BJK Cup - Italy's Dynasty

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1:16Matt Roberts: Hello and welcome to the Tennis Podcast. On this fine Sunday evening, we are here to talk about the Billie Jean King Cup Finals Final and the Billie Jean King Cup in general. We are live on YouTube right now, which if you're with us live on YouTube right now, you already know. And if you're not, is irrelevant information to you. But there you go. I've delivered it anyway. Matt is here, still buoyant, from a Derby Day victory late last night. How are you doing, Matt? Very well. Yeah, thank you for mentioning that so that I don't have to just awkwardly shoehorn it into conversation as I've been trying to do all day, really.

2:00How long would it have taken if I hadn't led you there? What was your plan? Oh, seconds. I think in my opening introduction, for sure. Yeah, it's just great.

2:15David is here, doesn't need a Derby Day victory to be high on life. That's sort of his natural state.

2:22David Law: Yeah, although I could do with a Seahawks win. So I'm wearing the outfit today. I can see that. Yep. Yep. So we'll see how that goes in a couple of hours' time. But no, otherwise I'm really, really well, thanks, because, yeah, I'm quite high on Billie Jean King Cup. And tennis in general, actually, it's been a fun day of tennis to watch. And, you know, just, I mean, but tennis is sort of around the clock at the moment, isn't it, because of all the time zones. But no, I really enjoyed the Billie Jean King Cup. So very excited to talk about it.

2:54Matt Roberts: Yeah, I do struggle with morning tennis. I know it suits you down to the ground, David. But I just... Such an interesting shift in our dynamic. Such a pain in the arse. Like, why is tennis on when I either want to be asleep or need to be walking the dog? Or on the golf course, apparently. Or on the... Apparently the only thing I'll get up early for, particularly on a Sunday, is golf. This is the new me. I golfed. I was allowed out on the course for the first time. I basically just want to talk about golf, but we can't just monologue. Matt can't just monologue about Fulham being Brentford and I can't monologue about golf.

3:37We are here to talk about the Billie Jean King Cup. Folks, I know that other stuff is happening in the world of tennis.

3:44Matt Roberts: We are not oblivious to that. We watched Igor Shuntek's extraordinary victory over a Katerina Alexandre earlier today to win the title in Seoul. We are very aware that the Labour Cup is happening, although there is just no amount of pumpness in the world that could make me watch Kasper Rude against Rylia Pelka in an exhibition. But good luck to everybody that's enjoying it. We will be covering all of those things in our next podcast, which is on Tuesday. Tennis is getting weird with its schedules again, which means we have to get weird with our schedules again. So our next kind of totally normal show will be on Tuesday.

4:27Matt Roberts: So you don't have long to wait for our takes about Riley Opelka and Kasperud. I hope you've got some because I haven't got any. Anyway, I do have takes about the Billie Jean King Cup final. So let's talk about that. Let's get out ahead of this, shall we? And call it what it is, the Elisabetta Cotcioreto Apology Tour. which Italian will we underestimate next is the big question for today's podcast. I'm going with Lucia Bronzetti. Yeah, she seems a solid, solid candidate, doesn't she? In fact, I've already done that, didn't I?

5:03David Law: I did that in the last Billie Jean King Cup. I think I underestimated her. Stop underestimating Italians. I won't underestimate Yannick Sinner, I promise. we previewed this final yesterday and I don't think any of us underestimated Italy in general

5:23Matt Roberts: but boy did we underestimate Elisabetta Cotiareto we talked about paths to victory and we thought that the USA had two paths to victory and that was either getting it done 2-0 in the singles or getting it done 2-1 with with the deployment of their doubles team but we said Italy almost certainly only had one path to victory and totally wrote off Elisabetta Cotciareto. And there just simply aren't enough apologies in the world for that after having seen what she did today to beat Emma Navarro 6-4, 6-4, to put Italy in pole position to hand the bat on over to the incredible Jasmine Paolini, who was incredible, to beat Jessica Bagula 6-4, 6-2 and once again win the Billie Jean King Cup for Italy incredible scenes, they're an incredible vibe it was joyous David I remain gutted it didn't go to the doubles but I'm prepared to eat all the humble pie that is required of me today

6:35David Law: Yeah me too, I'll join you Catherine and I'm sure we can find some ice cream to go with it, custard, whatever you like. But look, I'll give a general overview. These two players and that team, I don't know who could have beaten them today. The level they found, the level in excess of even their normal level, and I include Paolini in that. I don't think I've ever seen Paolini play this well. This was unreal level that she found. I mean, straight sets over Navarro and Pagula. I mean, that in a final. It's Iga Shontek stuff, that. And, I mean, first of all, you've got Cotieretto, who you're right.

7:18David Law: I mean, she's not shown anything this week that suggested that this was coming. I mean, what is it? She hadn't won a match to get to this point. They'd been doing it in spite. She won the first one, yeah, that's right, against China. But was on the back foot in that. Look, I've underestimated it again, even in hindsight. But I mean, it's just, I just couldn't really see it coming. And then you think, well, hold on, this is the player that beat Pagula at Wimbledon, like handily, after Pagula had just won a tournament. So I think I alluded to that. I'm just going to give myself a little pass here.

7:56David Law: I think I alluded to that very briefly in about a four-second period in the preview show, that that should just give us pause to thought that she is capable of something that is different to what we've been witnessing, even for that win against China. But this was a return to that Wimbledon form. And it was it was it was very clear that she'd gone out knowing I've just got to take it to Navarro. I think Tatiana Garbin had probably been shouting in her face throughout in the locker room about what sort of intensity is required. I think she came out of that locker room ready to just fight somebody, frankly.

8:42David Law: And I was very interested to watch Navarro's body language with Davenport just before it started. I saw them, I thought, you know, there's no shortage of them getting hyped up either here. These players are all ready to go. And I thought at that point, oh, I think Navarro will probably put in the best performance she's put in so far. Because she looks right up for it. She didn't really have a chance. I mean, she was hanging on throughout the whole thing. And then, you know, I'm going to let Matt talk about the match point in that particular match. One of the best match points I've seen all year from both players.

9:18David Law: There's Navarro hanging on, trying to hit her own lines and doing it, and yet still losing the point to this absolutely impossible-to-stop player. And that's what Paolini was like all the way through the match against Pegula. There was just the one blip right at the end, but it was more or less the perfect performance. I think I might be at sort of I'm-never-going-to-underestimate-them-again territory now. even despite all that's gone before.

9:52Matt Roberts: Go on then Matt, talk us through that match point. Well it was one of those where as soon as it happened I went on WhatsApp and I could see that David was typing as well and I was like, I know we're typing about the same thing here. And I could see that you were both typing I was like I'll just sit back and let this happen. And it was just remarkable from Cotteretto the way that it just perfectly encapsulated her approach to that match, which, as David has outlined, is try to just rush Navarro, take her time away, be the aggressor. And she just took it to like an extreme in that she ran into a final backhand.

10:31You know, like she ended up taking this backhand. David described it in that WhatsApp as a kind of like sabre mid-rally. Like it wasn't there to hit on the half volley. and yet she just ran into it, took it comically early.

10:44David Law: I'm coming in, I don't care what happens, I'm coming. And because she committed to it so well and she struck it so cleanly, it was just a winner down the line, just a lovely, lovely way to end the match. And yeah, look, I think coming into the week,

11:03Catherine Whitaker: because we'd seen Cochoretto play that well against Pagula at Wimbledon, I had pretty high hopes for her. I thought she'd be a good number two for Italy. Honestly, those hopes had really quashed through the week because she hadn't been that player at all. I know she eked out that win in the very first match against Ioannou Uri. Then I thought she was flat the entire match against Kostiuk. Just couldn't get anything going. If she doesn't have vibes, Cocciareto, she's very diminished as a tennis player. You know, that's a big part of what she brings to the court. So I just wasn't expecting too much from her today.

11:46Catherine Whitaker: But she said afterwards that she knew she needed to play her best match. And, you know, we've talked about her aggressive approach. The only thing she had was that pumpness. And she was constantly doing the... I don't know who invented the pointing to the head. I always associate it most with Stan Wawrinka. I'm sure other people will claim to it. but she was constantly doing that, pointing to her head.

12:09Matt Roberts: Harriet Dart and Katie Bolter had a fight about which of them had proprietary rights to it once, didn't they? Like, neither of you invented this. Get over it. Well, I'm prepared to call it the cotieretto because it was a big part of her sort of game today

12:30Catherine Whitaker: and what she brought to the court. And it was basically just her having this really, really positive attitude through the whole thing. And I think I maybe also got a bit swept up in Navarro's wins this week. I think she had been a slightly strange concoction of vulnerability and invincibility. She wasn't playing all that well. You felt like Cartel might be able to beat her. And yet she was winning these matches, which gave you confidence. She's coming through those. But I think she was a little bit there for the taking.

13:04Matt Roberts: But then Paolini had been a bit like that as well. Obviously not today, but I had the same, a similar feeling about Paolini.

13:12Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, I just think Paolini has such a history of, well, I say such a history, at least like a two or three year history of stepping up in this competition. If we do trace back the, you know, the ascension of Jasmine Paolini, I think we probably look at that title that she won in 2024 at the start. I think it was in Dubai, was it? You know, the biggest title of her career. But actually, I think it potentially started at the Billie Jean King Cup just before that in the back end of 2023. She seemed very transformed as a player. She grows. She raises her level in the biggest matches when it counts in this competition.

13:56Catherine Whitaker: and I had a small doubt in terms of like, is she just physically going to be ready to do it? It's been a long season, she's played a lot this week already, but she had it in the tank and the four-all game in the first set against Pagula was the massive, massive turning point here because I actually thought Pagula was maybe the better player through those first eight games. But then they had this game on Paolini's serve at full in the first set where Pagula had numerous chances to break back. But Paolini held in just the most incredible fashion, but not her most remarkable service hold of the week.

14:36Catherine Whitaker: It wasn't quite 17 minutes as it was the other day. I think this was only 12 minutes. But still, like remarkable resilience, coming up with big shots when break point down. And as she'd done all week, she won the game after the big game. I've been so impressed with the way Paolini's done that. You know, like there's been this emotional high and the other players maybe just come down a little bit and Paolini's kept it up. And then she broke for the set. And then after that, as David described, she was just awesome in this one. Absolutely awesome. How incredible to have like a matchup which perfectly demonstrates the Paolini improvement over these last couple of years.

15:21Catherine Whitaker: She hadn't played Pagoula in two years. Well, she's a different player now, two years on. She hadn't won a set against her before in 10 attempts, and now she beats her in straight sets. So the way she's able to hurt these top players now, that's why I thought, I can't think of a really top player that she hasn't to some extent troubled over the last couple of years. So why couldn't she also hurt Pagoula? And she proved that today, just brilliant and just in awe of her. I wanted the doubles too, but I also wanted the Paolini vibes to continue. I sort of didn't want that match to turn in the moment because that would have meant the Paolini vibes going.

16:04Catherine Whitaker: It was great.

16:06Matt Roberts: Were the US slightly flat today or did they just look flat next to what Italy were bringing? I mean, I think David would have looked unpumped next to what Italy were bringing. But were the US slightly flat today? And if so, should we tread carefully here because I really don't want to take anything away from Italy at all. But should we perhaps raise the issue of the schedule, which is that the US played back-to-back days, whereas Italy had a day off in between their semi-final and final. I think they had that last year as well, Italy. I went back to Czech my sense

16:50David Law: really when I think about the tournament as a whole is that relatively speaking this has been their level throughout the competition there was a definitely Italy raised their level today so much because if you think about it they've lived a bit of a charmed life through this thing I don't think that they could have had any complaints at all if they'd have ended up in the doubles against China, first of all. I think China were really quite unfortunate not to win one of those singles. They were a set away from losing against Ukraine. They're getting dominated in the singles, and massive credit to Paolini for finding her level in the nick of time.

17:38And then you've obviously got the genius of Irani in the doubles.

17:42David Law: but when I think of the route through that the US had I don't think we ever saw the best of Navarro and I don't really think we ever saw the best of Pagula I think that they did their best they've given everything I don't doubt their efforts for a minute but they weren't playing an inspired level and I don't think you can necessarily do much about that and I think that yes maybe the schedule Pam mentioned this in our chat with her on WhatsApp today that she felt that it's a bit of a... It is a disadvantage. If you want to have that little bit of extra energy for finals day, you could do without that playing back-to-back compared to your opponents.

18:26David Law: But that does go with what we've seen all tournament long, I think, that they have not been able to find another gear. Whether you can do anything like that about that as a captain, whether Garbine actually managed to create something. I kind of wonder whether they might have been able to. You know, you look at the vibes of them afterwards. I mean, the social media stuff we've seen, I don't see that much of this stuff normally because I'm not on it that much, but you couldn't escape it. Everywhere you look, there's a song they're singing or there's a champagne they're drinking or there's a dance they're doing on the courts with the trophy after, and I'm lapping it all up.

19:05David Law: And you just think, God, this team is just feeding off one another. And I don't just, I'd be surprised if that's happening in quite the same way with the US, and particularly the two singles players that you're talking about. One of their great assets is that they are unflappable and that they're able to just give you the same demeanor, regardless of what's happening. but also you were getting the same level of tennis and there was no injection there really.

19:37Matt Roberts: Yeah, never too high and never too low has its pluses and minuses, doesn't it, at different times. I share your feeling, David, that I don't think the schedule was the decisive factor today but I am uncomfortable with that inequality in the schedule just as a matter of principle. If this were a Grand Slam and the finalist, one finalist, would have 24 hours of rest, maybe less, and the other would have twice as much, it's just not fair. We used to have that in the Australian Open, didn't we,

20:17David Law: in the men's, I think. We don't have that anymore, but we used to. Yeah, we used to have a...

20:23Matt Roberts: But it's two versus three, isn't it? Rather than none versus one. which, yeah, I mean, it's still inequality, but it feels less. I mean, and I think actually the stats show that the, historically, the schedule favours the person that sort of stays in the same rhythm rather than the one that has the extra day off. But I think having no days off versus having a day off is quite significant. And I think in an ideal world, I know scheduling, I know there's so much that goes into it, that it's very easy for us to make casual statements about scheduling without fully appreciating all of the chess pieces in play.

21:02Matt Roberts: But I do think in an ideal world, those two semifinals are played on the same day somehow in future. Because I can see a scenario where it does feel like a decisive factor and I wouldn't ever want that to be the decisive factor. That doesn't feel right for a tournament of this significance and magnitude and meaning personally. But that's a matter of principle rather than me feeling that it was decisive today.

21:33Catherine Whitaker: I think I'm right in saying that in some previous editions of the Billie Jean King Cup finals, since it moved format in 2021, I think in the past they did have the semifinals on the same day. They had so many more matches to fit in because they had more teams. I don't think they had enough time to stagger semifinals day after day. So they're not, I think I'm right in saying that, you know, in principle, they can do that. I think they've got fewer matches now. They've got more time. So they are spreading it out. One thing that I know for sure is that we haven't had a deciding doubles match yet in a Billie Jean King Cup final since we've had this new format, you know.

22:22Catherine Whitaker: So what is it now? Five additions, I think. They've all been finished in the singles. And look, there's many potential reasons for that. But it's possible that some sort of energy levels are a reason for that, where one team's got more of an advantage over the other. I'd have to look more closely at the data, I think. But yeah, I do think we've had a lot of additions of this now where I feel like we've had really good tournaments and the final's been a little bit flat, a little bit one-sided in a way. And yeah, perhaps the schedule does have something to do with that. But I do agree with you. That wasn't my real read on today specifically.

23:15Matt Roberts: Italy is a force in the tennis world. it's getting a bit ridiculous now isn't it like they it's it's a total monopoly and I know I increasingly joke about it at Grand Slams that like in week one of a slam you look everywhere and there's just a new Italian just creeping out of the woodwork beating beating a Sitsa Pass or a Medvedev you know it's it's pretty incredible They've got something incredibly special going on in the water in Italy. And to achieve both the depth of talent and also the absolute, you know, winning the big titles and being at the top of the sport. By contrast, you've got France, say, that kind of always seems to have the depth, but has lacked the great champions over the years.

24:16David Law: like it's just doing it all David yeah and you know other nations are looking at Italy or you

24:23Matt Roberts: know sending undercover tennis spies into Italy to see what they're doing and to try and implement it back in their car that's what I'd be doing anyway listen certainly I mean I I have really

24:37David Law: only Britain is the is probably the the comparison point but I know that they absolutely look very carefully at the infrastructure element the number of tournaments that italy have in the country that they that they play it's thriving it's a thriving culture of the sport um but then you've also got the sheer number of players that have come through all at once really there's a there's just so many of them as you say you often hear players from a country say oh it's really inspiring when i see my compatriots doing well and we all want each you know with italy i really believe that with italy i genuinely feel like they are feeding off one another or inspiring one another or challenging one another there's just a there is a true vibe and i think men and women i think i think the men are watching watching this and are pumped by it i think that it's the spirit feels good within Italian tennis to me.

25:41David Law: And I think it does pay off, aside from whatever they're doing right, infrastructure-wise. Yeah, yeah.

25:47Matt Roberts: I know correlation is, sorry, Matt, I know correlation is not causation, but a couple of people have mentioned this in the live chat, and I think this is accurate or broadly accurate. Tennis is broadcast free to air, I think, in Italy. And that doesn't feel entirely accidental to me, that the sport should be thriving at all levels in a country where it is so easily and prominently available to watch.

26:17Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, I think it strikes me that when we talk about sort of Italian dominance of tennis at the moment, we're kind of two different ways that we're talking about it. There's the sheer amount of tournaments, the sheer amount of players, and that is very much what we've been talking there about infrastructure in place and all of that kind of thing when it comes to actually winning these tournaments as they have been with with Davis Cup and Billie Jean King Cup over the last few years I think I do think the main thing is they're getting buy-in from their very best players you know like Yannick Sinner is playing the Davis Cup, Jasmine Paolini is playing the Billie Jean King Cup like yes they've got all these players and they do have more than others at the moment and that goes back to the infrastructure but they're playing, you know like the US have more have way more players than Italy in terms of the women's game, you know and they have a similar number of men really, okay not, they don't have a Yannick Sinner but they have a lot of top men but But when was the last time you would say the US Billie Jean King Cup team had their A team?

27:33Catherine Whitaker: I mean, such a long time ago. Italy always has their A team. And they play for each other. I think they get to these events and they're pumped by the memories that they had before here. Whereas the US is kind of like, oh, this is our group this week, is it? Okay, like, we're all good. We can make this work. But they don't have the same buy-in to the competition. And Italy have that across the men and the women right now.

28:04Matt Roberts: Is what they need, the US, the top players buying in and showing up? Or is what they need a group of players, whether they're the absolute best, whether it's Coco Gauff and Madison Keys or not, a settled group of players that are also good, but they've got enough great players that you could have the American 3 and 5 and a great doubles player and it would still be an incredible team that you'd think would be competitive in the competition. Do they need the best players to show up or do they just need a settled, coherent, reliable team that you know will put their hand up and show up and maybe Davenport will pick them because they're the ones that show up and care and buy into it over a Coco Golf who might put her hand up once a year, say.

29:03Matt Roberts: Is that more important than actually...

29:05Catherine Whitaker: I think either.

29:07Matt Roberts: The very best?

29:08Catherine Whitaker: I think either. What do you think, David? I would probably lean towards the very best, really. but I think a very settled group would help.

29:21Matt Roberts: David, what do you think? Yeah, I think it's hard.

29:28David Law: If we were not involved in tennis or we weren't watching tennis and taking this scenario as the norm, it would seem really weird, I think, to have something like this representing your country annually, something that's calling itself the World Cup of Tennis, and seeing this many players just not bothering. I think that that would seem really weird from the outside, and I think that that is a shame. From a Coco Gauff perspective, I understand it, and I think it gets down to how difficult it is to really want to maximise your ranking and also play in the team competition like this. It's very, very tough to pull it off.

30:21But, yeah, I mean, you don't see Jasmine Paulini

30:26David Law: just not playing this thing. And that's a big difference, really, isn't it?

30:33Matt Roberts: Just cycling back to Italy, I know the doubles wasn't required today, but it was required along the way to get Italy to the final. That doubles team of Sara Arani and Jasmine Paolini is so critical to the overall success of Italy in this competition over the last two or three years. How old is Sara Arani now? She's pushing 40, isn't she? And I don't think she's going anywhere anytime soon but for your team to feel so so hinged on somebody of that age I don't know like how much longer do we think Sara Arani is going to play for? I mean will she just go on forever? Do they need her to go on forever?

31:21I reckon she can have at least a couple more years playing like this.

31:28Matt Roberts: I wonder if she's targeting the LA Olympics actually is a potential. And then a seamless transition into Billy Jean King Cup Captaincy.

31:38David Law: Is she one of your marvels, Catherine? She feels like she should be one of your marvels. Yeah. In fact, that's a new list. Catherine's marvels. Good shout. I think she might be. Who did I call a marvel the other day? I had a rush of blood to the head. Talk amongst yourselves. I'm just going to search marvel in my WhatsApp. I've only ever thought of it as Botik. and maybe Lara Siegmund, but you get too irritated by her. No, Catherine uses other words for Siegmund.

32:12Marvel.

32:13Matt Roberts: Right. It turns out I say marvellous a lot, so this isn't going very well. The thing is, I think you said it during the show.

32:21David Law: You said it on a podcast, just sort of with real gusto and took Matt and I by surprise. Was it Andrea Vavasori? No. I wouldn't call Vavasori a Marvel and not Arani, would I? No, I don't think so. No. I can't remember. I don't think I use it willy-nilly. Gosh, that's dramatic from David. Has he gone to find out? Is Sararani a Marvel? I assume David's coming back. David entered the studio. add to stage. David's back. He's gone again. I think Sarah Rani is a marvel. David, good of you to return. You're welcome. I think I pressed something I shouldn't have done. Yes. I think she is a marvel. Catherine's Marvels, is that a new list?

33:20I need to remember who's on it if I'm going to do a new list.

33:24David Law: We're only just starting. What a weird list, Sarah Rani and Burtick van der Zandt. I like it. I don't want to see those two play mixed doubles at something Matt how does it feel to have predicted the correct winners good weekend for you true yeah I mean it doesn't doesn't feel quite as good as Fulham beating Brentford but it's you know it's a small degree of satisfaction for sure I'm just they're a great team and you you You just won't catch me underestimating Jasmine Paolini. And I'm glad you're both with me now on that.

34:09Matt Roberts: Italy's sixth title overall. Only the USA and Czechia have more. The USA have won 18. Czechia have won 11. Oh, Australia as well. Excuse me. Australia have won seven titles. So they're fourth on the all-time list and the first to win back-to-back titles since Czechia. won a three in a row from 2014 to 2016. So they'll be going for the elusive three-peat in 2026.

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37:11Matt Roberts: How do we feel about the week overall? This new location, new venue? slightly changed format for the competition how do we feel about the 2025 Billie Jean King Cup

37:27David Law: finals David well it's impossible to say that the format has been anything other than a huge triumph because of course it is it's knockouts and look at the matches that have resulted it's as sport goes I think it couldn't have been much better you know yes it would have been nice to have had a doubles in that final match and maybe one or two of the others but i mean in just terms of the number of three set epics how many times have you seen round rob in play where matches don't go to three sets or don't get exciting because people it's not that they're not trying it's just that they don't have that edge in them and because they know it's not now and ever and and it's just been a roaring success in that regard.

38:15David Law: I've been mostly pleasantly surprised by the number of people that have come out to watch, or at least that we've seen on TV. There've definitely been a couple of days where I think the TV has had to work very hard to hide parts of the stadium that were completely empty. And you could hear this sort of hollow cheering of a very viscous small contingent of fans of a team. But overall, I mean, that final looked like it got a lot of people in there. And it felt big, felt as you wanted to feel. It's a first year, and I've seen Shenzhen with the WTF finals, and it didn't have that sort of atmosphere all the way through.

38:59David Law: So, look, China generally, there are still all the issues that we've talked about that just go unmentioned because it's inconvenient to talk about a Peng Shui. Where is she? How is she? Is everything okay? And do we just all forget about that? There's loads of things that are slightly uncomfortable about the whole staging of it. Generally, I think it looks like they did a really good job in terms of actually putting on the event, getting people to attend, the buy-in of the teams, the sport that we saw. I think there was loads about it that was good. And then you come to the fact that, I mean, we'll talk about the actual Shriantec final on this Tuesday show that we're doing and we'll talk about the Labour Cup, but the sheer amount of other tennis going on whilst the World Cup of tennis is also going on.

40:00David Law: I don't think that happens in other sports. You don't have a World Cup going on and then loads and loads of other tournaments that take away all the attention. It just feels wrong to me. But in what it could control, I think the Billie Jean King Cup did a good job. And as a sporting event and as a sort of just narratives, the narratives that I watched as the week went along, I thought it was fantastic. Matt, what about you?

40:33Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, it's funny, like, you know, new spot in the calendar, new venue. And yet I kind of come out of it, I think, feeling pretty similar things to what I felt in previous years, which is that I really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed the tennis that was played, the competition, the matches, the drama. Following it over six days or so, I think, was definitely an improvement on previous years. And yet, when I look at the wider tennis landscape, it still feels quite small time to me compared to what I think it could be and should be. And I don't know how many additions of the new Billie Jean King Cup finals we give it before we sort of have an assessment on has this worked or has this not worked.

41:36Catherine Whitaker: I think it has got a little bit better every year. But it's still quite far away from what I would have in my mind as being like the ultimate World Cup of Women's Tennis event. you know um i think i'd be interested to hear from people who've been to the past editions like i have but also been to this one my sense was that maybe the crowds might have been a bit bigger in europe in the last couple of years i do think i do think the tv was doing quite a lot of work of of hiding a lot of empty seats there but i think the volume of these fans and the permanent nature, the permanent structure that they were in, rather than the temporary stadiums that they've had in Seville and in Malaga in the last couple of years, they perhaps made it feel a little bit bigger.

42:31Catherine Whitaker: I think it sort of matters a bit less in Billie Jean King Cup if there are fewer fans, because the ones who are there do make a lot of noise. So it comes across not as empty as it perhaps is. but at the same time you're also left with this feeling of oh I want imagine how good that could be if everyone was making that noise in a stadium and that that ultimately is how I end up always feeling at the end of the Billie Jean King Cup it's like I feel like it's something that I know about we know about a small number of tennis fans know about and when we're watching it and loving it it's great but i always have this feeling of god what it could be and i had that feeling in the old format i had that feeling at the start of the new iterations of these finals and i still have that feeling now after the first edition in shenzhen and i don't know how to change that i don't know how you get bigger crowds how you attract more top players how you find the proper room for it in the calendar like ultimately these all feel like really difficult things to to solve um so i enjoyed it i really enjoyed it i think they staged this you know a good event but i am left feeling god i would have i would have liked more even more you'd need buying from

43:59David Law: everybody is what you'd need, Matt. You'd need everybody within tennis that is making such a hoo-ha about Lever Cup. All these former champions. The Australian Open and the US Open and the ATP Tour. Everybody who's supporting that, for instance. Imagine if they all came together and just said, you know what? It's a real shame that the Billie Jean King Cup and the Davis Cup isn't what we all would love it to be. Why don't we all come together and make it that? Let's get in a room together and figure it out and put it at the head of everything.

44:32Matt Roberts: There's no money in it for him doing that.

44:34David Law: No. And it's really frustrating.

44:39Matt Roberts: Federer's throwing everything into the Labour Cup because he's commercially invested in that. You know, all access to Federer. Tennis, I'll love you and I'll never leave you. Well, his presence in tennis is entirely contingent on his commercial interest in the Labour Cup. If you don't have a problem with that, that's fine. But I find it really, really disappointing.

45:03Matt Roberts: And, yeah, I don't disagree with anything you've said. I mean, I wish this event weren't in China. I think it's a real shame it's in China. I think it's a shame the WTA have backed down on their stance on China. Nothing has changed since the authorities tried to make this or did make this stance on China and then backed down on it. I find that disappointing. I also on a practical level worry that in terms of I'd like to be optimistic and say, yes, the crowds weren't for a lot of ties. The crowds weren't what you'd like to see them being this year. Although I think it was dealt with very well on it was it was well directed, the coverage.

45:43Matt Roberts: The coverage looked good and that is important. But I think there were, you know, there was there were some sessions with poorer crowds. I worry that you know when when tennis first started building its presence in China and the crowds were really poor everyone said give it time give it time to build and grow and establish itself in this part of the world and it's been quite a while now and the crowds haven't really built and grown maybe a little bit but not significantly and I do worry that the same will be true of this tournament, that this is how it's kind of going to be. And we probably need to get used and adjust to that.

46:26Matt Roberts: And it wasn't terrible. And the crowds that were there were incredibly enthusiastic. And I'm grateful for that. But it comes back to what Matt says about that feeling of what it could be. And just in terms of its place in the calendar, I was very enthusiastic when the tournament secured this place in the calendar. I've ended up with quite mixed feelings about it. I think it is the right place in the calendar for it because of where it is, because this tournament is in Shenzhen, is going to be in Shenzhen for a while now. It makes sense for it to be positioned kind of at the start of or certainly within the Asian swing.

47:09Matt Roberts: But I do think in an ideal world, it would be right at the end of the season as the Davis Cup is, and obviously not at a time when other events are happening. It was pretty ludicrous that Igor Shvantec was playing this epic against Ekaterina Alexandrovich at the same time as the Billie Jean King Cup finals final was happening. Now, Poland weren't in the finals. Russia obviously not eligible to play. Neither of those players had snubbed the Billie Jean King Cup in order to play in Seoul. But just the very fact of that happening at the same time and the two detracting from one another is pretty ludicrous, really.

47:47Matt Roberts: So I did find it very soon after the US Open, very soon after a major, to have something that I needed to and wanted to care about so much. But then because of it being in China, I do think this is the right place in the calendar for it.

48:09David Law: There are a lot of people who would say that, and funnily enough, I think Billie Jean King is one of them, that once the US Open's done, then you should have team season. And all these other tournaments should just stop. By all means, have them at lower levels so that people have jobs. But, you know, you don't even need to get to November if you didn't have everything else cluttering it all up.

48:36Matt Roberts: because that involves getting rid of financially, you know. But that's what the premium tour was suggesting.

48:45David Law: If you think back 18 months when there was all that conversation about the Grand Slams getting together and coming up with what they regarded as the calendar, you know, there was some will in the room. It's just, you know, where have those conversations gone?

49:04Matt Roberts: yeah the tennis was fantastic though like ultimately this is a it's a it's a tennis event and it was just elite tennis the level was so high the drama was good you know i'll remember that 17 minute game yeah in terms of sport it was really fantastic and things like the speed of the court you know they got that right to to create good tennis and good matches those those little things really matter um and it was a really good tennis event yeah absolutely what was

49:43Catherine Whitaker: it seven seven ties five really good ones a couple of a couple of blowouts unfortunately one in the final um and a couple of deciding doubles as well but yeah the standout moment i think the paulini comeback against vitolina just that will be a match you know when i when i think of my best matches of the year i think i don't know if it was necessarily the absolute best in terms of quality but it had a it had a lot of what i was looking for in a tennis match you know stakes and not knowing who's going to win until the end and momentum changing, quality, a 17-minute game, you know, triumph and disaster, you know, like just everything.

50:34Catherine Whitaker: And that is an image that I will take away. And I'm grateful that the Billie Jean King Cup gave us that. And that's the unique power of the competition, you know, like it's the only event, and that and the Davis Cup, the only events that can give us all of those feelings um because of because of the country element and playing for playing for bigger than yourself so yeah i i i always come away from these events having loved the tennis and been frustrated with tennis as a whole if that makes sense

51:12Matt Roberts: yeah yeah i mean so many so many of these sort of issues i'm pointing out or wishing were different I don't, I don't, a lot of them I don't blame the event for at all. Like it's just tennis's fault for being structured the way it is and having so many competing agendas. Like it's just, yeah, it's that old chestnut again. But I'm glad it exists, the Billie Jean King Cup, and I've had a great time watching it. And I desperately want it to thrive. Like all of this comes from a place of like love and investment in it as a competition and a product. And it deserves more than tennis is giving it at the moment.

51:58Matt Roberts: Look at Jasmine Paolini there. I thought that was an Irish flag for a moment. It's just the lighting.

52:04Catherine Whitaker: And I've just remembered one of my other favourite scenes of the day, which was, you know, how all the players get the Billy Blue jackets. well Team Italy gave Billie Jean King one of their jackets to put on and she rocked it. So that was a fun moment. Great moment. Yeah, absolutely. These have been fun. I've enjoyed these pods. This has been a lot of fun.

52:33Matt Roberts: We will be back on Tuesday. That is when we'll be talking about Seoul, an eager frontex victory and the Labour Cup. it's because the ATP event's happening this week don't finish until tomorrow Monday finals don't at me Tuesday finals I didn't make the schedule sorry Tuesday finals but in China so yeah yeah don't ask me why but we'll be back on Tuesday to talk about it all and for friends we have a live show this Wednesday a live Q &A show as well. We'll be live on YouTube. It'll be available as a podcast as well. So if you're a friend, please do join us. And if you'd like to become a friend, then the link, as always, is in our show notes.

53:23Matt Roberts: It gives you access to all of our bonus episodes, Tennis Relived, these live shows that we do once a month, Ad Free Listening, The Barge, our community platform. And yeah, we'll pop the link in our show notes. Now, I have been promised by Vicky a really excellent dog as this week's mascot. Oh, here we go. This is Moses, owned by Rita Wilson, wife of Tom Hanks, esteemed actress Rita Wilson. Could happen. Don't laugh. You don't know that it's not.

53:59David Law: No. Moses is our... I don't expect it to be that. hang on Moses is our nine-year-old catahoula leopard dog mix what is this is a marvel tell you what Moses can go on the list a catahoula leopard dog mix I don't know any of those words

54:18Matt Roberts: but I'm in love he came to us at six weeks old as a foster puppy but he we decided he didn't want to live anywhere else. He's very intelligent and emotionally aware. He's a natural born conflict de-escalator and is kept busy by his older dog sister Ella and younger cat brother Pablo. Despite his imposing size and loud voice, Moses has never met a cat he's not terrified of. He can be a bit of a tattletale. We taught him to ring a bell when he wants to go outside, but he rings the bell whenever there is a situation that in his opinion demands our attention, such as the cat being a cat or Ella occupying the bed Moses wants.

54:58There's never a dull moment in a three pet home. Moses is the first one to speak up when the din has reached his limit and we all take notice of his objections. Moses has shown great strength in dealing with some recent health issues. It is our honour to show him every day how much he's loved and appreciated. Oh, that's so beautiful. Here he is in a meadow among some lovely flora and fauna. What a dog.

55:29I didn't know that. I don't know this breed of dog. What an absolute. Oh, he's beautiful. Thank you, Rita Wilson, actress and wife of Tom Hanks, for bringing Moses into our lives. If it's not the Rita Wilson, then I'm sure our Rita Wilson is very annoyed.

55:49Matt Roberts: because she probably gets that a lot, doesn't she? But anyway, you've got a great dog, Rita. Thank you. Thank you to our mascots, Phoebe, Maisie and Roger. Thank you to our top folks and executive producers, Greg, Chris and Geoff. Matt, have you got time for some shout-outs today? Yes, I can watch the highlights of Fulham beating Brentford anytime. So, yeah, can definitely make time for shout-outs. We start with Leslie Gianelli from Wallingford, Connecticut. A potentially Italian-y link with the name? Yeah, and certainly a figure skating link, Catherine.

56:32Catherine Whitaker: Leslie says, I'm a former figure skater. I'm now a skating judge and have been known to watch tennis on my phone during events. Tell me everything.

56:45Matt Roberts: Leslie, figure skating judge, gosh, that is, there's a lot that goes into that. Particularly, I mean, when I was figure skating, judging was, I mean, it was totally subjective. They just used to be like, you know, 5.8, that looked nice. Now you've got to sort of technically justify all your decisions and stuff and watch replays and, you know, do it properly.

57:11David Law: Triple cell case. very good David yep where'd you pull that from triple lutz I remember watching all the ice skating with my mum when I was about 11 yep and Leslie's like Leslie Allen who's a former player and a friend of the tennis podcast yes she gave us a big wave and a beaming smile didn't she when she walked past while we were recording in New York she's a vibe and like Leslie Bowery yeah Leslie Bowery. She is alive. Who has one of the bronze statues outside the Rod Laver Arena, who we've had a photo with a number of times. The statue, not the person. The joke there is that we recorded our emergency Serena Williams podcast with the bust of Leslie Bowery.

58:01Yeah. So now we visit it every year. So we go to get a photo with her every year. One of my favourite moments every year. Yeah.

58:08David Law: And we weren't sure whether she was alive or not, So we looked it up. Turned out she was and we were really joyous about it. Thank you, Leslie, for allowing us to relive that bit of tennis podcast law. Next up, and speaking of tennis podcast law, next up we have Brian Terry from Queens, New York. And the reason I say tennis podcast law is Brian says, I attended my first ever Wimbledon this year.

58:40Catherine Whitaker: I queued on July 7th and got a ground pass and later a resale ticket to see Igor Sviantek versus Clara Towson on number one court. And most importantly, I witnessed the infamous Reggie selfie with Roger Federer. And met a few delightful fellow friends of the pod as we cheered you on from the rooftop. I hope you know how I think Brian does know how lucky he is doesn't he to have witnessed that moment that's in my top three moments of 2025 yeah I don't have a list of those but I know that that's in it oh same same Brian like Brian Shelton Brian Brian Vahaley very good Brian Vahaley and like the, is this a Brian with an I or a Y?

59:36The Y. So like the Bryans, like both Bob and Mike. Yeah. Great stuff.

59:46Catherine Whitaker: You're a lucky man, Brian. And finally, we have Pamela Kennedy from Edinburgh. Hello, Pamela. All right, Pamela. So, what do we know about Pamela? Pamela, let's be honest. In the tennis world? Of course, like Pamela Howard-Shriver. Pamela Howard-Shriver. What do we know about this, Pamela? Any Tennis Kennedys?

1:00:16No.

1:00:19David Law: Former agent from IMG, Stephen Kennedy, used to be the agent of Magnus Norman back in the late 90s and helped me to assimilate when I got my ATP job and he used to take me to play football with all the expats every week. Oh, that's really sweet. In Monte Carlo. Yes. Very nice chap. Oh. Yeah. There you go. That's really lovely. And he once brought into an Irish bar, he once brought in one of his football clients, John Arnaresa, who I would then discover was about to become a Liverpool player. I'd never heard of him at the time. Big, long-throwing guy, John Arnaurisa, wasn't he? He'd fit in well this season.

1:01:07He played for us. They're back. Yes, after Liverpool. Yeah, we were promised a goal-scoring left-back and I think he might have scored one deflected goal from memory. They all count. Yeah, we didn't have him at his peak. He was a good player, wasn't he? Yeah, you got the dregs of John Arnaurisa.

1:01:29David Law: You didn't expect to be talking about that today, did you?

1:01:34well no but Pamela we very much appreciate the opportunity to dip into the David Law Mind Palace Pamela Brian, Leslie thank you ever so much for your support of the Tennis Podcast

1:01:49Matt Roberts: if you'd like to get yourself a shout out, become a friend of the pod the link is in our show notes we are part of the Athletic Podcast Network thank you to Hannah who's been in the chat tonight Vicky who's been managing the show and popping that ticker along the screen telling you to like and subscribe please do like and subscribe are you laughing at me david is it because in a meeting this week i said that when i tell people to like and subscribe i feel like i'm impersonating a 22 year old no it always sounds a

1:02:21David Law: bit a little bit sort of i'm a bit sheepish about it and then you get slightly aggressive well I'm overcompensating for my sheepishness please do like and subscribe everybody and thank you for joining us live on this show if you did and thank you generally for listening if you did that too we'll be back on Tuesday to talk about tennis we'll leave you with the vibes of Jasmine Paolini and Team Italy

1:02:50Matt Roberts: thanks for listening we'll speak to you soon

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