Alcaraz-Ferrero split!

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1:26Matt Roberts: Well, hello and welcome to the tennis podcast unexpectedly on this Wednesday afternoon. This is an unplanned free form live podcast with myself, Catherine Ritigan, Matt Roberts, It's David Law, Matt Futterman from The Athletic will be joining us very shortly. Indeed, we've been speaking to all of our contacts in the tennis world, pretty much all of whom are as shocked as you and I by the news that dropped earlier on today. The reason we are all here, which is the news that world number one Carlos Alcaraz has split from his longtime coach and self-labeled father figure, Juan Carlos Ferreiro. The news broken by Alcaraz on his own social media channels.

2:18Matt Roberts: This is translated from Spanish. Thank you, Matt Roberts. He says, it's very difficult for me to write this post. After more than seven years together, Juan Key and I have decided to end our time together as coach and player. Thank you for making my childhood dreams come true. True, we started this journey when I was just a kid and throughout this time you've been with me on an incredible adventure both on and off the court and I've thoroughly enjoyed every step of it with you. We've made it to the top and I feel that if our sporting paths had to part, it should be from up there, from the place we always worked towards and always aspired to reach.

2:56Matt Roberts: So many memories come to mind that it wouldn't be fair to choose just one. You have made me grow as an athlete, but above all as a person and something I value greatly. I have enjoyed the process. I will remember that the journey we've taken together. Now, times of change are coming for us both new adventures and new projects, but I'm certain that we will face them in the right way, giving our best as we always have done. I sincerely wish you all the best in everything that comes your way. I'm comforted by the knowledge that we gave our all, that we offered everything to each other. Thank you for everything, Juanqui.

3:31Matt Roberts: And those words were accompanied by a carousel of very moving photos, most of which featured Alcaraz Ferreiro hugs. And let me tell you, as somebody that searched Alcaraz Ferreiro on Getty Images earlier, there is no shortage of hug photos. You could make several montages out of that alone. Ferrero himself followed very soon after, obviously, a coordinated PR effort with his own statement. He said, today is a difficult day, one of those when it's hard to find the right words. Saying goodbye is never easy, especially when there are so many shared experiences behind it. We've worked hard, grown together and shared unforgettable moments.

4:12Matt Roberts: I want to thank you for the time, the trust, the learning and above all, for the people who have surrounded me throughout this journey. I take with me laughter, challenges overcome, conversations, support during difficult months and the satisfaction of having been part of something truly unique. Today, a very important chapter of my life comes to an end. I close it with nostalgia, but also with pride and excitement for what may come next. I know that everything I've lived has prepared me to be better. Thank you, Carlos, for the trust, the effort and for making your way of competing make me feel so special.

4:44Matt Roberts: I wish you all the best, both professionally and personally. I would also like to thank the entire team for making my work easier throughout all these years. With you, I've learned that work is not just about tasks or results, but about the people who walk alongside you. Each and every one of you has left a mark on me that I will never forget. We have been an incredible team despite the difficulties, and I'm sure you will continue to achieve great success. I wish I could have continued. I'm convinced that good memories and good people always find a way to cross paths again. And thank you from the bottom of my heart.

5:18Matt Roberts: Matt, what was your reaction when this news dropped?

5:24Catherine Whitaker: I was pretty shook, you know, I think like a lot of people. I was not on alert for this at all. You know, we've seen Alcarez on vacation in Miami. Yesterday he was doing some pre-season fitness testing, I think. Everything appeared to be sort of business as usual in the Alcaraz world, you know, kind of poetically reflected in his hair going back to normal, you know, like everything was normal in the Alcaraz world as far as I was concerned. um so I was not expecting this at all but the first thing I saw when I opened Instagram was as you described one of those um hug photos from the carousel and I immediately was like oh my god this this feels like that's going to be accompanied by some news um and look I think a lot of people are feeling shocked or stunned and I think because the you know the Alcaraz Ferreiro coaching player relationship is the kind of relationship that we all sort of like to romanticize right and we've and we've witnessed its entire arc and journey as Alcaraz has become the best player in the world you know like from their coming together when they were 18 and Ferreiro turning down other offers and taking Alcaraz under his wing and working together and turning him into the world number one or certainly being part of that you know we've seen the hugs I think we've all sort of got that kind of connection to this coaching relationship just from the outside so it kind of feels like sort of shocking news to everyone but you know at the same time there were some hints in the Netflix documentary that kind of everything wasn't quite as rosy as it seemed perhaps and yeah certainly I've spoken to some well one Spanish journalist in particular which I'll talk more about but he's sort of described it in in less shocking terms actually and and the more I've processed it and thought about it over the last few hours I'm still shocked not going to lie but I I can make sense of it in a way that I sort of couldn't in the first initial stages of seeing the Instagram post yeah people that aren't

7:43Matt Roberts: shocked by this news are some members of the spanish media and uh matthew our camera operator who claims he saw it coming david tvc or whether we believe him he claims so yeah did you see it coming no i didn't uh i i i could claim to be wise after the event and and you know we're going to hear from matt futterman as well who who i think was more was less surprised by the news certainly than I was and I think the reason that I'm surprised is because of how reliant Alcaraz has always seemed on Ferreiro and understanding of his importance and Ferreiro understanding of his own importance to Alcaraz maybe that's the cause of the friction in the absence of of knowing the the exact reasons from each one of them maybe maybe he's asserted some of his authority in Alcraz has taken umbrage to it.

8:43I don't know when I think back now yes I can see the point made about that documentary. That documentary wasn't in tone what I was expecting and I definitely had some problems with the pitching of Alcraz as having to go on this journey of greatness. I didn't like that at the time I didn't put all of that at Ferreira's door. I put that more at his agent's door really than anything else um but but i also think maybe it's maybe if you think logically about it when you've taken over with somebody when they're such a young person when you're they're a child really and then they become an adult and start to have as a parent i can see it with my own son opinions you know and you're trying to you're trying to sort of keep some control and some some some influence and yet you've got to understand that they're going to have their own views then maybe it's not that surprising i think it's just it just feels like massive news because of how how important he is in the game and how how rare this is for a for a coaching story to take this sort of attention you know for us to do a show like this about a coaching split is rare i think maybe we we might have done one if we'd have been doing this a year ago about Djokovic and Murray starting together um but and maybe when Murray ended with Lendl but there's really not that many of them that can stop you in the tracks and this really did stop me in my tracks.

10:19Yep me too I can't claim to have seen this coming I am now remembering all of the

10:26Matt Roberts: the amber or red flags that came up while watching that documentary. And same as you, you know, that documentary was not what I was expecting and didn't make me feel sort of warm and fuzzy about that relationship in the way that I was expecting. But to claim that I saw this coming would be an outright lie. Not so, potentially, though, for The Athletic's Matt Futterman. Welcome, Matt. We checked in with you and your athletic colleagues upon hearing this news. And you said actually that ever since watching the documentary, you had been on somewhat alert for this news. What level of shock were you today?

11:14I wasn't really shocked at all. I mean, I figured I was shocked a little bit of the timing just because I thought I thought maybe next year it would come. I didn't think it would be this year. And also shocked a little bit by the if it was sort of like an offseason plan, it seemed like the thing that he might have done a few weeks ago rather than what are we mid-December at this point. So those are my two thoughts. And basically just based on like having watched a lot of these relationships that are, like David said, you know, their roots happen in childhood years. it's hard to sort of transition them to adulthood.

12:09That may not be what's going on here, but there are a couple, there are two, I mean, there's two sort of interesting phrases that I sort of stayed in my ears with those statements. One was despite the difficulties and the other was, I wish I could have stayed, which sort of, to me, support sort of opposite potential conclusions about what was driving this. And, you know, for all we know, it had nothing to do with any, any like tension about Carlitos wanting to go to Ibiza more or something like that. It just may be like family pressure and Juan Carlos couldn't travel anymore or something along those lines, which is what, you know, I wish I could have stayed may have been or sometimes I wish I could have stayed is I wish we could have come to terms.

13:03Matt Roberts: So a couple of just to pick up quickly on one thing you said that is it is it possible given the sort of slightly surprising timing is it possible that this did happen a couple of weeks ago at the start of the offseason and we're only hearing about it now or is it not possible enough these days to keep something a secret? I would think that would be possible especially because like team Alcaraz is a pretty tight knit group and it's mostly family. There's a lot of, there's a lot of that around there. I mean, there's really sort of just like a couple of sort of professional and outsider types. One being, you know, being Albert Molina, his agent and another being one, Carlos and Sammy Lopez.

13:55And obviously he's got a fitness trainer and things like that. But, you know, he doesn't have like a massive posse there. And so if there was ever a group that could sort of keep things sort of quiet and tight, I would think it would be Team Carlos.

14:17Matt Roberts: Yeah, that's a good point. We just don't know what – we'll know before too long, I think. What went down? I would think so, sure. Do you think we will get the gory details? Sure. I'm always confident in that. I'm always confident in my ability or our ability or the ability of my colleagues to uncover gory details. You know, information as a way of coming out, especially in tennis. Look, I know it's purely speculation at this point. Genuinely, like, we've asked around a lot. And Matt, I know you've got some tidbits from Spanish media, but nobody seems to know exactly what the story is here. But Matt Futterman, or feel free any Matts to come in here, but I'm specifically directing it at Matt Futterman.

15:10Matt Roberts: Why did you see this coming? Why is this not a surprise to you? What did you see in that relationship? Was it purely what you saw in the Netflix documentary? Is it more about what you know of coach-player dynamics generally and the expiration period they tend to have on them? I guess I saw just sort of in body language and tone sometimes and just sort of general demeanor with Juan Carlos and Alcaraz's development. And it's just at some point I thought he was going to get tired of sort of being spoken to as a teenager or a 15 year old, which is something I just I guess I just saw a lot of. And like at some point, and I think many things could be true here because I think all of these sort of all of these dynamics alter the calculation when a coach is deciding or a player is deciding whether they want to continue with this coach player relationship.

16:24um so i think there's there could be an element of that an element of alcaraz just being like you know i'm an adult now i kind of want to be in charge i don't want to take directions i think you've seen that a lot with coco goff um like she definitely has the desire to be like the ceo of coco goff incorporated and you know rather than her father and sort of there's like a tension there And that's just sort of a natural development and a healthy development that people can and do and should go through. So that's all okay. And then also some things that come into this sometimes is money. You know, like all of the – that is a calculation.

17:08And I guess as an American, I'm biased, and I always think it's about the money. you know the more they there was a general manager the New York Giants football team who you know used to say the more they tell you it's not about the money the more it's actually about

17:22Matt Roberts: the money right yeah and in tennis it's generally and increasingly about the money I mean like these coaching I mean coaches a lot of they get a base salary but they also I don't know the intricate details of the deal between the two of them but generally coaching coaching deals are you get some sort of base salary and then you're getting like commissions on both on both sponsorships and on winnings and as those things reach sort of gargantuan levels you know being the coach ends up being really good and the player and his sort of business managers want to sort of bring those commission levels down to sort of keep the the the salaries and the compensation from getting too out of control like i said i don't know that that's what happened here but it's an inevitable thing that happens and when someone's deciding about like well do i want to continue well how much you're going to pay me and is it worth it and all of these things like get factored into just like they get factored into anyone deciding about what sort of job they want to pursue matt roberts does this all chime with what you've gleaned from your spanish contacts matt's been deploying all of his degree level spanish today and we thank him for that

18:55Catherine Whitaker: yeah a chance to send a whatsapp in spanish is a great thrill has to be said and i did that to uh alejandro ferrita who works for el país one of the main newspapers in spain who's someone we see a lot of the grand slams um and you know he is he is right there in the in the spanish journalists you know pack that go to all the alcaraz press conferences and have interviews, you know, he's pretty in the know. And he said something pretty similar, you know, which was in his words, again, I've translated this, but he says, the change is a natural progression in Carlos's career. Ferreira's profile was ideal for his professional launch and rise to the top of tennis, but now perhaps his needs are different.

19:48Catherine Whitaker: He's already 22. He knows the ins and outs of the elite level. and change could be a beneficial stimulus to avoid complacency and a new challenge. Plus, and I think this is the bit that really chimes with what Matt's been saying, Carlos is increasingly aware of his own importance and status, and he's having more and more influence on the decision-making that surrounds him and his team. He says the timing might be surprising for a lot of people, especially coming off such a great season and you know with the chance to complete the career grand slam just around the corner but the point he makes is that Carlos actually hasn't started his pre-season training yet like this is not a mid pre-season training move it's literally starting right now and I think that's why the announcement has come out right now because otherwise it would be it would generate gossip right like where is Ferreiro he's not being seen at pre-season so he's starting now and this is allowing Samuel Lopez who is already part of Alcaraz's team and I think that was maybe a sign that Alcaraz was already thinking along these lines when he brought Samuel Lopez in full-time earlier in the season he's going to be the head coach he's going to stay on as the head coach and sort of take the reins so I think you know the timing of the announcement is very much in line with Alcarez starting properly his his pre-season training after his holiday and the um and the and the and the sort of exhibitions that he's played um Alejandro also said that a factor was definitely Ferreira's desire to travel less um and I asked how big a factor that was he said certainly not the main motivation he says several factors at play from now on I would say the working relationship between Ferreira and Alcaraz is over there'll be no further collaboration so no kind of like Ferreira will pop up at the slams or anything right no this is this is it this is a this is a split and yeah look I think it's an important moment for a player right to know when to move on from a coaching partnership to know when it's reached the end of its lifespan and I think sometimes some players certainly with sort of fatherly figures can get a bit stuck and personally

22:18Matt Roberts: maybe to even anticipate the end of the lifespan just before it right and and look I thought I

22:25Catherine Whitaker: thought Ferrero probably had more to give I'm surprised but like knowing when to move on and it can be an important thing for a player to do. And, you know, I think it could be a big moment. Look at like Sinner and Piatti.

22:43Matt Roberts: Exactly. Which seemed like such a bold, ruthless thing to do at the time, but unquestionably the right thing for him. Yeah, that was in retrospect, like an absolute masterstroke. and Vignazzi, who he brought on, is much more of like a Sammy Lopez kind of figure in terms of, you know, he's not this sort of icon of the game. He's a lot, he's, well, is he a lot, yeah, I mean, sort of just stature wise. Yeah, I think the power dynamic is pretty clear in that relationship in a way that it wasn't necessarily right there with piatti who you know was telling sinner like how much time he should spend with his girlfriend and stuff like that i mean you know and i think and sinner was just sort of like yeah i i think i kind of want to make that decision at this point um and that's just you know that's how i would say that's i would say that's pretty healthy but i

23:47Catherine Whitaker: I suppose the Sinner-Piati split did come at a time when, like, obviously Sinner was doing well, but if you remember, he just...

23:57Matt Roberts: He wasn't world number one.

23:57Catherine Whitaker: He wasn't world number one, and he just got pretty blown away by Sitsapas at that Australian Open, you know? And, like, there was a bit of a sort of career reckoning moment, whereas Alcarez, it's not that, you know? I think there is a... I would definitely draw a comparison to that, but there is a key difference as well. I would also start the clock on Pablo Carreño Busta becoming a coach as well. I mean, I just feel like he's been around Alcaraz since he was a kid too. They're incredibly close. He's showing up at his matches all the time. He listens to them. I mean, I go back to like the first Grand Slam match he ever played during the COVID Australian Open, and it was like me and six other people, and one of them was was Cran Busta you know he's been raised there and I would like I would be shocked if at some point in the future he didn't become the Moya to Al-Karaz you know to the Moya the Irani

25:02Matt Roberts: to Al-Karaz's Paulini yeah without the doubles something like that I'd go more Moya Nadal or you know rather than

25:11Catherine Whitaker: you know rather than but frankly krenia buster is just glad to be mentioned in the same breadth as mayer and irani here like this is big for him pablo krenia buster is thrilled with this podcast right now right i am i i am his hype man so the um everyone needs one not everyone has david law

25:32Matt Roberts: The point you've all made about kind of all coaching player, coach player relationships, even the best ones having an expiration date and sort of knowing when that is and anticipating what that is. Geary Nathan, who I had a quick chat with earlier, Alcaraz Sinner, expert, author of Changeover, the Alcaraz Sinner book. We had him on the show earlier this year, fantastic journalist and writer. he reminded me of a recent quote from Gilles Savara about his split with Daniel Medvedev, who he'd been with for, well, seemingly forever, longer even than Alcaraz and Ferreira, quite a lot longer, actually.

26:21Matt Roberts: And he described it as like being in a boat at sea. And he said, at some point the engine stops, but you don't see it because the boat continues gliding. After a while, that energy is gone and you're stuck mid-sea trying to restart the engine. It's a great quote. And I guess he could be trying to sort of, you know, the gliding, I guess the point he's making there is the gliding can mask the stalling of the engine. And if you're Carlos Alcaraz and the stakes are world number one level high and fighting for the career slam high, you don't want to wait till you're stalling before you make the big decision.

27:10Matt Roberts: I don't know, David, what do you think? You've been speaking to Spaniards as well. You've done a degree in Spanish today. Yeah, I mean, Matt probably had more success because of his ability to communicate with them. But actually, I spoke to Manuel Sanchez, a Spanish journalist for FAA in London, actually. And I remember speaking to him when Alcaraz won his second Wimbledon. And he just, I think he's got a good reading, even though he doesn't necessarily work in full time in tennis, he just has a good sense. And he thought that it was very much coming from the Alcaraz side. He said, I can't stand that up, but this is how the statements read to me and the things that he's hearing.

27:56And I just feel like if you go even just sort of nostalgically and with examples from the past, there aren't coach-player relationships that really last for a career. Even though it kind of felt like this might be one of them just because of the type of the relationship they had. And I realize that's me being naive and in hindsight it looks ridiculous now. But I didn't see this moment coming personally. But Tony Nadal and Rafael Nadal, who would have thought that they would split? And eventually they did. I mean, obviously they still love one another and all the rest of it. But the time came. And actually Nadal had significant results after that relationship ended.

28:47Most players have several coaches in their careers. and I do think that maturing process of a human being if nothing else needs they need room to to grow and and it's it's it means the coach has probably got to take a different role in their life in a in a way and it's that that is in inherently challenging I think for both individuals um but but but at the same time I wouldn't be that surprised if one day they started working together again just be you know they're splitting now but i don't think that that means that they won't work together again once they've maybe kind of reframed their dynamic if

29:30Matt Roberts: the issue is like they've they've built their relationship on the foundations of a parent child dynamic and which one of them is now outgrown maybe if they can kind of redefine that dynamic in the future. Just to bring you Giri's thoughts, obviously, he got to know all of the dynamics very, very well over the course of writing his book. And he was shocked. He posted on Instagram that he was extremely shocked by this news. I said, do you have any idea what happened? He said, not really. But my educated guess is that it's either that Carlos was finally sick of him or contract disagreements. He said it has to be financial or emotional because the on-court results are hard to argue with.

30:18Matt Roberts: He said just a year ago they built an elite serve. Imagine what else they could have done. He said he thought they'd make it to a decade. So they were about three years shy of that. But yeah, logically that does check out, doesn't it? that kind of it can't be on the basis of results can it like results were resulting well it's also weeks like you know that i mean when he says financial and this was what i was getting at also in terms of the compensation i mean one carlis was pretty clear about that he doesn't really love to be away all that much and you know i've spoken with darren cahill about this and you know some other people who have like two coaches and it always comes down to like how many weeks can you give me and how much am I going to pay you for those weeks and what weeks are those going to be?

31:12And because look, let's face it, nobody, including the players wants to be on the road 40 weeks a year, which is basically what they are. And, you know, that's incredibly, incredibly trying for, for anybody to have any sort of personal life. And it's just, it's just a lot. And so I think in addition to all the other dynamics that were going into it, you know, it's like anything. It's, you know, how much am I going to have to work and how much am I going to get paid for it? Today's show is brought to you by Vanguard. To all the financial advisors listening, let's talk bonds for a minute. Capturing value in fixed income isn't easy.

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34:05Matt Roberts: so that's kind of speculation about educated speculation about what might have happened and what potentially precipitated this we have to do the we have to do what does it mean Matt you are you're welcome to leave if you can't be asked with the hypothetical predictions about what this might mean this is your this is your your big opportunity to leave If not, we're going to detain you for speculation. Speak now or forever. Hold your peace. On what does this mean to... What does this mean for Alcaraz and what next? I think it means that he's... He's doing it. He's doing it. He's jumping right in.

34:46I think it means... He's taking the bait. It means that, you know, the little boy is growing up, right? Like, he was going to grow up sometime. Like he will, I think he will like retain that sort of youthful smiling spirit that like waves, still waves to you from 50 yards away when he's, when like he hasn't seen you in a while. And he does that to like a ridiculous amount of people. And so like, I think he'll always do that. I don't think like that element of him, that kid in him is ever going to completely go away. but I think he's going to be increasingly in control of his destiny and making more decisions for himself and we'll see how he can handle that that will be something to take on and that will be something to navigate because it's not that easy And it's not that – and like the problem with tennis but any sort of athletic career is that you're sort of forced into this CEO role when you're 22 and you absolutely are not qualified to be running a – whatever it is.

36:14Business. An eight-figure business. Eight-figure millions and just more than$100 million revenue business a year. That's a really big responsibility. But inevitably, you sort of have to do it because you are the product and it's your time and you've got to start making decisions. And you'll want to be making the decisions because it's about you. uh so i just think it means like a new challenge for him in addition to trying to be really really good at tennis you know we'll see how he can handle this and i do think that that was a transition that sinner made a little earlier and was well he's older so you know if we i mean that's that's one thing we sort of forget about we sort of put them right to right together but between you know the parting with Piatti, the venturing off into his own sort of, you know, parting with his agent, Lawrence Franklpan, and going on to sort of his own venture.

37:24Like, it's something that I think he was sort of more comfortable with and ready to take on. And now we'll see if Carlos is ready to take it on as well.

37:35Catherine Whitaker: That was all really, really smart and insightful. But what I mean by what does it mean is, does this make you more confident about the career slam being completed in Australia, less confident, or does it make no difference whatsoever?

37:56Matt Roberts: Yeah, like this absolutely might be the best thing for Carlos Alcoraz in the long term. And presumably he believes it is. And that's why he's making this decision. but it could come at a short-term cost, right? How do we feel, how do we all feel, purely speculatively, about how this will affect Carlos Alcraz in the short term, whose most important part of the season is his first two weeks of the season? He has told us that, that he would rather win one Australian Open than two other slams next season. next season he wants to become the youngest man ever to complete the career slam david what is your what's your feeling well on our friends q and a show last night we were asked by one of our barge contributors which of our kraz sinner sviontek and sabalenka will complete the career slam in 2026 and i actually said three of them which i now think is was it with what was i thinking anyway uh but i mean i was until this news i was going to stick with that um and now my foundations have been rocked a little bit by this because i really did think alcaraz was going to do it i think svantec's going to do it in australia i think that sinner is going to win the win the french open and sabalenko is going to have to wait a while but this in the short term I can imagine a little bit like when he made his tweaks to his serve and he's trying to do something a bit differently.

39:33When it gets stressful he's going to look over his shoulder for Juan Carlos Ferreira on that court and he ain't going to be there. And that's never happened I don't think at a Grand Slam tournament before has it? Maybe it has when Ferreira hurt his knee once. I'm not sure. But to me that's significant. I don't think that that's insignificant at this stage of his life. I think he will get to grips with that, and he might get to grips with it immediately. He's never looked more emphatic than he did at the US Open. He was sensational. And I feel as though one of the great things was he finished Wimbledon and he said to Ferreira and the team, I want to work out what I've got to do to beat this guy again because he's doing stuff that I'm struggling to cope with.

40:24and they went away and they built a game that dominated that US Open. And it was one of the fewest times that I've seen him looking over and feeling like he was leaning on Ferreira. But I don't... And in the long term, I think that that could be the net result of this move is that he just doesn't need to do that and then he becomes this complete player who's an adult on the court and mature. but in the short term I think the road could get a bit bumpy that I think is what Matt Roberts is getting at Matt Futterman is is you know could this be a bumpy road for it for for a period I think it's best I mean the wild card in all this is he's not playing another tournament before the Australian Open I mean this is just sort of it's going to be sort of baptism by fire and um that's a little i would say if i were an odds maker i'd make the odds a little longer um for him to win in australia i mean he probably wasn't going to be the favorite going in anyway just because he's all i wouldn't think so just because sinners won twice in a row and he's probably a better hardcore player still, despite what we saw at the US Open.

41:48So, yeah, it's a little more, I would say it's definitely like more challenging.

41:54Matt Roberts: There was a time, Matt, when we sort of percolated a theory that actually Ferreira was a problem and a crutch, right? Like he went on a little spell of actually winning, having his best results when Ferreira wasn't there.

42:12Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, I remember, I think it was Queen's 2023, I believe, which was one that he won with just Samuel Lopez there. And, you know, that was kind of an important tournament, I think, for Alcarez, that one, you know, like he'd been good, obviously, at the start of 2023, but he hadn't been like sort of absolutely as electric as maybe everyone had kind of expected. And this year, he sort of kick-started his whole season with a win in Monte Carlo, which I think again was a Samuel Lopez only week. So he's definitely played good tennis, Carlos Alcarez, when Juan Carlos Ferreira hasn't been around at tournaments.

42:50Catherine Whitaker: But it is different if he's not around at all. And I come down on the same side as David and Matt really. Like sort of long term could end up being a sort of good thing. But short term, it does feel a little bit like advantage sinner, you know to use a tennis term at the Australian Open just with that stability.

43:16Matt Roberts: I guess for Alcaraz though obviously he's known about the situation longer than we've known about the situation his equation is am I more likely to win the Australian Open if I get rid of Ferraro now than if I wait like for us the equation is he's less likely to win it now than previously on the basis of the knowledge we had previously. But for him, he's more likely to win it now that he's... I can only assume that given he's told us how much of a singular goal really that is for him for next year. He thinks he's now more likely to win the Australian Open and achieve that goal without Ferreira there, which I guess is a real indication of, you know...

44:06Unless he didn't have a choice. yeah unless they just fell out he said he wanted to stay on but well right but that could also mean like i wish i could have stayed but i wish circumstances were different but like i wish we could have reached an agreement but my marriage is falling apart or or i wish i could have reached you know like they it may not have been ultimately his call there's a lot of people speculating

44:32Matt Roberts: sort of in the chat and elsewhere i've seen this that this is about al corers not being disciplined enough and wanting to go to Ibiza and Ferrero not being into that and wanting to stop him going to Ibiza. Is that bollocks? How much is this about Ibiza? I think that's bollocks. Or like what Ibiza represents, you know, what we use Ibiza as a byword for with Carlos Alcaraz, which is, you know, he's needing to let off steam. his not being a totally machine-like being in the way that we unreasonably expect athletes to be. I could definitely see all of these things could be factors. I could believe that it's not just one thing.

45:18And to Matt Futterman's point earlier about the fact that we'll end up finding out, I don't think either one of these two people have good liars. I think that they're both very honest. And I mean, it didn't take long for Ferreira to spill the beans about why he and Zverev split up, for instance, if you think back. And I don't think Alcaraz is a great poker face, to be honest. So, you know, I think we're going to find out. But yeah, I think it could be a number of things all wrapped into the one that ended up with this situation. I do think that the one thing that came out of the Netflix Carlos Alcaraz commercial was that there are these two sides to him.

46:04And I would say one of them might be represented by the sort of Ferrero Molina, like be the greatest in history. Like, yes, that is obviously part of his brain. He's given up his life for this mission. But there's obviously another side to him, which is, I would just say was summed up in his mother, which is like, he needs like, he needs to be like a person and needs to have some quiet time. You know, I'm using that. I'm using that term, like, you know, in the most loose way, because I think some of Carlos's quiet time is not all that quiet. But he needs, as you said, to blow off steam. And I think there are those two things in there.

46:50And so was Ibiza the ruling factor and no, I want to drink with my friends more? Like maybe not, but like he does have to have a couple of – he has to have those two elements to his life in a way that, you know, there are other players that I meet who may not be as good as Alcaraz but are truly like fully consumed by the pursuit of something. and while I think Carlos is to agree consumed by it all, like I say, I think he does really recognize the wisdom that his mother was expressing of like, yeah, he needs to sit around with all of us and eat my roast suckling pig or whatever they were eating there and just be himself.

47:56Matt Roberts: Do you think there's any question now over Molina's position? Or is he completely secure in that team? Albert Molina, his agent, who featured very prominently in the documentary. I mean, I think that's a larger question of like... I guess like were Ferreiro and Molina kind of tethered in some way? Does this make him a bit more of a... Molina did put him with Ferreira. And so I think it's at, look, at some point, and it may have already happened just in turn, and it's just sort of in name only because whether he's... At some point, Carlos Alcaraz is either, is going to decide, like, does he want to continue to be an IMG athlete Or does he want to do what all of the other greats have done, including Sinner, already, which is, you know, why am I paying these people a commission when I can call up Rolex myself and renew my contract with them?

49:07So, you know, and but what has happened in those situations is that the IMG agent has left IMG to head up the corporation, you know, the individual corporation. You see that with Tony Godzik and Federer and you saw that with Nadal and how sort of like he went off on his own. And so at the same time, IMG recognizes this and they are sort of, I think, experimenting with structures because you saw that Coco Gauff has her own company that is sort of within the corporate realm of IMG. And so she's sort of neither fish nor fowl. She's both an IMG athlete and also has this Coco Guff Enterprises. Naomi Osaka is another one who did it with Stuart, who was an IMG, Stuart Dugood, who is an IMG agent and now runs Naomi's company.

50:16So there's a pattern there. So is, I mean, is Molina, like, quote, unquote, in trouble? I think that is a very layered question with all sorts of elements of the tennis business and what ultimately Carlos Alcaraz Incorporated becomes over the next 10 years, but really also over the next 40 years.

50:44Matt Roberts: Okay, last bit of point that's soon to be out of date speculation. I'm afraid you have missed your off-ramp, Matt. so you're in this now. If Carlos Alcaraz... It's what we call a Jewish goodbye. You know, it takes a really long time to say goodbye. Right, okay. That's what we... Right. If Carlos Alcaraz were to seek a replacement for the head coach role rather than promote from within, who might he go for other than pablo karenia buster david matt's all matt's all in on karenia buster so he's not even going to give you another option um i mean it's funny i did flick on the the chat a moment ago and and saw some names flying around people like marion vider and um people like that that have worked with all sorts of people it's yeah hannah in the chat is currently making the case that Roger Federer would not be a good coach.

51:47Matt Roberts: So good luck, Tanner. Was Andy Murray on a golf course today?

51:50Catherine Whitaker: I mean, probably yes. And did he get a call? The thing is, I do think it's quite, I'd be surprised if he would follow a big personality, a big tennis personality like Ferreira, who's been a world number one and is a pretty iconic coach. I'd be quite surprised if he followed him with another big name, with another super coach or another significant, because I think, I suspect he does want to hear his own voice and I suspect he does want to run things really. And some coaches wouldn't be prepared to be that, you know. And so I'm not convinced that we're going to get a name as such. I think, I can believe Matt's view on Corinna Buster or people like that, certainly in the short term.

52:42Matt Roberts: Do you think Grunibuster is not a name? He's not a super coach in my book. He may become one. You know, there are people that have, I mean, Darren Cahill wasn't a super coach until he started coaching. You know, he wasn't coming out as an amazing ex-player. But I just, I don't see him going big like that. And look, he may prove me wrong completely. He may have a cast iron plan, But I sort of feel as though he might end up having to get it wrong a bit first and think, oh, crikey, you know, this isn't all it was cracked up to be. I need a strong voice here who's been there and done it. But I don't see that being the next stage.

53:26Think of when Federer split from Lundgren and went for several years on his own, just didn't have a coach. And then he had Tony Roach, I think, after that. But, you know, it took a while.

53:39Matt Roberts: Matt Roberts, take my bait, please.

53:43Catherine Whitaker: I mean, you're not going to like it, but I think you can underrate the role of Samuel Lopez here. You know, he's his coach, you know, and I think that he has been an important figure. The Crenia Busta connection is to him, right, as well. You know, he coached Crenia Busta for many, many years. He's a serious coach. he knows what he's doing he'll have been part of that remodeling the serve that that was so successful this year like I think my guess would be a period with him just him and you know kind of leaning into what Matt said earlier about you know the sort of Alcarez team being kind of like a family you know I think it would take it would take quite uh it would take quite a character to come in there from the total outside and feel very comfortable instantly and for them all to feel comfortable with him you know like i think if it is going to be someone else if there is going to be a super coach role my expectation would that would likely be someone spanish and you know like just just generally just sort of to keep the sort of general sort of vibes the same as as okay so

54:55Matt Roberts: It's basically Pablo Carreño Busta or nothing. Ferrer. No, the other one is Ferrer because Molina was Ferrer's agent and made him an incredibly rich man. And I think they remain quite close. And so I don't know what Ferrer's personal life is like right now or whether he's willing to take on something like this, but he would be another character that I would put in a collection of names of people that might at some point, you know, coach Alcaraz. I think Pereira is still an IMG represented person. I'm not sure about that. But that would be the other name that would be at the forefront of my mind.

55:46Because I do think the Spanish players particularly seem to be a lot of Spanish coaches. I think there's a reason for that. I think there's a lot of good Spanish coaches. So there's not necessarily a reason why they have to go get Darren Cahill. They have a pretty good crop of tennis minds going all the way back to, I'll throw out Jose Higueras is about how far back my memory is going to go for Spanish coaches, which I guess gets me back to the late 80s. So, you know, that's pretty far.

56:28Matt Roberts: Alvaro Alcaraz as well. Could he be in for a promotion if everybody's moving up a rung? Does Alvaro upgrade from shit hairdresser to sort of sub coach? Is that his trajectory?

56:42Catherine Whitaker: And maybe when Carlos goes to Jaime Alcaraz and we just start this thing back up again.

56:49Matt Roberts: Right. I mean, he's sort of been a, like, hitting partner slash vibes guy, Alvaro. Yeah, I don't think he's going anywhere. Right. By the way, Matt was good. Well, Uncle Tony got the push, didn't he? Matt was good at the what does it mean section, wasn't he? Very. Yeah. Very. Yeah. Good at the speculation. Excellent. Yeah. Any other pointless speculation that will soon be out of date that anybody would like to proffer? No, I'd just like the season to start now. And we're going to have four career slams? Is that what you said? Four career slams? I said three. Only three. Don't be ridiculous. Come on.

57:42Matt Roberts: So nobody now thinks Carlos Alcaraz is winning the Australian Open. We might be down to two now. I'm going to give that some further thought. come back after the new year and I'll give you my definitive yeah there's a friends Q &A show that we now need to expunge from the internet recorded less than 24 hours ago I'm just impressed that we're already at Yannick Centre winning the French Open like we're so far away from a ball dropping on red clay welcome to my brain Matt

58:14Catherine Whitaker: Matt you've listened to the pub before right like

58:20Matt Roberts: Do you know, I am annoyed that this has happened after our Andy Murray interview. I'd love to speak to Andy Murray about this. Well, it's a golf course. He's on the 13th hole right now is my guest. Right. Yeah. Matt, it has been dark here for about two and a half hours. Not even Andy Murray is on a golf course right now. It's frigging grim. But this has been fun. Thank you. thank you Carlos Alcaraz for giving us something fun to do on this miserable miserable winter's evening um thank you Matt Futterman for your time and uh for getting in the spirit of uh all the pointless speculation loved that thanks for having me and happy Christmas as the as the British aristocrats say right happy Christmas to you uh disappointed no ziggy cameo Do you want me to tilt my camera?

59:13Matt Roberts: Yes, please. Literally in position. Yes. Yeah, let's see. Oh, there we go. There we go. Ziggy is a good dog. This is where Ziggy... Ziggy, you want to say hello? There we go.

59:31That's where Ziggy spends most of her days when Amy is at the office.

59:38Matt Roberts: seeing as we're doing this is Billie Jean

59:44Matt Roberts: folks this has been great so many of you joined us yeah we'll do more of these as and when news allows as Matt said it'd be good to do our first emergency video podcast when it's not a doping ban bit of news let's seize on this opportunity to do this when it's

1:00:04Catherine Whitaker: yeah it felt like a good test case we could have some fun with it news we can have exactly yeah you don't want to be doing pointless speculation about doping do you right but we will be back

1:00:16Matt Roberts: when some doping news drops to do one of these uh or other other type of news uh thank you again matt and to you matt and david uh go and enjoy your evenings everyone happy holidays we're back on Sunday with our next podcast. We're back with an edition of Tennis Relived on Friday for Friends of the Pod on the subject of 50 years of wheelchair tennis. Why are you laughing, Matt?

1:00:43Catherine Whitaker: Well, you know, I had today penciled in for working on that and that got ruined. So, busy day tomorrow to get ready for Tennis Relived. Right.

1:00:54Matt Roberts: Yeah, we will probably be back on Friday with our final edition of Tennis Relived for 2025. and we'll definitely be back on Sunday with our next pod. Who knows what we'll be talking about, but tennis always delivers content. So whatever it is, we'll be here to chat about it. Thank you so much for your company tonight. Thank you all. Happy holidays. Goodbye.

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