wore on and and he was he ended up being brilliant but it was it was an interesting journey because I think sometimes you can come out and it's just as though the opponent's game is nothing to him really and they they just can't cope with with plan a Carlos Alcraz I'll do whatever whatever I like mode.

15:00David Law: Rude wasn't in that form. And so he found his kind of US Open form, really, of being that ultimate pro. And I just find that really, I find it really exciting. I found this year really exciting. I find the fact that he's pulled out of Shanghai, as sad as it is to know that there's about 12 days coming up where we won't see Carlos Alcaraz, which is a bit of a shame. him that's what's going to sustain him in the long run is making the right decisions about his schedule and now we might actually see that long-awaited Paris Indoors and ATP Finals in Turin level of Carlos Alcres that we've always hoped we would see at those events I think the whole thing is really encouraging yeah and look when I saw he had withdrawn from

15:52Matt Roberts: Shanghai I felt the same like oh gutted like really long two weeks coming up without Carlos Alcaraz and without the potential promise of Singh Karaz at the end of it but relieved from a big picture point of view like it's even without the injury or you know niggle it seems like probably the right thing to do I'm kind of always relieved when tennis players take a break to be honest because like you I just don't see how you can kind of play the full schedule and keep yourself in peak fitness and maintain yourself long long term you have to kind of game the system now because of how the schedule is in order to to survive and make it sustainable and we all want that for Carlos Alcaraz however looked at from another way he's played Labour Cup appearance fee massive he's played Tokyo and okay you are players are required to play a certain number of 500s in the year aren't they I think it's two might be three certainly two so it's not like the Labour Cup where you know without the money there's absolutely no way he'd play there but he was in Tokyo because he I don't know the number but he got a massive appearance fee bigger than whatever Beijing were offering and I think I think Beijing have quite a lot of quite a lot of heft in their checkbook and he's going to play the six king slam I assume big big big big appearance fee big big prize dangling and he's going to miss Shanghai which in theory should be the biggest and most heavily incentivized tournament in amongst those I don't I don't blame him personally I think the ATP have created a system whereby they're trying to incentivise players to play these botched two-week-long Masters, 1 ,000 events, with this bonus pool.

17:52Matt Roberts: Now, Carlos Alcraz, by skipping Shanghai, he now forgoes the bonus pool. He won't have played enough events. Yannick Sinner won't get the bonus pool. I mean, that's partly because he served the suspension and might never, I don't think he would ever have been able to play the right number of events. Djokovic obviously isn't going to have access to the bonus pool because he skipped so many. But it's clear that if you're doing well enough at slams and if you're winning a couple of them a year as Alcouraz and Sinner are, like your ranking is going to take care of itself. So the ATP have created a system where the main incentive to play these 1000s really is financial now.

18:40Matt Roberts: And Carlos Alcaraz doesn't need to worry about that because he can get far bigger financial incentives elsewhere. And I don't blame him because I think these two week long 1000s are an absolute disaster. and he's kind of going like okay if those are the rules of the game i'm going to play by those rules and do it this way and i just i think i think this is a system i think this is a symptom of a really broken system actually i don't know what you think do you know i i i've been reading

19:13David Law: a reference to a few times the hard courts book by john feinstein which details the 1990 tennis season in great detail and this feels like we've gone back in time 35 years to then because at that point they were trying to you know they just created the ATP tour and they were they were trying to give teeth to the the events by getting people to play because players were going where the guarantees were and that means appearance fees and uh and even lendle and Boris Becker and Stefan Edberg. They were getting enormous fees just for turning up, way bigger than the prize checks that they could get for winning those events.

19:58David Law: And as the years have gone on, I actually think, although those incentives have still been there at the kind of 500s and the 250s, it's actually got better, if you want to use that term, in terms of the tour being able to get players to play the 1000s. And look at Djokovic's incredible record over the years of winning ATP 1000 events. Just enormous sums of those tournaments that he's won. And it's become a real feather in his cap, really, the fact that he's the one who won them all. Now people just aren't even playing them all because they're too long. As you say, quite rightly, the financial...

20:38David Law: I mean, look at this Six Kings thing. the money these guys are getting for just a few days of turning up and wearing stuff and playing a bit of relatively competitive tennis.

20:51Matt Roberts: They're always wearing stuff.

20:52David Law: Yes, but you know what I mean.

20:54Matt Roberts: I mean, actually, Carlos Alcarez sometimes not on social media.

20:58David Law: But I mean, honestly, it's grotesque what's going on there. but from a player's perspective if if they're not bothered by going to Saudi Arabia and the grotesqueness of it all and they just think well I could either go there for three or four days and just pocket I don't know how much but it's in the millions or I could go to Shanghai and a wonderful tournament that it is and I'm not saying that Al Kraz is disrespecting the tournament by not going he is injured or at least he's he's got to be careful not to be seriously injured but the chances of him getting properly injured by going there and playing 12 days for what he might get in return by comparison where you know strictly speaking they're not they're not getting guarantees at the 1000s i don't know maybe they are uh but but the the point is they're not supposed to it's supposed to be as you say incentivized in this bonus pool why would he do it if he he's too big for like these players get too big for the tour now and and unless the tour can make itself sensible to them they're gonna they're gonna we're gonna have a lot more of this

22:10Matt Roberts: that's the thing like mandatory doesn't really seem to mean anything anymore certainly for the the top players and that's who it's supposed to mean something for like they make them mandatory because they want to guarantee to these tournaments that are paying the biggest license fees to have the biggest status on the tour they want to be guaranteed the biggest names but you know look at Igu Shviontek's comments in press after her first round or first match win over Camilla Osorio Osorio retiring in that match she said she may have to choose some tournaments and skip them even though they're mandatory in order to remain ready to compete at the highest level the WTA with all these mandatory rules they made this pretty crazy for us I don't think any top player will actually be able to achieve this playing the six 500 tournaments that's what's required on the WTA side it's just impossible to squeeze it in the schedule I think we have to be smart about it not really unfortunately care about the rules and just think what's healthy for us yeah and that's that's laid it all out there isn't it I mean it's a slightly different equation on the women's side because um there is there's less money in guarantees and less well there's less prize money as well but there's there are fewer exhibitions waving big money um in front of women's noses because we live in a patriarchy um but it's still the same broader picture and this is a to quote matt matt roberts the the picture of a broken sport or certainly this element of it feels broken to me.

23:50Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, because when you go back and look at how many matches, let's say, Federer in his prime was playing and Nadal in his prime, it's actually a very comparable number to what Alcaraz and Sinner, it's not like there are more matches necessarily than there used to be, but it's the feeling, I think, of constantly being on tour. You know, like you used to be able to, if you went deep in every tournament, you would still have off weeks. Now, if you go deep in every tournament, which these top players are, they're constantly at events, they're constantly in on mode. And that is putting, I think, tremendous stress on the body and the mind.

24:34Catherine Whitaker: And look, Beijing this week has been absolutely decimated by retirement. I mean, the last couple of days have just been so many across both draws, particularly the women's draw, but the men's draw as well. and it's just overall creating a worse, I'm going to use a horrible word, but like product. You know, like it's like the number of matches hasn't changed that much, but the way those matches are scheduled and the way the tournaments are scheduled, plus the fact that tennis is more physical than it used to be. You know, 80 matches a year now is probably even more demanding than it used to be 20 years ago.

25:13Catherine Whitaker: You know, you see what these players are doing to themselves and their bodies. so it really does feel like we've reached a tipping point but i don't know you know you hear galdenzi at the atp talk about it and he seems to seems to be very pleased with his with his new schedule of two-week masters so i don't as much as i think we've reached the tipping point i'm not sure i'm not sure we are going to tip if that makes sense i'm not sure anything's gonna going to change. Yeah.

25:46Matt Roberts: And that point about sort of being there at a tournament and being on, like luckily for Carlos Alcaraz, he seems to wear all that so lightly, all the requirements of him and the fan demands. And obviously those are all a privilege and they're lovely. We have a tiny taste of that at our live shows, don't we? When we stick around and meet people afterwards. And it's one of the loveliest, most joyful things we do in the year. But it is the single most exhausting thing that we do. Nothing takes more out of me than that because you're sort of giving a part of yourself away every time in the loveliest possible way.

26:24Matt Roberts: And Carlos Alcaraz seems to do all that, for now at least, like it doesn't take anything out of him. But he's pretty unique in that way. Igor Shiontek, for example, is a completely different personality And I think it does take a lot out of her, that being on all the time. And I just think, you know, I know it's hard for players to complain about all of that because it's, you know, multi-millionaires asking people to get violins out for them because people want their autograph all the time. But I'm prepared to have sympathy and empathy with them about that because I don't, I just fed up with seeing burnt out tennis players that is being kind of exploited.

27:08Matt Roberts: Like you can't stretch people this thin.

27:12Catherine Whitaker: And just very specifically on Carlos Alcaraz, we talk about his consistency this year and his form. I think that's been one of the reasons why he's able to be so consistent. I think last year was kind of the first time we ever really talked about a bit of burnout for Carlos Alcaraz. It hadn't really crossed my mind before, but obviously he is going to be affected by it. But this year, I do think he's found little strategies. You know, I think a lot of it is playing golf. But, you know, I think he's a pretty simple guy in terms of what his pleasures are. But I think I genuinely think that has been important to him.

27:50Catherine Whitaker: Having the time after Wimbledon at home, having the Ibiza trip after Roland Garros. You know, we kind of joke about these things, but I genuinely think they've been really helpful for Carlos Alcarez in terms of sustaining him. And part of that, as you said, is kind of the privilege that he's got, that he's earned by being as good as he is and, you know, not having to worry about money and all that kind of thing. But yeah, he's just he is managing the tour extremely well right now. And I think that is helping his tennis just on a on a slight slightly different note, but related. Just like interesting that Sinu and Alkaver were playing different tournaments this week.

28:30Catherine Whitaker: And I thought I would hate that. like I thought that I would be watching it thinking oh I'm desperate for them to play I'm desperate to see Sina Alcarez what's the point of having them both playing if we're not going to get them playing each other but actually I quite enjoyed that the whole tournament just wasn't about Sina and Alcarez meeting in the final it slightly expanded my own vision of these events a little bit more I thought more about other players and just that slight different change of narrative I think was maybe a little bit refreshing for the tour. Like, I'm not bored of Sinner Alcaraz matches, but I don't necessarily need them in September, October.

29:10Catherine Whitaker: You know, I'd much rather they were playing in June, July, August against each other at the majors as they did. And now this time of the season, maybe leaning into a little bit what David was talking about at the start about Lever Cup, you know, just doesn't necessarily need to be everything at this point in the season. And I just think them in different events, just personally, I'm sure many will feel differently and think, oh, I wish they'd played each other. But personally for me, it just helped me sort of enjoy both tournaments a little bit more. I think that there were these sort of different narratives going on.

29:42Matt Roberts: Yeah, I felt the same. I really enjoyed it. Kind of, I feel like 500s are, yeah, 500s are the sweet spot a little bit on tour sets. Yeah, certainly on the men's side, like the women's side, The 500 bookmarking slams, I find a bit of a tough scene. Some 500s are great on the women's side. But yeah, I feel like you've got enough stakes, you have a good enough field. And yeah, it didn't feel like a sort of inevitable march, just sort of counting down towards an inevitable destination. I wasn't quite thinking that during the Beijing men's final, where Yannick Sinner was taking Lennart-Tien inevitably to the cleaners.

30:25Matt Roberts: I did sort of, I'm a huge Lennart-Tien fan, but when I saw that final on paper, I did think, yeah, maybe Sinner-Alkaraz would be better. And look, I know tennis can surprise you, sport can surprise you any time, but this final did end up looking quite a lot like, I think, what most of us would have expected it to look like on paper, I think, two and two for Yannick Sinner, his ninth consecutive hardcourt final in his third title of the season, his first title that's not a grand slam of the season, incredibly. Obviously, there's a big reason for that. There were three months where he couldn't play on tour.

31:10Matt Roberts: But it was a fun week of watching Yannick Sinner, David. He's definitely delivering on what he promised us in his post-final press conference at the US Open.

31:22David Law: Yeah, and I'm going to defer to Matt to give the specifics of the early rounds, which is when I think a lot of the experimentation was happening, because I know Matt saw a lot more of him than I did. But I was really taken by the descriptions that you were giving as we were going along. When we got to the final, I think he was ultra-aggressive and not just in his ball striking. I did feel like this is a guy who's going to the net a lot. And in his semi-final, I was really taken by his serve, the way he kept digging himself out of trouble. And that serve is the thing that has been letting him down in recent times in the US Open.

32:02David Law: But there he was having to really play lights out against the guy he's always owned in Alex Dimenor in the semifinals who played a fantastic match. The sort of match that he is going to have to play if ever he's going to beat Sinner. And I didn't think he was that far away. I really didn't. The way he sort of stuck with him in rallies and sort of took it to him and tried to give him a different ball every shot and went to the net a lot and used the slice a lot, sort of not on a defensive position, just to throw in a different look. And I thought, this is clever. This is the way to play Sinner and potentially make him kind of malfunction.

32:43David Law: But Sinner still came out when it really mattered in the third set and got the job done. The final, Catherine, two games in, I had this memory of sitting in a pub with you in October 2019, reviewing the Basel final. I think it was Basel between Roger Federer and Alex Diminor. And I looked back on it. I looked back at the score. And sure enough, it was 6-2, 6-2. And I remember describing, I'm going to quote myself. this is terrible but I'm going to quote myself I remember describing at the time that Federer was playing as if he was ignoring the game of Alex Dimador. He was just the ground strikes would come at him and he would just sort of like a tidal wave just come in towards the net and just sweep all before him and because he was in his ultra aggressive phase of hitting the ball incredibly hard incredibly early and following it in and at the time really, Dimonor was a counterpuncher who played at the baseline.

33:49David Law: I mean, he has revolutionized, or at least evolved his game to an extreme level in the last six years. And that's made him better than I ever thought he would become Alex Dimonor. But Sinner reminded me of Federer today. Because, I mean, he might not do it in quite the same way, but everything was about offense, attack. He wasn't just waiting for a guy to break down. and he was looking to just take over every time he's in a rally. And I actually quite enjoyed the way that Tien, in the early start stages of the second set, kind of went toe-to-toe with him and showed what a good ball striker he is.

34:28David Law: But how long can you keep that up for? That's the problem. If that's not your natural game, if you're not as good as the other guy, he can do that in third gear while you've got your foot down to the floor in fifth.

34:42Matt Roberts: and if you're not getting any free points either like Leonard Tien could do with beefing up that serve couldn't he and he knows that but goodness me it's an uphill battle if you're just under pressure all the time if you're not getting those cheap points

34:57Catherine Whitaker: yeah I really sort of zoned in on the Tien serve after this match because I thought it was such a big difference between them they were they were Sina won 25 baseline points and Tien won 23 from the back of the court, TN was at times really good and there with Sinner, but the serves were such a massive difference. Sinner, 10 aces, one double fault in this match. TN, no aces, but six double faults. And not only is his serve not that much of a weapon, it actually costs him quite a lot. He's in the top 10 on the ATP for the average number of double faults per match. and a lot of the other guys who are up there in the top 10 are the big servers.

35:41Catherine Whitaker: You know, it's like Opelka, Alise, Mpeshi, Perica, Bublik. Okay, they're hitting double faults, but they're making up for it by hitting a lot of aces and getting a lot out of it. Tien doesn't get a lot out of it, but he's hitting a lot of double faults as well. So that is a massive area of his game that I think will hold him back if he doesn't improve it because he's got such a good game, crafty game. He is hurting top guys, but without that serve, it's going to hold him back. There's going to be a ceiling.

36:13Matt Roberts: Most top 10 wins this year, aside from Sinner and Alcaraz in men's tennis.

36:18Catherine Whitaker: Yeah. I mean, the one he got this week against Mazzetti was a retirement. And then he also beat Medvedev by retirement. It was a little bit tough to sort of judge the actual level because he had the two retirements. But he did play really well. And yeah, just very quickly on Sinner, the Atman match, his first match of the tournament. You loved this match. I think I love Terence Atman. I've done such a 180 on him. I thought he was a joke. And now... You've gone full one point slam. I have. He might have thought he was a joke.

36:59Matt Roberts: He himself might have thought he was a joke. I think he might have been a joke and he's rebranded. I had two...

37:05Catherine Whitaker: I had two Atman reference points, and that was his cramping against Medvedev at the Australian Open and getting booed off court by his own fans at Roland Garros. And yet, in the last couple of months, he was so good in Cincinnati. And here, he gave Sinner so much to handle. But what was interesting was that Sinner was, yeah, as you said, true to his word and clearly at least treating like the early rounds, and this one in particular, as a match of experimentation, he was hitting multiple drop shots a game. A game. Like, it was unbelievable. And he wasn't always having success with it, and yet he was, like, determined to keep trying and keep bringing it.

37:47Catherine Whitaker: He was serve-volleying. He was, as David described in the final, just intent to get forward. And, like, I think he did a really good job this week of trying to do that when he knew he could, he could afford to, and then rein it in, go back a bit more to his plan A when he needed to in the biggest moments of the biggest matches. But I remember when he had just lost to Alcraz at the US Open, one of the things he really bemoaned was the fact that he hadn't tried the variety or used it through the tournament. So therefore, he didn't feel like he could against Alcraz. Just think, if he can use these opening rounds, well, let's face it, he is mostly brushing people aside.

38:27Catherine Whitaker: if he can use these opening rounds of tournaments to just tinker and add layers to his game A, I think it's going to be a really, really fun watch because honestly I urge everyone to go out and watch this Atman match it was terrific until the final set when Atman ended up cramping again and B, it's just going to be interesting to see whether he can then bring it to the match up against Alcaraz because we all know that's what he's really doing it for so yeah, I just really enjoyed watching Sinner this week And even it was a bit of a reminder that not to totally write off matches, because I've definitely said before, I don't need to see Dimon or Sinner again.

39:07Catherine Whitaker: Well, actually, Dimon or Sinner this week was brilliant. And Dimon or, you know, trying to implement some different things really brought a good attitude. You wouldn't know that he was, what is he, now 0-11 or 0-10 or something against Sinner. You wouldn't know that that was the head-to-head going into the match. He brought it from the start. So, yeah, really fun week.

39:28Matt Roberts: You're trying to tell me that Guillermo Fis is going to get a win over Novak Djokovic in the final year of his career. Touche, touche.

39:35Catherine Whitaker: You never know.

39:38Matt Roberts: Maybe there are exceptions. Richard Gasquet and Rafael Nadal coming out of retirement. That I feel confident.

39:48Matt Roberts: Gutted I miss the Atman match. but one of the things I hate most about this time of year is waking up to a slurry of WhatsApps from David and Matt about a brilliant tennis match that has been happening at a time of day that I just don't consider to be a tennis-watching time, or an awake time of day. No, right, we're all asleep. Just chill your boots for a bit.

40:14David Law: Billie Jean's with you, I think, so.

40:17Matt Roberts: I do adjust my wake-up call a bit earlier for this time of year, but I mean, yeah, there's a limit. Just touching on Medvedev for a moment, and go on, Matt, what have you got to say?

40:33Catherine Whitaker: I was going to say that I realised that Beijing has been a real tournament for Sinoa. He's had these sort of incidents of illness. A couple of years ago, we had post-puke sinner, didn't we? And did you see in the press conference this week, he admitted that this was post-diarrhea sinner this week.

40:59David Law: There's information we needed. Yeah, thanks, Yannick.

41:03Matt Roberts: It was very Jack Draper. Nobody specifically asked about... He started talking about fluid. He wasn't asking about your bowels, but that is good to know.

41:18Matt Roberts: fluid um yes sorry difficult segue now yeah i was trying to think of a fluid based gag but i couldn't get there in time so let's just do medvedev uh and his wild ride of a semi-final against london tn yesterday yeah it does you know it does make you dehydrated doesn't it what a weird match I left this match in the sort of mid stages of the what I thought were the latter stages of the match Tien was three love down it was set in three love down and looked so I cannot tell you how physically gone he looked like his serve which is a dolly serve at the best of times his his quads His thighs were so gone that it looked like my serve.

42:14Matt Roberts: So I thought, OK, I can safely go out and go meet my mum for lunch. Lovely. We're safe here. And then I'm getting texts from Matt again. I'm at least awake for these. But I'm getting texts from Matt about Tien's won the second set and now Medvedev's the one that is just falling apart at the seams, cramping seemingly. I mean, literally just not able to move on the court. but clearly due to a physical impediment, then he gets a code violation from the umpire for lack of effort, which he doesn't respond brilliantly to, Matt, despite the fact that, quote, I'm trying to be better since the US Open.

43:00Matt Roberts: How, out of 10, Matt, how badly behaved was he, regardless of the fact that he definitely had a point and the ATP did later revoke the violation, he's not going to be fined. They told The Athletic that that violation was issued in error. And it's a strange rule to enforce, that one, the lack of effort rule. But without having witnessed his sort of outburst at the umpire, was it on the right side of the line? Is he being better since the US Open?

43:36Catherine Whitaker: I think it depends. If you want a ranking out of 10, it depends on the scale. If it's a Medvedev scale, oh, then it was quite low, I would say, considering what we've seen. But low on the Medvedev scale is still not great, really, I would say, by ATP standards. And I think, you know, he said to the umpire, why is every referee in the world trying to intimidate me? And, look, I think what that is doing is absolutely not realising that yes I think this was a bad call but he has not exactly earned the benefit of the doubt in the minds of umpires I think with the way he's behaved towards them you know like he's been pretty despicable to umpires umpires are human I think it's almost impossible for them to umpire every player exactly the same like I feel like they should but sometimes like your pass probably is in the umpires mind And yeah, just like the way Medvedev spoke to him was on the edge of being really nasty.

44:40I think he was genuinely in pain and struggling.

44:44Catherine Whitaker: He almost didn't have it in him to fully go at the umpire. And I think it's the right call from the ATP to say that it was the wrong call and he's not going to get fined. I think it was the wrong call. He was clearly struggling. But I guess what I'm saying is two things are at play here. Yes, there's maybe the umpire making a mistake, but also Medvedev with his behaviour generally just needs to look at himself. And he said there after the US Open, I'm trying to be good. So maybe he is trying. But yeah, it wasn't awful, but it wasn't great either. And obviously the umpire is getting absolutely slammed.

45:23Catherine Whitaker: And it was a bad call.

45:27Matt Roberts: Last bit of controversy to cover from Beijing involving Lorenzo Musetti in a match against Giovanni Mpeci Pericard last week. Had a bit of an outburst in Italian, but of course there's nowhere to hide. It's been translated. He complained to umpire Mohamed Layani about a group of fans that coughed between his first and second serves on several occasions. This is from some reporting in The Athletic by James Hansen. The translated words that he said were they are always coughing. these effing Chinese, they are always coughing for eff sake. They cough every three seconds. Not great. And these things blow up in China.

46:29Matt Roberts: You know, what happened with Taylor Townsend a couple of weeks ago in Shenzhen, it goes big on social media over there. and obviously they have their own version of Twitter and what have you, so we're not kind of necessarily seeing it ourselves, but very aware that these things trend pretty highly and word gets around. And Mazzetti was quick to issue an apology after this match, which he went on to win. He said he wanted to sincerely apologise, adding that his comments were never in any way meant for the Chinese people. my words were directed only at a few individuals in the crowd who were coughing repeatedly and disturbing the play they were never in any way meant for the Chinese people it happened in a moment of stress and tension in the second tie break but still this is no excuse at all I realized that the way I expressed myself was wrong and inappropriate and it hurt many Chinese fans feelings I deeply regret it and feel very remorseful I've always admired the Chinese people and I truly appreciate playing in your country.

47:34Matt Roberts: I've been coming back to China since 2018. I always feel very welcome here. I'm grateful for the incredible support I constantly receive and for the many fans I have in China. Well, he didn't have many for his subsequent matches. He got booed heavily in his next match against Adrian Manorino, ended up retiring, as Matt said, against Lerner T and got booed off court again. and Taylor Townsend not playing Beijing. I don't think she'll play again in China. I do, I don't know, I do wonder, you know, I don't know what goes on behind the scenes, but tennis has not covered itself in glory here in this Chinese swing.

48:21Matt Roberts: This is not good stuff. No.

48:26David Law: And I do think that I don't know whether players need to start getting reminders when they're on the way. I mean, they shouldn't need that, should they? But, you know, just respect your hosts and think about what you're saying and consider that maybe just because things aren't exactly what you're used to doesn't make them wrong. And you write and just just think a little more and have some consideration. And the language matters. Yeah, absolutely. These people. Yeah. I'd very much like to think that some lessons have been learnt the last couple of weeks because of these incidents, but I don't really hold my breath.

49:11Matt Roberts: OK, we're going to stay in Beijing for part two and talk about the women's results that we've seen so far, the women's tournament. Halfway to the quarterfinals, we've got two quarterfinals lined up, two more being set up as we speak, live scenes on the screen in front of me. Just to take you into part two, though, a promo, a teaser for a show that we recorded on Monday, our latest edition of Tennis Relived, telling the story of Pam Shriver's run to the US Open final in 1978 as a 16-year-old. and the subsequent chapters of her career and how it unfolded. And it's the Pam Triver story, really. It's been a story we've been wanting to tell for a very long time.

50:00Matt Roberts: We told it with Pam. She joined us on the show. She did the interviews for the show herself. She interviewed Martina Navratilova, who she beat in the semis en route to that final. she interviewed Chrissie Evert who beat her in that final to win her fourth US Open and she even interviewed her sister which was a lovely moment, it's a show that we love making, it's a show that on the base of what I'm seeing on the barge, friends of the pod are really enjoying and if you're a friend and you haven't heard it yet check it out and if you're not a friend then the link is in our show notes, here is a little taster of the Pam Shriver story.

50:45Do you remember after I beat you that you left me a note in the locker room? I must have been really nice then. I left a few notes for people, but I don't remember that I left one for you then. I know I left some notes for you, Chrissy, a couple for Steffi. But no, I mean, that was a pretty class act. I just wanted you to do well. You know, not necessarily beat Chris, as she was my friend, and we were kind of rooting for each other against the newcomers. But you were just so cool and sweet and nice and played fun games, so I just wanted you to play well in the finals. Chrissy, what do you recall from 1978 U.S.

51:29Open? You were trying to win your fourth in a row. Well, first of all, you came out of nowhere. I didn't know much about you. I just knew you were young and I was secretly very happy when you beat Martina. I remember feeling that because, you know, you got her out of the way for me. and what I saw was a tall gangly 16 year old with an afro hairstyle with curls all over the place and kind of goofy and very sweet and very very innocent in a lot of ways but really you know mature in other ways very intelligent well what I can't believe is when I think about the passage of time from when I first met in 1978 and then to think here we are all these years later still on the same broadcast team having been friends through all of it and me to have had a backseat to the greatest rivalry in sports with you and Martina it's been amazing.

52:35Pammy it was you had so many highlights in your career especially the doubles with Martina and the three of us have been intertwined, you know, throughout the last 40 years. And what I love about our, our years of my relationship is, you know, it went from tennis. And even if we, I beat you, you beat me, whatever, we still were really good friends. And now with the broadcasting, we're brought together as a team and you and I are a team now. So we're working together and we're helping each other. So, you know, I love you and we talk all the time and I do, I have a really special place in my heart for you, Pam.

53:13David Law: That's the second time I've listened to those conversations. And I feel quite tearful for the second time. I mean, on the first time was on the subway, taking that ride you were talking about, the year that you reached the final, Pam, you know, and I was sitting there on my own listening to these conversations you'd sent through. And I suddenly realized I'm sitting surrounded by people and I'm in floods of tears and it's because I mean I was trying to I was trying to get to the bottom of why why I found it so emotional and I wonder whether our listeners do as well I think I think it is these shared years and these this this insight you're giving us into your relationship that we can know nothing about without your permission really without your conversations and what you've been through all together and and how much it all means to you still all of you and it's uh I think it's a beautiful thing I really do well you know what it's it's like life you um you share a sport um and then Chrissy yeah she started to reflect I mean I remember when my oldest sister died she Chrissy flew in for the for the funeral um we've been to each other's weddings um when her uh first when her sister died and her dad died i was able to get to south florida for their services so you know you yeah you celebrate life you reflect when somebody passes and you literally share um every stage of life from when i was turned 16 and she was like 21 and and really the same with martina um Um, but it's, yeah, it's been, it's been quite amazing.

54:59And it's another gift of the sport really, or the friendships and the relationships.

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57:05Matt Roberts: Welcome back to part two of the tennis podcast where we turn our attention back to Beijing now and the women's tournament there, a 1000 event of course, which has been frankly blighted by retirements just as the men's event has as well. We've had retirements from Camilla Osorio, Paola Bedossa, Jung Chinwen in her comeback tournament from that elbow surgery. And it was elbow pain that caused her to retire. Barbora Krojcikova as well, Lois Boisson. It's been a bit of a tough scene in Beijing. And I'm sure the time of the year is definitely a contributing factor there. We have two quarterfinals already lined up.

57:50Matt Roberts: We have Jasmine Paolini against Amanda Anisimova and we have Ava Lees against Coco Gough. Those matches in the bottom half of the draw. Those are two very Matt Roberts coded tennis matches. Oh, yeah.

58:06Catherine Whitaker: It's terrific. I feel like I've had a pretty good year, actually, in terms of Matt Roberts coded things happening. Let's not jinx it. Yeah, it's great.

58:20Matt Roberts: uh should we talk about anisimova who do you want me to talk about yeah i was gonna say i mean take your pick matt should we talk about anisimova because i feel like the beauty now is it's sort of editorially legit to lead with anisimova because she's so she's so relevant she's world number four like she could very easily win this tournament like she's so relevant so consistently now and that's just the new normal. I'm not saying I'm taking for granted that that will always be the case but that is our normal now and what a treat that is. Not just for Matt Roberts but for other people too.

59:02Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, it's great. I can't lie. Yeah, she's right up there with the best players in the world at the moment and I think what's been interesting is that she's been starting matches a little bit slowly this week. she was sort of a breakdown early against Zhang Shui needed several set points to get over that first set and then get through it and then honestly she was absolutely taken apart in the first set by Karolina Mukova yesterday in the what I'm calling the Priscilla Hon derby both sort of besties with Priscilla Hon, Mukova and Anissa Mova she sat in both of their boxes throughout the summer Didn't know where she was going to be.

59:45Catherine Whitaker: I think she was in a neutral point in the stadium. But, you know, we hadn't seen that matchup since 2022. You know, Mukova and Isimova. It was one that was just really interesting to me. And in those early moments, I did think, wow, Mukova's really got a game that can nullify Isimova. Using the short slice, keeping the ball low, such amazing balance that she can come to the net. and Isamova was kind of having to come to the net to try and disrupt Mukova. You know, she was really out of her comfort zone, Isamova, basically. But there we saw the difference. You know, I think previous years, Isamova, you know, she might have not dug in in the way she did.

1:00:29Catherine Whitaker: But now the resilience is there in these matches and there's no match, there's no matchup that she can't take over with her own game and her own power. You know, name me a player who that game is not going to disrupt. You know, it's disrupted Sabalenka and Sriantec this year. No, that was a one-time thing. If they played again, I'm telling you, Anisimova's going to win it. But there we go. I want that rematch. But there we go. There's quite a good example. Me too, desperately. There's quite a good example, right? Like Slice and Dice in Queens. And Anisimova never really sort of got into that one.

1:01:12Catherine Whitaker: But since Wimbledon, she has. And like the way she's been, yeah, just hitting those ground strokes. No one can live with it when she really gets it right. And yeah, she ended up taking this match over. It was kind of only the third set when they both played well at the same time. but a key for Inesimova high first serve percentage in this match, you know, over 70%. That's, I think, is going to be a really big thing that we're looking at for Inesimova going forward, like, because it's still a bit of a weak shot for her comparatively, but when she's serving like that, it's not. And yeah, it was a big difference.

1:01:55Catherine Whitaker: And then she eventually, having had sort of lots of half chances, managed to break and win in three against Mukovo, and yet finds herself in the quarters. And that's a really interesting matchup against Paolini because they haven't played since Paolini, you know, has become Paolini that we know now. So really looking forward to that one.

1:02:17Matt Roberts: As am I very much looking forward to Ava Lees against Coco Gough. Lees beating Elena Rabakina en route to this quarterfinal. her best career win happened during what I would describe as the night time for me, but it was probably several hours after David woke up. Do you see this one, David?

1:02:40David Law: Some of it. Yeah, I did. And actually, you were talking about it's editorially legitimate to talk about Amanda and Issa Mova all the time. That's kind of how it feels at the moment with Ava Lees, really, is that she's somebody that because we'd heard her talk before, we were always thinking, oh, you know, it'd be great to do an interview with her, wouldn't it? You know, but is she ever going to be that good? You know, is she ever going to be that relevant? And suddenly she's beaten people and becoming very relevant. And I think back to that conversation you had with her at the US Open, Catherine, and not only does she speak really well on issues, she's just, she's really ambitious.

1:03:23David Law: You know, I get the sense that this is somebody who wants to do a lot in the sport. She's not just on the tour. You know, she wants to make real strides. Every time she goes to an event, there's a purpose, there's a point, there's a goal. And she's going to strive for those goals. And she's improving results-wise all the time. I don't feel like I know her game enough well enough yet to know how far it can go. but it's great to see it's great to see I love it when players who that who I really like and want to become good figure out a way to get on the tour and be in those events where you can get a lot of points you know I remember thinking that years ago about Dan Evans you know when he was first trying to get on the circuit and he was making all of his sort of mistakes in life and I used to think how can he do this how can he how can he how can he kind of tap into the the big stage that he loves um when actually a lot of what you've got to do is in the middle of nowhere and with nobody watching um but yeah she's she's great and uh and this is cool this these are great wins i mean and then we're backing her you know that is a fantastic win and and she's a brilliant

1:04:40Catherine Whitaker: absorber of pace avelisse if you know if you hit the ball big at her she's pretty unfazed by that unless you really get her moving when obviously that's different. I remember when she played Madison Keys in I think it was Cincinnati earlier this year and she had match points but she couldn't quite get over the line. And Keys actually gave the really good analysis there saying when I was hitting the ball at her with pace, it was coming back at me. Like I had to get her wide with pace and then I could hit through her. But I think in this match against Rebecca Kiner, she quite liked it. She quite liked the pace coming at her, the ball coming at her.

1:05:18Catherine Whitaker: She crowds the baseline. She takes returns early. And look, Rabatkinner clearly had an elbow problem in this match. Her serve was struggling. I think she'd had treatment the round before. And a very Rabatkinner, unfortunately, thing that we see a lot now. Errors in big moments. She's not clutch anymore, Rabatkinner. But Leif, brilliant. First top 10 win, first top 20 win in fact and I think is now going to be in the top 50 for the first time because she backed it up by beating McCartney Kessler as well which is another good solid win. Yeah intrigued to see what she can do against Goff matchup wise I think it's not that big flat strike that you get against the keys and a back and a Goff is going to move you a lot more and give you different looks.

1:06:17Catherine Whitaker: And so it's just going to be interesting as we find out more about Lees, we find out more about these match-ups. So yeah, this is really exciting names to have in the quarterfinals.

1:06:27Matt Roberts: Just in terms of Goff, she beat Belinda Bencic en route to this quarterfinal. Bencic, though, did achieve the extraordinary this week, which was managing to have aggro with Coco Goff. truly incredible scenes. I honestly can't believe this happened. Koko Goff, in fact, said after the match that it was her pettiness that helped her win after she was accused of mind games by Bencic.

1:07:04Matt Roberts: It happened in the sixth game of the second set of their match as Bencic prepared to serve down break point. This from reporting again by James Hansen in The Athletic.

1:07:16Matt Roberts: She, on the previous point, Bencic had hit a poor drop shot that Goff returned for a winner, drawing celebrations from her box. Bencic told Goff's box to shut up, saying that they should not have been cheering before I serve and comparing the situation to under 12's tennis. Goff said, I treat your team with respect. You treat my team with respect. Bencic ultimately held serve for three all. before breaking Goff, who hit three double faults. She said she was frustrated in that game. Bencic said at the sit-down, to Goff, no one's talking to you. She's talking to me, OK? This was when Bencic was trying to have an exchange with the umpire about what Goff's team were doing.

1:08:01Matt Roberts: No one's talking to you. She's talking to me, OK? Your team is chanting, I'm too old for these mind games.

1:08:11yeah you're 28

1:08:16Matt Roberts: literally younger than Matt Roberts do you feel do you feel too old for mind games Matt

1:08:22Catherine Whitaker: no bring them on like it was a real shame that Goff was indiscernible on that changeover I couldn't tell what Goff was saying and I desperately wanted to know yeah I think and the point James made in that article as well was that it was basically an empty stadium and I think I think the sort of goth box cheers got to Bengtchik because she could hear them normally you can't normally there's a bigger crowd and it's just I think she just massively overreacted there Bengtchik and has come out of it really not looking looking very good at all, whereas I think Goff handled the situation well and just sort of got to work and dug in and was determined to win.

1:09:13Catherine Whitaker: And you don't want to give Coco Goff yet another reason to want to beat you, like the best competitor in the world, getting her all the more fired up. That just spells trouble. But a sneaky good matchup this year, Bengtich Goff. This was their third three-setter of the year. You know, they played in Australia, played at Indian Wells and they split those. They played in Madrid as well and got one easily. But then this one with some aggro, like it's quite interesting the way their games match up against each other. And I think it, I'm going to sound like a broken record. I think it's a lot to do with the fact that they're both on the backhand list.

1:09:53Catherine Whitaker: They both rate their backhands. They both want those sorts of exchanges, but they come up against each other and it's retaliated by another good backhand. And there's just immediately like friction in the matchup because they can't do what they want to do. And it just is interesting when they when they come up against each other.

1:10:13Matt Roberts: The other quarterfinals in the top half yet to be fully decided. We know that Sane Kartal is there. She has just beaten Mira Andreva. Now, the the latter stages of this match have been happening while we've been recording this podcast. So I don't necessarily expect anybody to be able to comment on that in great detail. But I think we were all watching it before we came on. And yeah, Cartel's a proper player.

1:10:40David Law: I mean, I've watched her throughout the week and she is a proper player. She is trouble for these players. Their top level is higher than hers, for sure. But she's still pretty new. she's so different to the majority of players you don't get these trajectories of balls and the amount of spin she's putting on it on many players balls and i think that it's really quite disconcerting for top players who just aren't used to it they're used to a flatter hit and they're getting suddenly excessive top spin with with pace as well or they're getting slice those that's usually the mix. And it's just tough.

1:11:25David Law: She's a really compact player who's not making many mistakes. She's a good athlete. She's completely imperturbable. You can't work out what's going on. Whether she's upset, whether she's gleeful, you're not getting anything back at all. And I think that that is a weapon in itself. And good for her. She's putting together a really good year.

1:11:48Matt Roberts: Must be a first quarter final at 1000 level for her. She'll take on Linda Nozkova. And then in the top section, it'll be either Iga Shontek or Emma Navarro. That much happening as we speak. Emma Navarro, actually, she went an early breakdown, but she's now 3-2 up with a break over Iga Shontek. Still early stages, though. The winner of that to take on the winner are Jessica Pagula and Marta Kostiuk. Just again, just on Pagula, David, you and I both watched her match with Emma Raducanu earlier this week where Pagula saved three match points to come through and win in the end, eventually very comfortably.

1:12:31Matt Roberts: But Six Love in the third, was it? Yeah, I think it was Six Love in the third. Another match for Emma Raducanu where she's had match points and failed to convert. But now Pagula produced worldies on a couple of those match points. My God, did she play them well. And the previous match in which this happened was against Barbora Krojcikova, who was in a groove of playing exactly this kind of match. Like, to some extent, she's been unlucky. But I think it's more perhaps the way that Raducanu has completely fallen away in the deciding sets after failing to convert the match points, which maybe is a slight cause for alarm.

1:13:15Matt Roberts: As brilliant as Pagula was, and God, she was impressive.

1:13:19David Law: Yeah, this was seriously high quality for two sets, and Radhikaan is providing a level now that makes you think, wow, she could be a feature at the latter stages of these big tournaments if she can stay fit for the next few years. And I've always thought that's in there. um Pagula counted it exceptionally well it would have been very easy to have gone away mentally given the sheer number of great shots coming away from Raducanu but I do think that there will have been little notes taken by coaches and opponents of the future of what happened when those players leveled at one set all against Emma Raducanu because the manner in which she just dropped off a cliff thereafter totally understandable in my mind in as a sort of person who's not an athlete and not a professional competitor you know it's the most normal thing in the world I think to just have that massive disappointment hit you and you just collapse really in terms of a force on in the match but the best players don't collapse they dig in they find something so that they can become competitive again in the third set look i mean i know koka goff's an extreme but she's won 10 matches and lost two over the over the distance this year in three sets um radakana just had nothing left now maybe that is still physical but i i think it probably was mental too you know and and again i understand it but she she needs to figure out a way not to go away like that

1:15:06Matt Roberts: Okay, it'll be the winner of Pagula Kostiuk to take on the winner of Shontek Navarro who looked to be sort of just knocking bells out of one another it's got sort of dragged out three setter written all over it from what I can gather That's it for part two, we'll be back in part three to cover a few bits and bobs of news and to look ahead quickly to what's ahead in Shanghai this week AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into. That's why it's no surprise that more than 85 % of the 14500 use the ServiceNow AI platform. While other platforms duct tape tools together, ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data, workflows, and AI, connecting every corner of your business.

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1:16:54Matt Roberts: Welcome back to part three of the tennis podcast with some news that I kind of told you about earlier and you've probably seen already, but 2026 will feature a big goodbye tour for a major beloved player. Is it Novak Djokovic? No, it is not. Well, certainly not announced at this stage. It is, of course, Gael Monfils. He has announced today that 2026 will be his farewell year on tour and he will retire at the end of the season. so we're going to see lots of emotional Guillem-en-Fise goodbyes, David. He still only needs one.

1:17:37David Law: Yep, still in there with a chance. I do think that if ever he's going to get a big win or two or a big run out of his system, it's knowing that he's got a finish line in sight at the end of next year. It's now and ever, and he can just go for it, and it's okay, then he can have a good rest. and I enjoy the rest of his life. I think it's a great way. I mean, as long as you're not the type of person, Stefan Edberg talked about this because he did the same thing he announced ahead of time that he was going to have a tour, you know, like a one more year on the circuit. And he kept getting given these emotional send-offs and it drained him.

1:18:19He said, if I'd have had it again,

1:18:22David Law: he told us on Tennis Relift when we were doing the original series of those shows. as you said, I probably wouldn't have done that in hindsight because I found it draining. I think Monfils will lap it up and love it. And I think everybody else will love celebrating it. I think I'm going to find it emotionally draining,

1:18:41Matt Roberts: seeing heart-wrenching Gamel Feast goodbyes every week.

1:18:45David Law: I think there'll be lots of smiles, though, and I think he's going to go all out to just enjoy himself, which will make tennis spectacular. I mean, he played some serious ball for the first six months of 2025. I said he was my player of the year for the first few months. And I mean, look, this guy beat Taylor Fritz, the Australian Open, for goodness sake. He's fantastic. And I still think Djokovic should and may well end up doing the same thing. But we'll see.

1:19:17Catherine Whitaker: Steal Monfils' thunder one last time. Yeah.

1:19:24Matt Roberts: some reporting in the athletic and the new york times this week by charlie eckleshire sort of continuation of a pre-existing story that's kind of always rumbling in the background of men's and women's tennis group of leading men's and women's players all the all members of the top 10 except for elena rabackina um have sent a letter to all four of the major tournaments uh they It was actually sent on July the 30th, but it's only just coming to light. Pushing for reform to the sport. The aim of the group is to represent the interests of players at all levels. The most recent letter, which has been reviewed by The Athletic, reiterates the players' desire for three key areas of reform from the slams.

1:20:19Matt Roberts: to start contributing to player welfare and a benefit fund to improve pension, healthcare and maternity benefits. An increase in prize money as a proportion of revenue, up from the current estimate of 16 % to 22 % by 2030, in line with joint ATP and WTA tour events. And greater player consultation and representation with the formation of a Grand Slam Player Council. This would be consulted on decisions like expanding tournaments to 15 days, as the Australian Open and US Open have done in the last couple of years. Some quotes from Jessica Baguda saying she's really not a fan of that particular development in sports.

1:21:05Matt Roberts: She said, I don't know why they had to make it even longer. She said, well, I know why they did it. They get to sell tickets for an extra day. she said I don't think a lot of players were for it especially those who play the week before a slam it makes everything a little longer and a little harder so that's kind of an ongoing situation in tennis that will continue to keep you updated on we've had the news that Roland Garros intend to do things their own way what a surprise they're keeping line judges for 2026 they are not for turning will they turn eventually do you think is it inevitable are they holding back the tide for as long as they can before it wipes them out or do you think they could continue to be the outlier

1:21:55David Law: eventually I think the players will push them to change

1:22:03Matt Roberts: yeah I suspect you're right they'll be so used to it and they just won't accept this outlier in terms of this week obviously there's the continuation of beijing the wta 1000 event that we have talked about we have shanghai on the men's side which is also a 1000 event and the top seed is corintham mutte david no due to a quirk quirk in the draw uh carlos alcoraz withdrawing after the draw was done so he comes in he scrapes into the seeded positions but because of how it all works out he slots into Alcaraz's position which is fun but it actually created a really lopsided draw Can't wait for the Mute Cine final Yeah, the new Cine Caraz you've got Djokovic and Cine in the bottom half you've also got Schulten, Rude Fritz, Runa and Bublik in there.

1:23:09Matt Roberts: And then the top half is Mouté, obviously, favourite for the title. Mouté. And Alejandro Davidovic-Fagina, Daniel Medvedev, Alexander Zverev, Alex de Minou, Lorenzo Mazzetti, Felix Auger-Eliassime and Jakub Mensik. This tournament ends a week on Sunday, which just feels so... They've got a whole Ryder Cup done in three days. we're going to be watching this event a week on Sunday I mean I probably won't because I'll be asleep but people will be

1:23:44Catherine Whitaker: yeah I mean WTA Beijing is this length and now we've got ATP Shanghai being this length what I would say is that I think one of the worst parts of these 12 day 1000 events is well it's lots of bad things but the slow start is a struggle what I would say is that here at least we've got the end of WTA Beijing. So it's kind of like the next few days is all going to be about WTA Beijing. Okay, you know, some of the seeds will play in Shanghai. They'll get going, but really we're concentrating on WTA Beijing. And then next week will be more about ATP Shanghai. So it's not like we've only got ATP Shanghai for the next few days.

1:24:26Catherine Whitaker: So that is perhaps slightly better with this weird scheduling that we've got right now. But yeah, Novak Djokovic starts against Marin Cilic, I saw. So maybe that's on my list of matches I don't need to see again. The exceptions to my rule.

1:24:48David Law: Marin only needs one. He's had one, hasn't he? He beat him up to Queens, didn't he?

1:24:55Matt Roberts: Marin's doing just fine, David. If anyone's having just one, it's Monfils. True. right we will be back with a podcast for change on Monday back on a Monday to review the final stages of Beijing and the opening stages of Shanghai and whatever other nonsense has happened in the tennis world over the next five days We have mascots plural for this episode. Animals being friends alert, everyone. We've got some goodens this week and it is from a gooden. this week's mascots are Layla and Batman Bobby you heard me Layla and Batman Bobby and they are nominated by the wonderful Hannah Timmons who is a great friend of the show and is in our fantasy league and is awfully good at it I don't know what she knows that I don't but maybe she should have a tennis podcast Yeah, Hannah really shows that we can't just say,

1:26:08Catherine Whitaker: oh, predictions are luck and a fluke, because Hannah's done it for a number of years and always been really good at it.

1:26:16Matt Roberts: Consistently good. And she's been very unlucky with her fantasy team.

1:26:22Catherine Whitaker: A lot of injury and a lot of scandal. She was leading the way, I think, for a long time. She even had Kei Nishikori on her team.

1:26:30Matt Roberts: Nishikori scandal. There is just no way of predicting that.

1:26:34Catherine Whitaker: No, desperately unlucky.

1:26:36Matt Roberts: An Ishikori romance scandal. There's just, you could not get more unlucky. Anyway, back to Layla and Batman Bobby. They are two of Hannah's furry cousins. She says, my cousin Cynthia is their awesome human. I love this. They just live across the James River from me and my animals. Layla may be part gremlin and Batman Bobby is probably descended from Catwoman. They love to play fight with one another. Then Layla will saunter off and go catch flies while Bobby sprawls out looking gorgeous. So Hannah hasn't actually specified who's who, but I'm going to confidently say that Layla is the delightful terrier, terrier-y looking dog.

1:27:21Matt Roberts: And Batman Bobby, obsessed with that name, is the absolutely startlingly beautiful shiny black cat that I'm looking at. And I do have a picture of them cuddling together, which is my absolute favourite thing. I need something went something went very wrong with my algorithm yesterday and I was being presented with all sorts of nonsense I didn't want. So I literally put into my search bar animals being friends and it sorted things right out. The Internet is back to now knowing what I want. So thank you, Hannah. And thank you, Leila and Batman Bobby and Hannah's cousin, Cynthia. For this week's mascots, we of course have our mascots, Phoebe, Maisie and Roger.

1:28:06Matt Roberts: Hello to you. Hello to our top folks and executive producers, Greg, Chris and Jeff. Shall we have some shout outs, Matt?

1:28:15Catherine Whitaker: We have Ben from London. I'm not Ben.

1:28:22Matt Roberts: Very simple. Could be someone I know. I know Ben's. I know a Ben.

1:28:27Catherine Whitaker: Well, Ben says...

1:28:28Matt Roberts: Actually, I know two Bens. One of them's in London.

1:28:33Catherine Whitaker: Well, Ben says, I think Catherine...

1:28:35Matt Roberts: Tell us more about Ben and let's see if it's the one I know.

1:28:37Catherine Whitaker: Ben says, I think Catherine is a fellow Ellis and John fan. So, you know, Ben knows stuff about you.

1:28:48Matt Roberts: I am an Ellis and John fan, yes. And Ben says, we're all Hammer legends. Yes, we are. Yeah. Are you on email, Ben? Just, we're cool. Unrivaled, you might say.

1:29:05David Law: That's strange. Ben. Like Ben Shelton. You sound great.

1:29:10Matt Roberts: Like Ben Shelton.

1:29:12David Law: Who we could do with having him back on the circuit. He is in Shanghai. Yeah, worried about that shoulder.

1:29:18Matt Roberts: Yeah. Thank you, Ben.

1:29:21Catherine Whitaker: We've also got Arda from Zurich, but originally from Ohio. Cleveland, Ohio

1:29:30Matt Roberts: Hello Arda Cleveland, Ohio used to be where I think IMG were based out of or certainly had a big office there, used to be where Gary Swain manager of John McEnroe and Amanda Anisimova lived, didn't he, yeah he was keen to move to Florida as I recall

1:29:54Catherine Whitaker: Well Arda's moved to Zurich

1:30:03Catherine Whitaker: and Arda is a cat lover and a violinist oh

1:30:09Matt Roberts: what a multi-layered person you are Arda you sound very chic love that I don't think we're going to find any tennis Arda's but I hope you will accept my Gary Swain story

1:30:26David Law: I think it's exceptional

1:30:32There we go

1:30:33Matt Roberts: Ohio of course home of Cincinnati There we go Thank you Arda Cheers Arda

1:30:40Catherine Whitaker: Finally we have Carol Hooper Hi Carol

1:30:45Matt Roberts: Hello Carol

1:30:45Catherine Whitaker: And Carol says that she recently bought a Tennis Podcast t-shirt to wear on Arthur Ashe Stadium Well that's an exceptionally

1:30:56David Law: Yes, Carol. Use of your time and resources.

1:31:00Matt Roberts: Yes, Carol. We love that. Tennis carols.

1:31:07Matt Roberts: We must have had this before.

1:31:09David Law: Let me open my Nick Imerson and Pam Shriver page.

1:31:15Matt Roberts: We have a document. We have a document. Carol King, the singer. Just padding time while David opens the document.

1:31:25David Law: shout out name suggestions we've got emily's we've got jillian's carol kirk carol kirkwood

1:31:31Matt Roberts: yes the bbc weather presenter that used to come to queens every year correct david that's right and present present the weather from queens first thing on a monday morning and our mate dave would

1:31:45David Law: be her personal chaperone that's right that's right we love to see uh carol all the time and Meanwhile, up pops Carol Zhao. Canadian. The world number 279.

1:32:06Matt Roberts: Well, at the time of writing. Yes, at the time of writing.

1:32:12David Law: Highest 131. So that's what Google tells me about. Because Nick Iverson...

1:32:19Matt Roberts: Oh, that's her live ranking. okay sorry i thought that was from the document yeah oh there's another one uh there's a carol

1:32:25David Law: young su lee uh who is ranked 230 in the world and that is her current highest ranking

1:32:34Matt Roberts: so there we are but she's she's on the up yeah is what she is carol look out for her uh carol carol arda and ben thank you very much for your support of the tennis podcast hope you have listened to and enjoyed Pam Shriver Relived. If you're a friend of the pod and you haven't already, do check it out. And if you'd like to become a friend, the link, as always, is in our show notes. We are part of the Athletic Podcast Network. We will be back on Monday. Thank you for listening. We'll speak to you then.

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