BJK Cup - Italy survive, but can they defend their crown?

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1:17Matt Roberts: Hello and welcome to the tennis podcast, our second tennis podcast of the week, a four podcast week coming your way. We just cannot get enough podcasting. We're here to talk Billie Jean King Cup, which has concluded its quarterfinal stage and is moving on to the semifinal stage. And we'll be back to talk about those semifinals Saturday. Matt is here and he is sunburnt. Hello, sunburnt Matt. Hello. Yes, I'm sunburned in a very small portion of my face after playing golf on Tuesday with the British tennis journalists and forgetting that I have new hair. I very diligently applied sun cream to my face, but forgot my new hairline.

2:09I don't usually have to put the sun cream up that high and I wasn't wearing a hat. And now I've been confronted with various Zoom calls this week with our lights up for our podcast studios where it's become very obvious that I was an idiot and I have some comical sunburn on the top of my head. It's very tennis player coded to only have sunburn in like a very specific portion of your face that your sort of head accoutrement don't don't cover. It's very Stephanoset to pass off you. whether or not you think that's a good thing is up to you david how you doing he's a saudi king yeah no one's ever been more thrilled to be a saudi king than stephanov sit to pass

2:55David Law: or garuna maybe but anyway i am neither a saudi king nor a partially sunburned person um mainly because haven't been in the sun. So yes, but I did enjoy hearing about Matt's exploits on the golf course, which sounded like they went pretty well in my absence. So I've got some catching up to do. Yes, Matt, tell us about the golf. I think it was potentially the best golf I've ever played. I did need David's help in the bunkers. David has famously never failed to get out of a bunker in one go. And I turned the potential par into a quadruple bogey and that that rather ruins ruin my scorecard which was otherwise excellent what a team you would have been no i know it was those windy conditions which i think catch you out with with uh sunburn as well i'm trying to i'm trying to justify myself like it was it was sunny but it wasn't hot because it was really windy and i needed three layers on and I just didn't think that I was getting sunburned but apparently I was but I played well so maybe it's worth it I can believe that I was on the driving range with Matt on Sunday and it was a really unfortunate meeting of one person playing the worst golf that is well both that they have ever played and that potentially anybody in the history of golf has ever played and the other person just, just could miss.

4:34Matt was just cracking away, trying to not glory too much in how well he was playing while I was just air shotting all over the place. Then the rain started coming and Billie Jean started whining. It was, yeah, it was a whole scene. Anyway, very well played, Matt. Thank you for representing us so well at the British Tennis Journalists Association annual golf day. David will be back next year.

5:02Matt Roberts: It's a goal of mine to feel like I'm able to not embarrass myself at such events at some point in the future. So we'll see how we go. Turning our attention to Shenzhen and the Billie Jean King Cup finals. Our semi-final lineup is set with all four quarterfinals having been played. So it will be two semifinals, the first of them tomorrow, Friday, Italy against Ukraine, and the second of them, Great Britain against the USA. Those two ties, Great Britain's win and the USA's win, having been played today, Great Britain having wrapped up victory just over an hour ago. We'll talk about that in due course.

5:46Matt Roberts: Let's start at the beginning, shall we? With the Italy-China tie that kicked off the whole week in Shenzhen. What have been our initial impressions, aside from this tie and the drama of it that we will soon get into, But what have our general impressions been of these finals in its new venue and its new incarnation in Shenzhen with this eight-team format, David? Well, I think if you were turning on on day one, your impressions would be pretty much wholly positive. Because I think the staging of it looks very impressive on TV anyway. They've got a good arena there. it just feels like it's been in that arena for years.

6:36You know, you can often see some pretty kind of worrying moments at the start of a new staging of a new venue where things look as though they need some ironing out, and this wasn't that. But the main thing was that there was a great atmosphere, and too often, certainly the season-ending event that they had in Shenzhen and sometimes the other events that we've seen in Wuhan and Beijing sometimes lack atmosphere crowds and there was a great crowd on day one now obviously that was featuring the host nation and that is a difference maker I mean I I think overall that there were there were good decent there were decent numbers watching Kazakhstan against the US today and that was a good atmosphere and and it hasn't been sort of terrible in in in all of them but but it's been quiet in some of the others through the TV at least on some of the others.

7:30But on day one, when you got the host nation playing, it was fantastic. And look, China gave them a lot to shout about as well. I mean, that was a cracking tie. And really, they should have at least extended it into the doubles. And they probably should have won the whole thing because they were ahead in in both matches and I mean huge credit to Italy for for finding a way to win those two singles from behind but I'd be pretty gutted if I was the Chinese players to have got that close I wouldn't have expected them to get that close in the absence of Zhang Tianwen and yet they did and they still didn't win must hurt yeah we're looking at a tie here that was won

8:17Matt Roberts: 2-0 by the defending champions and the team that were heavy favourites to win this quarterfinal. And yet that is so far from telling the story of the tie. Both matches were served for by the Chinese players that ended up losing the matches. Yuan Yui served for her match, the first match of the tie against Elisabetta Cotciareto twice. She was a set and 5-2 up, was Yuan Yui. She was four love up in the decider, ended up losing the last five games in the match. Was this a comeback, a choke or both, Matt? Can I hand that question over to David? Because I was on the golf course.

9:06So we're here just to talk about your sunburn and your golf. Your contribution is done now, is it? And the other three ties, which I've watched. but you've very specifically come to me on the one that I didn't watch. I thought you might have done some catch-up. I overestimated you. David? Look, I've watched the highlights, but I don't feel well enough informed to make an accurate assessment on the level of choking. Well, I mean, I really did watch every... Come back or choke. I watched every ball of this. And I mean, look, it wasn't just duty either. This was really pulsating stuff. I was riveted by the action.

9:45And look, I'll be a bit smug about it. I've banged on about knockout tennis. And this is a perfect example of it. You could feel the nerves. You could feel the deadline. You could feel the desperation. And how tight Cucciarati was early on. I mean, she just couldn't play properly. And the only way was just on it. And she hits a big ball. I mean, she really strikes the ball well, you know. And I don't know, I just think how tight Yuan Yuan became when she was setting 5-2 up. I mean, you could just feel it coming. You could feel this turnaround coming. And honestly, when she got the first break back, Kocherito, I said, she's going to win this.

10:36You know, this is over. And actually, I say I've watched every ball. I think I took one short break at the end of that second set, and I came back, and suddenly it's 4-0 for UNA, and I couldn't see that coming at all. That just didn't feel likely. I thought, oh, brilliant, you know, this is for her, you know, what an amazing comeback, and this will likely extend the tie into the doubles, because Paolini was coming up, and she was obviously the favourite in her match. and then this this comeback started again and it was just the same thing this tightening of of of your new way and at the same time it was also cotierete just extending points extending rallies realizing what was going on down the other end of the court just not missing getting better as as it got tight and tense so i think you have to say it was a choke in terms of the tightness that kind of happened out there.

11:34But I also think you have to give massive credit for the Italian, not just getting down on yourself, not giving in. It would have been so easy to just think, it's not happening. I'm not playing well, especially in the second set there. And then when you lose your way in the third as well, I think it really was both. Because it wasn't like the ball was just spraying everywhere. I mean, these were extended rallies and you're watching it and you're thinking, I'm almost willing Yone Way to win because she's hanging in as hard as she can in these rallies and she just won't miss. Kuchirata just will not miss and eventually Yone Way missed and it was pretty heartbreaking actually to see that and I thought brilliant contest and then you know the second one started to go a similar direction.

12:25It was just a it was a real surprise to me watching it.

12:29Matt Roberts: Yeah, I think a lot of neutrals would have been rooting for Yuan Yue for a lot of reasons, but generally for the sake of the tie, because everybody knew what was coming was Jasmine Paulini against Wang Jin Yu. And Paulini, the very heavy favourite in this match. And yet she was second best for so much of this contest, David. Wang Jin Yu served for the match. and Paolini ended up coming through 4-6, 7-6, 6-4, like by her own admission, very far from her best at any stage in this match. But a real example of, I think someone from the Italian team put it in terms of, you know, how just playing for the flag, giving them that extra 10%, but she needed it in this match.

13:22Yeah, she just had to dig so deep because she was kind of getting outplayed and she also wasn't playing well. It was a very similar match really in terms of feel. and you know she would win long points and then just sort of getting from 30 all to 40 30 things like that and and just celebrating with a really guttural roar um and i thought wow you can just you can feel how much the ones the players that are there the the teams that are being represented how hard they're trying how much this is this means to them i mean i think it those that aren't there and the teams that didn't make it it can feel a little bit difficult to relate to I think unless you are unless you're one of the teams there or unless you really take the time to watch it and if you do my goodness it's worth it just shows what team sport can do in tennis and makes me makes me sad really that that it's not on an even bigger stage and that there's not more people taking notice and that they haven't worked out a calendar yet that properly allows for this and gets behind it the way say the US Open decided to get behind its own mixed doubles you know this this was fantastic sport the this this tie was was everything that that I want in sport and particularly team sport and there was true heartbreak in that first tie and there was jubilation from from team italy who've kept themselves afloat really when when they were

14:57Catherine Whitaker: bang up against it yeah that's kind of been my like big takeaway of watching these few days is that and look for me it's my first time watching the villaging king cup finals in its new form on tv rather than being there so i'm aware that i'm having a bit of a different experience anyway But my big takeaway has been that, yes, we can look at the crowds and we can look at the location and we can look at the calendar and all this kind of thing. And we can have, I think, valid criticisms of those aspects. But what always delivers is the matches, you know, like the players and the matches always provide drama, which sort of adds to the frustration that it isn't an even bigger event as David said there but like the number of compelling matches that I've watched at the Beijing King Cup over the last few years has been so many and I feel like we've had that again already this week okay like I think the four teams we probably expected to win all the ties have come through but many of the matches have been more dramatic and more exciting than we might have thought players have played better than we might have thought especially as you said yuan yui and wong jinyu for china like they're bringing it and i i feel like sort of frustrated that therefore the event isn't even bigger and these these players aren't getting the even bigger stage and attention that they deserve but also kind of like i don't know strangely proud of the of the fact that like still they show up and they play these matches and they're really compelling viewing like every time and there is something about these matches that if there are tour level matches I might not be hanging on every ball but because they're Billie Jean King Cup and they're playing for their country and the stakes feel big I am hanging on every ball and even in not necessarily a full stadium I know they were for these matches that we're just talking about that that drama and that tension has come through and yeah there's just There's just gold there to mine and the sport isn't doing it.

17:15And it's not the fault of the event. The event's trying, but factors in its way.

17:23Matt Roberts: I want to talk a little bit more about Paulini, but I feel like we should be able to look ahead to the semi-final when we do that. So let's talk about the other quarterfinal in this half of the draw. Ukraine beating Spain 2-0, Marta Kościuk and Elina Svitolina getting the job done here. Svitolina winning an absolute thriller, 7-5 in the third against Paola Bedossa. And Kościuk somewhat more comfortable straight sets, a tight first one, 7-6-6-2 against Jessica Bouthas-Monero. You happy to talk about this tie, Matt? Absolutely. You got some takes? Off you go. Let's have some takes. well first take was 9 a.m i think it was our time when the lineups dropped and paula bedosa is in

18:12Catherine Whitaker: for spain you know we weren't we weren't sure whether whether she was going to play or not we knew she was in the squad but was she healthy enough to play she hadn't played a competitive match in 78 days and here she is thrust into a pretty big one which turned out to be one that she needed to win to keep Spain alive because obviously Kostiuk had won for Ukraine in the first match which was a kind of really dramatic first set where neither of them could quite get the momentum it kept swinging back and forth Kostiuk actually in her post-match interview called out her own bad tie break record in in 2025 and said she was worried about having to go to a tie break because she's been so poor in them this year but I think she won I think only her second tie-wreck of the year, something like that, to win that first set and then was able to take a bit more control of the match.

19:05Catherine Whitaker: And she was impressive, you know, against Brutas Monero, who's had a really good run of form recently. But then I found Svitolina Badossa just compelling, really compelling because Badossa, despite not playing for so long, came out playing brilliantly. I mean, that first set, she was so good and forced Svitolina to kind of override even this new version of herself, which is trying to be more and more aggressive, she took it to a whole new level and went even more aggressive than she has been playing in the last couple of years and wrestled control of this one. And I thought Badossa was starting to fade in that third set as Fitalina went up 4-1.

19:48Catherine Whitaker: But then Badossa's spirit and will and just refusal to give in and she just wouldn't go away and she got it all the way back level again. And I thought we were heading for a deciding set tie break only for Svitolina to break and win it 7-5 right at the end. But I just thought it was a real, really compelling match with Bedossa showing a brilliant level of form and Svitolina a fantastic mid-match adjustment. And then both of them real fight and spirit and kind of showing off the absolute best of what they have and what this competition has. And just a really, really big win for Ukraine, taking them to the semifinals of this competition for the first time ever.

20:37And just a lot of really sort of inspiring quotes

20:42Catherine Whitaker: from particularly Svitolino afterwards, talking about how the invasion of Russia has set tennis back in Ukraine. you know like people have got fewer playing opportunities um because of because of that invasion and she said that everyone back home is watching there's a live stream that's free to watch and you know people people are gathering around to watch it and hopefully be inspired by it and and they feel that and it it it comes through when they play you know they are they are everyone there is playing with passion but those ukrainian players i think in particular and it's very moving actually to see them perform like that and and win like that and it sets up a fascinating semi-final because Kostiuk's got a winning record over Coccioretto and Svitolina's got a winning record over Paolini so if Italy can get it to the doubles I think they'd be the favorites but maybe on on form potentially and also on history it feels like Ukraine might have the age in the singles so it's really nicely poised.

21:55Matt Roberts: Yeah when I saw those performances and I read those quotes from the Ukrainian team that you've just laid out there Matt I kind of wanted to go back to Monday and revise my prediction or at least revise the the amount of consideration I gave to to Ukraine as as potential champions and And I mean, obviously, I went down completely the opposite road of ignoring the whole, you know, this competition is traditionally about who can be greater than the sum of their parts. And I went with the sum of the parts and I picked Team USA. say. But I kind of wish I'd, I'm wondering now if I had my time again, I'd go down the opposite road and pick Ukraine who were just playing for something so huge, which is always a boost, I think, even more so in a team competition, even more so, I think, at this time of year, when everyone's on fumes, everybody's on fumes, everyone needs something else to really give them an edge in a match.

23:06Matt Roberts: There's not much to choose between these players at the top of the game, is there? You need an edge and, I don't know, I've just got a sneaky feeling about Ukraine this week. Certainly Ukraine reaching the final and beating Italy maybe in this semi-final And obviously those head-to-heads that Matt's laid out, David, from a tennis perspective, they obviously help with that feeling. This is a massive edge that Ukraine have in that respect on Italy, especially with Paolini not in fantastic form, seemingly. Yes, she found a way to haul herself over the line, but that was not an informed Paolini that we saw against Wang Jinyu.

23:49David Law: Well, I've gone for Ukraine against the US in the final. So, you know, it's on. But actually what I love about it. Hang on, you went for the US as well. I did. You were my prediction buddy. But I've got Ukraine in the final. Let's see if that happens. But losing to the team that is potentially not greater than the Sun of its heart. Anyway, it hasn't happened yet. Now I'm gloating early. Which you shouldn't do. We've been here before, haven't we? Yes. I've laid out the rules of predictions versus gloating. And we're not there yet. First comes avoiding humiliation. Second comes answering your doubters.

24:26And then third is gloating.

24:30David Law: Without even being provoked. But what I do like is the fact that you've got those singles. You've got that premium on those singles performances for Ukraine because they're going to be the underdogs in the doubles. You know, you've got to get it done in two most likely. and maybe not maybe maybe they will be able to put it out in the doubles it's quite funny ukraine

24:56Catherine Whitaker: like i would i would love to see them in the doubles because you know they've got the kitchen not twins but they've got but they don't play together i mean i know they i know they i know they have played together in the past but they're not they're not typical doubles partners and do you want svitolina on court you know or kostya you know it's going to be or do you put the two

25:16David Law: singles players together in the last minute and say you go and do it it's it's pretty mouth-watering as a prospect either way I love that about the team selection possibilities um one of the

25:29Matt Roberts: Kitchenoch sisters is a lot better than the other certainly in terms of results up to this point right there's the one that plays with Yelena Ostopenko a lot Lyudmila yeah I think sort of historically they're they've had quite similar careers but yes i think um i think it's ludmilla who's won a couple of slams i want to say but you're right there's there's a reason why they're not playing together regularly i think they've won on the tour i looked it up i think they've won four tour level titles together but not that recently you know it's been they've had different partners recently so yeah it'd be really interesting and I suppose if it goes to the doubles that means that one of Kostya Consvitolina has lost you know so then they've got to come back and play doubles which you know can be good a point to prove and all that kind of thing we kind of saw that with Pugula today but equally it requires a sort of pick-me-up and maybe then you partner one of the singles players with a doubles like that to me is the most fascinating element of the Billie Jean King Cup and the Davis Cup, what they do with the doubles and how they work out those combinations.

26:46And I think this would be a tie that would really play into that because we know what the Italian team's going to be, but Ukraine feel like they've got questions that they would need to answer and it'd be fascinating to see.

27:04Matt Roberts: does paulini have a svitolina problem well she has had this year you know she lost her in australia she lost her at ronan garros the ronan garros match was so good such a high level i believe there was a amelie maresmo press conference during the middle of it which was somewhat frustrating for us yeah what a huge surprise but you look at that and it was it was kind of like well these two players are playing really well against each other it's not like paulini's struggling to bring her best against vitolina but vitolina has powered through both deciding sets in particular in their matches much more one-sided than you would have expected and it seems that once vitolina kind of cracks it in that match she can kind of take over and she has done particularly by being ultra aggressive in the way that she was to help turn the match around against Bedossa as well.

28:02So I think going into it, I do make Svitolina the slight favourite in that one, considering the matches they've had and considering... Do you think Paolini looked a bit tired, you know, or just out of form?

28:22David Law: I mean, it's an interesting one, isn't it? I didn't, her body language is so up all the time that I never really think of it like that in the way that you can see on other players. But I think maybe the performance itself, she's trying her absolute damnedest out there. But it is, like Catherine said, it's on fumes stuff. She's getting the last dregs out. I guess the other, well, the other question that goes to me

28:51Matt Roberts: about this upcoming semi-final is whether Cotchioreto will keep her place, given that head-to-head against Kostiuk. I think three and one, Kostiuk leads the head-to-head. Now, she's never played Bronzetti, so it's not like... I mean, she could have a Bronzetti problem as well, but we just don't... Sorry, Bronzetti could have a Kostiuk problem as well, but we just don't know it yet. But is an unknown better than a bad known? I mean, it would be brutal to drop Cotciareto after that incredible comeback in the opening tie. But these are the sort of hard-headed decisions that the captains are there to make, David.

29:32I do think Kostiuk is a pretty heavy favourite against either one. But I would be going Cotciareto, I think, given that she's the player who beat Jessica Begula, who hits that sort of heavy top player ball, and she had answers to that. And so I think her top level is, if she has a good day, Cotteretto, I think she could be a match for her. I was amazed, really, that Kostiuk managed to win that first set against Balthus Meniero. She went and break down, and I thought in the first three games, oh, Kostiuk's hitting the living daylights out of the ball, and yet she finds herself behind. I thought she was going to get beaten in that match the way it started.

30:17But she's so gritty. And, you know, her determination. You wouldn't thought she was tired. I mean, she doesn't look remotely tired. And actually, I think that might be another factor. I think Svitolina hasn't had that many wins of late. Maybe there's a bit more fuel in the tank, really, on players that have... I know Kozja had a run in the summer. But for the most part, it was a quiet time from the clay onwards. So, I don't know. And it means so much to them. I think that they have got more energy in the tank. And, yeah, I think Ukraine are going to win.

30:56Matt Roberts: Matt, Italy were your picks for the title. Do you feel any differently now, having seen what you've seen? Or some of what you've seen, you know, golf permitting? I do feel a bit differently actually I do think Ukraine can get it done in the singles but I'm not going to underestimate Jasmine Paolini and I'm going to stick with it and think that she pulls it out oh you're going to have it both ways I see what you've done there I feel differently but I'm sticking with my prediction that's exactly it a classic of the genre

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34:10Moving on to the bottom half of the draw, we have a semifinal between the USA and Great Britain.

34:17Matt Roberts: Let's start with the USA's 2-1 win over Kazakhstan. The only of the quarterfinals to go to the doubles. That because we had Emma Navarro saving two match points to beat Yulia Putin-Saver, winning 7-6 in the deciding set. We had Elena Rabakina crushing Jessica Bagula 6-4, 6-1. That took it to the doubles where we had Jessica Bagula and Taylor Townsend saving a set point in the second to beat Rabakina and Putin's saver in straight sets. Now, a lot of this happened in the wee hours of the morning, but we do have a wee hours of the morning correspondent in David Law. Emi Navarro's incredible win over Yulia Putin's saver.

35:07David, talk us through it. Yeah, I woke up at about 5am this morning and just saw the latter stages of this match and it was so dramatic. I mean, Putin Seva was just playing such a wonderful blend of tennis that was a nightmare to face. You know, just all sorts of angles and spins. I mean, she's a player of variety most of the time, but she took it to another level in this match. And short, long, sort of high, low, every angle you could imagine was coming at Navarro. and again a little bit like the players from China she should have won huge credit to Navarro for finding a way out of it and to win the second of the match points was a long rally that Putin's over had and she just kind of ran out of gas in that rally and I think you've got to give huge credit to Navarro for just sticking in there and winning that because, you know, the way the second rubber went, I mean, you'd have thought that maybe Pagoula might come out with her teammate having won and just be flying in that next one.

36:24She didn't get a chance. I mean, the performance that Rebecca had put up. But, I mean, you know, Navarro has basically got that team a win by being so gritty. I mean, obviously, you needed the doubles team to come through, of which Pagoula was part and alongside Townsend. But yeah, Navarro has come in late notice, replaced in Madison Keys, and she is delivered when, frankly, she was second best for most of it.

36:51Matt Roberts: Is it a worry for the USA, Matt, that Pagula was so roundly beaten in the singles? Obviously, they'll likely, if they're going to go all the way and win this thing, they'll likely be relying on Jessica Pagula's points in the singles as well as the doubles. Was it a worry, the nature of that defeat to Rabakina, or was that just all about Rabakina and she can kind of do that to anybody on her day? I do think Pagula, to me, looked a little slow to get going and she arrived in Shenzhen, I think, not with loads of time to prepare for this. I think the turnaround from post-US Open to this has been quite quick, you know, for someone who went all the way to the semifinals in New York and then had a bit of time at home and then on to China.

37:46I think that's been a lot, and I think it's not a surprise if she's not at her best. I do think the US is built so that I think they can win it without Pagula winning a singles match. I think if Navarro can keep coming through, I think maybe that might be more of a concern, to be honest. like Navarro's form. Like I think they're obviously going to need a singles win, obviously. But I think if Pagula's not at her best, the US strength should be that their number two is so much stronger. But I think Navarro maybe isn't quite at her best at the moment. And if she were to come up against, for example, Akostiuk in a potential final that David predicted days ago, then that might be a worry for the US.

38:37because, you know, obviously Svitolina would be very strong there as well. So, but to go back to this match specifically today, I thought Robackino was pretty much unplayable. Like, in those conditions, indoors, she should be unplayable. With her serve, with her second serve as well, you see a lot of players have their second serve attacked, and Robackino was attacking Pagoulas. The way Robackino was hitting that second serve today, you can't even attack that ball. As soon as she gets the first strike in, it's over. Like, she was just hitting the ball so cleanly, so powerfully. I think playing like that against someone who can't really disrupt her all that much, doesn't have loads of different spins and all that kind of thing, I think Rebecca Caner just was unplayable today.

39:28But I would have a little bit of concern about their form, perhaps. Yes, in the singles. They got it done today in the doubles. But I don't think they're right where they want to be, the US, if that makes sense.

39:47Matt Roberts: Yeah, and they've obviously had a bit of a rocky week in terms of their time in Shenzhen leading into this quarterfinal. This from reporting in The Athletic by Charlie Eccleshire and James Hansen. And a lot of you will have seen this online where it's kind of blown up a little bit, particularly in China. Taylor Townsend having to or choosing to apologise after posting a series of videos on Instagram in which she mocked a buffet in China. At a dinner with her teammates, Townsend posted a video of a buffet focusing on a bowl of sea cucumbers, which is a delicacy in China. And she said, this is crazy.

40:30Matt Roberts: This angle is effing nuts. This is crazy. I've never seen one of these up close, especially not to eat. Craziest thing I've ever seen. And people are eating this. I'm going to have to talk to HR because what the hell? Turtle and bullfrog is wild. Again, two dishes that are delicacies in China. she then posted another video on her story saying I'm honestly just so shocked at what I saw in the dinner buffet as I go back and I look these people are literally killing frogs bullfrogs aren't those poisonous aren't those the ones that give you warts and boils and stuff and turtles and the fact that it's all stewed up with chilies peppers and onions and then you got the sea cucumbers just staring there with the noodles the the only thing that we eat all in all I'd give this like a solid two out of ten so far because this is crazy um she was heavily criticized on well on all social media but particularly on chinese social media she was i think the number one trending topic on on webo with chinese equivalent kind of of twitter over there accused of of cultural insensitivity which i i think everybody can can agree is is pretty glaring there and she did quite quickly post a video with the following words she said I understand that I'm so privileged as a professional athlete to be able to travel around the world and experience cultural differences there's no excuse there's no words I will be better so she's obviously owning it completely no specifics in the in the apology I think is the only sort of glaring omission there but she has got onto it very quickly but this caught fire very quickly in China and actually there was a bit of a delay in announcing the US names on the team sheet for the doubles and I was starting to wonder if Taylor Townsend maybe wouldn't even play and she did in the end and look they got the win but there was some hostility towards her from the Chinese fans I saw a picture of somebody holding up a sign about her.

42:49Matt Roberts: It's not been an ideal week for Team USA, put it that way, Matt. No, absolutely not. Yeah, look, people probably don't need me to explain why what she said was wrong and why she needed to apologise using, I think, particularly the phrase, these people was extremely, well, condescending at best and, you know, describing people from China as though they're some kind of savages or something for eating what they eat was really quite nasty to hear. And actually, as James pointed out in that piece on The Athletic, There has been a number of incidents of WTA players making, again, culturally insensitive at best comments about China over the last couple of years.

43:51There's been incidents with Paola Badosa. There's been an incident with Magda Lynette as well. And now this one from Taylor Townsend. I think her apology yeah she didn't even use the words China or Chinese people in her apology she seemed to be very much sort of centering her apology on the embarrassment that she'd brought on the US rather than really apologising to the Chinese people and her comments very much played into a to a stereotype that we that we know exists um and you know she was viewing viewing chinese cultural delicacies through the lens that her views on food are more acceptable than than those of of of chinese people so it was a it was a deeply deeply regrettable video and series of videos that she posted um i think particularly it it sort of feels sort of heightened because it's taylor townsend and we've just had taylor townsend at the us open uh in you know be be the sort of victim of similar sorts of comments um in terms of their insensitivity and sort of racial undertones um i really don't want to do the thing that i've seen a lot of people and commentators doing sort of this sort of somehow justifying what oster penko did and said like absolutely not let's let's not do that for a second these are these are separate incidents um yes i think good that taylor townsend deleted those videos and did a video apology rather than just doing a sort of note zap apology but I do think that there was that was still pretty short um of what would have been a you know a sort of better apology um and yeah just a just a really really horrible

46:06Matt Roberts: episode to be quite honest yeah and as much as damage damage limitation has been done and she it to the court today and they got the win like I don't think this is just going to disappear for Taylor Townsend and Team USA I think it's going to be carried for for the rest of the week and probably for the rest of Taylor Townsend's career and future trips to to China to be honest their semi-final on Saturday will be against Team GB that because GB beat Japan handily doing it in the singles. Sone Cartel beating Ineshi Bahara 6-3, 7-6 and Katie Bolter beating Muka Uchijima 6-2, 6-1. One of the best recent victories and performances I've seen from Katie Bolter.

46:56Matt Roberts: Quite frankly, these were both convincing wins and kind of the least remarkable, certainly the least remarkable tie of the tournament so far by some distance, probably, David. Yeah, at least engrossing. The one-sided nature of those scorelines tells you that. But that's credit to Cartel and Bolter for just getting the job done. I think that they are heavy underdogs against the United States. I think that they're down as second seeds because their ranking is number two based on, I was reading up, four years worth of results. But when I look at them listed in the list of teams and the team names there, I mean, to me, they're sort of sixth or seventh in line, really, for this title.

47:44But look, they beat Japan, which I do think in the absence of Naomi Osaka was the weakest team there. And you can only beat the team in front of you and you can do it in straight sets all the way. They did that. I just think I mean, Bolter against Pagula is an interesting one because Pagula really was short today but she was short against Elena Rabacchina and although Bolter is maybe a similar kind of style of player she's just nowhere near as good as Elena Rabacchina so I think at best that will be close but I would have thought that Pagula is a pretty heavy favourite and certainly you would see Navarro as a favourite against Cartel.

48:26But look, the beauty of these matches, these events specifically, these team events, is players can play above their normal level. Katie Bolter is a different player in a team environment to the player that we see on the tour week in, week out. She does elevate and we're seeing some of that with Cartel as well. So it's not a given, but they're certainly underdogs. By the way, I have a stat which I hope will make up for my... Is this your new thing? ...performance on this podcast. Just low-key unannounced dropping in big stats. It's Matt's stat, but on the pod. Well, I heard Pagula say that it had been some time since she'd played doubles with Taylor Townsend.

49:15So I wondered when that might be. He is picked up. at tour level. It was the 2011 US Open. Was Jessica Pegula a player then? What? Isn't that wild? They reached the third round and lost to the eventual finalists Vanya King and Yaroslava Shvedova, who, of course, is there for Kazakhstan now on the bench. They beat Yelena Yankovic in the second round, which definitely dates it. Yeah.

49:53David Law: It's 14 years. Absolutely wild.

49:56Matt Roberts: I think Jessica Begula only came to my attention properly when she won Washington in 2019. I mean, I'd heard of her before that, but in terms of anybody... Well, I think that's sort of what makes her career really impressive, the way that she was for so long. Not who we've known her as since that sort of COVID time where she's been an established top 10 player. But she turned herself into that. But wouldn't she have been a child in 2011? Yeah, they were both juniors, I believe, and they both had wild cards. So they wouldn't have been in the draw if you were running tennis.

50:45that I mean okay that is a good stat that is that's that's a mic drop moment wow um and look

50:54Matt Roberts: the the the fact remains this is not new in terms of a discussion point for GB and throwing ahead to their semi-final they're gonna need to do it in the singles aren't they barring a miracle really they are going to need to win both singles matches which is quite hard to see right yeah I mean Anki Othovang's talking a big game about them being able to win this title and I suppose you've got to in an eight-team draw you've you've got to talk a big game haven't you but when you actually look at that draw and look at what feels possible even within this competition where players can elevate, it does feel like a miracle is needed, I think.

51:42Matt Roberts: Is that too strong? David's smirking at me. I mean, listen, I wouldn't say miracle, but I definitely think that it's a long shot. There's no question. I mean, it's unlikely. But I also think weird stuff can happen in this type of event. I also wonder at what point maybe Hayley Baptiste gets a match and comes in and plays. She was actually put down as the doubles partner for this right until the last second when Taylor Townsend was drafted in. To go along with what you were saying earlier, Catherine. I'd be very surprised if GB won this. You go in there. They're good players. they've both had wins.

52:35If Pegula and Navarro are a bit knackered at the moment, I think Cartel and Bolter aren't. They are pumped. They are ready to go and just to give this everything. So, you know, I think 70-30.

52:49Matt Roberts: David, a big believer in the power of pumped? Well, I am. I think in these events you can do amazing things, really, if you happen to be upbeat and feeling good. David got the call up what you could do with your power of pump well on the sidelines name on the trophy I could be Anne's right hand man and just sort of you know imagine she seems pretty good at getting people pumped so you know yeah in her own way I think she's a good motivator sorry Matt what were you going to say I was going to say I'm not sure off the top of my head what the head to head is overall but I do know that Bolter has beaten Pagula in a team event.

53:33She played brilliantly, didn't she? To beat her at the United Cup a couple of years ago. And I do think Bolter...

53:41Matt Roberts: That was absolutely Pete Bolter, though. It absolutely was. But I think if it's not Pete Pagula, it maybe gives her a bit of a shot. I also think she's more comfortable in indoor conditions. You know, Bolter has probably played her best tennis, I'd say maybe on grass, But in indoor, you know, Brits are quite comfortable playing indoors normally. And Bolta with those, you know, with her game style, she is. I don't think Pagula's played all that much indoors. You know, not much of the WTA tour that Pagula would traditionally play is indoors. And, you know, I think there might be something in that in terms of conditions for Bolta.

54:21And I do think Navarro is vulnerable. You know, I don't think she's playing anywhere near her best tennis, anywhere near really what her ranking is, I would say. I still think she was playing a lot better last season. Just not quite sure Cartel will quite have the firepower to take advantage of that. So I do, you know, they're strong favourites, the US, but I'm just trying to find little rays of hope for Britain. for Britain that I imagine Anki Othavong is latching onto and saying, look, Navarro's not been at her best, Pagula's vulnerable, she can get them fired up. And I think they've got more chance in the Billie Jean King Cup than they would have on tour, I suppose, of trying to eke out these wins.

55:12Matt Roberts: And look, it's back-to-back Billie Jean King Cup semi-finals for GB, isn't it? Like they are, this is already a great performance in this competition for them. I don't want to write them off when they're... I feel like I've already written them off, but there we go. OK, so everybody's got USA coming through to the final. Matt, you've got Italy meeting them there. David and I have Ukraine taking on the USA in the final. Is that where we are? That's where we are. OK, well, let's meet again on Saturday and do a stock take of where we are and exactly what the power of pumped is. Matt you can slather on some aloe vera in the meantime just on those two triangles at the top of your head oh trust me I've been doing it just on a very specific area even aloe vera-ing I'm also being unprofessional on Saturday because I'm hoping the tennis wraps up quickly so I can get off to Fulham in the evening yeah he's had no takes on the first bit of the podcast today and I have no takes on the last bit of the podcast on Saturday because he'll have jogged off to Fulham I've already said to Vicky, no shout outs on Saturday.

56:24It's not unprofessional, it's just sensible. Right. OK, we've got to make them extra good today then. No pressure. First of all, of course, let's say hello to our mascots, Phoebe, Maisie and Roger. Hello to you. Hello to our top folks and executive producers, Greg, Chris and Jeff. Matt seeing as you're good enough to have stayed let's have some shout outs well and let's first of all shout out Nick Imerson who we mentioned in the shout out section last time the real shout out MVP likely to come in for us with some tennis gillians and he of course has from the corner of the court in Shenzhen where we've been seeing him on the screen he's come up if you're wondering who Nick Imerson is if you've been watching the Billie Jean King Cup this week you've probably seen him definitely star of the show he's getting as much air time as Billie Jean King

57:27and he's come up with some very niche Gillians for us Gillian Brooke wife of Phil Brooke still successful on the ITF Masters Circuit and competing on the ITF World Championships in fact she played with John Lloyd this year. Just sensational. Phil Brook being the former Wimbledon CEO. Yeah. So, big time. Shout out Nick. Shout out Nick, always. Now on to today's shout outs which actually are much easier tennis names. We won't have trouble with these. But still, still send us an email Nick, we like hearing from you. we've got Andy Brown from London hello Andy it's almost too easy Andy isn't it like Andy Lapthorne the British quad wheelchair player Matt played golf with Andy Lapthorne he was a no-show oh no he wasn't he was

58:36gosh his name was on the team sheet and everything didn't want to get sunburned clearly wow okay well Andy Lapthorne that Matt didn't well none of us played golf with Andy Lapthorne this week okay let's go Andy Murray who also no show at the golf well he won it last year hmm won and out he didn't want to lose his title to Matt with a sunburned head so he just said I'll leave it hopefully this is really going to boost our YouTube figures people will be people will be going to YouTube to see my son burn.

59:17What do we know about Andy Brown? Well, Catherine, a long-suffering Reading FC fan. His words. Oh, Andy. Oh, it's not... Oh, God, Andy. It's not going that well this season, is it yet? No. I said yet. No, well, no. Sort of. yeah it's alright Catherine I'm afraid I don't have any don't have any Andy would be able to see through any optimism that I tried to bring to the party here Andy knows Andy knows what's up and I'm sorry Andy but you know you've got solidarity here thanks for being a friend we've also got Katie Brody double tennis name hello Katie yes the Brodie's is a different spelling but okay yes no a no it's b-r-o-d-i-e

1:00:20Matt Roberts: i-e very good

1:00:22Catherine Whitaker: and Katie is from Edinburgh

1:00:25Matt Roberts: I was going to say I think that's a Scottish name isn't it Brodie spelt that way so that that all checks out and Katie like Katie Swan

1:00:35David Law: yes Like Katie Bolter. And I should also add that when I was putting the Nick Imerson inspired Jillians into our shout out form, which I've now got for If Ever We Struggle, there was actually a Kate segment in there as well. So, you know, it's...

1:00:57Matt Roberts: Because we always struggle with Kate's, don't we? In Katie's, we're... Yeah, we've got Swan, we've got Bolter, we've got Volleynets. Kate's are a bit of a problem. um nick imerson had come come up with i mean i'm really struggling with who these people are but kate gom pair and kate brasher but david this is a katie okay we've got katies coming out of our ears there's also katie with a c kate and mcnally i just said kate mcnally oh did you well it's in the form i'm just reading out the form because i'm really proud of it i'll keep it open in case we need it for the third one little nice detail from our Katie as I try desperately to get us back on track here is that she once dragged her family up a hill to visit the Alice Marble Tennis Courts in San Francisco oh wow isn't that great San Francisco's current scene of many Labour Cup photo opportunities.

1:02:03How do we feel about the low-hanging fruit of Carlos Alcaraz being taken to Alcatraz? Is that what they're doing? Inevitable. Yeah. Head to our YouTube to see the face that David just made. Oh, don't worry, everyone's on YouTube.

1:02:26You're not into that, David? You wouldn't have been doing that in your PR days. Everybody else went on a day out on a tram and they sent Alcaraz to a prison. I mean, it all adds up now that he didn't appear to be in the official photo. So maybe that's why. He was at a prison. I mean, it is probably what I would have done 20 years ago. It's a single use.

1:02:56I've been to Alcaraz. I've done that boat ride. that he did. Yeah, it's a good day out. Now I know what it's like to be on the other end of my PR ideas.

1:03:10Anyway, Katie, we've derailed you. Have you seen that Alcaraz's team members have also had to do stuff to their hair? So his physio is now blonde and Alvaro has shaved his head. Alcaraz isn't blonde. Alcaraz is now like a weird shade of grey. He's letting it grow out, isn't he? And it's, yeah, I don't know. There are some strange days ahead for Al Graz's hair, I foresee. It's only life I can't, doesn't matter. At least he's not sunburned. Thank you, Katie. And finally, we have Judy Tran from Sydney, Australia. you. Hello Judy. Judy's a returning shout out isn't she? Andy and Judy all in one all in one batch.

1:04:04Hello Judy. Andy, Judy and Katie we've got British tennis royalty in our shout outs today. And this is a shout out is a gift from Judy's husband Jeff. Oh wonderful. That is lovely. Good work Jeff. like our executive producer Jeff and Judy like Judy Dalton and of course Judy Murray very good Judy, Andy, Katie and Jeff thank you ever so much for your support of

1:04:38Matt Roberts: the Tennis Podcast if you want to follow the Billie Jean King Cup then head to their website and their socials it's available on Tennis Channel in the UK which you can watch via Prime Video, Tennis Channel in the US as well if you're wondering where you can watch wherever you are in the world then there is a list of broadcasters on the Billie Jean King Cup website and you can also watch the GBUSA semifinal on the BBC here in the UK we'll be back with our next podcast on Saturday to talk about those semifinals look ahead to the final and then we'll be back on Sunday at 8pm live on YouTube to talk about the final and reflect on the week and look ahead to next week generally do all the podcast things.

1:05:23Matt Roberts: And Matt, I don't think you've made any plans for post-podcast on Sunday. So we'll get your full attention, will we? Absolutely. I'll just be wearing a hat.

1:05:37Worth tuning in for. Folks, we'll speak to you Saturday. We'll see you Sunday. Thanks for listening.

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