Davis Cup - Italy vs. Spain final; Who needs Sinneraz?

0:00David Law: As a small business owner, you're the CEO, the marketing team, and the customer service rep all at once. I was recently talking to a shop owner who told me their worst nightmare isn't a slow day, it's the vanishing act. It's that moment you're inches away from a deadline and the Wi-Fi just disappears. We've all felt that pit in our stomach when the connection flares up right when it matters most. Your business is only as strong as your connection. AT &T Business is the reliable provider built for that exact brand of hustle. so you can stay focused on the work that builds your legacy. Powered by AT &T Business.

0:34David Law: Built to work. Get AT &T Business at business.att.com.

0:42Matt Roberts: AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into. That's why it's no surprise that more than 85 % of the Fortune 500 use the ServiceNow AI platform. While other platforms duct tape tools together, ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data, workflows and AI connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters most. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people at servicenow.com.

1:27Matt Roberts: Hello and welcome to the Tennis Podcast. It is Saturday night and we come to you on the eve of the final day of the 2025 tennis season. A day that will see a Davis Cup final between Spain and Italy. It's Cineras without Yannick Ciner or Carlos Alcaraz. and that is a pretty fascinating prospect. David and I are here battling the onset of British winter. Our struggle is very real, David.

1:59David Law: Yes, yes. I've been coaching my son's football match today, which was abandoned in the freezing cold and rain because it was unplayable. So that was lovely. And yet I have been warmed up by what I've seen in this David's Cup. It is bizarre to have this line-up for the final without the two people that we expected to be talking about in it. But even though that may reduce the number of headlines, it's meant that the storylines have been perhaps more fun and more fascinating. The actual matches themselves, the unknowns, it's been great, actually.

2:39Matt Roberts: Yeah, a scale of 1 to 10, Matt, in the 48 hours since we were last podcasting, how much fun have you had out there in Bologna?

2:48Catherine Whitaker: It's been so much fun. I'm not going to lie. I think yesterday we were at a 10 during the Caballi-Bergs tie break, which I'm sure we're going to talk all about. And then today didn't quite hit those heights, but still a very, very intriguing, fun tie between Spain and Germany. And, yeah, I've been ruminating a lot on the whole Alcaraz-Sinna of it all because, you know, that is the ultimate in men's tennis right now, Alcaraz-Sinna. And I'm not going to lie, I think I would be even more excited about tomorrow were we to have Sinna and Alcaraz here. but I do think the fact that they've not been here has made the rest of the tournament up to that point a bit more intriguing and interesting and open.

3:44Catherine Whitaker: I think the fact that they both weren't here probably ended up sort of balancing it out in the end and meaning that we didn't end up with like one super team. So, yeah, it has been a really, really fascinating tournament. I'm not saying men's tennis is better without Carlos Alcarez and Yannick Sinner, but it has given a different sort of fresh feel to the event. And do I wish they were here tomorrow? Yes. But I still think it's going to be a very, very intriguing final. And I'm kind of invested in these players now, you know, and I want to see their stories complete and play out tomorrow.

4:23Matt Roberts: Yeah, it's weird, isn't it? Like, let's not pretend we wouldn't be extra hype if it was Alcaraz Sinner happening tomorrow with the slightly different complexion of them playing for their countries and for the Davis Cup. And yet there is genuinely a part of me that's like, well, there is only one story in men's tennis outside of the Davis Cup, and that is Alcaraz and Sinner. And I'm not remotely relieved that we're not getting it, but I'm excited by the prospect of properly being invested in something different. Because, yes, I know there are other stories in men's tennis, I'm exaggerating, but they're just not as interesting or as gripping.

5:08Matt Roberts: Or, you know, Felix Orgelia Seam against Alex de Menor, I'm afraid, doesn't get my juices flowing, particularly. But Pablo Carreño Busta against Matteo Berrettini in the Davis Cup final in the year 2025. Side me up, David. I'm all in on that. I've always said I thought Pablo Carreño Busta was a great pick.

5:30David Law: I was going to say, is it fair to say a week ago, maybe if I'd have told you that, you maybe wouldn't have been that into it. But the way it's played out, it feels different to how one expected.

5:42Matt Roberts: Look, the way it's played out has definitely helped. for sure. But I also, I think, would have known a week ago that regardless of the scenario, team competitions do get you invested in things that you wouldn't otherwise be. And that is the beauty of them.

6:00David Law: Yeah, no, I agree with that. I think the one thing I would love to have seen more than Sinner against Alcraz is Sinner against Alcraz in the doubles. I would have loved to have seen that for a deciding match. But look, But that's just curiosity as much as anything, because actually, I think it would have meant a heck of a lot to those two if they'd been in it. And I mean, you can see how invested Alcraz is by the posts he's putting out there. But to watch these guys the last two days, this is the biggest thing in their years. I think if you ask them at the end of this whoever wins you could ask Cabala you could ask Berrettini you could ask Pablo Carrena Busta you could ask Jami Munar and the doubles guys this would be the biggest match of their year and that's a great feeling on the eve of it it makes me care all the more I think Davis Cup regardless of the format and I think there is still a lot to kind of try to ruminate on and work out what's the best way forward for the competition.

7:12David Law: I think that there are people in charge. Ross Hutchins has come into the ITF, I think. All these people, they still know they've got stuff to think about, talk about, work out. But my God, the magic of it is still there. It's still there. It may not be perfect, but there's nothing quite like it in the sport.

7:31Matt Roberts: And it's caring, I think, for me anyway, that largely I will carry forth into the rest of my watching of men's tennis. Like, I am invested in Flavio Caballi now. The Davis Cup has brought something out of him that I previously was not aware of. Maybe he wasn't aware of it. Maybe only David Law has been aware of it up until now. Just like, you know, the ATP finals did in Lorenzo Mazzetti. I'm more invested in him than I was before that tournament and his nightmare quest to reach said tournament. But yeah, I can wait no longer, Matt, before we talk about Flavio Caballi. We are all Flavio Caballi guys now.

8:18Matt Roberts: What a guy. What a guy. Talk us through his victory over Zizu Berg's yesterday, saving seven match points along the way, winning it. The match and the tie for Italy on his seventh match point, 6-3, 6-7, 7-6 over a just devastated Zizou Berg. Caballi comforted him afterwards. His dad has done a heartfelt social media post today about how proud he is of him. It was, God, it was everything, this match yesterday. And you got to be there.

8:57Catherine Whitaker: And I hope I'm not saying something that I shouldn't be saying here, but I know that the Davis Cup social media team have got in touch with Zizou Berg's dad. And he's agreed to voice a video about that match and how he felt for Zizou Berg's and kind of, I think, maybe read out what he wrote on social media. Like he seems like a real good Zizou Berg's dad in a world, in a sport of tennis where we're often sort of wondering about tennis parents. I do think Zizou Berg's dad might be a good one. And he's certainly raised a pretty special kid as well. As much as I'm a Flavio Caballi guy, I think I might be a Zizou Berg's guy as well.

9:48Catherine Whitaker: That was sensational yesterday. day. I have been extremely lucky this year to have had some of the best tennis watching experiences I've ever had this season. You know, right back in the start of the year with Madison Keys in Australia, of course, the Sinner as Roland Garros final, and then, you know, the Grand Slam summer of Amanda Nisamova. Like, these were all incredible experiences I've had. And And this was up there. This was up there with them yesterday. Kabali and Berg's in the Davis Cup, a 17-15 final set tie break. And the press seats here, which I sort of moaned about the other day, actually sort of came into their own here because they are right in the thick of it.

10:38Catherine Whitaker: You know, there's that they're not stewarded. There's fans in the press seats. And, you know, most of the time that's quite annoying. But on this occasion, it was actually awesome because there was people jumping up, living every single moment, you know, moaning mid rally when they think the ball's going to go out and suddenly realizing that it's in and having to having to change their mind and suddenly realize, oh, no, Kabbali is still in this rally. And just things like that, which just added to the feel and the drama of being in the stadium. I was also tasked by the Davis Cup social media team who knew I was in the press seats to try and film match point.

11:20Catherine Whitaker: You know, I said, fine, that's an absolutely OK task. That is something that I can do. I can film match point. Of course, 13 match points were saved in this match. So my phone is just filled with unusable clips of about 10 seconds long of one match point after another coming and going. And it was just absolutely peak tennis because both players were a bit fallible. Sometimes they were missing in a dramatic way. You know, Bergs was very tight on his two match points that he had on the forehand right at the start of the tie break. but they were also conjuring up magic at times as well on those biggest points.

12:02Catherine Whitaker: There was an incredible Caballi defensive shot that ended up with him hitting a smash to save a match point. Burgs hit a forehand volley at full stretch to save a match point. And you had these two things going on. Is the next point going to be brilliant? Is it going to be an error? You just did not know. And the tension was mounting up and up. The crowd was in an absolute frenzy. frenzy. Caballi was whipping them up. You know, Caballi is one of the guys that an Italian crowd can really connect with. And he and he gets that. And it was just the most incredible, incredible theatre. You had absolutely no idea which way it was going to go.

12:42Catherine Whitaker: And I felt very, very lucky to be in the stadium. I loved it.

12:48Matt Roberts: Okay, I've got FOMO now.

12:49Catherine Whitaker: You're quite giddy.

12:53Matt Roberts: Yeah, I've got retrospective FOMO. And I'm also preparing myself to cry at whatever this video is that the Davis Cup social media team are lining up for tomorrow. David, your experience of watching that extraordinary drama?

13:12David Law: Well, I was thinking back to how our year with Zizu Berg started with him knocking out Christian Green. in that changeover match when he was running from one side to the other. You know, accidental, but for my word, dramatic. But he has been one of the players of the Davis Cup finals, really, hasn't he? I was talking the other day when he beat Artur Rindiknish about what a compact game he seems to have, that he can rely on it from the baseline. In this match, at some point, you actually had to hit out and really go for your shots. And what I loved about these two is that they were both going for it.

13:51David Law: They were both, I mean, they were battling their nerves, as you say, and there were moments where they're just, you know, they can't breathe for the errors that they're making in their anxiety. But they were still trying to win it. They weren't just extending rallies, which I, listen, that's an absolutely legitimate way to win. And if you can pull it off, good for you. but my favourite type of player is the one that tries to win it on their own racket. And these two were just grunting for all they're worth when they're hitting the ball and they're so fast around the court.

14:27Matt Roberts: Did they both develop new grunts over the course of this match?

14:31David Law: Yes, there was some comical Zizou Baird. Sounded like the Rublev grunt. Yes. And look, I understand that they're just throwing heart and soul into these ground strokes and they're just trying to get that last little drop out of themselves. But they're both so fast and so dexterous that they were getting to balls that were just absurd, really, and extending rallies. It was wonderful. Honestly, I mean, at the start of the tiebreak, I thought Berg's would win it, the way he'd started it, the way he just looked maybe a little more composed. And then his body language was very convincing. Yeah, then he got into the winning position.

15:13David Law: He started to miss a couple that I don't think he's missing earlier on. And equally, Caballi's hitting out, saving some of them as well. It was magical stuff, really. And I started to, I think, well, how's this tiebreaker ever going to end? Because they're so evenly matched. I mean, 17-15 tells you the answer. And then I started to really worry for the one who didn't win. And I was trying to think, who do I actually want to win? Because I am a Caballi guy, and I do love Italy. in Italy, obviously, but I've also really got into Belgium and just didn't seem fair for one of them to have to lose this match.

15:52David Law: But great, great sport, just fantastic sporting drama.

15:57Matt Roberts: Yeah, I usually absolutely loathe the cliché, oh, that, you know, there are no losers here or nobody deserved to lose this match. This is sport. Somebody always deserves to lose. sorry if that's brutal but you know that is sport but I will make an exception here like it just it felt like you know that really was kind of just the toss of a coin an arbitrary you know decision from the gods that somebody had to lose that match and I was gutted for Berg's but my goodness me the incredible Hulk like scenes from Flavio Caballi just for you, David. And it wasn't an accident. It turns out, well, not accident, maybe coincidence, it was an intentional Hulk reference, Matt.

16:48Matt Roberts: Tell us everything.

16:50Catherine Whitaker: Yes, he was asked about his shirt-ripping moment, which is obviously made for some, you know, fantastic front pages of sports newspapers here in Italy today. he was asked about those scenes in the in the press conference and he was actually asked whether it was um you know he's he's he's been very clear that like novak jokovic is his favorite player and kind of his idol and was it a sort of was novak jokovic in his mind when when he did that and he said no i wanted to be like ulk he said he said he said i've been doing gym every day he was very pleased about that he's very pleased with the way he looks and uh yeah it was it sort of added it was added to the moment i think what was your reaction to him saying i've been doing gym every day because bless him mine was but i sort of assumed that was that was the job like aren't

17:52Matt Roberts: aren't all of you doing gym every day like maybe they're not i don't know maybe that maybe that's naive of me but well he is now anyway and it's it's it's working in all the ways it's working for Flavio Caballi what else did we learn about Flavio Caballi yesterday Matt is it is it overblown is it too kind of caught up in the moment to ask whether that match in that moment could alter the trajectory of Flavio Caballi's career. That's what it felt like in the moment. It was so all-consuming. It was like, this can change a person. It feels like it's changing me. Imagine what it's doing to him.

18:37Catherine Whitaker: I mean, I think what's interesting here is that he's got another match to play and he's going to have to beat Jean-Mamouna tomorrow. and actually Munar has been one of the most impressive players here, I would say, this week as well. He was absolutely excellent to beat Lehekshka and he did that thing today that quite a lot of players do of really going toe-to-toe with Zverev and playing just as well as him and impressing a lot of moments but just not quite able to win the biggest moments. You know, that's part of the reason why Zverev's got himself to world number three. Well, he's built higher than that, hasn't he?

19:19Catherine Whitaker: But he currently sits at world number three. But anyway, what I'm saying is Jaume Munar has been very impressive. And it's possible, I think, that Kabbali's Davis Cup experience this week still ends on a loss. Because I don't think it's a given at all that he beats Munar tomorrow. Because Munar has been really, really good. So then it's kind of like, how do you just take what we saw yesterday? But I think he can, right? I think he had to stand up and deliver in front of an expectant crowd of 10 ,000, and he did. And we have seen people have those sorts of experiences before and transfer it. But on the other hand, we have seen people only do this sort of thing in Davis Cup before.

20:04Catherine Whitaker: And that was something Berg spoke about. He said this match more or less did feel like a unique Davis Cup experience. You know, that home and away element. Collignon had been quite interesting, saying how he really struggled to enjoy the occasion. He really struggled with it and saying he felt the pressure of the crowd. He couldn't feel like he played his best. So I put it to Bergs. Were you able to enjoy it? And he said, yes, I was like I absolutely was. I did embrace it. I felt like I could express myself tennis wise, but it felt different. I knew it was different. I knew it was Davis Cup. He said, and kind of everyone was talking about this, really, that sort of match doesn't really happen necessarily on the tour.

20:47Catherine Whitaker: And how can Kabali replicate that experience with all of those people pushing him and getting that extra out of him on the tour? It's incredibly hard. So I hope he can take what he showed and bring some real fangs to the tour next year because he's such an electric guy to watch when he plays well. But I don't know whether we'll see that specific Caballi again because it was just so unique, I think.

21:19Matt Roberts: Maybe he'll keep going to the gym, though.

21:22Catherine Whitaker: Oh, he's definitely going to do that.

21:25David Law: If you consider just what a terrible start to the year he had and what a funk he was in, he was really in a low place. I mean, he's actually rebuilt his year very well, even despite this. And he's ended up having a good year. And I do think that this can be a springboard for him for next year. You know, he can come out the blocks next year with his new gym body and, you know, he's no points to defend. and, well, maybe a Davis Cup title under his belt. And I do think there is a top-level player in there, you know, certainly a top-ten player, I think, Caballi has the capability of being. But, you know, I know you spent time with him, Matt, in the press conference there, and him and Berrettini are very close, aren't they?

22:16David Law: And obviously Berrettini's been a huge part of this team as well. but also as like a big brother figure to Caballi.

22:23Catherine Whitaker: Yes. I discovered a video yesterday when I was on tennis Reddit of Matteo Berrettini and Flavio Caballi as kids. And I hadn't quite realised, to be honest, that their connection went back so long. And it's such a sweet video. You've got Berrettini, who's a teenager at the time, I mean, he's about 14 or 15 in this video. And Caballi's, you know, eight or nine years old. You know, kind of like he does still. Berrettini absolutely towers over Flavio Caballi in this video. And he's a sort of literal big brother figure. And Caballi's sort of munching on a snack and is quite sort of sweet. You know, Berrettini's sort of giving an interview to whoever's filming this video.

23:16Catherine Whitaker: It's very, very sweet. So I realized that there was a connection there that that goes way back. And I asked Berrettini about it and he just gave the loveliest answer about how much he cares for Flavio Caballi. And he basically sort of told me their origin story, which was that he went to this club in Rome when he was a teenager. And that's where Caballi trained and Caballi's father, Stefano, was coaching there. and they would put on these tournaments and that's where this video stems from. And Berrettini said it's crazy to think about the time that's passed and now they're in a team together. And he actually mentioned what you just mentioned, David, about earlier this season when Caballi was in a funk and couldn't win matches.

24:07Catherine Whitaker: And Berrettini said he spoke to him after Miami and Caballi was planning to go and play a challenger to try and get some wins. and Berrettini put his arm around him and said, you don't need to do that. Your level is there. Train for a couple of weeks. Things are going to come. Don't worry about it. And then Caballi went and won Bucharest and kind of his season was off from that. But Berrettini really spoke quite wisely, I think, about the kind of advice he tries to give to young players in terms of not trying to rush everything and hope it all comes quickly. You know, sometimes you've got to take your time and believe in yourself.

24:47Catherine Whitaker: And he said he liked to get advice from older players when he was younger. And now he sees it as his role to sort of hand out that advice. And he just believes in Caballi's talent and his game. And he said, I told him, don't you worry, child, which was just just so sweet. And, you know, I think that was a big moment in Caballi's season, having Berrettini there speak to him and back him. And now here they are, all those years later, being the two singles players together for Italy without Sinner and without Mazzetti, trying to win the Davis Cup. It's pretty, pretty magical. You know, it's kind of a reminder that, yes, the Davis Cup is mostly about playing for your country.

25:31Catherine Whitaker: But also those relationships within a team can be extremely important. And here is Berrettini and Caballi kind of really playing for each other. And yeah, it's incredibly special. None of these players would have been anything other than thrilled

25:51Matt Roberts: if Yannick Sinner had put his hand up and been playing for Italy in these finals. And yet, experientially, there probably is something different and potentially more special or certainly special in a different way about him not being there and then not being a superstar of that magnitude on this team. I mean, and let's not forget, I mean, you've both said it, but Lorenzo Mazzetti isn't there either. Like, neither Berrettini nor Caboli would be playing, most likely, if all of Italy's players had put their hand up and shown up for this tie. Like, that's wild to think that these two would just have been there being Lorenzo Sarnago in the background.

26:35Matt Roberts: And look, he does great clapping, does Sonogo. And he seems like a great vibe. And what I love is somebody in that role that doesn't seem chippy about being in that role. You know, Sonogo seems fine with it and bless him. But like, up until three weeks ago, these two thought that that was their destiny, most likely in this team, to be cheerleaders. and they're potentially going to do something for Italy and for themselves that is totally career-defining in a way that it wouldn't have been if they'd done it with Yannick Sinner in the team. I mean, they have already done it with Yannick Sinner in the team, but this is different.

27:21And if they do it, it'll probably be better.

27:25David Law: Yeah, more special. I think that's fair. I think that's true. I agree with you. Yeah, it's a heck of a few weeks for Italy when you think of it in those terms, if they actually pull this off, that, you know, Sin has gone and won everything. And then Mazzetti's had his big moment at the HV finals and his big qualification. And obviously the women have won the Billie Jean King Cup. And now these two come along.

27:52Matt Roberts: Crazy.

27:53David Law: And Vavasori. Vavasori Irani.

27:57Matt Roberts: Yeah, mixed doubles champions at the US Open, David. How can you forget?

28:00Catherine Whitaker: An official Grand Slam tournament. Reimagined. On the bloody roll of honour and everything.

28:05Matt Roberts: Do we have anything more to say about that first match in this tie? Berrettini beating Collignon 6-3, 6-4. I mean, you mentioned it there, Matt, with Collignon's post-match comments that kind of summed it up. He was not the guy that we'd seen in the quarterfinals in this match. Not by a long shot, really.

28:29Catherine Whitaker: No, although he did start slowly in the quarterfinals as well, against Mute. I think he was struggling a little bit there as well, but grew into it. He found it easier to grow into it in the quarterfinals, Whereas I think just the cacophony of noise made it harder to do that in the semifinals. It's quite interesting because he had been the guy for Belgium to get them to the final eight. It was him who scored the two singles wins, including upsetting Alex Dimenor in Australia to get them here. And I think also that was why I was speaking to a Belgian journalist and she was telling me, I think that was part of the reason why Burgs was so crushed as well.

29:13Catherine Whitaker: in that he's the higher ranked of the two. And I think he wanted it to be kind of his moment as well, you know, like him to be the hero, whereas Collignon had been the hero before. I think he sort of was desperate for that moment for himself, obviously for the team as well. I guess the only other thing I would add is that I thought Berrettini looked a lot better in this one than he had in the quarterfinal. I thought he looked fitter. I thought his forehand was absolutely firing and he was using his slice to good effect as well He looked like 2021 Berrettini, didn't he?

29:50Matt Roberts: It was a roll-back-the-years performance Made me misty-eyed

29:56Catherine Whitaker: He gave an answer in press about how his slice got so good and he sort of laughed and said well, it's when I was injured, when I was younger I couldn't hit a two-handed backhand because I had a left wrist injury. So my coach just said, OK, well, let's just work on your slice then in this time when you can't play. And he really developed it and made it a weapon. And yeah, he had that blend going on and he used the crowd extremely well, I thought, and they all got behind him. So I had some real doubts about Berrettini coming into this event. Even after that first match, I wasn't convinced, but I thought he was excellent here.

30:33Catherine Whitaker: And yeah, I suppose that was probably my big takeaway away from an Italian perspective on that first match.

30:40Matt Roberts: Bodes well, doesn't it, for the final for Matteo Berrettini. And we will look ahead to that final and talk about the other semi-final that's just wrapped up between Spain and Germany in part two.

30:54David Law: Today's show is brought to you by Vanguard. To all the financial advisors listening, let's talk bonds for a minute. Capturing value in fixed income isn't easy. Bond markets are massive, murky, and let's be real. Lots of firms throw a couple of flashy funds your way and call it a day, but not Vanguard. Vanguard bonds are institutional quality. Institutional quality isn't a tagline. It's a commitment to your clients. It means top-grade products across the board. Vanguard's been in the game a long time, and their scale gives them a serious edge. They're able to invest across all kinds of sectors, maturities and geographies, which means they can spot and act on opportunities that others might miss.

31:38David Law: So if you're looking to give your clients consistent results year in and year out, go see the record for yourself at vanguard.com forward slash audio. That's vanguard.com forward slash audio. All investing is subject to risk. Vanguard Marketing Corporation Distributor.

31:58Catherine Whitaker: Hey guys, it's Joe. It's Kevin. And this is Nick Jonas from Hey Jonas. Do you remember growing up when it felt like every teacher had a favorite student? Everybody knew who it was. Well, I was homeschooled, so I like to think it was me. A class of one. Congratulations. But we're not here to talk about favorite students. We want to talk about a teacher's real favorite. Kleenex tissues. According to TeacherList, Kleenex is the number one facial tissue brand trusted by teachers. Kleenex ultra soft tissues are silky soft to help prevent skin irritation. And now you can take them anywhere with Kleenex Snap and Go.

32:29Catherine Whitaker: Between dance, soccer, school events, and everything else kids have going on after school, Kleenex Snap and Go is easy to take along. It fits in backpacks, sports bags, or even in the car. So it's ready for whatever comes next. So do the best thing for your kids and teachers. Stock up on the ultimate classroom favorite. Maybe you'll even become the teacher's favorite parent. We still haven't settled who would be the favorite in our school. We haven't settled who the favorite brother is either. For whatever happens next, grab Kleenex. Hi all, this is Kim and Penn Holderness from Lifeline.

32:57David Law: Summer is here, which means it's officially travel season.

33:00Catherine Whitaker: And when you're out there making plans, you need somewhere reliable to stay.

33:04David Law: That's why Best Western is such a solid option.

33:06Catherine Whitaker: This summer, get 1 ,000 bonus points and a chance to win 250 ,000 bonus points.

33:11David Law: So wherever you're headed, make it count with this limited time offer.

33:14Catherine Whitaker: Life's a trip. Make the most of it at BestWestern.com.

33:17David Law: No additional purchase necessary for sweeps. See bonus points, T's and C's and sweeps rules for details and visit BestWestern.com for complete terms and conditions.

33:28Matt Roberts: Welcome back to the Tennis Podcast, where we turn our attention to Spain's victory over Germany now in a decisive doubles. We had Pablo Karenja Busta beating Struffy 6-4, 7-6. We had an ill Alexander Zverev. He wants everyone to know that he was ill and he still beat Jaume Munar 7-6, 7-6. to take it into the decisive doubles where Marcel Grenoes and Pedro Martinez did what's been impossible in Davis Cup. They beat Kevin Kravitz and Tim Putz, the undefeatable German doubles team, 6-2, 3-6, 6-3. And they're the heroes of this tie, really, David, Grenoes and Martinez.

34:20David Law: Yeah, because, you know, they've split those first two rubbers. I mean, I'm very impressed with Pablo Carreño Busta getting that win over Struffy. And then Zverev, you talked about got that narrow win over Munar. And then, yeah, I mean, I was pleased this came out to the doubles, but I really did think it was going to go Germany's way because of that record that you've just spoken about. And then suddenly, Gronoja de Martínez just burst out of the blocks and won the first four games. barely lost a point i mean they were just hitting it it didn't matter what the germans did they were hitting winners off everything and then when that first set six two and then the second set went as kind of dramatically the wrong way for them as the first one went the right way you know they they suddenly couldn't cope with the german combination really who you can see how much they've played with one another so you get into this deciding set and i mean i really thought the Germans would win I thought that this is where they're just taking over they're showing why they are have this incredible record and even though the Spanish team is strong it doesn't feel as cohesive generally you know they don't feel like they feel more like two players who have slightly different skills to one another but not quite the team that the German team were but they found some inspiration in the middle of that set and I mean Grenoy is some of the shots he was hitting I mean he's incredible net player for a for a start I mean his anticipation his interceptions and so forth and then he hit one round the net post shot at sort of ankle height between the net post and the sort of block of the sponsorship block and the imagination to even think of it was astonishing um and and then we when they were sort of trying to serve it out we actually saw a kind of a bit of a choke from the the german team with the overheads and and tim puts had not been he doesn't you know he's got a great serve for a guy of his size you know and i think he's normally got an amazing overhead and they he just fluffed a couple um and and and that was just at the nick of time because spain were wobbling a little bit trying to seal it trying to serve it out and get over the line um but you know sometimes you need a little bit of that don't you and uh i thought that was quite an upset um but just a huge credit to to granoyas and martinez you know you you line them up on the bench and they don't get many questions in the press conferences but they're just quite happy to be a part of the team and play their part when they're asked to come out.

37:07David Law: And like you said at the start, Catherine, they've made themselves heroes today. Isn't that great? You know, to just know that they're the ones. I think that must be a great feeling.

37:20Matt Roberts: We'll never know, but had Alcaraz not been injured and been in this team, he probably would have been picked for the doubles just because he's Carlos Alcaraz. How can you not put him on the court at every possible opportunity? And yet he's not a very good doubles player. I'm not saying that would be the wrong decision to pick Carlos Alcaraz or I'd be strong enough not to in David Ferrer's shoes or that they necessarily would have lost. But on evidence we've seen so far, he's not that good a doubles player. And like it might, I mean, ultimately, again, they would rather have Carlos Alcaraz in tomorrow's Davis Cup final.

38:02Matt Roberts: But in terms of this doubles and winning this tie, I don't know, maybe it didn't hurt.

38:08Catherine Whitaker: Well, look, we've got the case study from a year ago, right? When they did have Martinez on the team, they could have paired him up with Ganoes in the doubles.

38:20Matt Roberts: It's so easy to forget that Martinez was on that team, Matt.

38:23Catherine Whitaker: Yep. Do you remember him in the enormous Rafael Nadal press conference with sort of all of the world's media there? He was just sat on the end.

38:33Matt Roberts: Barely in the camera shot.

38:34Catherine Whitaker: He was fairly conscious, I think, by the end of the press conference.

38:39Matt Roberts: Why did I have to be here? I could have had a lie in.

38:42Catherine Whitaker: Yeah. And yet he was on that team. You know, they didn't use him. And they went out with Carlos Alcraz against, you know, a very, very strong doubles team. and Wesley Coole off that day was superb, but they were playing a very strong doubles team here in Putz and Kravitz. And, you know, it goes to show just how much can change in a year because, you know, Martinez has gone from literally not playing and just being on the sidelines last year to actually being a real hero for them this whole Davis Cup campaign. You know, he played the doubles that started the comeback of Spain's qualifier against Denmark.

39:24Catherine Whitaker: And he didn't play with Glanoyes. Glanoyes wasn't there. He played with Munar. And they won that doubles and ended up winning that tie. And then he's paired with Glanoyes here to win two deciding doubles. And he's actually unbeaten in Davis Cup this year in two singles matches and four doubles matches. He's been so good for Spain. And I just came from the Spanish press conference before coming here to do the podcast. and they said something which I found interesting. It makes total sense. But the key was that they both played well and kind of caught fire at the same time in the same games. It's kind of no good in doubles if only one of you is playing well and winning the points, for example, on return on the deuce side.

40:07Catherine Whitaker: If you then can't win the ad court points as well, you don't really get anywhere. But what happens was that...

40:13Matt Roberts: Or if you're on fire and your partner's fluffing all the volleys.

40:16Catherine Whitaker: Right, exactly. But what happened was it was Martinez on the deuce side. There was a couple of games where he just hit a brilliant return straight away and got them in the game. And then Granollas responded and hit a brilliant return as well. And they were backing each other up really well and matching each other's energy. And I think that was really important for them. And, yeah, it's a hell of a win because, you know, I thought they absolutely needed... I thought they were underdogs in all three matches today, to be honest, Spain. You know, I thought they needed to flip two of them at least.

40:53Catherine Whitaker: And that's what they did. I think maybe Kareña Busta, I sort of wrote him off too much. I think, you know, the sort of class is permanent. Feels like maybe it's come in there. And yes, he hasn't had...

41:07Matt Roberts: He's hit the ball so sweetly today, though. Like a dream.

41:11Catherine Whitaker: Absolutely. Look, he's not had the season he would have wanted. He's had some injuries as well. but he has in the last month or so got a lot of form on the Challenger Tour. He's playing matches again, he's winning matches again and he was brilliant today. A really nice blend of attack when he needed to, also soaking up some of Struve's power. But even after that win, I still felt like they needed to flip one of them because Zverev was favoured over Munar and Kravitz and Pukz with that record. I just felt like they were favoured as well. So for Granoyessen and Martinez to do what they did was pretty special.

41:46Matt Roberts: He had 6-1 in the second set tiebreak, Struff. Jan Lennart, Struff. I mean, Karenja Buster was great, but it was a choke.

42:00Catherine Whitaker: Oh. It was a choke. Totally. Like, it's harsh to say, but you can't sugarcoat that. because what was odd was that he'd been really, I'm going to use the other sort of C word, the opposite word, clutch. He'd been so clutch. Yeah, don't worry, that C word. He'd been so clutch to save a load of Crenio Buster match points just before the tiebreak. He'd hit winners on all of them. And then he got into the tiebreak and he started it impeccably, Struff, just brilliant, attacking tennis. And I thought, right, 6-1, this set is over. We are going to a third and Struf's going to have the momentum. But it wasn't even like there was a turning point other than the fact that he suddenly had five set points.

42:49Catherine Whitaker: But he lost his game and he lost his nerve and he just became an error machine. And Kroenje Buster did well to keep the ball in play and make him play. And I think just the belief grew. As soon as he kept saving set point after set point with Ferrer on the bench there as well, suddenly felt like something was on. But no, Struve, unfortunately, a terrible choke. He lost, yeah, seven points in a row to lose the match, lost his five consecutive set points. And it was brutal because, yeah, it's just a massive choke.

43:26Matt Roberts: OK, I'm glad you've validated my take there, Matt. Appreciate it. OK, that's it for part two. join us in part three for your old favorite punchy predictions.

44:03Matt Roberts: on the work that matters most. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people at servicenow.com.

44:13Catherine Whitaker: Hey guys, it's Joe. It's Kevin. And this is Nick Jonas from Hey Jonas. Do you remember growing up when it felt like every teacher had a favorite student? Everybody knew who it was. Well, I was homeschooled, so I like to think it was me. A class of one. Congratulations. But we're not here to talk about favorite students. We want to talk about a teacher's real favorite. Kleenex tissues. According to TeacherList, Kleenex is the number one facial tissue brand trusted by teachers. Kleenex Ultra Soft tissues are silky soft to help prevent skin irritation. And now you can take them anywhere with Kleenex Snap and Go.

44:44Catherine Whitaker: Between dance, soccer, school events, and everything else kids have going on after school, Kleenex Snap and Go is easy to take along. It fits in backpacks, sports bags, or even in the car. So it's ready for whatever comes next. So do the best thing for your kids and teachers. Stock up on the ultimate classroom favorite. Maybe you'll even become the teacher's favorite parent. We still haven't settled who would be the favorite in our school. We haven't settled who the favorite brother is either. For whatever happens next, grab Kleenex.

45:12Matt Roberts: Welcome back to part three of the tennis podcast, where there's really just one punchy prediction that I want from you both, because there is just, well, there's more than one match, but there is one tie remaining in the 2025 tennis season. Who is winning the Davis Cup tomorrow? And since there is only one tie to predict, I would like individual match predictions from you both as well. David?

45:40David Law: I desperately love it to go to the doubles, but I don't think it will. I think that Berrettini will take out Karina Busta. I think Kabali will take out Jameh Mounar. I don't think they'll be massively one-sided. I think, you know, Karina Buster's shown he can handle a big serve and he's playing beautiful tennis, actually. I still think the sort of presence of Berrettini and the relentlessness of him will hit through him eventually. You know, he's not going to, I don't think, make the sort of errors that Strouff made. And then in the other match, I think you've got two players that are, again, quite similar in Munar and Kabali.

46:24David Law: They both move well. They both hit well from the baseline. They're both going to go for the shots. They're both going to bring loads of emotion. I just think Caballi's that little bit better. And, you know, with the emotion of it all, I think he's going to be at his best. And I don't quite think Munar will stay with him. So I think it'll be Italy in two.

46:44Matt Roberts: Compelling. Yeah. Matt?

46:46Catherine Whitaker: And we have not had a Davis Cup final in the new format or a Billie Jean King Cup final in the new format go to the deciding doubles. They have all been won in the singles. Goodness.

47:03Matt Roberts: That is a shame.

47:04Catherine Whitaker: It is a shame. You know, I would love for this to go to the deciding doubles because I also think it would be compelling. You know, you've got, you would have Granollas and Martinez in form. We've seen that. They've won two matches against good teams, but taking on an experienced double team themselves in Balogli and Bavisori, but they haven't played Balogli and Bavisori all week. They've been sat on the bench. What's their form going to be like? But they'll have the crowd, you know? So it would just be a fascinating cocktail of elements in that deciding doubles. I think I underestimate Munar a lot.

47:45Catherine Whitaker: So I think I'm going to go with some Davis Cup magic and say that we might finally get the doubles. There's a lot of me that agrees with what David's just said.

47:57David Law: You don't underestimate Jameh Munar, Matt. You're always banging on about how good Munar is. You think we underestimate Munar.

48:06Matt Roberts: Is this the point at which we need to declare that Matt has got a citizenship application currently under processing with the Spanish consulate?

48:12David Law: Matt is a Munar guy.

48:14Matt Roberts: And Matt is a playing to the crowd guy. Matt is a guy that predicted Alexei Popperin to do something at the Australian Open during our Melbourne live show just to win some approval. Right. So I'm just letting the audience know, take Matt's prediction under advisement.

48:36Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, I don't want my Spanish citizenship application to fail. having had to ring my lawyer during my interview. I really don't want it to fail on the grounds of underestimating Jaume Munar.

48:53Catherine Whitaker: So you think it's going to the doubles? I haven't overall said who I think is going to win. I think in the doubles, I think Italy might take it, which maybe makes no logical sense, because if it goes to the doubles, you've got Granollas and Martinez there in form. I just think Favisori is unbelievable.

49:11Matt Roberts: We've seen this year and doubt Andrea Vavasori, though, can we?

49:16David Law: I'd love to see Vavasori and Granoyas against one another. Imagine those two. Yeah, I guess overall I'm going with Italy and the power in that stadium.

49:30Catherine Whitaker: So I do think Italy will win.

49:33Matt Roberts: And does that, maybe this is a discussion for tomorrow in our rap show, But would that kind of raise integrity issues for you? The fact that, you know, they are guaranteed to be hosting this thing for three years. They don't have to qualify. They get an automatic pass through to the finals because they are the hosts. And I understand that you want the hosts in the final. But integrity of the competition wise, it's not ideal. And it is a massive advantage to play this thing at home.

50:03Catherine Whitaker: Yeah. Like, I really don't think there's that much of a conversation to be had about that. I think that is absolutely an issue. I felt it when it was in Spain. OK, Spain didn't take advantage of it. But yes, it's definitely an issue for sure.

50:22Matt Roberts: It would be weird that, again, maybe this is a discussion for tomorrow if this eventuality plays out. But it'd be a very weird thing for Vavasori and Boleli to win that trophy having never had the opportunity to play. You know, it's not like they weren't picked. It's not like they played and lost, but still made a contribution. They just never even got the chance to factor in. I don't know, I just think that's a weird place to be.

50:57Catherine Whitaker: It is, again, another potential issue with the format, right? where doubles players come to the event and they can not play. You know, they can be here all week and not play. And, you know, the doubles is either the most important thing or it's not played at all. And that dynamic, you know, maybe you love that, but it is a bit of a problem like for the players, I think, you know, just coming here, preparing, and just maybe not even getting a chance to take to the court. That must be really, really unsatisfactory, I think.

51:36Matt Roberts: And from another point of view, the scenario where, you know, let's say it goes to the siding doubles tomorrow and it ends up hurting Italy that they've won through to the finals so easily without needing their doubles because it means that their doubles team are coming in cold and haven't had the chance to play. Do we want that to be a decisive factor in these matches? I don't know. Maybe we save that discussion for tomorrow once we know how this thing plays out. Okay, so everyone's going Italy. I think I'm going Italy.

52:10David Law: Do you think we're going to get doubles, Catherine?

52:12Matt Roberts: Both made very compelling cases. I back Berrettini, I really do. I think he's not letting this thing go. I just think Berrettini is a force of nature in Bologna. this week. I agree with Matt that Munar is the one if one's going to flip. It's Munar. But I'm a Caballi guy now, David.

52:38David Law: Yeah, you said cut me open. I bleed Caballi.

52:41Matt Roberts: Cut me and I bleed Caballi. You've always said that. So I'm going with David's prediction. I think sadly this isn't going to the doubles. I think Italy might do it in the two singles. but Spain won't even consider me for citizenship. So languishing with my Brexit passport. Right. We will be back with a live podcast at the end of it all. Plan A is for that podcast to be at 8pm. But tennis gods laugh at Plan A. So please keep across our social channels, sign up to our newsletter. We will send out alerts notifying you. when we know what time the live show will be. Subscribe to our YouTube channel and you'll get an alert when we're going live as well.

53:30Matt Roberts: That is the best way to make sure you know when our live show is coming tomorrow. But as close to eight o 'clock as we can, basically tennis permitting. Thank you, tennis. When's it all start?

53:44David Law: It's not an early start like it was today, is it?

53:47Catherine Whitaker: It's an in-between start. It's a three o 'clock local rather than four or twelve, which it's been every other day. They're really keeping us on our toes with the start times. Three o 'clock local is the start time.

54:01Matt Roberts: So if our predictions are right, David, then 8pm could happen. But if Matt's right, then 8pm starts to feel like a slightly more distant dream.

54:11Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, if we go to the doubles, it's a late night live show. Yeah.

54:16Matt Roberts: Yeah, we'll put the link to the newsletter in the show notes. Subscribe to our Instagram. Subscribe to our YouTube. Do all the things. And that's the best way to be informed. And we'll be back to talk about all of it with a live show tomorrow to wrap the 2025 season. Of course, we've got more podcasts. It doesn't mean that the tennis podcast wraps the 2025 season. But in terms of live tennis to talk about, that will be it for a full five weeks, folks. Less if you count the next-gen finals, which I'm not sure if anybody does, but there you go. Don't forget, you can keep up to date with the Davis Cup finals on the Davis Cup Instagram, TikTok and X.

55:01Matt Roberts: You can sign up to the free official Davis Cup newsletter at daviscup.com and you can follow all the action on the newly updated World Cup of Tennis app, which brings together the Davis Cup and Billie Jean King Cup by GameBridge. Search World Cup of Tennis on the App Store or Play Store to download for free. Thank you to our mascots. Hello, Phoebe, Maisie and Roger. Hello to our top folks and executive producers, Greg, Chris and Jeff. Where do we stand on shout outs tonight, Matt?

55:32Catherine Whitaker: I can do them if you'd like me to.

55:35Matt Roberts: Huge news. Yes, please.

55:38Catherine Whitaker: Pumped. Great. So these are the shout outs that were meant to be on the last show, but I'm doing them now. And we have Lisa Toll from Clifton Park, New York.

55:51Matt Roberts: Ah, hello, Lisa.

55:54Catherine Whitaker: Like Lisa Raymond. Lisa Raymond declined for the Tennis Hall of Fame, I saw this week. Ben Rothenberg published a really interesting graphic

56:07Matt Roberts: about all the players that had been put forward but not voted in. It's a far more brutal system than I realised.

56:16David Law: Sterling worked that by Ben, wasn't it?

56:18Matt Roberts: It really was impressive.

56:19David Law: You don't know that stuff.

56:21Matt Roberts: The number of people that had been put forward consecutive years, like some people three consecutive years and rejected three consecutive years. Brutal. Sorry, Lisa Raymond. Any other tennis Leases that haven't been rejected by the International Tennis Hall of Fame?

56:39David Law: Our Lisa is not being rejected as a friend and a shout-out.

56:42Matt Roberts: Very much accepted

56:44Catherine Whitaker: And our Lisa is an identical twin And says I can completely relate To the Bryan brothers Because I played with my sister And being a twin is a game changer It totally throws off your opponents

56:57Matt Roberts: I wonder if one's a lefty Or one's a righty They got in last year didn't they

57:02David Law: They got in the Hall of Fame The Brines I always have so many questions

57:08Matt Roberts: For identical twins

57:11David Law: But they'd be good at traitors

57:13Matt Roberts: What a fascinating Way to go through the world Knowing that there's an identical Another version of you But there's also not Like wild Science is wild Lisa Thank you

57:29Catherine Whitaker: Next we have Alan Al Who says Al pronounced as in Ouch like you hurt yourself

57:36Matt Roberts: It's really helpful Alan

57:39Catherine Whitaker: Cheers Alan Alan from Los Angeles

57:42Matt Roberts: Oh an American flavour on today's show

57:47David Law: Like the late great Alan Mills

57:50Matt Roberts: Very good David Lifting the covers his autobiography The referee of Wimbledon for so many years Very good Thanks Alan I just started watching a show called I Love LA There you go that's my LA connection Are you good? Hope home to Pamela Howard-Schriver. I'm enjoying it. I think you would hate it. Oh. So it's not a recommendation. Why would I hate it? But I do think it's good. It's not. I don't think it's your genre. We'll pick this up later. Look up the blurb and you tell me if you think it's something that would interest you.

58:27David Law: Sometimes I like the stuff you like. Sometimes I don't.

58:32Matt Roberts: Yes. I think this would be an example of the latter. Anyway.

58:36Catherine Whitaker: Okay. Good to know.

58:37Matt Roberts: Alan, thank you.

58:40Catherine Whitaker: And finally, we have Mark Latimore from Derby in the UK, but originally from Reading.

58:49Matt Roberts: Reading Berkshire, home of the Royals?

58:52Catherine Whitaker: Correct. Also a long-suffering Reading fan, Mark says. Oh, Mark.

58:59Matt Roberts: One all draw at home to Rotherham today. It's not glamour. It's not glamour down there in League One.

59:07David Law: At least you've got a good tennis name like Mark Woodford, Philippouces. Knowles. Knowles.

59:14Matt Roberts: Also rejected by the International Tennis Hall of Fame, I think.

59:18David Law: Was he? I know Daniel Nestor was.

59:20Matt Roberts: Oh, maybe it was Nestor. Yeah. And then maybe they thought we won't try with Knowles.

59:25David Law: Nestor more than once, according to Ben's grid. Oh, brutal. Yeah, the X is just brutal, isn't it? So, so, so. a Reading person.

59:38Matt Roberts: Is that the first have we had Reading people before?

59:41David Law: Yes. Yes. Oh yes. People are very pleased when they can tell you that they're

59:47Matt Roberts: from Reading.

59:48David Law: Reading people.

59:51Matt Roberts: Let me know Mark.

59:52David Law: Cheers Mark.

59:54Matt Roberts: Mark, Alan, Lisa. Thank you ever so much for being friends with the Tennis Podcast. Thank you all for listening. We are part of the Athletic Podcast Network. We will be back tomorrow with a live show at the end of the Davis Cup final between Spain and Italy. We'll speak to you then.

1:00:27David Law: As a small business owner, you're the CEO, the marketing team, and the customer service rep all at once. I was recently talking to a shop owner who told me their worst nightmare isn't a slow day, it's the vanishing act. It's that moment you're inches away from a deadline and the Wi-Fi just disappears. We've all felt that pit in our stomach when the connection flares up right when it matters most. Your business is only as strong as your connection. AT &T Business is the reliable provider built for that exact brand of hustle, so you can stay focused on the work that builds your legacy. Powered by AT &T Business.

1:01:02David Law: Built to work. Get AT &T Business at business.att.com.

1:01:07Catherine Whitaker: Hi all, this is Kim and Penn Holderness from Laugh Lines.

1:01:10David Law: Summer is here, which means it's officially travel season.

1:01:13Catherine Whitaker: And when you're out there making plans, you need somewhere reliable to stay.

1:01:17David Law: That's why Best Western is such a solid option.

1:01:19Catherine Whitaker: This summer, get 1 ,000 bonus points and a chance to win 250 ,000 bonus points.

1:01:24David Law: So wherever you're headed, make it count with this limited time offer.

1:01:27Catherine Whitaker: Life's a trip. Make the most of it at bestwestern.com.

1:01:30David Law: No additional purchase necessary for sweeps. See bonus points, T's and C's and sweeps rules for details and visit bestwestern.com for complete terms and conditions.