Canada - Did Swiatek, Shelton just enter the US Open mix?

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1:18Matt Roberts: Hello and welcome to the Tennis Podcast. We are live tonight from our respective locations in the UK. All of them are grotesquely hot. If you hear some whirring in the background, it is the various different fans that we all have on the go in order to keep us conscious over the course of this show. If you're joining us on YouTube for the first time in a little while, you'll notice a new backdrop for Matt Roberts. Hello, Matt. This is the live show debut for the new for the new ttp towersst margaret's sort of giving away your location there didn't check that with you um

2:07Catherine Whitaker: yeah save me this this is what the people are gonna get maybe i'll rotate what's behind me but for the moment we have jude we have billy jean king pretty tough to beat those two things next up is sorting out the acoustics in this room so i'm less i'm less echoey but we're very much in that can wait till after new york territory right now i would say yes i'm excited about

2:31Matt Roberts: the sound proofing measures that might be involved sort of it used to be um i remember when my my brother was in a band as a teenager there was some egg egg um egg boxes oh i want to say they do soundproofing.

2:48David Law: I sent Matt an article the other day about soundproofing his room. Any mention of egg boxes? There weren't actually. I mean, I think that's a very blue Peter solution.

2:59Matt Roberts: I'm sure other options are available, but if you're DIYing it, I believe that egg boxes do the trick. No creepy Amanda Nisimov doll, Matt. I assume she's just out of shot. But just letting you know that I see your game you're trying to you're trying to edge edge that one out of rotation i will not be forgetting about her uh coming up in today's show folks we've got a lot to talk about we've got titles for iga shantek and ben shelton in toronto and montreal respectively we've got an excellent dog involved in a trophy photo shoot plus we've got cincinnati which is somehow already underway And we've actually got a bit of a deep dive on Jack Draper, whose struggles very much continue.

3:49Matt Roberts: And David's been speaking to the ATP for some background on where they stand on the apparent rise in injuries in men's tennis. So that's all coming up later in the show. But before we get into all of that, a little announcement from us. A lot of people, in fact, in the live chat already tonight, right on cue, A lot of people have been asking us whether there will be a live audience show in New York this year. And while there won't be one exactly like we've done for the last couple of years, not because they haven't been absolutely brilliant and we do want to do that again, we have scheduled a road trip to Newport to see Mary Grillo and, to a lesser extent, Roger Federer be inducted into the International Tennis Hall of Fame this year.

4:38Matt Roberts: We're trying to squeeze that into our pre-Grand Slam agenda. Really not sure how that's going to go, but I am excited about it. But it does mean that our usual New York live show plans can't quite go as they have done the last couple of years. But we have been given the opportunity to bring the Tennis Podcast to the Fan Week stage on site at the Billie Jean King National Tennis Centre. We will be on the Fountain Plaza stage right in the heart of the US Open on Thursday the 27th of August at 1pm. That is, of course, draw day. So that's what we'll be talking about. And if you're at the Billie Jean King National Tennis Centre that day or you'd like to be, and remember, tickets are free for Fan Week and there's a lot more going on than just us on the stage, but we will be on the stage.

5:29Matt Roberts: Please do come along. one of our favourite things about the live shows is what a friendly kind warm spirited generous audience it always is and they'll be it'll be a bit different I think there's going to be more casuals who are like what on earth have we stumbled upon here so some friendly faces would be much appreciated and we hope that it can plug the live show whole for the very eager fans who we're very grateful for that have been asking after whether we're going to do a New York live show. We're on at one, as I said, directly before us is the cast of Chicago on Broadway. There's a Matt Chicago gag in there somewhere that I haven't quite workshopped yet, but give me two weeks and it'll be, I'll have nailed it.

6:22Yeah, it's like Barbenheimer.

6:27Matt Roberts: The Chicago tennis podcast double is the Barbenheimer. I'd like to be Barbie, please. I hated Oppenheimer. Let's be Barbie. That makes the cast of Chicago on Broadway Oppenheimer. Sorry about that. So, yeah, Thursday, 27th of August, 1 p.m. We'll be talking about The Draw. We'll also have a podcast as normal that day, also talking about the draw. So if your bag is listening to Matt Roberts talk about the draw, you're in for a treat on Thursday, the 27th of August.

7:04Catherine Whitaker: I'm getting to spread the word about draws one slam at a time. So that's great. I will be pumped. It's one of my favourite days of the year, draw day.

7:14Matt Roberts: Yeah, Matt's like, yes, we will do a show on the stage, but you really should be doing the draw on the stage, not the tennis podcast.

7:23Catherine Whitaker: Next year, maybe.

7:26David Law: What we want to be doing is the draw seamlessly going to Matt Roberts for reaction. That's what we want.

7:35Matt Roberts: Absolutely. Look, we push the agenda incrementally, David. This is a step in the right direction. So we hope to see lots of you there. On to Toronto, or Toronto as the locals call it, and Iga Sviantek, who is back, folks. She's won her first title since September of last year. She beat Elena Rabakina 6-2, 6-3 in what was a slightly disappointing final, given the level that the two of them had produced in the lead-up to the final. not a disappointing performance for Shontek at all, but in terms of the contest, I was braced for this to be absolutely epic, given the nature of their rivalry over the years and what their matches have looked like.

8:22Matt Roberts: It wasn't quite that, but honestly, in large part due to eager Shontek in the final and throughout the fortnight of the tournament being so damn good. She called out her critics in the speech. We'll come on to that. There was a dog. it is all happening for Riga Shvontek David and yeah this is this is what we've been waiting for and honestly there have been moments I think for all of us to a greater and lesser degree it's ebbed and flowed but there have been darker Shvontek moments I think where we've wondered if we might ever see this version of her again which obviously now feels completely silly but that such is

9:07David Law: recency bias right and i think also because she seemed as though she was struggling not just with her game and with results but struggling mentally really out there and and just feeling anxious feeling like she didn't really have control over everything in the way that she would want i think back to the french open and that sort of period and yeah she talked about the the anxiety and she seemed to take a break after Wimbledon and come back just refreshed, you know, just ready to go and ready to compete again. And I think even if she hadn't won this tournament, the whole process was one of freshness.

9:55David Law: And, I mean, she played a load of good tennis along the way and yet still nearly got knocked out of the tournament. The fact that she ended up winning it, I found really, really encouraging because she had to come through some tricky moments. She played some of her best tennis, but not all the time. This wasn't the sort of Svantec that we've seen roll through draws without even being threatened. She's not that player at the moment, but she's a bloody good player, and she's definitely onto something which has clearly been building and worked on of sort of trying to just modify her game and give her more control over it.

10:31David Law: Doesn't always work. but I mean the big match to me was the the win over Svitolina which um I watched all of that and she won the first set and then Svitolina did what she'd been doing all tournament long which was losing her first set and then coming on strong and frankly taking over and I thought Svitolina had got this in the deciding set she broke for three two I was sitting watching my son and I said this is this is Svitolina's now I mean that was a terrible terrible take because you didn't win another game, you know, because Svantec just took over. So I think really, really encouraging. I didn't realise quite how much of a drought it had been for her game this year to not have won a title, you know, and done this.

11:20But great stuff from her.

11:23Matt Roberts: Is this the project, the Svantec project, that has been rumbling for a while now, but it predates Francisco Roig, I think. The project of controlled aggression, greater margins, not just hitting harder and harder and going for more and more, especially when the wheels feel like they're coming off. Is this the project come to fruition or coming to fruition for Igor Shvantec?

11:54Catherine Whitaker: To me, yes. This looked like the brand of tennis that I think she's been wanting to play for quite some time. You know, when I think of Igas Fiontech, I think of her playing as though there's two nets and she's clearing the net always by that margin. And yet she's hitting the ball aggressively. She's not just looping it. She's not just playing it safe. She's hitting aggressive shots, but with margin and with spin. And she does that so well. and I thought the first set against Svitolina was that to a tee. It was just wonderful control of the ball, but also with enough aggression mixed in there.

12:34Catherine Whitaker: And the final two. One of the things that actually happened under Wimper's set is she turned her head-to-head against Rabatkinner a round. I think she knows how to play Rabatkinner now. And I would say I think Rabatkinner was affected in this match by fatigue. She'd finished at 1am the night before against Coco Gauff. And even in the first game, you saw her move out to a backhand and look pretty sluggish. And I do think that was a factor in the final, how fresh Fiontek was compared to Rabatkinner. But she was brilliant, Fiontek, in the final, hitting with that margin, moving across the baseline, that fleet-footedness, getting everything back, creating a wall that Rabatkinner couldn't get through.

13:14Catherine Whitaker: And by the end, she was absolutely purring, I thought, Fiontek, playing brilliantly. but I agree with David there were moments in the tournament that made you go okay, she's not the 2022 player who was just absolutely destroying everyone and got on a roll and couldn't be stopped there was the serving in the opening set against Kostiuk, there was the second set laps against Svitolina and I think that's going to be the way back for Sviantec to where she was, she's going to have to look like this player for a while which is having having some moments in matches where it might go a bit wrong but responding to them much better than she has done over the last year or so and she did that there wasn't there wasn't that sense of panic in her there wasn't that stress to her on court she was generally i thought a lot lighter and trusting her game and trusting the work she's done and it was it was great to see you know like the the the tour is a even better place when when this version of sviantech is around because no one else who really plays this kind of brand of tennis, I would say.

14:23Catherine Whitaker: So it was a real thrill to get to see it again, and I hope it continues.

14:30Matt Roberts: It was such a different experience, for me at least, watching Iguer Svjantek these past couple of weeks. Leiter is a great way of putting it. I didn't feel worried for her. I didn't feel anxious. Even when she's been playing well in the last 10 months or so, I've been waiting for the wheels to come off and worried about what would happen when they do feel like they're coming off. It's quite energising actually to see somebody at this stage of the season when everyone's exhausted and on fumes and it's been a particularly brutal summer in terms of conditions. And obviously we're all sitting here in our not air conditioned, baking hot summer living rooms receiving government alerts about potential wildfires.

15:18Matt Roberts: Like everyone is just totally frazzled. And to see Iga Shontek coming out looking like she's just had an off season and fresh faced and, you know, cuddling dogs. I've never seen Iga Shontek cuddle a dog before. Now I know that the dog was presented to her and you can't not cuddle it in that situation, but she was so into it, David. This is, by the way, Elway we're talking about. He's kind of the unofficial tournament dog. He belongs to the tournament manager. And I don't think he's always featured in the photo shoots, but it became a thing last year when Ben Shelton won in Toronto. He's always been a thing behind the scenes, I think, Elway.

16:02Matt Roberts: But his front-facing role in the tournament is a new thing and a very welcome thing. And I just, I felt so joyful watching her cuddling Elway, David. I was like, I don't know. I know it's easier to be happier when you're winning and it's a circular thing, isn't it? Being happy and fresh makes you more likely to win and winning makes you feel happier and fresher. But whatever it is, and I don't know what's happened. And maybe it is just the benefit of a bit of time off or some time to really settle in with Francisco Roig. Something feels really different to me about Igor Shiontek. Yeah, I've not even thought about the results that much when I've been watching her.

16:49Sometimes I feel like it seems like sometimes her self-worth is wrapped up in the results.

16:57David Law: And her state of mind will be, you know, that she needs to win actually to feel OK. hasn't felt like that all tournament long really i there have been some dodgy sets you know uh where the wheels have come off or you know you've seen a struggle even even when she was that six love three love up and she had that long game uh the other day and and then ended up winning through but she seems to be relishing the fight and the process of trying out this game and trying to sort of just fine tune it a little bit here and there and uh i love seeing that um i i mean i i do feel as though that there's a real opportunity for her at the moment because the other players are all searching a bit at the moment i mean i don't quite know how rebecca got to the final i have no i mean she has not played very well this tournament and she was in the final

17:53Matt Roberts: yeah yeah let's come on to Rebecca just to just to put a bow on the the Shontek stuff it felt felt to me just to sealing it down like she was playing to win and not playing not to lose which is the it's one of the bear traps isn't it for tennis players that you fall into and that that Shontek herself has has talked about before that that is a trap that she has fallen into in the past. On Rabatkinner, just on the final, first of all, I know we're a broken record about scheduling, but how on earth, with two frigging weeks of a tournament to play with, have we got a situation where a final is frankly compromised in quality by the fact that one of the finalists finished playing at 1am the night before?

18:40Like, what are we doing?

18:44Catherine Whitaker: yeah i mean they had rain which always makes things difficult and and the semi-final was pushed back but like the whole of the last three or four days of this tournament were was night session and it was really hard to watch live here in the uk but okay it's night session for the market but then the final's not night session okay it's sort of early evening i suppose and then what it meant was that that semi-final got pushed back it was a really long match against Coco Gauff been three sets in the other semi-final as well we're back in the finishes at 1am and has to come back at 6pm the the same day you know and we know that a 1am finish means probably 4am to bed something like that once you've done your recovery and your and your press and got your food and all that kind of stuff like she would have had very little time to turn around And yeah, it was a shame that the final got so compromised by that.

19:42Catherine Whitaker: I mean, I do think Shontek was the more convincing player through the tournament, looked to be playing closer to her peak. And honestly, like, I was shocked Rebecca got through to the final. Like, she won four matches in deciding sets and certainly raised her level in those matches when she needed to. She turned it around against Asaka. She got a lot better as the match went on against Goff. But she just played a lot of bad tennis in this tournament as well. And it's one of those things where it's like, I have to check myself because if someone like Coco Goff wins matches like that, my analysis is always positive.

20:26Catherine Whitaker: It's always like, oh, isn't she an amazing fighter and is able to dig deep and win when she's not at her best and all that kind of stuff. And yet I watch Rebecca and I'm like, God, she's playing really badly. How has she won? And I'm just trying to get that in my mind of why I have that different experience. I do think part of that is bedded into Goff's game.

20:50Matt Roberts: She's not a natural scrapper, Rebecca, is she?

20:54Catherine Whitaker: Right. But I think she's an underrated scrapper, I suppose is what I'm saying. She has got that thing of not being too bothered by unforced errors piling up and just getting on with it and eventually finding the game and eventually finding the strike. And it's very impressive in its own right. It's just that it's so far from how she wants to be playing, I think, and so far from how we've seen her play and what she's capable of, that you have to kind of wrestle with it when you watch it and think it's still an amazing feat that she is winning this match, even though what I'm seeing is actually quite bad.

21:29Catherine Whitaker: You know, a lot of errors, a lot of forehand errors, very vulnerable on serve, things that shouldn't really be happening. But she did do well to come through all those matches. Her peaks were incredible.

21:40Matt Roberts: Even in that final, which was a pretty one-sided scoreline, she still had some peaks in that that would just sublime. I suspect the quite often misleading and substandard WTA highlights package would have quite a lot of Rabakina in it because Shontek was kind of an 8 out of 10 the whole match and Rabakina veered between a 10 out of 10 and a 2 out of 10. And that was kind of the story of her tournament, wasn't it? It's just that it wasn't until the final that she, well, she A, had way less in the tank and B, came up against Shontek playing the way, as we discussed Shontek was playing but you know Rebecca very likely now is going to become the world number one probably playing like this I think Sabalenka will probably have to win the US Open it's a bit more complicated than that because obviously there's still Cincinnati but most likely Sabalenka is going to have to defend the US Open to retain that world number one I don't know It's a funny old spot.

22:52It's very intriguing where we are with Rabakina right now.

22:57David Law: Yeah, at the start of the year, she felt like the world number one did Rabakina because she was playing at the end of last year and at the start of this year so, so well. But yeah, I mean, there are different facets to being the best, aren't there? And in order to get world number one. And Sabalenka's a good scrapper. And I think that probably because Rebecca is very quiet and because she is so clean, her ball strike is so clean that when she's missing, it kind of looks bad, particularly on the forehand. It makes you feel a bit unsettled because she was missing a lot on the forehand side. But the fact she ends up in the final, I think is a massive achievement.

23:42David Law: and uh yeah if she gets that world number one ranking it's well earned you don't nobody gets that thing by fluke you know you you can even have a hot streak in a grand slam and and win one of those but you can't do that as a world number one um that's consistent or at least 365 day being the best overall how badly was she led off the hook by naomi osaka

24:11Matt Roberts: in the quarterfinals. She was 6-4, 4-2 down against Osaka. I know this match feels ages ago already, but I went to sleep at that point. I'd stayed up late to watch it. I'd found Osaka so convincing. My eyes were dropping. I was pretty confident that I knew how that match was going to play out, and I was surprised to find the scoreline that I woke up to. What was your take on that match, Matt?

24:42Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, I thought Osaka just got a little bit tentative and passive at the end of that second set and went slightly away from what she had been doing to get herself in that brilliant position, twice a break up in that second set. And then even in the third, Osaka did have chances. She had loved 40 to go up 4-2. I'm not saying Rebecca can have saved those break points very impressively and by that point had found her game. And it felt like Osaka's chance was really to win it in straight sets, probably. But perhaps, you know, that is the question mark, I think, we've still got against Osaka's name, right?

25:22Catherine Whitaker: Like, I think she's showing that her tennis is capable of living with the best players in the world at the moment. You know, she's beaten Sabalenka at a slam now. She's led Rabatkaner by that scoreline, put herself in a winning position. it's just that final step that next step that she needs to take now which is closing one of these tournaments and sustaining it through a whole tournament and that's what she used to do she used to get to the latter stages of tournaments and win them, big tournaments she had that record didn't she where she got past the fourth round of the major she would win it that has gone now and in this new phase of her career she's just not quite as reliable in those big moments and other players can sort of push her in those stress moments and we haven't seen the brilliant reaction from her that we used to see.

26:14Catherine Whitaker: But I still think it's positive generally for Osaka. I still think she's playing really good tennis, dangerous tennis. And, you know, we talked a lot about how much sense her game suddenly made on the grass this year. I still think she's pleased to have hard courts underfoot again And I think this is where she sees herself as the most dangerous. She's obviously pulled out of Cincinnati with fatigue. I think that's probably a smart move, you know, like saving herself for the US Open. I sort of hope that's what it is and there's not a real issue there. Yeah, like she's played Washington, she's played Canada.

26:58Catherine Whitaker: It's probably enough matches. Now just get yourself ready for the US Open and let the others go. to war in the searing heat in Cincinnati, you know?

27:08Matt Roberts: Yeah, it looks brutal, doesn't it? What did we think of Shontek calling out the haters in her speech? It was very Coco Gauff, French Open 2025. Is that when she did the calling out the haters?

27:26Catherine Whitaker: It might have been the US Open, was it?

27:28Matt Roberts: Was it the US Open? Okay. I mean, tennis players do love to call out haters. as Shvantec said I'm really happy about this tournament it means so so much to me because these past months were not easy I'm really happy that I kept focusing on growing changing my game a bit improving despite all the opinions that many people have about me every day on the internet it's not easy to deal with all that so I'm happy that the reality is different the reality is I have people that know me so well and people that support me every week every day they're here to give their best work and just keep pushing so thank you to the team that is here Thank you to Francis, who's probably flying to Cincinnati right now.

28:07Matt Roberts: Sorry that I had to win the first title with you when you weren't here. And as I said, I want to dedicate this title to everyone who is dealing with unfair judgment and hate. Just keep pushing, keep going, keep focusing on yourself because you know what's best for you. And always remember what's ahead and what might be possible. So, yeah, here we are, she said. and I saw some other quotes from an interview she did after the match which suggested that she was particularly talking about sort of online commentary she gets in Poland in her home country which is quite difficult for us to judge and comment on because we're not exposed to it and if we were we wouldn't understand it.

28:51Matt Roberts: And, you know, we see the Polish journalists at tournaments. I don't know them. I don't know any of them particularly. There's quite a lot of them. They are all men. That doesn't mean they're not doing a great job. But I do always feel for, you know, young women from countries that are just constantly having to go into rooms and faith questioning from an entire room full of older men. And, like, that dynamic is just difficult. But it's a double-edged sword, isn't it, calling out the haters? Because, like, it's a good thing to channel, isn't it? It's good. Channeled in a positive way, it's a positive thing.

29:39But I don't know.

29:44Matt Roberts: What do you think, Matt?

29:45Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, in his sub stack, Ben Rothenberg was reporting that it was in particular related to a podcast that had been done in the Polish media by quite a famous psychologist, I think, in Poland, who had been on a podcast with a known tennis commentator in Poland, someone who commentates for Eurosport, I think. And that podcast got taken down afterwards because apparently The comments were quite personal and quite nasty and quite sort of aimed at Svantec and her team. And my sense, and certainly Ben's sense in his piece, was that that was a big part of this. And it maybe had been one of those things that had been impossible for Svantec to avoid.

30:38Catherine Whitaker: You know, like I would like to think she is avoiding just sort of general people on social media. But something like that, I think it got quite a big profile by the sound of things. But I did like the defiant side.

30:53Matt Roberts: That's good to know. Being aware of, I mean, everyone's getting hate on the internet, right? I mean, we're getting hate on the internet. Like, if you want to find hate for yourself on the internet, it's there. It's obviously worse for tennis players. It's terrible what they have to face. But, like, I just think that way madness lies. Even if sometimes you are able to channel it in a positive way and use that as fuel, there is a flip side to that that you are going to feel the brunt of you know yeah yeah and it was a

31:21Catherine Whitaker: big celebration she gave it was huge yeah she like pointed to her head she looked at the camera

31:27Matt Roberts: she did a big yasda at the camera which is i liked that there was anger in the celebration

31:33Catherine Whitaker: and i've not you know what there was seen that before was there was there was good honor i say

31:40Matt Roberts: yeah I really loved it it's really cool that we're going to be going regardless of what happens in Cincinnati now it's really cool I think that we're going to be going into the US Open with Iguer Shiontek in this form it doesn't necessarily mean I'm picking her as the favourite although also not ruling that out but this is a welcome additional strand to the conversation

32:08David Law: Yeah, it's such a rare feeling to be this unsure, for me at least, of who the favourite is going to be for that tournament. We were talking about how almost reputationally you've got to say Sabalenka just because of the record she's got there. Well, the fact that she is still number one in the world and Rebecca isn't exactly just grabbing your attention towards her, even though she's reached the final. At the start of this year, I would have probably felt differently if she'd have come in with that sort of form. At the moment, and there's still time, of course, Cincinnati may well make us feel something else, or make me feel something else, but I'm mainly just pumped that this thing feels wide open.

32:52David Law: Let's have it.

32:54Matt Roberts: David is mainly just pumped, and Catherine is pleased to see oomph. Everybody is being on brand tonight. The doubles in Toronto was on by Katarina Siniarkova and Zhang Shuai, they teamed up to win their third title together and their first at WTA 1000 level. They beat Sara Rani and Nicole Melikar-Martinez in the final and lost only 28 games through five rounds, including wins over Coco Goff and Katie McNally, who are playing together again this year a bit, and Saranaka Stea and Mir Andreva as well. So that is quite a run to the title. Well done them. We'll be heading to part two in just a moment.

33:36Matt Roberts: Before we do, to mark your cards about what we have coming up in terms of the pod. We've got a whole lot of pods coming up, let me tell you. But we have some friends-only content as well, including our next edition of Tennis Relived, our US Open 2026 edition, which, Matt, is going to be about?

33:58Catherine Whitaker: A draw. I think it's our most niche episode of Tennis Relived ever. I'm very excited about it. David deserves all the credit for finding out about it. It was actually when he was researching Malavie Washington for our Wimbledon Relived episode that he came across this. In 1996, the US Open, there was a redraw on the men's side. They did it. People were not happy about it. People were kicking off. The word boycott was being thrown around and the USTA, yeah, redid it. And we're going to dive deep into why all of that happened and the fallout and all the quotes that the players gave. I think we're going to have a lot of fun on this show.

34:50Matt Roberts: I'm very excited. We had to bump off Svetlana Kuznetsova to make this episode happen. Postpone. She's on the short list. She remains on the, well, she's on the medium list. We'll get round to Svetlana. Tough year for her. She didn't get into the Hall of Fame, did she, either. But her time will come.

35:10Catherine Whitaker: That was why we were going to do an episode on her. Right. Because she didn't get into the Hall of Fame. But now we've bumped her off as well. That will remain true. Imagine if they do a redraw at the US Open this year and our live show is reacting to a redraw. That'd be fun. Yeah.

35:31Matt Roberts: Chicago followed by draw takedown show. What a double header. Last thing to mark your cards about, folks. We have new merch coming soon. You've had the Matt's backhand list T-shirt. You've had the David Pumped T-shirt. Soon we will be launching the Cut the Faff Catherine T-shirt.

35:58Matt Roberts: viewers on YouTube are looking at a picture of me in a sample of the Cut the Faff T-shirt, or one of the versions of the Cut the Faff T-shirt, which I wore on Dog Walk this week. And it does have a little Tennis Podcast logo on the sleeve, but it's, you know, primarily you just see Cut the Faff on the front. And two separate women, not Tennis Podcast listeners, came up to me and asked where they could buy this T-shirt. So women everywhere are tired enough of faff that they want to display it about their person, apparently. And they will soon be able to do just that. The tees are going to be launching in the Tennis Podcast Shop very soon.

36:36Matt Roberts: So watch this space. And just finally, on FAF, I want to give a shout out to Sylvan in the comments who, when we were talking about the live show earlier, suggested we do a rendition of All That Jazz, but make it All That FAF.

36:57Matt Roberts: come along and find out whether we do that yeah do come sylvan yeah uh okay folks that is it for part one we'll be back in part two to talk about montreal and a title for ben shelton

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39:43Matt Roberts: Welcome back to part two. of today's tennis podcast where we head to Montreal now. According to Brandon Nakashima, the far better of the two Canadian Masters 1000 venues. He reached his first Masters 1000 final and was beaten by countryman Ben Shelton, 6-3, 7-6. Shelton defending the title. He had also beaten Jakub Mensik in the quarterfinals, destroyed Mensik, in fact, 6-3, 6-1. and Lerner Tien didn't do an awful lot better in the semifinals, 6-3, 6-2, although the feel of that match, I think, was rather more competitive. This was destructive tennis from Ben Shelton to defend this title, David.

40:27David Law: This is the best tennis I've ever seen from Ben Shelton all week. I think the closest to it I've seen was the US Open last year before he hurt himself and he got that really bad injury. I thought he was excellent for the first part of the Australian Open. And then the weather changed and indoor tennis came around and he just didn't look quite the same potent force. And obviously he ran into the annex centre, which is also a problem. But this was just next level. I mean, he won this title last year. He didn't play anything like this. He kind of won ugly there. He played fine, but he basically just scrapped his way to the title a year ago and all power to him.

41:11But this was clean, devastating tennis.

41:15David Law: He was hitting his backhand confidently and cleanly. He was just waiting to pull the trigger on the forehand. He wasn't panicking and just trying to go for it all the time when it wasn't on. And when he was stretched out wide quite a lot of the time, when the opponent was in charge, he would then unleash, I can only describe as like a sort of Pete Sampras-style running forehand to just end the point and that was happening a lot he was in some of the athleticism i mean when it's no it's no nothing new to talk about the athleticism of ben shelton but it's it's the intensity with which he was using his energy and with she was using his athleticism to kind of get to a ball even quicker to finish a rally at the net maybe with a volley good touch i mean these were straight sets destructions i thought yakub menschik was going to win this tournament and i know he was a bit disappointed in that match against shelton but he wasn't he just wasn't given a chance it was unbelievable and then i watched the highlights of the learner tn match straight sets tn had been playing well and tn just couldn't seem to get it get in his head you know he was trying his his slice game and his his angles and like when he came up with him, Shelton just said, it's all right, you have a slice back as well.

42:33David Law: And then eventually he pulled the trigger and start dominating. Um, and Brandon Nakashima, best tennis I've ever seen from him as well this week. And, uh, his, uh, I think he hit four aces in the first service game to win it to 15. Um, but he just couldn't, he couldn't get to Shelton enough. and I think this was a really exciting performance and I think Shelton now needs to figure out a way to peak again for the US Open and hope that this wasn't the peak that he can't reach at the US Open. But he was awesome.

43:11Matt Roberts: This was the Ben Shelton I was expecting to see earlier in the year during the number threes up for grabs era when Alexander Zverev was unconvincing and struggling with the back injury. And okay, we had Al Karaz and Sinner and they were apart. But yeah, we were constantly saying, number three is up for grab, folks. Someone come along and grab it. I thought, you know, the most grabby of the contenders was probably Ben Shelton. I had my question marks about his game, but I didn't have my question marks about the grab. And he was so disappointing during that period. But maybe he was just biding his time and he's timed it just right.

43:54Matt Roberts: And actually, this is a better time to grab the opportunity because Yannick Sinner and Carlos Alcaraz are both now big question marks, Matt.

44:05Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, he's had a strange season, hasn't he? Because he's won four titles. This is his fourth title of the season. He's won a title on every surface and now an outdoor hardcourt one as well to go with an indoor hardcourt one. So in that sense, you could say he's sort of expanded some of the limits of his game. And he has done quite a lot of winning in that sense. But at the big events, he'd been really disappointing. I think Indian Wells prior to this week was the only thousand event where he'd won a match. And he obviously had that second round exit in Paris, first round at Wimbledon. And it was really disappointing, you know, really disappointing.

44:45Catherine Whitaker: Tight losses he had, but in those fields, he absolutely needed to be making it deep into the second week, I think. But I'm really impressed by the way he's bounced back from that and not let that linger. And I think he's realised that, OK, that's in the past, can't know anything about that, but it's still my time. And as much as the season is long, I still think Shelton sees this time of year, the North American hardcourt swing heading into the US Open as his time, his best chance to do something big in this sport. You know, last year, obviously, when Canada as well was playing so well, gets the injury at the US Open.

45:30Catherine Whitaker: It's like he's just trying to run it back this year without the injury. But I agree. I think he's playing better. I think he's more convincing in this tournament than he was last year. 12 sets out of 12. Only three of those sets went beyond 6-4, which to me the big thing is he's breaking serve. The number of sets he's had there which weren't particularly close is a good sign for him because he's getting into people's service games. Backhand held up, as David said. Forehand was doing damage, played big moments well, was excellent. And it just depends what the US Open looks like, right? You know, in a Grand Slam field where Sinu and Alcaraz are at their absolute best, I don't think Shelton can play like this.

46:16Catherine Whitaker: I don't think those players allow him to. They're too good. And I would say Shelton not in the mix. But a Grand Slam field where one of them is out and the other's in and there's a chance in one half of the draw, Shelton should absolutely be in the conversation a Grand Slam where neither of them are convincing and we don't know what state they're going to be we don't even know if they're even going to be in the draw then Shelton is in the mix at that slam and that's kind of all he can do I think he has to do everything he can do and he has to not worry about Sinner and Alcarez and kind of see how it goes

46:56Matt Roberts: He's got a bit of a Zverev problem Shelton hasn't he?

46:59Catherine Whitaker: As many lefties do. I mean, that is a tough, tough matchup.

47:04Matt Roberts: Yeah. Yes.

47:05Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, the dark, I suppose.

47:07Matt Roberts: I don't think I didn't notice there, Matt, that you seem to slip in a new... So you had... You went not in... One scenario not in the mix, one scenario in the mix, and then there was a middle scenario.

47:19Catherine Whitaker: I used conversation, didn't I?

47:20Matt Roberts: You said in the conversation.

47:23Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, that's not a thing. I apologise for that. The problem is... Maybe it is a thing.

47:27David Law: Maybe you're making it a thing.

47:29Catherine Whitaker: The thing is, there's this genre of Grand Slam that we can get now. We've had it, you know, two in a row where you get the Sinner half and you get the other half. And it kind of depends which half you're in, because if you're in the other half, are you in the mix? No, because you've still got to get past Sinner probably in the final. But you're in the conversation because you can get to the final. Do you know what I mean?

47:54Matt Roberts: what you're saying is don't ask me if ben shelton is in the u.s open mix because it's not a fair

47:59Catherine Whitaker: question well until the draw comes out and we will be talking about the david on the u.s

48:06Matt Roberts: david i can rely i can rely on david for an outlandish prediction is ben shelton in the u.s open mix at this moment knowing what we know i know how many unknowns there are i know it's a nonsense question right now but i'm asking it i don't think it's a nonsense question and my answer

48:22David Law: is an emphatic yes and i think the reason is because we don't know what we're going to get from sinner at this tournament we don't even know if he's going to be in it and even if he is in it we haven't seen him play since wimbledon he had a knee he's got a knee injury that's kept him out of the the main warm-up tournament for the u.s open so to my mind there's no telling that he's going to be normal yannick sinner um and carlos alcar as well i mean it's so long since we've seen him How can you put any kind of confident take out there about him? Other than it'll be a hell of an achievement if he managed to do anything.

49:06David Law: I think that Shelton is right there. I mean, I do think Zverev's a problem, but I also think Zverev hasn't played very well at the US Open in recent times. Last year, he lost to Felix Ogiali, a seam, and he said, I struggled to get a feel-all tournament. I know he's playing a hell of a lot better this year, but he lost first round in Canada. Cincinnati feels quite big for him. I think it's right there for Shelton to have the best slam of his career and maybe do this one. Well, yeah, I think he's got a really decent shot at that given where things are right now. and I realise we haven't seen the draw yet.

49:52David Law: We don't know whether his form will carry over. We don't know how he'll be physically because last year of what happened to him. But I'm very encouraged by what I saw.

50:02Matt Roberts: Should he play Cincinnati?

50:05David Law: I think probably yes. I think so. I think so.

50:09Matt Roberts: But losing mid-tournament wouldn't be the worst thing in the world?

50:14David Law: No, I mean, it's interesting. Last year when he won Toronto and he won that, as I said, with a struggle. I mean, he showed great tenacity and stamina to outlast everybody and win it. And then he played really badly, I remember, in Cincinnati. He lost a one-sided match and that felt like, okay, the guy's hit the wall. I don't feel like he's expended loads and loads of energy. He just looks fresh. He looks ready to go. Now, I realize he's still got another month of this And I realize these tournaments are longer than they used to be, but Andy Roddick did this. He went on his run in 03 and won Canada and just kind of kept on rolling and used that.

51:02David Law: And Shelton is... I don't fear for Shelton's cardiovascular fitness or his freshness or his excitement levels.

51:11Matt Roberts: Do you fear for his shoulder?

51:13David Law: I absolutely feel for his joints, you know the stress that he's putting on his body because he's such a a powerful mover um it's it's an inexact science isn't it you can't know what's the best thing to do but i think he needs to just keep on pushing and hope he gets some fortune with his body not breaking down

51:37Matt Roberts: good any nakashima takes for us today david

51:41David Law: bloody impressive bloody impressive all week long and I said to you the other day I was talking about Wayne Ferreira and I always think it's hard to know how much of an impact a coach has had but I mean come on I don't think it's coincidence that he's playing I think Ferreira gets to the nub of things so quickly with a player by being so direct and blunt and I think he makes a player like Tiafa or Nakashima just not cruise, not coast, not think there's tomorrow, there's next week. I think too many of these players, I could imagine Nakashima being such a consistent performer and such a sort of level-headed guy that I think he can probably rationalize when things don't go too well and build again for next week.

52:34David Law: Ferreira's not interested in that. I think he wants he wants these guys to just stand up and take on the best in the world and believe they're going to win not just play okay um so and i think he's back it backing it up he's playing beautifully he's he's one of the most he like i haven't got stats to back this up but he comes across as one of the most accurate servers in the world i mean like it's not going the fastest stats do back it up i think yeah right and it just looks like okay well if he hits the spots he's going for you you haven't got much chance and he hits them a lot there's the brilliant match was at the semi-final when he when he played beautifully and then he sort of kind of choked at the end and yeah and just the hodda match incredibly yeah it got incredibly tight by the way hodda looked like he hit the wall i think part of that was just geez you know i've played this well to beat art a feast and looked like he was going to do it all and then Nakashima's just kind of kept him at bay the whole match with the accuracy of serving and at the end oh, watching the human struggle of trying to get over the line of something you really care about, that was great from Nakashima and he got the job done

53:50Matt Roberts: Unfortunately he is going to have to return to this tournament next year and it is going to be in Montreal which might be

53:57Catherine Whitaker: tough for him, sorry Toronto Sorry, Toronto.

54:00Matt Roberts: No, Montreal, no problem at all. He's won them over. He explained that he doesn't like. He explained multiple times in his speech. He just kept going. At first, I thought it was a nice little semi-joking quip to win over the crowd about how much he prefers Montreal to Toronto, which is still a risky thing to do, I'd say, but you know fine and he he kept saying it yeah it was and like no one asked him he just did it

54:36Catherine Whitaker: it was so random and out of the blue and he offered no explanation as to why but the thing is the thing with nakashima is that there's been no nakashima law to my knowledge like this is it now this is it now we now have a piece we now have a piece of Nacotima Law which I'm thrilled about it's nice to have something to go on for a player and I loved Shelton's reaction he was giggling through through the speech and then when it was his turn to speak he was like mate this is a terrible PR misstep

55:15Matt Roberts: but I am enjoying it I mean genuinely quite excited about what the reaction will be in Toronto next year. Will they remember? Because I really don't think that will have gone down very well. There's quite a rivalry, isn't there? Wanted to mention here that all four of the semi-finalists went to US College. Raphael Hodder and Brandon Akashima both went to Virginia. Virginia Tech? Is that what it's called? Matt Futterman will text me and let me know. Ben Shelton went to Florida and Leonard TN went to Southern California or Southern Cal. I don't know whether that's a nickname or its official name, but yeah, it's on the rise, isn't it?

56:01Matt Roberts: And I'm sure, you know, results like this from players that have taken that route will only boost the popularity of that route further. I think it's a great thing, you know, experience some life, experienced some personal human development. Absolutely. I want those two things to be possible at the same time. And it's obviously not going to be for everybody, but it proves that it is possible even at elite level.

56:36David Law: Yeah. I mean, I look at some of the players, some of the stars, like Nadal and Alcraz, now young they came along and had great results and i i wouldn't want to change that but there's a lot there are a lot of stories i wish i wish we could change from the past where players have played too young um and i just wonder how their lives and careers might have worked out had they not been 14 15 16 and become players i i just instinctively my my feeling is that it's a positive to to to do to do it this way i was talking to matt futterman this week and and he

57:16Catherine Whitaker: said he'd been talking to uh hodd's coach and how his his coach said apparently that like hodd worked really hard in in college and like was was getting really good grades like the kind of grades that you wouldn't normally do if you're going to immediately go and make it on the pro circuit It's almost like it's been a bit of a surprise to him how quickly it's come on the pro circuit as well. I think he was sort of planning to sort of show up for more than just a semester or two at college, you know. It sounded like he's been as surprised by this rise as maybe we have as well, which I thought was nice insight.

57:58Matt Roberts: in the doubles in Montreal Orlando Luth and Rafael Matos became the first all-Brazilian pair to win a Masters 1000 title they beat Marcelo Aravalo and Matej Pavic 5-7, 6-4, 10-6 in the final it's their third title of the season and it takes them into eighth in the race to Turin which is very much hotting up folks that is it for part two from us we will be back in part three to talk about cincinnati jack draper and injuries ai is only as powerful as the platform it's built into that's why it's no surprise that more than 85 percent of the 14 500 use the service now ai platform while other platforms duct tape tools together service now seamlessly unifies people data workflows and ai connecting every corner of your business.

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59:44Matt Roberts: Welcome back to part three of today's tennis podcast where Cincinnati is already underway. I think Rigo Dimitrov has just lost. if my live scores are accurate. In terms of the draw, we have a top half on the women's side that features the top seed, Irina Sabalenka, Barbora Krejcikova, Madison Keyes, Alina Svitolina, Coco Goff, Ivi Jovic, Marta Kostyuk, and Mira Andreeva. And down in the bottom half, we've got Linda Nozkova, Alexandra Eala, Amanda Anisimova, Jessica Begula, Iga Shontek, Maja Chvelinska, and Elena Rabakina. In the men's draw, the top half has top seed Alexander Zverev, Tommy Paul, Rafael Khoda, Flavio Caboli and his new hair, Novak Djokovic, Jakub Mensik, Arta Fice, Arta Ferry and Alex de Mino.

1:00:41Matt Roberts: And in the bottom half, Taylor Fritz, Joel Fonseca, Kasper Rude and his new hair, Daniel Medvedev, Ben Shelton, Lorenzo Mazzetti, Lerner Tien, Francis Tiafoe and Félix Auger Aliassime. Who has the worst hair out of Caspar Rood and Fravio Caballi? Who's made a bigger mistake with the machine there, do we think?

1:01:05Catherine Whitaker: I think Rood for sure.

1:01:09Matt Roberts: It's really bad, isn't it? I'm sure it's really practical. I don't think Caballi is that bad. Do you not? No. I mean, it's not politically and culturally insensitive, which is great.

1:01:23David Law: Because he just shaved it all off.

1:01:25Matt Roberts: Yeah.

1:01:26Catherine Whitaker: It's a bit, it's slightly longer than like the Alcaraz buzz was. Well, that was a clear mistake.

1:01:32Matt Roberts: I don't think he's that guy. Yeah, Caspar Rude is, it was a shock to the system to see that. Let's put it that way. More important question, who, men's and women's, is Cincinnati biggest for?

1:01:55Catherine Whitaker: I think on the men's side, I would say like all the guys who who were in that third is up for grabs conversation who who haven't grabbed it, I suppose, you know, like Medvedev, like Fritz did, you know, did well in Washington. so maybe not him, Tiafoe, Orjaliacine getting back to fitness. You know, these guys, I think if one of them could have a big week and win it, we might be talking about them in the same way we've just talked about Ben Shelton, for example, with an open, potentially US Open coming up, given the state of Sina and Alcarez. I also think it's interesting that Djokovic is playing for the first time in three years.

1:02:43Catherine Whitaker: He's talked about how his body felt good after Wimbledon. He said it was the best he's felt coming out of a Grand Slam in a long time. You've also got to think that he's thinking about the state of Sinnoh and Alcaraz and his eyes are widening and he's seeing another chance to potentially get 25. I think Cincinnati, a couple of matches for Djokovic, like a couple of wins and then getting out of there and getting ready for the US Open would be perfect. I don't think he really wants to fully scrap for six matches in the heat going into a Grand Slam. But if he could use Cincinnati to just brush off any rust and find his form and his timing and hit the ground running in New York, I think it could be big for him as well.

1:03:33Catherine Whitaker: And he was kind of outside of that third is up for grabs conversation because he sort of legacy is outside of that. But he's sort of part of it as well, I suppose. So it's all those guys, I think, on the men's side. It is an interesting tournament from that sense.

1:03:53Matt Roberts: He's in the top half of the draw. Djokovic has Tarante in his opening match. Tarante won through yesterday, didn't he? So, yeah, Tarante in Djokovic's opening match. David, who needs a big Cincinnati?

1:04:07David Law: Oh, I think Irina Sabalenka. I think she needs to just gain a little bit of confidence and feel and rhythm. She's usually so sure of herself, and for once she doesn't look that. and it's quite an unsettling thing to watch, let alone imagine how she's feeling about it. So, I mean, I still think she could not do well in Cincinnati, just win a couple of matches in New York and find it. She's good enough. But I think if she could really rediscover herself in Cincinnati, I think she could come out of there with that strut and with that stride And also just a little reminder to the rest of the locker room.

1:04:59David Law: By the way, I wasn't just talking about it at Wimbledon when I said, let's see if you can back it up. I meant it because I'm going to be coming for you.

1:05:10Matt Roberts: She's on the cover of Time magazine, isn't she? It's an incredible cover. And that's like a huge thing for her and for tennis to be on the cover of Time magazine. That's still, you know, even with the fading power of legacy media, that's still a big deal thing with a lot of cachet and a lot of heft. But it's slightly weird timing, isn't it? Because the results aren't resulting at the moment for Sabalenka. I mean, she's still totally deserving of that. She's the world number one tennis player. But it must, I don't know, you want that to be coming out at a time when you're at peak swagger on and off the court, I think.

1:05:54Matt Roberts: And it must just feel like slightly odd timing. But, you know, there's no bad time to be on the cover of Time magazine, I'd have thought. As we discussed, Cincinnati already underway. They've been very affected by the weather, by rain and thunderstorms. It's now incredibly hot and humid over there. First round matches have largely, I think, been played. Obviously, all the top seeds receiving buys through the opening round. We saw Jack Draper back in action following his loss to Terence Atman in the opening round in Montreal. This time we saw him up against Martin Lander-Luthe. And it was just as tough a watch as his match in Montreal.

1:06:45Matt Roberts: okay we didn't have the on-court tiers that we had in Montreal which were obviously so upsetting and arresting to see but what we had was a performance where he looked a shadow of his former self quite frankly he had led 5-2 in the second set and had six set points and ended up folding quite cheaply at the end of that match and losing it in straight sets and you might have seen and read some of the quotes from him afterwards. Tomani Carial of The Guardian and Matt Futterman of The Athletic were both there to speak to him afterwards. And the quotes are circulating, but we wanted to play the audio or some of the audio, quite frankly, because honestly, when we heard it, we decided it was quite difficult to convey what you hear in Jack Draper's voice in this audio.

1:07:41Matt Roberts: so we sought permission to play it we've got that permission and uh look it's a tough listen but here it is uh you know it's not not not my uh dna on the floor it's not who uh you know i want to be

1:07:56Catherine Whitaker: and it's the same last week the way i'm i'm usually able to um fight for the ball and conduct myself it's just missing and after last week I put in a lot of hard work to play a bit better this week obviously the conditions and all the things that I'm changing is very hard to manage but I think from just an internal point of view it's a difficult place to be right now my body isn't perfect my knee and my arm but that's You know, there is a part of it where I'm making changes, so that's difficult on the serve. And also with my racket set up and going for something completely different is hard to manage.

1:08:46Catherine Whitaker: But it's more, yeah, the emotional level that I'm able to bring isn't I. And it's, yeah, it's got to a point with me where, you know, it's taken probably one of my biggest qualities, which is you know my my fighting spirit what are you battling are you battling doubt or um concern about like further injury or no i mean obviously the the i think it's the fatigue and in my mind and my body from a long period of um setback and struggle and kind of isolation and just trying to get back all the time and I think the level of my you know the level of my fall almost from where I was last year and the amount of things I'm having to change in my tennis and yeah the mountain seems very big there's a level of chronic pain that's always with you that starts to go away but obviously the arm is linked to the elbow it's linked to bicep tendonitis, it's linked to so many nerves around that area so when you have an injury to that area the whole arm is kind of lit up it's like kind of getting like someone doing a blood what's it called, a blood pressure and your arm fist and when you've got that on your playing arm this is my life, this is my career it's tough enough as it is to play such an intense sport and the amount we have to give to it and when you've got an injury that is tough to come past and tough to understand there's many challenges, there's many obstacles for a normal person, they'd go and probably have six months off and you know it might it might recover and heal but truth is i'm i'm playing tennis and so it's not as simple as take time off and it's going to go because it doesn't i've tried it

1:11:12Matt Roberts: yeah i mean i think matt futterman kind of echoing what we'd all want to say to Jack off the back of hearing that, right? Like, hang in there somehow. It's such a tough listen, isn't it, David? Like, in some ways, it was a good listen in that it shed some light on the details of what's going on. It was quite tricky for us last week. We obviously wanted to talk about what we saw in Montreal, but didn't want to assume or presume too much. he's told us in quite a lot of detail there what's going on, mental, physical, the interaction of the two. He did also talk in that press conference. We didn't play it there, but Matt Futterman asked him, you know, what support do you have?

1:11:57Matt Roberts: Do you have a sports psychologist? And he said, yes, he did. And, you know, he does have lots of good people around him. But, you know, even with the best people around you, David, but there's some things that just fucking suck. And he's experiencing one of them right now.

1:12:20David Law: Yeah, yeah, it really makes me sad to listen to it. I listened to the whole thing last night and I don't think I've ever heard any player sound quite like that. There were bits of Alex Dimonor, I think, after Wimbledon that sounded like that, but obviously he's not dealing with something that he doesn't really have any answers to. I think he can play the sport. He might not get to his goals, but he can play the sport. Jack just can't even play the sport properly anymore. I mean, it makes me want to cry just listening to him, really. And he's such a lovely fellow, and it was only just over a year ago that he contacted us, and we spent quite a lot of time with him.

1:13:06and he was still so buoyant and determined

1:13:11David Law: as hard as the, you know, he'd have months out then but he was so determined, you know, and he was so convinced that he was going to get back and he was going to fulfil all of his ambitions and he just, he sounds so different to that now. I mean, I realise this was quite soon after a loss but it was such a similar kind of loss to the one the week before. He was subdued on the court at the end. He looked like he didn't know what to do, though he just didn't have the energy to fight anymore. And that's the thing. I've had mental health struggles of my own in my dream job at the ATP when I just couldn't quite cope or I couldn't quite do it.

1:13:55David Law: And I had to end up admitting defeat. And it was horrible. I mean, I came back and did the job, but I had to take time off. I had to sort of get away from that job and just allow myself to recover. And I don't know what he needs to do. I don't want to sit here and tell him what he should do. But I certainly don't. If he doesn't play the US Opener, if he doesn't try and qualify, I certainly don't judge him negatively in any way if he does that. I think that might be better for him to just try to release the drive for now. Just because it sounds like he can't take any more just at the moment. And that's okay, you know, given what he's put in and how little he's managed to get back for it.

1:14:47David Law: Whatever he decides to do, I wish him the best in the world. And if he decides to take some time out and eventually try and come back at the bottom and work his way back up and get enjoyment out of that, then great. You know, I know the responses. Vori's come on board and they've given him this big contract. And these things, they've got to not be the motivation. They can't be the reason. He's got to do whatever's best for him to feel better. Yeah.

1:15:29Matt Roberts: It must be so tough for him to even contemplate taking a break, though, because he's feeling like, well, I've had a year's enforced break. I've had a year sitting on the sidelines watching tennis happen without me. He's just sort of ravenous to get back there. But the reality of it is soul-destroying. You know, hearing him talk about his loss of identity, you know how the last year has eroded that is yes it's it's incredibly tough to hear

1:16:04Catherine Whitaker: yeah and you both used the word loss to describe how how he sounds and i think i think that's it like he's between this rock and a hard place because he's he's tried taking time off that didn't work and now he seems to actually be trying a bit of a different approach and talking about it a little bit differently in terms of not actually having rest and trying to make modifications and come back that way, different serve. He's hired a biomechanist who Arthur Ferry worked with and when he had his bone bruising, he's using a different racket, I believe not a Dunlop one. It's blacked out now, the one he's using, a more flexible racket, meant to be better for the arm.

1:16:47Catherine Whitaker: He's using a different string. He's trying all of these things. This seems to be his new approach. But the thing is as well, like, you know, he took that time off, but he didn't take six months off that would have got him the protected ranking. So that's gone as well. And it really would be if he does take the time off now, it really would be coming back from the very, very bottom, which might be the thing he has to do. but I can also understand why that doesn't sound very appealing. And all this tennis happening without him, it must just be really, really hard to take and accept. And yeah, I echo what you said, just really feel for him and hope he has the support he needs and can just get through this.

1:17:34Catherine Whitaker: It's horrible to see him going through it like this.

1:17:39Matt Roberts: and on the subject of injuries David David mentioned in the last show that he had contacted the ATP to see you know whether they had any official or background comment on what appears to be a trend in men's tennis we did have the professional tennis players association the PTPA this week putting out some data about injury trends off the back of all the withdrawals and injuries in Toronto now I don't know the sourcing on this and you take it with however much salt you you want to said that the work includes collection and analysis of injury data from more than 30 ,000 professional matches spanning the past eight years across all levels of the sport and they say the evidence is clear the season is too long recovery time is shrinking and injuries are occurring earlier and becoming more severe um 2025 is the first season with seven of the nine ATP masters 1000 formats expanded to 12 days um they say that upper body injuries are up 42 percent in the first quarter of 2026 arm injuries up 112 percent match ending injuries up 53 percent and re-injuries uh up 55 percent um and yeah look not taking all of that as definitive scientific fact but confirmation bias here that that does play into our perception and I think most people in the sports perception of a trend that it feels like is is occurring now David has been in touch with the ATP we've received the following official statement they say player health and well-being are fundamental priorities for the ATP and we recognize the concern when players are unable to compete through injury.

1:19:47Matt Roberts: Professional tennis is physically demanding and injuries are rarely attributable to a single factor. Every case has its own context shaped by factors including a player's medical and injury history, match and training, travel, surface transitions, recovery and playing conditions. The ATP's calendar and format reforms have been developed through extensive consultation with player and tournament representatives. Players have the flexibility to shape their own schedules while the calendar must serve the needs of the full player group from those consistently competing deep into tournaments to those playing fewer matches and seeking greater opportunities to compete.

1:20:22Matt Roberts: We continue to monitor trends across the tour and work closely with players, tournaments and medical experts to better understand and support player health and recovery. And David, you had a background chat with ATP as well to flesh out the bones of that quite sort of corporate statement, not unexpectedly so, but, yeah, what have you learned?

1:20:48David Law: Yeah, I mean, it's not surprising that the statement would sound like that and they would point to the fact that we've only been hearing this a couple of years, you know, we've got to give this a proper go and sort of see how it goes because this was, popular amongst a lot of players at the start because it brings money in you know it's at a time when a lot of people made the point of how difficult it is to to create a living unless you're ranked such and such this was a way to expand that field of players who could earn that living more players are getting to play these events um you know a lot of those players though have changed their mind and I think that that that's that can't be ignored Stefanos Tsitsipas was on the actual adverts for this thing at the start and he he now says I don't believe what I said initially I I it's not just about money I I don't I don't like this format um you know on the subject of injuries they would they would point they would have data they they point to data that say that more top players are playing these events than in the past.

1:22:05David Law: It doesn't feel like it, I have to say, and certainly these recent injuries feel very, very jarring, these top-end injuries.

1:22:14Matt Roberts: Is it the impression you get that they don't consider there to be a problem, a challenge that they need to address?

1:22:24David Law: They said in the statement itself, you know, injuries are caused by a lot of different things, and there isn't any kind of specific data that suggests there are more people not playing these events than before.

1:22:45David Law: But you're losing some of the very biggest names in the world at the moment. Now, not every injury is caused by the formats of the tour. you can't just put put every like a Holgeruner Achilles rupture and say oh it's because there are two week masters maybe they do factor in I don't know I mean I think one of the biggest problems is that these tournaments are really quite boring because they just drag on so you've taken away the USP of these events of being nicely

1:23:19Matt Roberts: is not the health and well being if it's all professional

1:23:23David Law: I mean, obviously, it's huge.

1:23:26Matt Roberts: No, no, I'm with you, David.

1:23:28David Law: I'm really bothered by this line in the statement about players can control their own schedules. Yeah. But isn't the idea that you want all the very best players in the world to compete at these events? And what you're actually saying, I mean, the bloody Canada tournament's finishing on a Thursday because you can't fit them all in. What the fuck is that?

1:23:54Matt Roberts: seriously yeah i mean reading between the lines of that state i mean not even really between the like reading you know just filtering for jargon they're saying there isn't a problem and if they're even if there were it's not our responsibility to solve it the players can do that themselves like that's pretty that's pretty alarming well tell you what we have seen i kind of understand

1:24:16David Law: why they can't just say right now after two years of it oh yeah we're gonna change back you can't there's too much too much gone into this though it's been all voted on and there's also loads of players i think that like it because they're the lower ranked ones who are getting loads more money right who need the money the top players don't need that money funny funny though given that they're now also boycotting media things at grand slams because they want more money anyway you know um that so that i can understand why they can't just knee jerk just change all this right they've got to give it a good go but Matt Futterman reported a while back in the athletic that he believes he understands that there is kind of a revision point after a I think about five years of this where something could be done if people want it to be done I haven't they say we're reviewing it I haven't had that confirmed but I what's wrong with saying

1:25:16Matt Roberts: we might have made a mistake. If Max reported that.

1:25:19David Law: Well, I think they've got to give it long enough, but I'm telling you, I'd be amazed if changes didn't happen because the market, the players, the tournaments, I think already after two years, people are not enjoying these and there are lots of downsides. You don't hear one top player anymore say, oh, I really like these two-week matches. nobody does it nobody so unless something changes in the next two or three years that is going to be just keeping on coming at them and may get worse i i think in the end i don't think it can change completely back but i think it'll it won't be like it is now that's my that's just my feeling i've got no source telling me that that's the case but that's my feeling

1:26:12Matt Roberts: I mean part of the problem here is I mean as always it's existential like the ATP represents the interests of parties that have completely conflicting agendas and interests you know tournaments and players have conflicting interests and agendas top ranked players and lower ranked players completely different priorities agendas as you say David There are lots of players out there who I'm sure think two-week masters are brilliant because they wouldn't have even been playing in them two years ago. Now they're playing in them and picking up their paychecks and the exposure accordingly. We're not hearing from them, though, because they've got no platform.

1:26:54Matt Roberts: No one cares what they have to say. And that's not to say that their opinions don't have value and aren't valid, but what Yannick Sinner has to say about it is obviously going to carry a lot more weight, both with the public and with the authorities. But existentially, it's just all so fucked. It's just not possible. Somehow there are seven governing bodies in the sport and yet the ATP and others still have these tremendous, unresolvable conflicts at their heart. they both conflict with one another and they have sort of civil warfare of conflicting within themselves. It just...

1:27:49Matt Roberts: It's very tiring.

1:27:52David Law: That's well said.

1:27:56Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, look, I don't have much to add really. like there's there's so many there's so many parts of it of what could be causing injuries like there's so many different things that come into play like even even to the point of like i watch because i always do this i watch highlights of the big three playing and honestly like some of those some of those rallies are starting to look a bit slow to me if i watch like nadal and djokovic and then i'll put on the cine alcaraz highlights and i'm like oh i never thought at the time that djokovic nadal was slow it was like the best it could possibly be but maybe that was like what it that was as far as we could push the sport and the technology and everything and now we're hitting the ball harder but we're still expected to play as many matches as we used to play the tournaments are longer the balls are worse the the the world's getting hotter the conditions are harder to play in and all of these things have come together to produce an environment that yes we're sort of no one's thinking of the big picture like that you're putting you're putting plasters over one thing and but not looking at it as a big picture and that that to me is the frustration that i have from that that kind of statement from the atp they should be they should care for the sport yeah and i i just sort of feel like not enough for the governing bodies like you you can't really get the sense that they massively do they care about themselves and that it's tough there are those competing interests which you've laid out well but yeah it feels like such a long way to to get to where we want to get um but we plough on until this potential revision deadline in the ATP Masters 1000 contract and then see where we are.

1:30:00Matt Roberts: 2028?

1:30:03David Law: 2029 I think would be the five year point

1:30:07Matt Roberts: based on match reporting. God. Well, 2028 is an Olympic. 2028, we've got the Olympics starting two days after Wimbledon. If that doesn't break the sport.

1:30:22David Law: Slop Canada into that then.

1:30:25Matt Roberts: What day of the week will the Canada finals be on in 2028? Sweepstake.

1:30:31David Law: Canada will start on middle Sunday at Wimbledon.

1:30:36Matt Roberts: Okay, folks, let's call it a day for now. We'll be back on Monday with our next pod to talk about what's happened over the weekend in Cincinnati and any other existential drama that tennis throws at us in the meantime. We have a mascot for today's show. What a name. I mean, what a dog, but what a name. This is Songbird. Songbird is owned by Barbara Courtney and rescued from the streets of Taipei nine years ago and flew to San Francisco to become a California girl. She's an indigenous Farmerzan mountain dog. Farmerzan. Gosh, a new dog breed. What a treat. An indigenous Farmerzan mountain dog, meaning she is super agile and smart.

1:31:31Matt Roberts: Songbird loved tennis balls from the first introduction, but she's also quite the snuggler. Well, that's the dream combo. So snuggler plus loves chasing tennis balls. Wow. Gosh, she's like a perfectly formed dog. Like look up dog in the dictionary. There she is. I can tell she's smart. Oh, gosh. Rescued from the streets of Taipei and flown to San Francisco. What a glamorous origin story for Songbird. Absolutely amazing. Thank you, Barbara, for bringing Songbird into our lives and onto today's show. Hello to our mascots. Hello, Bodhi, Maisie and Roger. Hello to our top folks and executive producers, Greg, Chris and Jeff.

1:32:21Matt Roberts: And we'll go to Matt for some shout outs.

1:32:25Catherine Whitaker: Just hearing that Songbird likes to chase balls and snuggle reminded me that Elway had no interest in chasing the tennis balls that Egos Fiontech was throwing for her and just wanted belly rubs. I really enjoyed that.

1:32:41Matt Roberts: I think Elway is of an age where I suspect there was a time when Elway did enjoy chasing tennis balls, but that time is no longer now. There was a great moment when he was like, no, I'll decide when the belly rubs are over. Which it was very Billie Jean-like. She's like, excuse me. More? We're not done here. yes Matt sorry shout outs first shout out is to Elway

1:33:09Catherine Whitaker: of course yeah and second shout out is for Catherine Koyser oh hello Catherine same pew same pew let's face it it is the best pew right from Catherine would also like to shout out her tennis team from Creekside in Mount Pleasant South Carolina and also wants to let us know that she went to Wimbledon this year with her husband.

1:33:41Matt Roberts: Oh, Catherine. Creekside in Mount Pleasant. That makes me think of Dawson's Creek, which is the place of my childhood dreams. And I think they filmed that in South Carolina, actually. I don't know why I'm saying I think I absolutely know they filmed that in South Carolina because I definitely tried to plan a trip there with a friend. Never quite happened. Didn't happen then, no. No, couldn't persuade the family to go on a pilgrimage, a Dawson's Creek pilgrimage to South Carolina. Still time. But that sounds lovely, Catherine, and what a name you have. Hope you enjoyed Wimbledon.

1:34:33Catherine Whitaker: We've also got Adam Booth, who is originally from Manchester, but has been living in Australia for the last 20 years. Now in Newcastle, New South Wales.

1:34:47Matt Roberts: Hello, Adam.

1:34:51David Law: Like Adam Helfand, the former ATP chief executive.

1:34:58Matt Roberts: Adam Pavlasek as well. Correct. who's always sort of unexpectedly Adam to me. It's always a surprise that he's called Adam.

1:35:10Catherine Whitaker: Adam Walton, the sensation.

1:35:14Matt Roberts: Not to be confused with Darren Walton. We're not to be confused with him again.

1:35:21David Law: Who's a tennis journalist from Australia, one of our colleagues and a great bloke.

1:35:29Matt Roberts: He sends a good email to Darren. Anyway, he's been on the pod.

1:35:37David Law: Yes. Yeah. For friends. Good stuff. Yeah.

1:35:42Matt Roberts: Yeah. What else do we know about this, Adam?

1:35:45Catherine Whitaker: Adam has written a lot of very lovely things about the pod, which is too embarrassing to read out. Oh, no, it's fine. But know that we've seen and read and loved and appreciated Adam. Adam says he's been listening since the student mat days. Oh, those are a long time ago.

1:36:08Matt Roberts: He's a homeowner now, Adam.

1:36:14Catherine Whitaker: And one thing Adam does say, which is very nice, is that he thanks us for speaking out on important issues in the tennis world. He says, I learn a lot from you all, in particular when I talk to my nine-year-old son and 11-year-old daughter about sexism and the patriarchy, which comes up surprisingly often, Adam says on the school run. I often hear Catherine's voice in my head as I think about what to tell them. Your voices are important and valued. Never stop.

1:36:41Matt Roberts: That's really lovely, Adam. Thank you. Appreciate that. Anyone else?

1:36:48Catherine Whitaker: Finally, we have Ted Eckers from Minneapolis, Minnesota. Hello, Ted. Ted Perry, he says.

1:36:58Matt Roberts: Right, Ted. I thought we were going tindling. Ted Perry's around here somewhere. Keep telling us about Ted and I'll grab Perry.

1:37:10Catherine Whitaker: Ted, we have a very appropriate shout out this week because Ted is going to Cincinnati. He says, I'm bringing the rest of my family to their first tennis tournament in Cincinnati because it's conveniently on the way to drop our son off for his first year of college in Ohio.

1:37:28David Law: That's not Ted. Oh, there's Ted.

1:37:31Matt Roberts: All right, Billy Jean.

1:37:31Catherine Whitaker: Kevin's returned with Billy Jean.

1:37:34Matt Roberts: And Ted. Aw. What a duo. Sort of the same size.

1:37:39Catherine Whitaker: It's a great duo.

1:37:41David Law: This is where anybody who hasn't hung around for the shout outs then regrets it When they find out that Billie Jean was on.

1:37:50Matt Roberts: It's like movies that put a scene at the end of the credits, isn't it? Correct. Like Ferris Bueller's Day Off.

1:38:02Catherine Whitaker: Thanks for being a friend, Ted. You find quite annoying when that happens.

1:38:08Matt Roberts: Well, we're doing it, so we're at the point. So you've been called annoying, Catherine.

1:38:12Catherine Whitaker: It'd be like doing it after the music. right okay yeah i expect we'll be listening to the shout out do you remember when we did that when that other dog was it magnus pooed everywhere do you remember that's billy jean's brother you're talking about well i know but it's true isn't it did he poo live on the show i think it was during i think it was when we were doing like pandemic pods like windward and relived or something it was around that sort of time yeah on the daily yeah

1:38:51Matt Roberts: i think so too it was july july 2020 that magnus came to stay with me and other than that there we go without that glorious week with magnus i probably wouldn't have Billie Jean now.

1:39:06David Law: Cheers, Magnus.

1:39:09Matt Roberts: Thank you, Ted, for allowing me to take that trip down memory lane. Thank you, Ted, Adam and Catherine for being friends of the Tennis Podcast. If you'd like to become a friend of the Tennis Podcast and get access to all of our bonus content and free listening, and of course, that upcoming incredibly niche episode of tennis relived which we are very excited about then the link is in our show notes folks that's it for today except for me to say happy birthday dad i'll see you tomorrow uh he stays till the end of the show he never misses a billy jean cameo uh so happy birthday dad uh i'll see you tomorrow you will see all of us on monday when we'll be back with our next pod we are part of the athletic podcast network thank you for listening thank you for joining us live tonight if you did do that and we'll speak to you Monday.

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